I'm wondering what features of the setting people would want maintained, and which are sacred and shouldn't be touched.
For example, while I know they're a somewhat integral feature of the setting, I've always found the concept of the crystal spheres to be rather goofy at best. Having all planetary systems contained within crystaline dyson spheres is interesting, but seems counter to the idea I have in my head of space adventure. Thus, I'd be more apt to ignore their existance in updating the campaign setting.
The concept of crystal sphere is also something I've had a bit of a problem with, although I do like the flow. Perhaps replace crystal sphere with normal space, and make the flow a hyperspace type place that Spelljamming ships must enter to move between worlds. Works just as well if you don't mind the change.
This is what I have been thinking about for my Mystara campaign. I have now gradually become more and more convinced that I could use a modified version of SJ with Mystara. (Once I realized I could bring in SJ without getting drawn into the cosmologies of FR, GH, DL ect, it was much easier). Now, IMC the crystal spheres still exist, but they are invisible, seeing through them reveals normal space. However, when passing through this invisible barrier on certain locations, rather than passing on towards normal space you pass into the flow. You will need some knowledge of astrology to figure out where the invisible gates to the flow will appear. My original idea was that the gates were where the shadows of the planets would have been had not the Sphere been invisible.
Spelljammer Helms is just one of many ways on which Mystaran vessels are propelled. Helms are rare, mainly found among the Alphatians who used Spelljammer ships in their exodus to Mystara 2000 years ago.
As I said, the other official TSR worlds don't exist IMC, but I'll probably use the SJ specific cultures. Some of those races may even have settled within Mystara's solar system.
Håvard
That was my thoughts as well. The phlogiston would be sort of plane accesible only through spelljamming technology/magic, used to cut short the distances for interplanetary travel.
That is how I do it. None of that crystal sphere crap. Though there are "naturally" occuring portals to the flow at a distance from the primary where you would normally find the shell (twice the distance from the primary to the furthest planet, I think).
Air envelopes and gravity planes are a product of helm (major) magic, not a "every object has it's own gravity" thing. Typically the gravity plane aligns with the base of the helm. Special materials and ship construction techniques can be used to bend the gravity plane (as in a scorpion ship). A minor helm only provides movement. Major and minor helms have the same speed. A ship's speed is determined by how many spell levels (or whatever) are put into it per time increment.
A spellcaster doesn't loose all his spells just by attuning to the helm. Attuning requires contact, usually sitting but not always. Attunement isn't lost immediately with loss of contact, but the pilot can't change corse or accelerate. Options: divine magic can't power helms, and psionic helms can only be minor (githyanki astral ships).
Do away with Hull Points. Determine HP and Hardness by material and thickness. A ship's base AC is determined by its size, but can be modified by armor and maneuverability. Include an optional system for dividing the ship into compartments, each with its own AC and HP, so it can be damaged by location.
Optional movement can be more detailed. The ship's movement can be divided among a few initiative tics, but its speed and direction can only be changed on or after the pilot's initiative. The ship's maneuverability and the pilot's skill determine how many changes can be made per turn.
Don't use hexes, stick with squares.
hmm.. haven't oogled ship-to-ship combat in 3e or 3.5 yet... but i know there are oodles of 'em out there...
all helms should hold air and gravity... either that or there should be other ways to set ships up with it.. .
erhaps a basic air envelope and gravity is part of an enchantment put on the ship when it's built, and needs to be renewed every decade or so...
and the major helms simply enhance the enchantment to make the air stay fresh longer...
without this maintaining of air, you can't really explore "sunken" ships, or steal helms and maroon people with no propulsion, but the chance to survive...
back when i played, we added rules for "cosmic winds" which the sails of jamming ships could use for slow movement (or to speed up a helm) if they had the rigging for it...
as for the spheres...
never really used 'em that much...
playing of the cosmic wind bit...
such winds might be produced by some of the larger openings in the "spheres" (and thus giving a common way to pass out of them by sailing upwind...)
leaving the spheres themselves unnotable would always be nice...
you could say that the "sphere" is a range of influence of the primary where these openings to the flow might occur...
so one does not need to go into the phlogiston to travel world-to-world, but doing so makes the passage quicker...
That is how I do it. None of that crystal sphere crap. Though there are "naturally" occuring portals to the flow at a distance from the primary where you would normally find the shell (twice the distance from the primary to the furthest planet, I think).
Air envelopes and gravity planes are a product of helm (major) magic, not a "every object has it's own gravity" thing. Typically the gravity plane aligns with the base of the helm. Special materials and ship construction techniques can be used to bend the gravity plane (as in a scorpion ship). A minor helm only provides movement. Major and minor helms have the same speed. A ship's speed is determined by how many spell levels (or whatever) are put into it per time increment.
A spellcaster doesn't loose all his spells just by attuning to the helm. Attuning requires contact, usually sitting but not always. Attunement isn't lost immediately with loss of contact, but the pilot can't change corse or accelerate. Options: divine magic can't power helms, and psionic helms can only be minor (githyanki astral ships).
Do away with Hull Points. Determine HP and Hardness by material and thickness. A ship's base AC is determined by its size, but can be modified by armor and maneuverability. Include an optional system for dividing the ship into compartments, each with its own AC and HP, so it can be damaged by location.
Optional movement can be more detailed. The ship's movement can be divided among a few initiative tics, but its speed and direction can only be changed on or after the pilot's initiative. The ship's maneuverability and the pilot's skill determine how many changes can be made per turn.
Don't use hexes, stick with squares.
A lot of that is almost exactly what I've been thinking and working upon.
Still not sure what to do with the various spellcasting classes and helms without making it too crunchy. I'd like for all spellcasters to be able to use a helm, though obviously a Bard shouldn't be powering it as much as a Wizard.
Also, leaving the air envelope of a ship; maybe requiring a character to have some minor magical item on them to keep from dying right quick from exposure or suffocation.
Alternately, if you *do* want to use the other campaign worlds but find the crystal spheres silly, you could have the other worlds on alternate prime material planes only accessible through the phlogiston, making the phlogiston a transitive plane that connects all the variant primes.
My original idea was that the gates were where the shadows of the planets would have been had not the Sphere been invisible.
Nice!
all helms should hold air and gravity... either that or there should be other ways to set ships up with it...
You might find the devices on this page helpful.
(I especially like the rules for random mishaps with the atmospheric refresher :D)Wyvern
This is what I have been thinking about for my Mystara campaign. I have now gradually become more and more convinced that I could use a modified version of SJ with Mystara. (Once I realized I could bring in SJ without getting drawn into the cosmologies of FR, GH, DL ect, it was much easier). Now, IMC the crystal spheres still exist, but they are invisible, seeing through them reveals normal space. However, when passing through this invisible barrier on certain locations, rather than passing on towards normal space you pass into the flow. You will need some knowledge of astrology to figure out where the invisible gates to the flow will appear. My original idea was that the gates were where the shadows of the planets would have been had not the Sphere been invisible.
You can find a lot of stuff by searching for Mystaraspace on Google.
Lately I've been toying with the idea of unofficially updating SpellJammer to d20 for giggles.
A Spelljammer 3e conversion is already being done on Beyond the Moons. Why not join in with that effort instead of starting another one.
I'm wondering what features of the setting people would want maintained, and which are sacred and shouldn't be touched.
I suspect that everyone has a slightly different idea of what they would want to drop from Spelljammer.
For example, while I know they're a somewhat integral feature of the setting, I've always found the concept of the crystal spheres to be rather goofy at best. Having all planetary systems contained within crystaline dyson spheres is interesting, but seems counter to the idea I have in my head of space adventure. Thus, I'd be more apt to ignore their existance in updating the campaign setting.
I believe that the purpose of the crystal spheres is to keep the separate Alternate Prime Material Planes from turning into one big Prime Material Plane.
If you want to ditch the crystal spheres then you need to replace them with another method of separating the planes (unless you are ditching planar travel as well). If you don't do this then you will be changing the established physics of D&D.
By the way crystal spheres are actually based on real mythology as people used to think that the planets and stars were on invisible crystal spheres that all were surrounding the Earth. I think that is why the guy put them in. Remember it was supposed to be a fantasy setting, not a real depiction of space.
If you start changing a lot of things you will need to think about game balance a lot.
Alternatively, you could look at Arcanum of the Stars as that website seems to have already done a lot of the stuff that you have talked about.
A Spelljammer 3e conversion is already being done on Beyond the Moons. Why not join in with that effort instead of starting another one.
Two reasons:
1. Their website is ugly. Superficial, yes, but I can admit it.
2. I'm a control freak.
I suspect that everyone has a slightly different idea of what they would want to drop from Spelljammer.
That seems likely, but I just wanted to get a general consensus of the people here, so that I'd know if my ideas for altering the setting would appeal to more then just myself.
If you want to ditch the crystal spheres then you need to replace them with another method of separating the planes (unless you are ditching planar travel as well). If you don't do this then you will be changing the established physics of D&D.
I was under the impression that the purpose of the crystal spheres was to keep the phlogiston out of wildspace and vice versa. Nothing to do with planar travel.
In fact, treating the flow as some sort of subplane for accesible through use of 'jammers for quick travel between solar systems is more akin to planar travel then the orignal concept, as I understand it.
By the way crystal spheres are actually based on real mythology as people used to think that the planets and stars were on invisible crystal spheres that all were surrounding the Earth. I think that is why the guy put them in. Remember it was supposed to be a fantasy setting, not a real depiction of space.
Granted, but while being based on the fantastical ideas of our forefathers, it's difficult to bend a modern thinking mind around such an idea. And yes I know the ability to accept dragons and the like but not crystal spheres is selective suspension of disblief.
The crystal spheres are stated as having been put in as a means of explaining why Torril, Krynn and Oreth have differant constellations. To my mind, this is unnecessary as constellations in differant parts of space, will be differant. It's all a matter of perspective.
If you start changing a lot of things you will need to think about game balance a lot.
Yup.
Alternatively, you could look at Arcanum of the Stars as that website seems to have already done a lot of the stuff that you have talked about.
Looking at that website hurts my eyeballs.
The crystal spheres are stated as having been put in as a means of explaining why Torril, Krynn and Oreth have differant constellations. To my mind, this is unnecessary as constellations in differant parts of space, will be differant. It's all a matter of perspective.
Actually if that were all it was, they wouldn't have needed the crystal spheres. The problems is with the Dragonlance setting the constellations represent each of the gods and literally move to different locations depending on how powerful each god is at the moment. Also, if a god dies, such as Takhisis did at the end of the War of Souls, their constellation dissappears. You can see how this would cause havoc if other campaign worlds like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms had to deal with Krynn's ever-changing star patterns. Thus, the crystal spheres were invented as a means of keeping each game world intact *and* on one prime plane.
The "one prime material plane" conceit, combined with Krynn's shifting constellations, is really what necessitated the crystal spheres. If you use the 3rd edition cosmology where each campaign world is on a different prime plane, then the crystal spheres are no longer necessary, because Krynn and its constellations would exist in a different universe than Oerth or Toril.
SJ is definitely a labor of love. As in, we love this game, but it's a pain in the ass. Mainly because we all have our own views on how things should be. Our opinions are tainted on many many things. Like how much you like Star Trek (hate it), Star Wars (love it, well most of it), Alternity (oh yeah, its ship construction and combat system never failed me), etc.
How many of you were ****** after reading Shadow of the Spider Moon? I understan the design constraints, mainly page count, which is why I haven't fire bombed Andy's place... Oh the pain of that article. By Reorx's beard, please whipe it from my mind.
I believe that the purpose of the crystal spheres is to keep the separate Alternate Prime Material Planes from turning into one big Prime Material Plane.
If you want to ditch the crystal spheres then you need to replace them with another method of separating the planes (unless you are ditching planar travel as well). If you don't do this then you will be changing the established physics of D&D.
I don't follow your logic here. I don't think that the concept of "alternate" prime material planes was ever a significant part of AD&D2e; the different worlds (Krynn, Oerth, Toril, etc.) and their crystal spheres were all considered to be part on the same plane, as was the phlogiston. I'm not sure what "established physics of D&D" you think is violated by using a more true-to-real-life astronomical model.
By the way crystal spheres are actually based on real mythology as people used to think that the planets and stars were on invisible crystal spheres that all were surrounding the Earth.
Actually, mythology had nothing to do with it. Mythology tended to view the stars and planets as manifestations of the gods. The crystal sphere was a "scientific" theory thought up by Aristotle, I believe, and disproved by Galileo when he observed the moons of Jupiter through his telescope (their orbits would have pierced the supposedly indestructible sphere that Jupiter was fixed to).
Wyvern
Actually if that were all it was, they wouldn't have needed the crystal spheres. The problems is with the Dragonlance setting the constellations represent each of the gods and literally move to different locations depending on how powerful each god is at the moment. Also, if a god dies, such as Takhisis did at the end of the War of Souls, their constellation dissappears. You can see how this would cause havoc if other campaign worlds like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms had to deal with Krynn's ever-changing star patterns. Thus, the crystal spheres were invented as a means of keeping each game world intact *and* on one prime plane.
Ah, I was unaware of that--likely because I've never been a fan of Dragonlance. Thanks for the info. It's certinally something to think about.
There are two other factors that will determine if I can hit the target: the precision of the weapon and the velocity of the projectile. In the simplest of terms, it's going to be easier to aim the smaller weapon, and the bigger weapon is going to throw the projectile faster. Speed matters, because you don't have to lead the target as much. So, I'm going to say that these two factors offset each other, and the bigger problem is how well I can see my target.
I agree with the standard rules that handheld weapons (bow and firearms) can't be fired at something not in the same square.
*note: In a previous post I opted to replace hexes with squares, so sub hexes for squares it that's your preference.
again... the cosmic wind thing could account for why ranges are limited...
otherwise...
yeah, it's gona be small,
so make hexes/squares smaller...
look into what ship-to-ship combat systems already exists and mod those...
personally, i'd stay with treating it mostly as normal ship-to-ship combat as most races are prolly still land-oriented and not adjusted to 3d combat...
Two reasons:
1. Their website is ugly. Superficial, yes, but I can admit it.
2. I'm a control freak.
I'd have to agree with number 2. for myself as well. I always find it difficult to be involved with any project, unless it is MY project, using MY ideas, and I have the final decision over everything.
Can't agree with 1. as I've just realised that some of my work is actually on that site...
Can't agree with 1. as I've just realised that some of my work is actually on that site...
I'm not talking about the content on the site, but rather the site itself. The awkward layout, and poor design does not make me want to browse the site long enough to even find out what the quality of the content is.
Simplify, simplify.
1. Their website is ugly. Superficial, yes, but I can admit it.
2. I'm a control freak.
3. Despite claims there that the page has been updated recently I haven't seen anything substantial added there since the last time I looked several years ago. It may be an ongoing project but it's not going anywhere useful at any kind of useful speed or it would have GOTTEN somewhere by now.
I was under the impression that the purpose of the crystal spheres was to keep the phlogiston out of wildspace and vice versa. Nothing to do with planar travel.
It's a chicken-and-egg thing to a fair extent.
First, all the contents of the crystal spheres are supposedly still in the same prime material plane (and not ALTERNATE prime material planes). The spheres do seperate wildspace and the flow - but the flow is only necessary as a campaign-world design element to move between the spheres. The spheres exist largely to isolate ALREADY EXISTING game worlds like Krynn, Toril, and Oerth from each other. Those game-setting specific solar systems can then keep their particular celestial mechanics and points of reference without interference from other areas. But if you are already COMBINING those game worlds into a "single" over-arching Spelljammer setting you no longer need or WANT to isolate them from each other. In particular, the sheer staggering lengths of time that the Spelljammer rules enforce for trying to move from one sphere to another makes doing so utterly impractical in a "normal" Spelljammer game.
You don't need spheres. Because of the travel times they require you don't WANT spheres. You don't necessarily then need the phlogiston - but since the solar systems are still going to be seperated by gawdawful distances it works well if you can keep it on as a "superhighway" to move QUICKLY between solar systems. The Phlogiston is otherwise a pointless void - it is not a place you want to ever go TO - just someplace you go THROUGH as briefly as possible when on your way to somewhere else.
So the phlogiston has everything to do with travel - just not "planar" travel as D&D would otherwise define it.
Looking at that website hurts my eyeballs.
And that one HASN'T been updated since 2002.
I don't follow your logic here. I don't think that the concept of "alternate" prime material planes was ever a significant part of AD&D2e; the different worlds (Krynn, Oerth, Toril, etc.) and their crystal spheres were all considered to be part on the same plane, as was the phlogiston. I'm not sure what "established physics of D&D" you think is violated by using a more true-to-real-life astronomical model.
The concept of the "polyverse" being made up of alternate prime material planes was introduced in the 1st edition. See Manual of the Planes P117.
And Krynn, Oerth and Toril do need to be in different planes because the influence of the gods stretches throughout the prime material plane. So clerics of the gods of Krynn gain spells throughout Krynnspace, but don't necessarily gain spells in Realmspace.
If you get rid of the spheres/alternate prime material planes then clerics gain spells everywhere. This brings in another change. I think that the crystal spheres solve a lot of problems with D&D in space. If you want to get rid of them then you need to hunt out and solve all these problems first.
(Personally I like the crystal spheres, so I won't use sphere-free rules, but good luck doing them.)
First, all the contents of the crystal spheres are supposedly still in the same prime material plane (and not ALTERNATE prime material planes).
Please can you quote your source for this information, because I've always believed the opposite to be true.
The concept of the "polyverse" being made up of alternate prime material planes was introduced in the 1st edition. See Manual of the Planes P117.
I'm afraid I can't, since I don't have that book. In any case, however, I still wonder if it's possible that was Spelljammer changed things. Alas, my SJ books are in storage on another continent right now, so I can't search for specific references to confirm or refute that possibility.
And Krynn, Oerth and Toril do need to be in different planes because the influence of the gods stretches throughout the prime material plane. So clerics of the gods of Krynn gain spells throughout Krynnspace, but don't necessarily gain spells in Realmspace.
If you get rid of the spheres/alternate prime material planes then clerics gain spells everywhere. This brings in another change. I think that the crystal spheres solve a lot of problems with D&D in space. If you want to get rid of them then you need to hunt out and solve all these problems first.
I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I believe there's real-life precedent for the concept of geographically-limited deities, and certainly it's within the realm of possibility for a fantasy setting, even on the same planet.
Wyvern
If you get rid of the spheres/alternate prime material planes then clerics gain spells everywhere.
Only if I allow them to, which I would, and did, even when we had crystal spheres.
If you get rid of the spheres/alternate prime material planes then clerics gain spells everywhere.
Only if I allow them to, which I would, and did, even when we had crystal spheres.
I don't see anything that states that different worlds are on alternate material planes. SJ doesn't talk at all about travelling planes.
if you go with the realms series, the whole Shadowdale trillogy i think has the War of Avatars/Gods
which ends when a "bigger god" steps in and resets the place back to how it's supposed to be...
say there's a higherarchy of gods.. .
the "local gods" that mortals get to play with in their sphere,
and then the "upper eschelon gods" what manage magic between the spheres...
(even the later krynn books kinda suggest this, what with the gods leaving, and their priests loosing power... then returning later...)
thus when a priest travels from one sphere to another, his deity might warn him that his influence ends at the sphere, but UEG god X will be able to aid him in the phlogiston (perhaps at a lower level of power) and that certain gods in the other spheres are allies who serve the same purpose...
alternately,
the gods might lie a little, having a bit of a secret pact with eachother, where when a priest passes to another sphere they have no power in the phog, and must pray to an "alternate form" of their god (the allied god of similar attributes)...
Please can you quote your source for this information, because I've always believed the opposite to be true.
The books in the original Spelljammer boxed set, as well as just about any other Spelljammer product.
The Planescape boxed set mentioned it as well. Basically the breakdown is:1st edition: multiple prime material planes, one set of inner/outer planes.
2nd edition: one prime material plane, one set of inner/outer planes.
3rd edition: multiple prime material planes, multiple sets of inner/outer planes.
So if you were playing under 1st or 3rd edition rules and want to include the published game worlds, the crystal spheres aren't really necessary. If you're using 2nd edition rules and want to include the published worlds, the crystal spheres allow you to include them without creating conflicts between them.
The concept of the "polyverse" being made up of alternate prime material planes was introduced in the 1st edition. See Manual of the Planes P117.
Well Spelljammer is 2E, not 1E so there's going to be differences just on that score.
And Krynn, Oerth and Toril do need to be in different planes because the influence of the gods stretches throughout the prime material plane. So clerics of the gods of Krynn gain spells throughout Krynnspace, but don't necessarily gain spells in Realmspace.
This is dealt with specifically in Spelljammer rules because all spheres are still the same prime material plane.
In the Flow clerics can cast any spell they've memorized, but cannot regain spells above 2nd because the Phlogiston is impervious to other dimensions. That is, you can't travel dimensionally into or out of the Flow, you can't contact into or out of the Flow, extra-dimensional and non-dimensional items and spells do not work, etc.
In Wildspace (that is, inside any crystal sphere) clerics can contact their deities ONLY if that deity has an ESTABLISHED body of worshippers in the sphere. I.e., you can't enter a new sphere, set up a temple with just you as the sole worshipper/priest and expect it to work. There were magic items introduced to enable contact with deities despite not having established followings in a sphere. Therefore, if you come from Krynn and go to the Realms your clerics will not have access to the Krynn deities until a dedicated following for those deities can be established.
It nonetheless tends to create some sticky/confusing situations regarding dimensional travel between spheres. For example, can you travel astrally from one sphere to another or via the deep ethereal? I seem to recall that such questions were answered officially at one point, but official 2E cosmology was a mess by default so it's generally better to make up your own rules as regards Spelljammer and don't look back.
If you get rid of the spheres/alternate prime material planes then clerics gain spells everywhere. This brings in another change. I think that the crystal spheres solve a lot of problems with D&D in space. If you want to get rid of them then you need to hunt out and solve all these problems first.
(Personally I like the crystal spheres, so I won't use sphere-free rules, but good luck doing them.)
In 2E cosmology the use of actual ALTERNATE prime material planes was strongly discouraged. They created complications and such that they just didn't want to have to deal with. Thus explaining further yet why they went to such lengths with the Spelljammer rules to isolate existing campaign worlds without changing that One-Prime-Material-Plane-For-Everything position.
Thus explaining further yet why they went to such lengths with the Spelljammer rules to isolate existing campaign worlds without changing that One-Prime-Material-Plane-For-Everything position.
One Prime to rule them all, one Prime to find them, one Prime to bring them all and in the Flow to bind them.
Or should that be "in the spheres to bind them"? Either one works, really. :D
Wyvern
1) Ships use gates in outerspace to travel to the Plane of Shadow (The deep waters of the game) to find other gates that conect to other "alternate primes."
2) Combine the best aspects of Planescape and Spelljammer and any other campaign setting you choose.
less planes, not more...
you're already adding a new element to the universe by throwing in space...
you don'tneed plane-hopping for travel...
keeping the spheres leaves you with a single plane of existance,
but allows you to separate domains of the gods, or anything else you want to keep seperate...
it even leaves you with an epic adventure hook with the players existing at a time when their sphere is just mastering spelljamming,
and when they first breach their sphere, in come the Neogi, or any other big nast race with spelljamming capabilities, to enslave this new sphere (perhaps up until that point, the gods of the sphere had kept it sealed until they felt their followers could deal with creatures like the invaders...)
I've often said that I feel Spelljammer needs to be two things. First, it needs to be a setting that can stand on its own. It needs to be demonstrated that Spelljammer is a viable setting in and of itself that doesn't need other worlds to hold it up. The Polyhedron mini-game had the right idea with this. People still debate on the outcome of this.
Secondly, it needs to be a tool to allow the DM to connect settings in sort of a modular fashion. A DM could use Krynn and the Realms, but not Greyhawk. Or he could ditch the Radiant Triangle and Astromundi Cluster for the Known Spheres and Pyrespace.
I am thoroughly convinced that having Spelljammer as both a setting and a way of connecting settings is the best way of approaching d20 Spelljammer. That's just my opinion, of course.
So basically, setting of its own and a way to connect settings. A customizable cosmology. Perhaps one could even include and exclude elements like the crystal spheres or phlogiston, although in some ways that's a setting flavor piece.
I have to say, I really respect the guys at Beyond the Moons and the efforts of Static, Night Druid, and everyone else. I've done my part with my Krynnspace write-up too.
But I really do wish there was a good d20 conversion, ala a PDF document like what Athas.org has.
One idea I just had, too, was alternate class abilities for classes ala the Planar HB, save that it would apply to space.
not really needed,
aside from a handful of new skills and feats, not much else is needed...
what kinda alternates are you thinking?
have we considered tapping some of the pirate based sources?
Swashbuckling Adventures might be a good source to use (less armor, more guns)
it's even got a couple gun oriented classes and the like...
if you just say that even under magical propulsion, a ship behaves like a ship,
it's all good.
again
in SBA they have rules for that...
where based on the gun's damage it has an armor defeating bonus...
also there are "unarmored proficiency" feats that make for good inspiration
Is there any way to motivate players to not wear armor? No one is afraid to drown when there isn't any water. If there were, they wouldn't get on the boat. I'm on the verge of having guns ignore armor.
Its is a common belief that while armor will stop an arrow, it wont stop pellets/bullets. So if you are going to use the "guns ignore armor" it wont be too far from the norm
Randal
Also, if a god dies, such as Takhisis did at the end of the War of Souls, their constellation dissappears. You can see how this would cause havoc if other campaign worlds like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms had to deal with Krynn's ever-changing star patterns .
I played without the crystal spheres, and I found that the best way to deal with the DragonLance problem was to ignore it.
Or say that Krynn is the only one in a Crystal Sphere.
If the players ask about it, simply say, "No one knows." in a mysterious voice, etc.
nyarg...
less planes, not more...
you're already adding a new element to the universe by throwing in space...
you don'tneed plane-hopping for travel...
keeping the spheres leaves you with a single plane of existance,
but allows you to separate domains of the gods, or anything else you want to keep seperate...
it even leaves you with an epic adventure hook with the players existing at a time when their sphere is just mastering spelljamming,
and when they first breach their sphere, in come the Neogi, or any other big nast race with spelljamming capabilities, to enslave this new sphere (perhaps up until that point, the gods of the sphere had kept it sealed until they felt their followers could deal with creatures like the invaders...)
Ugg..
More Planes not less..
Personally I don't want a single plane of existance. There is a reason that the divided up the gods from differant game worlds. But I do agree that the universe should seem very big. If anything I think that I would like to see a world were the followers of Greyhawk Gods were very differant than the ones on Oerth. Just because there might be a connection to the Plane of Shadow, doesn't mean that one would exist in every solar system. Perhaps worm (or perhaps even wyrm hole) hole might get you closer to it, but you may have to go far into or through a dangerous place to find it.
There are no reason to ignore other game concepts like Planesape. If history shows anything, they have more in common than not. The factions of Planescape are much like the differant groups of Spelljammer.
If anything I think that I would like to see a world were the followers of Greyhawk Gods were very differant than the ones on Oerth.
Different in what sense?
Wyvern
Different in what sense?
Wyvern
Any anysense. How about Orges that worshiped Heronious or perhaps an Oriental twist on the Greyhawk Gods. Make Heronious a God of Bushido.
Much of what makes science fiction/fantasy work is when you make something differant, but with a few familiar ties.
Perhaps one idea would be trying to find all the worlds that Zagyg traveled to.
Pehaps some of the worlds in Greyhawk's universe have guns. Pehaps some of them have no Arcane Magic. Pehaps some the worlds have been wiped out by Tharizdun. Perhaps characters could find the world the Rheene (Greyhawks Riverfolk) are from. Personally I thougth that the Rheene would make great Spelljamming characters/npcs.
What I would not change are the fantasy physics. The aristolean physics were a defining element in the setting and if you take them out, you might as well be playing Dragonstar (not that Dragonstar is bad, but it's not Spelljammer). They aren't hard to grasp, at least for anyone I've ever played with, and my Spelljammer campaigns have included a very broad sampling of people. And as said by an above poster, they aren't new ideas. The creators imaginatively combined two discounted views of the universe (phlogistion and crystal spheres). If the setting's physics bother you, then I imagine your campaigns don't include giants, flying dragons, or magic either since they're all impossibilites in the real world as well.
Oh, and making air and gravity dependent on the helm on an open decked ship is one of the stupidist ideas I've heard. Yeah, like I'm going to fly through a vacuum in something that can instantly kill me with a simple dispell magic or by flying too close to an anti-magic area. If you're going to eliminate the default gravity/atmosphere assumptions of the setting, at least have the decency to redesign the ships.
I'd also throw out some of the baggage that came with those settings, like tinker gnomes (did anyone actually think they were funny?).
Yeah, I did. I also like "goofy" giff.See, the humor value is part of what made Spelljammer great. Even at that, humorous elements can have serious sides.
What I would change would be mostly to drop the connections to the other published settings; something fairly easy to do.
Not just easy - it's a vital necessity. One of the most spectacular failings of Spelljammer was in how it actually HANDLED the connection of one or more existing/published settings as well as how the Spelljammer rules affected those settings and vice versa.
For example, when you mix, say, Dragonlance with Greyhawk you have one society that uses STEEL as it's currency and another that uses GOLD. You buy several tons of cheep steel in Greyhawk, fly it to Dragonlance. Sell it to anyone and everyone at half value. Take those profits and buy cheap gold being used as doorstops, fly it to Greyhawk. Spend it. See the problem?
Or how about the fact that you can take off from anywhere on any of these planets, Krynn, Oerth, Aebir-Toril, etc., fly out of gravity range, spend a few moments at full spelljamming speed zipping around to the other side of the planet, and then landing again. The time it takes to get to ANYWHERE on the same planet is equal only to the time it takes to get to orbit and back down. Sorta has CATASTROPHIC implications for communication, commerce, and the DM simpy wanting to get the PC's to travel THROUGH inhospitable territory once in a while instead of OVER it.
And then there's the Groundlings vs. Spacers thing. It defies even the most simple suspension of disbelief for either group to simply IGNORE the other. Political, social, and economic forces MUST be addressed in all cultures that can and ARE accessed by Spelljamming capability.
These are the reasons that any treatment of Spelljammer that is worth even a moment of my consideration must establish Spelljammer as a setting in and of itself - not as a mere glue to stick UTTERLY UNRELATED SETTINGS together. Sticking other settings together is occasionally fun but it's been DONE. It was done long before Spelljammer made any sort of "official" connection. Hop on the back of a dragon and fly to the moon. Step through a portal and find yourself transported from Greyhawk to the Realms. Cast a spell and travel vast distances on a single plane or access other planes and exotic destinations. These things are possible with any version of D&D rules. But you don't need Spelljammer to tie Krynn to Oerth and Athas, or Ravenloft, or Mystara.
The point of playing Spelljammer IS to play D&D in a fully developed SPACE-oriented setting, not to be able to adventure in both Greyhawk and the Realms by flying between the two in ships.
What I would not change are the fantasy physics. The aristolean physics were a defining element in the setting and if you take them out, you might as well be playing Dragonstar (not that Dragonstar is bad, but it's not Spelljammer).
The word you're looking for is "cosmology", not physics. And you're right that the Spelljammer cosmology has nothing wrong with it that can't be easily fixed (the asinine travel times of years for trips between spheres). But the PHYSICS - yes the physics do need changing. That is to say that issues of gravity need to be better defined, better handled.
Binary gravity (gravity is either THERE and at 1g or is at 0g, one or the other, on or off) is very convenient for many aspects of the game but my experience with Spelljammer quickly found places where binary gravity became problematic because Spelljammer deals with binary gravity that is confined in very finite spaces - ships. When objects leave one gravitational field, enter 0g, and then enter another gravitiational field you need decent rules for making certain calculations - or at least being able to produce reasonable spitball adjudications.
Oh, and making air and gravity dependent on the helm on an open decked ship is one of the stupidist ideas I've heard. Yeah, like I'm going to fly through a vacuum in something that can instantly kill me with a simple dispell magic or by flying too close to an anti-magic area. If you're going to eliminate the default gravity/atmosphere assumptions of the setting, at least have the decency to redesign the ships.
The real problem with helms IMO was that they took a PC spellcaster (actually more than one) and effectively removed them from play because they were needed to "fly" the ship. BAD game design that was. And both the game designers and players never seemed to be able to keep it straight that the ONLY thing the helmsman did is provide motive power: make the ship GO, make the ship STOP. TURNING was something that was supposed to be done by the rest of the crew. This, of course, broke down just as soon as they started including ships that didn't HAVE any crew.
Spelljammer was treated very much like a "kitchen sink" setting - they apparantly felt they could throw just about anything into it and then let the individual DM's figure out how to get it all to function as if it were a REAL setting. New world destroying monsters? Entire new crystal spheres? Sure! You can just put it out there in space whereever you want.
You might as well say, "Hey, here's an entirely new NATION for your Forgotten Realms campaign. You can put it right on the border of Cormyr if you want!" It would make as much sense. They'd NEVER do that for the Realms or Oerth, etc. but because space is... empty... they never bothered to realize that at some point Spelljammer - in and of itself - needed to make sense and that would have to mean NOT just tossing in anything and everything without any overarching rhyme or reason to it as a NORMAL campaign setting would have.And I'll ditto others remarks about ship weapons and ship combat. The way Spelljammer handled it was quite illogical. It only worked if you studiously avoided thinking about HOW it worked. As soon as you ask yourself how a Human with normal eyesight can shoot a catapult (an INDIRECT fire weapon) at a ship that is the size of a pinhead because it's THOUSANDS of yards away (read: 1.2 miles) and moving at an effective speed of 70 MPH and expect to hit it without the benfit of heavy magical assistance - and hit it just as easily as if it were 500 yards away - well then ship combat collapses.
And then there's... Aw heck. Just go to http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/spelljammer/revisingspelljammer.htm. I wrote it several years ago but I don't think anything I wrote then has changed a whit.
Not just easy - it's a vital necessity. One of the most spectacular failings of Spelljammer was in how it actually HANDLED the connection of one or more existing/published settings as well as how the Spelljammer rules affected those settings and vice versa.
For example, when you mix, say, Dragonlance with Greyhawk you have one society that uses STEEL as it's currency and another that uses GOLD. You buy several tons of cheep steel in Greyhawk, fly it to Dragonlance. Sell it to anyone and everyone at half value. Take those profits and buy cheap gold being used as doorstops, fly it to Greyhawk. Spend it. See the problem?
Or how about the fact that you can take off from anywhere on any of these planets, Krynn, Oerth, Aebir-Toril, etc., fly out of gravity range, spend a few moments at full spelljamming speed zipping around to the other side of the planet, and then landing again. The time it takes to get to ANYWHERE on the same planet is equal only to the time it takes to get to orbit and back down. Sorta has CATASTROPHIC implications for communication, commerce, and the DM simpy wanting to get the PC's to travel THROUGH inhospitable territory once in a while instead of OVER it.
And then there's the Groundlings vs. Spacers thing. It defies even the most simple suspension of disbelief for either group to simply IGNORE the other. Political, social, and economic forces MUST be addressed in all cultures that can and ARE accessed by Spelljamming capability.
These are the reasons that any treatment of Spelljammer that is worth even a moment of my consideration must establish Spelljammer as a setting in and of itself - not as a mere glue to stick UTTERLY UNRELATED SETTINGS together. Sticking other settings together is occasionally fun but it's been DONE. It was done long before Spelljammer made any sort of "official" connection. Hop on the back of a dragon and fly to the moon. Step through a portal and find yourself transported from Greyhawk to the Realms. Cast a spell and travel vast distances on a single plane or access other planes and exotic destinations. These things are possible with any version of D&D rules. But you don't need Spelljammer to tie Krynn to Oerth and Athas, or Ravenloft, or Mystara.
Well said.
The point of playing Spelljammer IS to play D&D in a fully developed SPACE-oriented setting, not to be able to adventure in both Greyhawk and the Realms by flying between the two in ships.
The word you're looking for is "cosmology", not physics. And you're right that the Spelljammer cosmology has nothing wrong with it that can't be easily fixed (the asinine travel times of years for trips between spheres). But the PHYSICS - yes the physics do need changing. That is to say that issues of gravity need to be better defined, better handled.
Binary gravity (gravity is either THERE and at 1g or is at 0g, one or the other, on or off) is very convenient for many aspects of the game but my experience with Spelljammer quickly found places where binary gravity became problematic because Spelljammer deals with binary gravity that is confined in very finite spaces - ships. When objects leave one gravitational field, enter 0g, and then enter another gravitiational field you need decent rules for making certain calculations - or at least being able to produce reasonable spitball adjudications.
You are correct that I was using 'cosmology' and 'physics' interchangably, although I'm in favor of keeping both. What were the problems you encountered with gravity? I've never had an issue with it.
The real problem with helms IMO was that they took a PC spellcaster (actually more than one) and effectively removed them from play because they were needed to "fly" the ship. BAD game design that was. And both the game designers and players never seemed to be able to keep it straight that the ONLY thing the helmsman did is provide motive power: make the ship GO, make the ship STOP. TURNING was something that was supposed to be done by the rest of the crew. This, of course, broke down just as soon as they started including ships that didn't HAVE any crew.
I agree with the helm thing. It never made much sense from an in-game stand point either. A guy's going to train for years to master powerful, arcane energies only to be stuck all day on a chair and can't even get up for bathroom break? Or better yet, a guy who's devoted his life to serving his religion gets turned into an inboard motor. I always ended up giving my players an alternate helm that didn't require a spellcaster get screwed.
Spelljammer was treated very much like a "kitchen sink" setting - they apparantly felt they could throw just about anything into it and then let the individual DM's figure out how to get it all to function as if it were a REAL setting. New world destroying monsters? Entire new crystal spheres? Sure! You can just put it out there in space whereever you want.
I don't think they really thought of it as a setting at all. It was merely a way to connect their other published settings. Saddly, it was completely unnecessary in that function since planar travel was already a long established part of D&D. Planescape coming out shortly after even made this more painfully apparent. The Astromundi Cluster and the Spider Moon mini-game were both obvious attemts to create a coherent Spelljammer setting. It's interesting that they both made the mistake of trying to limit the setting to a single sphere/star system.
And I'll ditto others remarks about ship weapons and ship combat. The way Spelljammer handled it was quite illogical. It only worked if you studiously avoided thinking about HOW it worked. As soon as you ask yourself how a Human with normal eyesight can shoot a catapult (an INDIRECT fire weapon) at a ship that is the size of a pinhead because it's THOUSANDS of yards away (read: 1.2 miles) and moving at an effective speed of 70 MPH and expect to hit it without the benfit of heavy magical assistance - and hit it just as easily as if it were 500 yards away - well then ship combat collapses.
And then there's... Aw heck. Just go to http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/spelljammer/revisingspelljammer.htm. I wrote it several years ago but I don't think anything I wrote then has changed a whit.
I've pretty much swapped catapults out with cannon/bombards. I also have ballistae firing round shot instead of javelins. The way I figure things is that ship combat in the setting mostly centers around ramming and boarding actions. Compared to similar historic sailing ships, the ones in Spelljammer are very lightly armed anyway.
You are correct that I was using 'cosmology' and 'physics' interchangably, although I'm in favor of keeping both. What were the problems you encountered with gravity? I've never had an issue with it.
Two ships are fighting. One rams the other at a 90 degree angle perpendicular to its gravity plane. By the rules the heavier ships gravity becomes dominant and everyone and everything on the lighter ship now "falls" toward the new gravity plane. Define how to run the results.
A man falls out of the rigging to a ships gravity plane. By the rules he'll bob up and down and eventually come to rest at the plane, then get pushed to the edge of the envelope. How many times will he bob up/down? How many rounds will it take? Where is he at the end of any given round; top of an arc, bottom, at the gravity plane... How FAST will he get pushed to the edge of the envelope?
A character jumps from one ship to another. The ships gravities are perpendicular but the ships are NOT touching. Both gravities are in effect. Where does the OTHER gravity take over as he's in the air? /// A character with a fly spell is between two ships with overlapping gravity fields and the duration of his spell runs out. Which gravity field takes effect - the closer field or the field of the larger ship?
A 1 ton Flitter hovers over the deck of a 100-ton Armada. The flitter can roll upside down and the pilot can toss a ball "up and down" between another person on the deck. The wing of the flitter brushes the deck - the heavier ships gravity takes over and the pilot falls to the deck. The helm of the now unmanned flitter ceases functioning and it crashes on top of two characters. If the character on the deck of the Armada reached up and touched the wing of the Flitter while it was hovering upside down overhead what would happen?
The RAW for Spelljammer have multiple gravitational effects in a 3D environment but no rules for coordinating things beween those effects.
The RAW for Spelljammer have multiple gravitational effects in a 3D environment but no rules for coordinating things beween those effects.
Ah, so it's not a problem with the physics themselves so much, but rather a lack of a detailed or thought out implementation of them in the rules. I can see that, though I (probably like most people) fudged my way through them on the very rare occasions when it came up (my games are rather fast and loose anyway). I think the problem gets back to the even more basic issue that the writers of the game really didn't make it to be a complete setting.
I read through the document that you linked above. I'll comment more on it later, when I have some spare time.
And then there's... Aw heck. Just go to http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/spelljammer/revisingspelljammer.htm. I wrote it several years ago but I don't think anything I wrote then has changed a whit.
I read that not long ago and I agreed with most of it, but there are a couple of points I disagree on:
This brought into question why there was such a difference in accuracy between, say, a heavy catapult and a light ballista. It is easy to compensate for the speed of the missile and range is immaterial without gravity and air resistances so there shouldn’t be such a difference in their accuracy. Yet obviously, from a game design standpoint there has to be some differences between weapons. Perhaps the more the lead time has to be increased the more difficult a shot is going to be and this is what accounts for the difference. But this still doesn’t account for a difference in range!
Why is a rifle more accurate at long range than a pistol? Is it because the bullet is faster? No, it's because it's more easier to aim accurately with a rifle. So why is it so hard to imagine the same difference applying to ballistas and catapults?
The gigantic scale of the Spelljammer style game setting also becomes a problem in that it takes so long to get anywhere. Assume you’re going to travel from one sphere to another – let’s say from Toril of Realmspace to Oerth of Greyspace. Given the times and distances as defined in Spelljammer such a journey would take 4 to 7 months – one way! Not exactly an incentive to travel is it when a round trip averages almost a year? Now consider the impact it would have upon inter-sphere trade and warfare. It would become a thoroughly unfeasible proposition – not impossible perhaps but seldom a practical option.
I think that people nowadays are so used to being able to go anywhere in the world in less than 24 hours that they forget how long it *used* to take. Magellan's crew took nearly *three years* to circle the globe! True, a six-month journey doesn't exactly make for an exciting adventure, but I don't buy that it would prevent inter-sphere trade and warfare. If that were true, Britain would never have colonized North America, South Africa, Australia, India and Hong Kong.
Also, even saying that it's a problem for the PCs is based on the assumption that a campaign must consist of an unbroken chain of events. I read of one RPG lately (can't remember which one, unfortunately) which recommended that PCs should have one adventure a year on average! Why couldn't the same be true for Spelljammer?
Wyvern
Why is a rifle more accurate at long range than a pistol? Is it because the bullet is faster? No, it's because it's more easier to aim accurately with a rifle. So why is it so hard to imagine the same difference applying to ballistas and catapults?
Wyvern
Let's start with, you're completely wrong.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE8.html
_________________________Weight__Velocity__Energy
________________________(Grains)__(FPS)____(Ft-#)
Handguns
9_mm_______________________95_____1295____353.3
357_Mag___________________110_____1295____409.1
40_S&W____________________155_____1205____499.1
45_ACP_____________________185______770____243.2
Rifles
22_Hornet____________________45_____2690____722.1
7mm_Rem_Mag_______________139_____3165___3087.8
7.62x39mm_Russian___________123_____2365___1525.6
30_Car______________________110_____1990____966.0
30-30_Win___________________125_____2570___1830.9
30-06_Springfield______________125_____3140___2733.1
308_Army____________________150_____2820___2645.3
I have fired, among others, the three handguns, and half the rifles. Velocity means the bullet will drop less over distance, and will hit with more force.
I for one, would not want a chapter on differential equations so I can figure out exaclty how many times a apple bobbs up and down in the gravity plane plane of a 62 ton ship with marginal air quality, before comming to equilibrium... Then falling out of the gravity envelope of the ship. I would much rather leave that to whether the DM cares or not. When in doubt, roll, something. Books have budgets. I would rather have enough physics to give the DM an idea of how to decide on the details, and a bigger chapter on setting.
there are a couple of points I disagree on:
This brought into question why there was such a difference in accuracy between, say, a heavy catapult and a light ballista. It is easy to compensate for the speed of the missile and range is immaterial without gravity and air resistances so there shouldn’t be such a difference in their accuracy. Yet obviously, from a game design standpoint there has to be some differences between weapons. Perhaps the more the lead time has to be increased the more difficult a shot is going to be and this is what accounts for the difference. But this still doesn’t account for a difference in range!
Why is a rifle more accurate at long range than a pistol? Is it because the bullet is faster? No, it's because it's more easier to aim accurately with a rifle. So why is it so hard to imagine the same difference applying to ballistas and catapults?
Once the projectile leaves the gravity envelope of the ship it moves forever, and both light and heavy versions have precisely the same ballistic factors at work. In a sense, the range for ANY of them effectively maxes out at the edge of the envelope and for any of these weapons - even the non-Spelljammer kind - that's not even beginning to be far enough away to substantially change the way they would need to be aimed.
What they tried to do was simply port the regular D&D equivalents to a space-combat game. But the space combat game has substantially different physical laws that are being applied because the gravitational pull is going to be completely absent for all but the VERY initial and final portions of the range of the projectile. That wasn't reflected by altering the way the weapons need to be aimed or in showing that their ranges are effectively the same because they are largely UNaffected by gravity and thus have almost no ballistic arc.
The gigantic scale of the Spelljammer style game setting also becomes a problem in that it takes so long to get anywhere. Assume you’re going to travel from one sphere to another – let’s say from Toril of Realmspace to Oerth of Greyspace. Given the times and distances as defined in Spelljammer such a journey would take 4 to 7 months – one way! Not exactly an incentive to travel is it when a round trip averages almost a year? Now consider the impact it would have upon inter-sphere trade and warfare. It would become a thoroughly unfeasible proposition – not impossible perhaps but seldom a practical option.
I think that people nowadays are so used to being able to go anywhere in the world in less than 24 hours that they forget how long it *used* to take. Magellan's crew took nearly *three years* to circle the globe! True, a six-month journey doesn't exactly make for an exciting adventure, but I don't buy that it would prevent inter-sphere trade and warfare. If that were true, Britain would never have colonized North America, South Africa, Australia, India and Hong Kong.
Also, even saying that it's a problem for the PCs is based on the assumption that a campaign must consist of an unbroken chain of events. I read of one RPG lately (can't remember which one, unfortunately) which recommended that PCs should have one adventure a year on average! Why couldn't the same be true for Spelljammer?
It can, but that isn't the model used by the VAST majority of RPG's. Campaign settings are designed to facilitate that typical chain of unbroken events and flow of time. If you want to extend it for purposes of a more unusual use for the setting you can without having to rewrite how the setting is put together. Not so with Spelljammer. Spelljammer, while ostensibly designed to CONNECT campaign worlds together, does so in a way that acts as a DETERRENT to actually making use of that connection because it prevents a normal flow of events (at least as far as making USE of that campaign world connectivity).
Spelljammer allows for a larger physical scale of campaign. A typical D&D world goes from city, to nation/state, to continent, to planet/world. Spelljammer adds OTHER planets/worlds, and then other spheres as well. But it provides a common mode of travel that effectively ELIMINATES the lower end of the scales. Moving from one city to another, one nation to another, one continent to another takes no more time than WALKING the length of a large city. The time/travel scale for interplanetary travel should then take the place of what would have been inter-city travel. However, it also moves up to the time scale of international travel which already puts it at the limits of the scale of most campaigns. The intersphere travel then meets or exceeds that scale - but it seemed to me that the whole point of connecting campaign settings this way was to enable inter-setting travel on a REGULAR basis not strictly as a once-in-a-lifetime/first-ever epic trip by Magellan, or Columbus.
No, it wouldn't prevent intersphere trade but then is it really supposed to put PC's in the position of being Magellan if the campaign is going to actually cross settings when that's supposed to have been one of the primary reasons for creating Spelljammer? What happens when Volo finally travels from the Realms and discovers Oerth? He hasn't found a largely empty land of new opportunity, he's found a world as fully developed and thriving as the Realms? Has that already occured when the campaign begins? Does the amount and kind of space traffic in Spelljammer assume that it HAS or assume that it HASN'T?
These are incredibly important issues for a Spelljammer campaign that should have been addressed but weren't. It is why Spelljammer is not and was not a campaign SETTING in and of itself. It has absolutely no sense of what the Spelljammer universe actually consists of - only what it COULD theoretically consiste of! And then makes no attempt to reconcile the campaign design issues that naturally arise when attempting to weld two utterly independant, unrelated settings into a new, seamless whole. Spelljammer only exists as a brief set of limited-use tools for someone to try to hammer it into BECOMING a setting after working out all those sorts of issues after the fact. For Spelljammer to have been truly useful it should have at least made note that those things should and would need to be dealt with even if it didn't provide the additional tools to do so.
That at least was one of the points I was getting at in that article.
Once the projectile leaves the gravity envelope of the ship it moves forever, and both light and heavy versions have precisely the same ballistic factors at work. In a sense, the range for ANY of them effectively maxes out at the edge of the envelope and for any of these weapons - even the non-Spelljammer kind - that's not even beginning to be far enough away to substantially change the way they would need to be aimed.
So what you're saying is that the chance of hitting a target should be the same at 50 feet and 500 feet, no matter what weapon you're using? Well, in the first place, I don't buy that. Even if gravity is not a factor, it's still going to be harder to hit a target at long range simply because the target is less visible and there's less margin for error. If you're using a weapon which is generally harder to aim precisely, that lack of precision is going to matter more at long ranges, where being 1 degree off target can make a big difference.
But in any case, I thought it was the accuracy (i.e. to-hit bonus/penalty) you were talking about, not the range increment. It just seems to me that a catapult would be less accurate than a ballista no matter what the range or conditions were.
It can, but that isn't the model used by the VAST majority of RPG's. Campaign settings are designed to facilitate that typical chain of unbroken events and flow of time.
Just because something isn't normally done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done if it's appropriate for the campaign setting. Anyway, it's not that unusual, even in a regular campaign, to say "Two weeks later, you arrive..." Why is it infeasible to extend the travel time to a few months? It would at least help with the problem of unnaturally rapid level advancement!
The intersphere travel then meets or exceeds that scale - but it seemed to me that the whole point of connecting campaign settings this way was to enable inter-setting travel on a REGULAR basis not strictly as a once-in-a-lifetime/first-ever epic trip by Magellan, or Columbus. No, it wouldn't prevent intersphere trade but then is it really supposed to put PC's in the position of being Magellan if the campaign is going to actually cross settings when that's supposed to have been one of the primary reasons for creating Spelljammer?
I only mentioned Magellan for illustration purposes. We're not talking about three years here, after all, we're talking 4-7 months. Three years is a "once-in-a-lifetime/first-ever epic trip". Six months is probably a routine tour of duty for a 19th-century merchant marine shipping goods from the East Indies to Europe round the Cape.
What happens when Volo finally travels from the Realms and discovers Oerth? He hasn't found a largely empty land of new opportunity, he's found a world as fully developed and thriving as the Realms? Has that already occured when the campaign begins? Does the amount and kind of space traffic in Spelljammer assume that it HAS or assume that it HASN'T? These are incredibly important issues for a Spelljammer campaign that should have been addressed but weren't.
I'm not denying any of that. I'm just saying that the travel time in and of itself is not as big an issue as you make it out to be.
Wyvern
So, how does this apply back to SJ where "there's no gravity"? In the span of a round, how far can a projectile fly? For the sake of keeping things simple enough to play reasonably well at the kitchen table, we're going to say that a large catapult can launch a projectile fast enough to be accurate at 6 hexes, and a balista at 2 (or something).
But that doesn't hold water either because of the incredible (that is, truly NOT credible) ranges for the weapons without the use of magic. A real-world trebuchet has a range of a few hundred yards. A single Spelljammer hex is already 500 yards. Take a long range of 6 hexes. That's 3000 yards or 1.7 miles. That well exceeds the effective range of modern rifles so the distances are immediately insane just on the face of it.
And yet a typical gravity envelope is going to be only 100' or so (here I'm sort of assuming a game that features more mosquitos, eels and wasps than armadas). A medieval trebuchet is going to fire perhaps 1000' max (being very generous) and an actual catapult substantially less (and that assumes a trebuchet that is in itself the size of a 50-ton or better spelljammer). That's a machine that's built to take out stone walls, not ships hulls. You'd use MUCH smaller, lighter shot and get much greater range which changes the dynamics somewhat but set that aside for the moment.
200' of gravitational pull (combining the distance in ships envelopes at the start and finish of its travel) is nothing for a weapon that's going to put holes in the side of a ships hull. There would barely be any aiming involved in that regard - the only problem is that both target and firing platform are moving in relation to each other and thus LEAD time is your sole real factor in hitting another ship. Catapults are NOT built in any way shape or form to fire at moving targets, just stationary walls or a given, fixed target point. But then even if you could largely overcome that you're still extremely unlikely to hit anything further than 2 hexes away without inventing some strictly-fantasy weapons and abilities.
The speed of the projectile isn't particularly important. In 2nd Ed rules (which Spelljammer is) you have 1 minute combat rounds anyway. Since lead-time is your primary aiming factor, not ballistic arc because there is little/no gravity that will affect trajectory. In 1 minute of zipping through space uninfluenced by gravity or atmosphere a catapult shot could travel a shocking distance indeed - and whether heavy catapult or light catapult your effective distance for shooting at things is, again, only an adjustment of lead-time to compensate for a slower projectile speed. It affects your chances to-hit, NOT the effective range. The range is extended (in a sense to infinity) because of the lack of gravity and atmospheric influences. But you still have to HIT something without magic for the Spelljammer rules to even begin to make sense. You're talking about hitting - accurately - a 100' target moving up to 70mph at distances exceeding 1.5 MILES from a platform that is itself travelling up to 70mph, all without magic or even speculating the existance of fantasy-aiming devices built by gnomes or the like. It is patently unbelievable the moment you look at it with a practical eye.
I for one, would not want a chapter on differential equations so I can figure out exaclty how many times a apple bobbs up and down in the gravity plane plane of a 62 ton ship with marginal air quality, before comming to equilibrium... Then falling out of the gravity envelope of the ship. I would much rather leave that to whether the DM cares or not. When in doubt, roll, something. Books have budgets. I would rather have enough physics to give the DM an idea of how to decide on the details, and a bigger chapter on setting.
I don't want a chapter of differential equations either - but I want SOME kind of rules that fill the voids. The problem is that Spelljammer delves into areas where physics become a far more prominent factor than they normally would be in a D&D game. For example it already assumes that combat all but IGNORES the 3-D aspects of space combat and other physics. It attempted to simply trump all those issues by imposing its own physics but that only introduces its own set of problems. I'll give you another example: In a planets atmosphere you move at the same speed as in ship-ship combat. Get a good helm and decent level helmsman and you're moving at modern highway speed through the atmosphere. That's all fine and well until you realize that that is effectively HURRICANE force winds and would rip the sails off of any ship. But there are no rules to mention that little irritating fact. Ships with sails should have to take in those sails in order to move at full speed in an atmosphere and when they can't or won't then we need a simple rule to tell us how much damage is going to be done. That would apply, for example, when two ships pass close enough to move through each others atmosphere envelope. Each envelope is moving WITH the ship that generates it so two ships, each moving at 40mph are going to effectively mix atmospheres at 80mph and BOTH should take damage as a result - even though the ships themselves would never make contact.
This all may seem pedantic and unnecessary but it's just the very basic problems that arise when you willfully ignore implications of real-world physics. A little of that goes a long way. D&D (until 3E) had insane problems with rates of fire of bows. The argument came up again and again that bows could be fired a LOT more than twice in a 1 minute round without sacrificing accuracy. But to change that to match reality without also changing everything else about combat would make them unbelievably more effective weapons in comparison. A shorter combat round finally brought rates of fire, movement and other aspects of D&D combat into something that better approximated reality. But Spelljammer takes wild new physical postulations and ignores basic ramifications.
The approach it SHOULD have taken was rather than conducting combat on a much larger scale of hundreds or thousands of yards, it should have kept it on the traditional scale of medieval capability and then given fantasy physics rationalizations for it. It could have assumed for example that as ships approach each other their gravitational fields begin to act TOGETHER as a single gravity field, so that long before they even enter the range of each others weapons they function for all practical purposes like real ships on the sea and then provide more detailed rules to accomodate THAT kind of combat [D&D is and has ALWAYS been deficient in rules regarding combat between ships or other moving vehicles]. Instead of adapating new fantasy physical laws to myriad new situations have the traditional D&D physical laws remain applicable to those same situations - you wouldn't ever need to apply mathematical equations or invent new rules on the fly because the methods and details of combat would not have changed as Spelljammer did.
So what you're saying is that the chance of hitting a target should be the same at 50 feet and 500 feet, no matter what weapon you're using? Well, in the first place, I don't buy that. Even if gravity is not a factor, it's still going to be harder to hit a target at long range simply because the target is less visible and there's less margin for error. If you're using a weapon which is generally harder to aim precisely, that lack of precision is going to matter more at long ranges, where being 1 degree off target can make a big difference.
I agree. However, that gap where there is no gravitational influence extends the range of almost all weapons equally. It wouldn't take any greater skill to lob a light catapult shot a given distance through a vacuum than a heavy catapult shot.
But in any case, I thought it was the accuracy (i.e. to-hit bonus/penalty) you were talking about, not the range increment. It just seems to me that a catapult would be less accurate than a ballista no matter what the range or conditions were.
Both accuracy and range are influenced and you cannot change one without taking into consideration how that in turn changes the other. If you increase range to unbelievable distances you have to have unbelievable accuracy. If you assume an unbelievable level of accuracy then you in turn change the effective range of the weapons. Those changes have to have some basis in believable physical laws - even if they are fantasy-physical laws.
Just because something isn't normally done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done if it's appropriate for the campaign setting. Anyway, it's not that unusual, even in a regular campaign, to say "Two weeks later, you arrive..." Why is it infeasible to extend the travel time to a few months? It would at least help with the problem of unnaturally rapid level advancement!
Don't think I hadn't considered that very effect! But along with that is that characters are going to age rapidly and in the time that they are away simply travelling from A to B there are events occurring everywhere else. A good campaign world doesn't function only where the PC's are, things happen in their absence - and that has significant effects on the kind of campaign you run with Spelljammer.
I only mentioned Magellan for illustration purposes. We're not talking about three years here, after all, we're talking 4-7 months. Three years is a "once-in-a-lifetime/first-ever epic trip". Six months is probably a routine tour of duty for a 19th-century merchant marine shipping goods from the East Indies to Europe round the Cape.
No, we are talking about years here because that 4-7 months is only one way and assumes that nothing happens in between that takes any time - like combat leading to repairs or adventure - and that the trip is strictly there and back again rather than stopping at a third destination or moving to multiple destinations within the destination sphere. All of which is irrelevant when talking about what NPC's are doing but is directly influential in the kind of campaign you run for the PC's, what they can do and how the flow of campaign events will be affected.
I'm not denying any of that. I'm just saying that the travel time in and of itself is not as big an issue as you make it out to be.
Depending on the kind of campaign you do actually have in mind it might not be, but it is a terribly important issue if you don't want to blow through months at a time on your campaign calender with long travel times. In any event it's something that needs to be brought to the ATTENTION of any DM intending to run a Spelljammer campaign so that he can consider the ramifications and then either adapt his campaign to suit the rules or alter the rules to suit the campaign.