Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tebryn14 Sep 04, 2004 15:19:11	Hello. I am looking for info on this particularly vexing demon lady. I own Hellbound, Guide to Hell, Planes of Conflict, and Faces of Evil, so I have the info from those sources. But they don't really addess what she is the demon lady of, or provide any really specific info about her history and such. I know that as a mystery, info won't be abound, but anything would be helpful. I PM's Kuje about this, and he said that perhaps some of the old Greyhawk material might have something on her. I figured posting here would be the best way to address that. Are there any other sources other than those I own (and whatever Greyhawk sources may speak of Pale Night) that provide specific info on Demon Lord and Archfiends? Also, I am looking for info or speculation of the "superior" of the Baernaloths. Shemmy once made reference (which may have been speculation) about a being the the Baerns talked about as the ultimate evil, or something like that.
#2 sildatorak Sep 04, 2004 15:55:43	Also, I am looking for info or speculation of the "superior" of the Baernaloths. Shemmy once made reference (which may have been speculation) about a being the the Baerns talked about as the ultimate evil, or something like that. Well, according to the Baern, they don't serve something which they refer to as "the ultimate evil." They serve ultimate evil. It may be that this is the same force venerated by those few clerics who serve the general idea of evil or it may be something even more frightening.
#3 kuje31 Sep 04, 2004 17:50:06	Yeah, sorry I wasn't more help. I looked through Planes of Chaos but didn't see her. I think the only Planescape material is in Fiends..... So that was why I mentioned the Greyhawk stuff might have more...... But I don't own any old Greyhawk stuff.
#4 ripvanwormer Sep 05, 2004 14:20:09	Hello. I am looking for info on this particularly vexing demon lady. I own Hellbound, Guide to Hell, Planes of Conflict, and Faces of Evil, so I have the info from those sources. But they don't really addess what she is the demon lady of She, and her connection to Graz'zt, were new to Faces of Evil. The Greyhawk stuff says nothing about Graz'zt's parentage beyond the name of his demonic species (abat-dolor). Abyssal rulers, like Baatific ones, don't need to be the patron of anything. She's an ancient, scheming force who often takes Abyssal lords as her consort. She's beyond such things as specific portfolios like gods have. Graz'zt isn't really the lord of anything either - yeah, I know people call him the Lord of Shadows, but he really has no particular focus on shadows or lust or conquest or intrigue or magic like Juiblex is lord of oozes or Yeenoghu is the lord of carrion eaters. Like his mother, he's a personality, not a patron of some specific abstract concept. If you look at Book Two of Milton's Paradise Lost, there's a dramatic description of the court of Chaos in the Abyss. Chaos is personified as an entity and his consort is Ancient Night. Other courtiers include Orcus and Demogorgon. Chaos and Night were taken by Milton from Hesiod's geneology of the Greek gods, but here they appear as Abyssal rulers, so I assume that Chaos (connection with the Krynnish god Ionthas, Father of All and Nothing, unknown) was Pale Night's first consort, and their children were Rumor, Chance, Tumult, Confusion, and Discord of the thousand mouths, all of whom Milton also mentions. It's tempting to say that Pale Night is simply the Abyssal lady of night, but that's an oversimplification. If that were true, she'd be Dark Night. Instead, she's a paradox - something far more complex, night bleached into invisibility. She is a subtle creature, too devious to try to rule the Abyss openly, instead working through others as mother and *****. After leaving the court of Lord Chaos, Pale Night took up with another lord, one dark and shadowy if the resulting children are any indication. Graz'zt, Lupercio, and Rhyxali (from the Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement) all share a dark, shadowy appearance that marks them as full siblings. Graz'zt is the Lord of Shadows, a cunning strategist, master of intrigue and dark magic, patron of sorcerers, infamous seducer, cunning liar, and would-be prince of all the Abyss. He is also the demon lord who understands humanity best, and perhaps has the most in common with them, although he has also at times been a patron of dark elves. Lupercio is the Strength of Darkness, vast and incomprehensible. Rhyxali is the Princess of Shadows, a gatherer of rumors, trader of knowledge and souls, and ruler of shadow fiends. I've named their father Ades, again taking inspiration from John Milton. At some time Pale Night birthed Vucerik of Chains. It has been suggested that Vucerik's father was a kyton, but that seems too obvious to me, as well as being unlikely, not to mention unworthy of such an august demon lady. Instead I've suggested J'sald Xerix, an imprisoned lord of nightmare wishes from the old text-based Netbook of the Abyss. Her current consort is said to be Baphomet. What spawn, if any, those two have produced is unrevealed. Dicefreaks has a nice write-up of Pale Night, which suggests she is now with Pazuzu. Also, I am looking for info or speculation of the "superior" of the Baernaloths. Shemmy once made reference (which may have been speculation) about a being the the Baerns talked about as the ultimate evil, or something like that. I see them as a council, acting in accord with one another. Something of a profane democracy, but one that does not stoop to anything as mundane as voting. Each instead takes inspiration from the Gray Waste, from the pain and madness and terrible hunger the plane manifests. That is the true ultimate evil. The only major disagreement among the baernaloths was Apomps' creation of the gehreleths. I think Apomps' banishment wasn't immediate - first the baernaloths would have waited to see if the Three-Sided One's horrific abortions of their plans would yet be useful. It was only with the gehreleths' failure of the baernaloths' tests that the race and their creator was cast into Carceri.
#5 tebryn14 Sep 05, 2004 14:41:40	Sorry, but wasn't it Lupercio that Pale Night spawned? He is the strength of darkness personified, not Eldanoth. I certainly like the ideas you presented, but about the idea of a "Lord Chaos", I wonder how much of it is speculation (drawn from the Milton, of course), and how much was drawn directly from first and second edition text? Who is this "imprisoned lord of nightmares"? Again, speculation or text based? I do remember reading something, somewhere, about a hidden layer of the Abyss, supposedly the "last" one, ruled by a frighteningly remote being.
#6 ripvanwormer Sep 05, 2004 15:40:35	Sorry, but wasn't it Lupercio that Pale Night spawned? He is the strength of darkness personified, not Eldanoth. Lupercio, of the Slugbed. You're right, of course. That's what I get for typing things off the top of my head. Now I'm going to have to go back and edit that. I certainly like the ideas you presented, but about the idea of a "Lord Chaos", I wonder how much of it is speculation (drawn from the Milton, of course), and how much was drawn directly from first and second edition text? It's entirely speculation. Who is this "imprisoned lord of nightmares"? Again, speculation or text based? I do remember reading something, somewhere, about a hidden layer of the Abyss, supposedly the "last" one, ruled by a frighteningly remote being. Entirely speculative.
#7 sildatorak Sep 05, 2004 18:03:45	It's entirely speculation. Entirely speculative. And that's why Rip rocks! Who needs a "definitive" meaning anyway? The whole multiverse is just speculation.
#8 Shemeska_the_Marauder Sep 07, 2004 3:55:33	Also, I am looking for info or speculation of the "superior" of the Baernaloths. Shemmy once made reference (which may have been speculation) about a being the the Baerns talked about as the ultimate evil, or something like that. Exactly as Sildatorak said. They don't serve any being, they serve abstract evil 'itself'. They claim to have been the first chosen servants of evil itself as a faceless, formless concept. Anything beyond that is speculation, but fun speculation. As far as Rip seeing them as almost a 'profane democracy' I've lately been playing around with the politics and history of the Baernaloths in my own campaign, rotating mostly around the 'organized' group of them known as The Demented. The way most of the Baern, aside from that group of 'mad' Baernaloths, are described they tend to be isolated, unique individuals rather than having any real need to work together. Perhaps after they handed power over to the Ultroloths, what coordination they had dissolved, at least perhaps till their original plans come to some level of fruition. These past two or three weeks I played around with some of the Baernaloths IMC that were not members of the The Demented, and are either dead or 'departed', their own works supplanted or taken over by those of their kin in The Demented. I dropped a few names, made some fairly vague hints about some internal conflict a few thousand years prior between these two groups of Baernaloths, etc. All revolved around a place in the depths of Negative Energy plane known as 'Eternity's Doorstep' which I'll likely write up in some more detail cause I had fun with it.
#9 the_serge7 Sep 07, 2004 14:20:16	Pale Night by Dark Wolf97 of Dicefreaks is considered an official DF personality. Even if you don't care for the stats, we believe that the flavor's pretty good. Enjoy!