Another idea might be to use rules from Epic Level handbook, but as I haven't even looked through that, I don't know if it'll work or not.
If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them though.
Making conversions of these rules would be a massive piece of work, but a very useful one.
I was also dissappointed by Deities and Demigods, especially since it didn't take the Epic book into account. IMO, a new Immortals rules should try and incorporate both as an Immortal should be more powerful than an epic level character. Being of Epic level would probably be one of the prerequistites of attaining Immortality.
Håvard
I downloaded an immortals rules conversion to 3e from Estlor's website, though I don't remember the URL offhand. IIRC, it was pretty much a direct conversion.
Håvard
Estlor's website is http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/
(side note: I now have my own internet connection at home again and will be back on the boards with much greater frequency.
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check it out it is well done but unfinished so maybe we can finnish it.
Estlor's website is http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/
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check it out it is well done but unfinished so maybe we can finnish it.
Having complete rules for running Immortals in 3e would be very useful.
Some random thoughts on Immortals in general:
Spheres: Spheres as they are presented in the WotI rules have very little impact on the setting or immortal characters. Mortals tend to indentify immortals by what they are considered patron of rather than sphere, and groups and cliques seem to be more important for immortal society politics than what sphere an immortal belongs to. The only exception to both of this cases is the division between entropic and non-entropic immortals, which tends to be a division between 'bad guys' and 'good guys'. IMC, I usually refer to entropic immortals as the 'forces of chaos' rather than the 'forces of entropy' since Sphere names generally lack in flavor IMO. IMO, the immortal rules would be better off by either making spheres more important or by removing them altogether. I tend to favor the latter even though it will probably be controversial.
Domains: Domains is a major element in 3e. IMO, this should be made important for immortal characters. Which domains an immortal grants his followers should also be reflected in his own choice of powers. Perhaps casting spells found in his Domains are cost less power than other spells.
Mortal Identities: Mortal Identities should IMO be based on the player's mortal character. This would make the old stats relevant even after the character has achieved immortality, and it would allow for the player to use his old character when he takes the role of a mortal. The immortal may be allowed to spend power to temporarily or permanently modify that character though.
Better defined mortal/immortal interraction: I would have liked to see better rules for interraction (combat etc) between mortals and immortals. I would have liked to see something using a system of scaling. Say, a mortal attacking an immortal would always give minimum damage to the immortal, while the Immortal will always give maximum damage when fighing a mortal.
The above are just ideas I have been toying with. Perhaps a better way is to stick with the rules as they are and convert them directly into 3e, but the concepts above might still have some merit. I just wanted to share them with you, but feel free to tear them apart :D
Håvard
;)
Now, comments on Havard's thoughts:
Spheres: I have to agree with you on the use of spheres. My personal view is that mortals are not likely to know much about the spheres or their names. Their concerns are with the things they can interact with; the Immortals being the greatest force that can be interacted with. So from a mortal's perspective, an Immortal's philosophy and interests (including domains for clerics) are more important. If mortals *did* have a concept of the spheres, I think they would still be namless for the most part and would see them as just groupings for Immortals with similar, basic interests.
Immortals, OTOH, should have a fundamental understanding of the spheres; in some ways it's like an additional alignment axis for them. I'd like to see the spheres developed better and made more significant. The problem is I'm not sure how to go about doing that - Any thoughts out there?
Domains: Couldn't agree more! I also believe that the spells granted by an Immortal should reflect that Immortal's interests, power level and personality. Check out the "Clerical Spell Lists" thread for almost 30 spell lists already done with more to come. Feedback would be very appreciated.
Mortal Identities: In the WotI Codex Book, it says that the new Immortal's sponsor encourages him to create a Manifestation Form that does not resemble his old mortal form; to have his new Immortal body different that his Mortal Identity. Therefore, having a mortal identity that is based on his old mortal body makes sense to a degree, but an Immortal should have several mortal identities for different purposes. I especially like the idea of having the old "mortal stats" reflected in the new "mortal identity" though.
Mortal/Immortal Interaction: I lean heavily to the notion that Immortals "are not monsters" to be fought against. Even a large group of elite 20th level mortals with years of planning should be no match for even an initiate Immortal unless he was to perform a true act of idiousy. IMC, there are absolute limits for how powerful (max level) a mortal character can get. I've never needed to use it yet, but I would allow a few epic levels only to someone on the quest for Immortality.
Well, here's opinion two ready to be torn apart.
Mortal/Immortal interraction:
Well, one thing to keep in mind on this issue is that there are different levels of Immortals as much as there are different levels of Mortals. I don't have a problem with a group of 20th level+ Mortals posing a challenge to a 1st level initiate immortal. The most powerful immortals though, have power that would rival the most ancient of gods in other settings and should have no problem squashing even Epic Level mortals.
This also touches upon an idea I have about "the law of Immortal intervention". According to the WotI rules, Immortals are not allowed to intervene on the Prime Material (Mystara). I'd like to see that rule modified somehow. What if Low-level immortals were allowed to bend this rule, whereas the most powerful immortals can't even appear on Prime in their incorporeal form without causing alarm.
Comments?
Håvard
This also touches upon an idea I have about "the law of Immortal intervention". According to the WotI rules, Immortals are not allowed to intervene on the Prime Material (Mystara). I'd like to see that rule modified somehow. What if Low-level immortals were allowed to bend this rule, whereas the most powerful immortals can't even appear on Prime in their incorporeal form without causing alarm.
I've been thinking of this as well, but the rout I take will probably be a little more extreme. The Manual of the Planes lists some planes as being divinely morphic. I was goin to take this idea and expand upon it. What if the very properties of some planes prevented an immortal (or god or whatever) from manifesting its full power. The material plane could then be like this. Immortals don't manifest there because they can't (and not because they are being watched). However an immortal could take on a mortal identity (and all the restrictions that go with that) and interact with mortals directly on the material plane.
Some planes might allow an immortal to assume its full power potential, while others might restrict it in various ways (a sliding scale fo sorts between full power and no power). Some planes might only allow the existence of mortal identities, or avatars.
...just some thoughts. Nothing that I've worked up in depth yet.
by Havard
I don't have a problem with a group of 20th level+ Mortals posing a challenge to a 1st level initiate immortal.
Ya, I kind of exagerated a bit with that example, but it would still be very difficult. I just wouldn't want the players IMC to think of Immortals as just super-powered monsters, if you know what I mean.
This also touches upon an idea I have about "the law of Immortal intervention". According to the WotI rules, Immortals are not allowed to intervene on the Prime Material (Mystara). I'd like to see that rule modified somehow.
by Chimpman
Some planes might allow an immortal to assume its full power potential, while others might restrict it in various ways (a sliding scale fo sorts between full power and no power). Some planes might only allow the existence of mortal identities, or avatars.
You guys just put a thought in my head - What if the power that an Immortal could use on any given plane was directly proportional to how dominate his sphere was in that plane? This not only places an additional importance on spheres of power (even the name suggests a relation in power), but also can be a cause for why an Immortal would be more powerful in a home plane dominated by his sphere than on the Prime Plane where the spheres are balanced (IIRC). This creates a reason for the Immortals to scheme and plot to increase the dominance of their sphere on a plane (such as the Prime) because it would increase the amount of power they themselves would be able to wield and display.
The only downfall of this idea is the considerable work it would take to create a workable "sliding power scale". What you all think? Does it make sense?
You guys just put a thought in my head - What if the power that an Immortal could use on any given plane was directly proportional to how dominate his sphere was in that plane? This not only places an additional importance on spheres of power (even the name suggests a relation in power), but also can be a cause for why an Immortal would be more powerful in a home plane dominated by his sphere than on the Prime Plane where the spheres are balanced (IIRC). This creates a reason for the Immortals to scheme and plot to increase the dominance of their sphere on a plane (such as the Prime) because it would increase the amount of power they themselves would be able to wield and display.
The only downfall of this idea is the considerable work it would take to create a workable "sliding power scale". What you all think? Does it make sense?
Ok, I'll take a shot at it.
Sphere of Power Traits:
Dominant - The Sphere of power is dominant on this plane. Magic assocaited with this sphere is enhanced. Usually only one or two Spheres are ever dominant on a given plane.
Moderate - The Sphere of power has a moderate presence on this plane. All magic is normal. On the Prime Material Plane, all spheres are moderate.
Absent - The Sphere of Power is absent from this plane. Spells associated with this sphere are impeeded.
This should give us a quick way to describe planes in terms of the spheres. Not sure yet how it would relate to immortal powers though. I'll keep thinking about it.
Sphere of Power Traits:
Dominant - The Sphere of power is dominant on this plane. Magic assocaited with this sphere is enhanced. Usually only one or two Spheres are ever dominant on a given plane. Immortals of the sphere can manifest their full powers here.
Moderate - The Sphere of power has a moderate presence on this plane. All magic is normal. Immortals can only manifest as avatars or mortal identities here. On the Prime Material Plane, all spheres are moderate.
Restricted - The Sphere of Power has only a small presence on this plane. Spells associated with this sphere are impeeded. Immortals can only manifest as mortal identities here.
Absent - The Sphere of Power is absent from this plane. Spells associated with this sphere can not be cast. Immortals can only manifest as mortal identities here. If their mortal identities are killed on this plane a portion of their power is lost and can not be regained.
This way immortals are actually restricted (by the laws of the multiverse) from manifesting their full powers on the Prime... but they are still able to manifest as avatars or mortal identities. Restricting the activities of avatars could still be the responsibility of immortal "police".
Here is the thought: Could the Old Ones actually be trying to "create" that last inner/elemental plane using the NoS as some sort of focal point. Once the NoS has drained enough energy from the Prime they will use it to actually form the positive energy plane. We may already be seeing that distinction among the ranks of the immortals as radiance immortals distance themselves from their fellows in energy.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
- Immortal 'special power' selection gets subsumed into Immortal-level Feats. Immortals get one feat per character level (a total of 30 character levels, as Estlor noted) - as Immortal Feat selection is the main thing that distinguishes different Immortal characters, they need a *lot* of feats available.
- Immortal Feats *include* special powers, but aren't limited to special powers. You can also use feats to get a devoted set of mortal followers, an improved clerical body, or a corps of outsiders that serve you. Another set of Immortal-level feats can improve your home plane or grant additional planes under your control. Other sets of Immortal-level feats might improve your ability to Plot or to craft or use Artifacts.
- Immortal-level rules need to include some sort of mechanics for running Plots and engaging in other Immortal-level business. IMHO, an Immortals campaign is not dealing with the characters so much as individuals (who can adventure) but rather as leaders of religions - and so an Immortals game should be broader than 'Big glowy unkillable adventurer-types running the Nightmare Dimension Dungeon'. :D Games like Aria and Brave New World could offer some starting points for this sort of thing.
- An Immortals-level campaign should have some room for potential threats other than hostile Immortals. Outer Beings are a possibility; so are the Blackmoorian 'Hierarchy Lords' and such that John Calvin suggested in his Exiles Campaign awhile back. Maybe the Draeden could be fleshed out, given servants able to act on a smaller scale and (alien) motivations to act. Any additional thoughts on this?
I've been thinking for awhile about a 3E conversion/expansion of the Immortals rules found in Wrath. I'll try to go into more detail later (when I have time to type up some mostly-fragmentary notes) but here are my main thoughts:
I've been thinking along the smae lines for quite a while, but have never had the time to actually work anything out. If you can fleash any of those ideas out I'd love to see them.
- An Immortals-level campaign should have some room for potential threats other than hostile Immortals. Outer Beings are a possibility; so are the Blackmoorian 'Hierarchy Lords' and such that John Calvin suggested in his Exiles Campaign awhile back. Maybe the Draeden could be fleshed out, given servants able to act on a smaller scale and (alien) motivations to act. Any additional thoughts on this?
I'll agree to all those you mention. Here are some more possibilities:
- The Fey Courts. These are full of intrigue and populated by immortal beings. Someone from the MML once suggested that the Fey were all once immortals who had been cast down. Perhaps they scheme to regain their former power. Did a search for this on the vaults with no luck, but I know it's around somewhere.
- The Old Ones. Bruce Heard had some ideas on this long ago. See the vaults for more details on the Star of Vanya
- Gerath. He could be an Old One, an Outer Being, a rogue Immortal, or something else... I vote for the something else... ;)
. So, I'll just lay it out and see what happens.Level Progression Chart: Include hit dice, armour class, BAB, etc.. Probably should complete a level progression chart with basic information like this on it first but we'll see. I'm not too familiar with the Epic rules and how they would interact with an Immortal class so this might be best started by someone who is.
Power Points: Do we use the same principle from WotI or re-work it. This could yeild some interesting possibilities for someone who's creative!
Temporary Power: Spent to "buy" mortal level spells, and other things. Use feats to be able to spend TP on various abilities?
Aura Attacks: Feat based? Level based? Question mark based?
Immortal Combat: Epic rules will again interact with this but I'm not sure how.
Improvment of Ability Scores: Are we going to follow the "spend power points" route or perhaps by feats? Or maybe something else.
Immortal Immunities: To mortal magic, mortal poisons, mortal attacks, and others...
Immortal Level Spells: Can include conversions of ones in the WotI book and the creation of new ones...
. Also, changes to mortal level spells as in the original rules.Everything Else: There's all kinds of other things we can look at too such as creating a heavenly body or plane and manipulating them, and feats that can replace the "powers" and "forms" listed in the WotI book. And then there's all the neat, new stuff we can make up...
Well! That's a lot of stuff. If you're interested, start chipping away at it. And btw, the more, the better.
I'd hate to see this project die out but I fully understand that time doesn't allow us to do as much as we'd like. I haven't been able to get into it myself either, yet, but still want to. Any ideas as to how to make things easier for ourselves would extremely appreciated. As stated in another thread, we'll be using the Epic Levels and Deities & Demigods rules to help us out.