Dark Elf Redemption for mages - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dark Elf Redemption for mages

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
baron_the_curse
Sep 13, 2004 13:38:46 As you know an elf that dons the Red Robes is outcast from elven society even it the elf’s alignment is Neutral Good, forever branded a Dark Elf. But can there be redemption for a Red Robe elf in the eyes of the elven Speaker and the community. What if a Neutral Good elf that wears the Red Robes has a genuine change of heart and follows the path of Solinari switching to the White Robes. By the laws of the Conclave this is possible and not even frown upon. Wizards should walk the path that calls to them. But will this elf be ever accepted back into even society? And if not could there be White Robe dark elves out there?
#2
iltharanos
Sep 13, 2004 14:03:45 You cannot be both Neutral Good and a Red Robe. The only alignments valid for Red Robes are Lawful Neutral, Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral.

As for redemption for Dark Elves, there's certainly precedent. Case in point being Alhana Starbreeze.
#3
Charles_Phipps
Sep 13, 2004 14:54:57 I imagine that "recantance" of the sentence is possible NOW that the elves are in exile but prior to the War of Souls was extremely difficult to imagine given that no one was allowed contact with them.

Some great deed wold probably be needed.
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 13, 2004 15:32:25 It's also true that the elves no longer have access to the written documentation of who were dark elves. With them scattered and lacking a centralized government it would be much easier for a dark elf to associate with other elves assuming they refrained from admitting what they were.
#5
baron_the_curse
Sep 13, 2004 16:52:45
You cannot be both Neutral Good and a Red Robe. The only alignments valid for Red Robes are Lawful Neutral, Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral.

As for redemption for Dark Elves, there's certainly precedent. Case in point being Alhana Starbreeze.

The book just says neutral. Which I assume can mean any neutral alignment. But in case your right I'll rephrase what I said. So can a Neutral Red Robe elven mage that joins the the White Robes and becomes Good align be accepted back into elven society. And if not how does elven society deal with the paradox of a dark elf White Robe?
#6
ferratus
Sep 13, 2004 18:37:12 When someone is outcast from elven society it is because it is assumed they have become "stained" by the sin they have commited. It is also assumed that this sin clings to them, and no matter what the dark elf does he cannot be forgiven or absolved of that sin. It is similar to one of the justifications for capital punishment. The other two justifications of course is that as the most horrible punishment they can pass it serves as a deterrant, and it permanently removes a potential threat from the community.

A dark elf might redeem himself and return to being a champion of good, but that stain from his sin will forever be upon his soul. His emotional state and personality does not matter.

Now the campaign setting books do not talk about how the issue of dark elves is handled now that all of the elves are in exile. I'm wondering if that is because they plan to return the elves to one of the kingdoms (or found a new one in Nightlund) and do not want their sourcebooks to be dated. However, given given that it will be at least 3-5 years without an answer (when the Elven Exile trilogy is finished) it is rather frustrating. It is after all, a core question of how elven society in exile now works.

Myself, I like to think that the elves have learned the value of forgiveness. I like to think that they now know what it is to be suffering, hungry and alone. I like to think that they've lost so many loved ones that they cannot bear to part with more. So I think they will try to redeem their own instead of banishing them.
#7
baron_the_curse
Sep 13, 2004 18:58:29 Very well said Ferratus.
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 13, 2004 21:15:22 Chances are, the "prohibition" of wearing of the Red Robes (as well as black ones) is as much a custom and tradition as it is anything else. Yes, it is possible to be a Nuetral Good Red Robe. However the custom does state that Red and Black Robes are cast out of Silvanesti society.

Remember, that this prohibition only applies in the Silvanesti and Qualinesti Nations. Dalamar may well be a dark elf outcast of the Silvanesti, but in the Tower of High Sorcery, he will be just as much an equal as any Silvanesti White Robes are. chances are, the White Robes of Silvanesit probably know that it isa bogus ritual, but see it as a cultural/political thing, and thus outside of the ORder's reach.

I am sure they will speak together as friends and kin when they are within the Towers of High Sorcery.
#9
baron_the_curse
Sep 14, 2004 15:48:53
Chances are, the "prohibition" of wearing of the Red Robes (as well as black ones) is as much a custom and tradition as it is anything else. Yes, it is possible to be a Nuetral Good Red Robe. However the custom does state that Red and Black Robes are cast out of Silvanesti society.

Remember, that this prohibition only applies in the Silvanesti and Qualinesti Nations. Dalamar may well be a dark elf outcast of the Silvanesti, but in the Tower of High Sorcery, he will be just as much an equal as any Silvanesti White Robes are. chances are, the White Robes of Silvanesit probably know that it isa bogus ritual, but see it as a cultural/political thing, and thus outside of the ORder's reach.
I am sure they will speak together as friends and kin when they are within the Towers of High Sorcery.

We know this already though. What I’m wondering, are the elves so blind that they would not allow for redemption of a Red Robe? It is the teachings of Paladine that his children should help guide those who have fallen back into the Light. Paladine’s teachings focus on aiding first, never condemning, and lastly using force against Evil if redemption is not possible. A Knight of Neraka, who abandons his order because he is disgusted by what they have become, and converts to the Light, could become a Solamnic Knight after he proofs himself worthy. Now, are the elves so totalitarian in their judgment that those cast out, as Dark Elves for minor “or” political reasons, can never return to the Light? For example, all elves are now exiled, and it is better known that Starbreeze was not guiltily of any conspiracy, and in fact was the victim of one that led to her Exile. Do most Silvanesti still consider her a Dark Elf?
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 14, 2004 20:22:58
We know this already though. What I’m wondering, are the elves so blind that they would not allow for redemption of a Red Robe? It is the teachings of Paladine that his children should help guide those who have fallen back into the Light. Paladine’s teachings focus on aiding first, never condemning, and lastly using force against Evil if redemption is not possible. A Knight of Neraka, who abandons his order because he is disgusted by what they have become, and converts to the Light, could become a Solamnic Knight after he proofs himself worthy. Now, are the elves so totalitarian in their judgment that those cast out, as Dark Elves for minor “or” political reasons, can never return to the Light? For example, all elves are now exiled, and it is better known that Starbreeze was not guiltily of any conspiracy, and in fact was the victim of one that led to her Exile. Do most Silvanesti still consider her a Dark Elf?

Well, I have to see it this way.

I don't believe there is a "mark of caine" that goes upon a Dark Elf when they become one. It is no different, when you look at it, then being found guilty in a court of law and imprisioned or what. You still look and act and feel the same. It is a social aspect, becoming a Dark Elf. I imagine that at least the Silvanesti have the custom that only White Robes are allowed within society and DarkElfdom to any whom become Red or Black Robes. It is probably some long standing custom, but it only applies there.

To answer the end, your question (and understand that I generally do not acknowledge anything that happened come the Chaos War, as I reject it as pure crap)....

1) I think at least the Silvanesti are judgemental enough that once cast out, they will never allow a Dark Elf back. No matter what Dalamar has done, they won't let him back in. The Kagonesti probably are as well.

2) Now that the Silvanesti have no home....I guess they probably won't consider her an outcast anymore, no.
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 15, 2004 12:18:44 Alhana and Porthios while being named dark elves were never dark. This was doen for purely political machinations to keep the elves from either uniting or being able to be effective in the War against the Dark Knights/
#12
zombiegleemax
Sep 15, 2004 20:28:50 Well, that is what I mean. A true Dark Elf consorts with Evil, via worship of the Gods of Darkness or donning the Black Robes. I don't see Elves whom fall aprey to Social problems (Alhana and Porthios) or an elf whom takes his test and comes out a Red Robe as being true Dark Elves.
#13
baron_the_curse
Sep 15, 2004 21:38:50 So I guess there is no redemption. I’m assuming though that in the long history of High Sorcery there must have been at least a handful of elves that switched from the Red Robes to the White Robes. Politically I wonder how the elves respond to this. What does the Speaker tell a Solamnic Knight emissary when he questions the Speaker why does his White Robe elven friend remains exile from his homeland when he has found the true path of Light? Makes the elves seem narrow minded, dangerous do-gooders reminiscent of Istar.

DmJoe, I can’t look at it using our system of law, because someone found guilty in a court of law is sent to prison to rehabilitate, barring a serious life-sentence. When they return to society the “convict mark” while not pretty on their record is not as damning as say the status of “Dark Elf” in Ansalon. Plenty of convicts lead normal lives when they leave prison.
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2004 0:39:39 Well, I understand where you are coming from. I would wonder what would happen if in House Magus in the Silvanesti, what would happen if some prodigy Elf was coming thru their academy of magic that is no doubt located within Silvanost. This mage probably is the scion of powerfull politics within the Silvanesti Nation. Obviously attended all social functions within the Silvanesti when he was not studying or learning his way's of magic. Perhaps an arranged marriage already with some well connected lord or lady of House Protector is already arranged.

Of course, like all Mages, he must travel to the Tower of High Sorcery in Wayreath to take his test......

But for whatever reasons, when he emerges from the Tower and his Test....he is wearing the Red Robes.......

Amongst Magic Users, he is still a Wizard. Even among Elven Wizards, they respect him as a peer within the Orders of High Sorcery.

But the fact that he has violated Tenets of the Silvanesti is a different matter.

If you were the above Elf Mage, would you even bother returning to Silvanost, knowing what awaits you, ie, being declared a Dark Elf and banishment. Would you go back and see what happens? Send word that he has a new robe? Send work back anonymously that you died during the Test?

Among House Magus, I imagine they are all aware that there is some reason why the Magic brings about whatever it decides to bring about during the test. But would still be bound by the laws of the Silvanesti and thus accept his "dark elf" status, even though they will still accept him as a bretheren while within the Towers of High Sorcery.
#15
true_blue
Sep 16, 2004 3:46:38 I really don't think there is any way that the pre-War of Souls elves would accept someone back who started out not being a White Robe. Even if someone they did let you back, would you want to be the person who everyone whispers about, talking about your "forray with evil"? I think most elves see it as once evil, always a little tainted with evil. And they consider neutral pretty dang close.

I think sometimes we hold these races and people up to a strict code of conduct that isn't sometimes realistic. Like saying that elves should know better and be able to see past all this stuff. People have faults and one of the elves faults is very strict and rigid codes. Its the way they have functioned for thousands of years. And some people expect them to just "get with the times" and change? Thats what humans are like.. not necessarily elves. And also a lot of things people think these races or people should automatically do or realize.. real people in this world don't always do so. So I don't see it as so bad that the elves exile other elves who don't see their way of thinking. If its their society, and they see a few people who go against what the majority want, I understand them not wanting them around. They are Silvanesti/Qualinesti, not the USA. They don't automatically have to follow our "modern" way of thinking, even if we think its the "right" thing to do

I've seen people show disinterest or outright hate for elves and their ways, but me personally, they are one of the main things that drew me into Dragonlance, along with the WoHS. I don't like the line of thinking I seem to see, where everyone wants all the races to realize their faults and start all being nice and perfect. I like it better when I see faults in races and subraces because I think its more realistic. I hate worlds where theres 1 or 2 races that are the "evil" races and everyone else are the nice, kind people trying to rehabilitate that race(s) or fighting against them all the time. In Dragonlance, I like to see the potential for good and evil in every single race, and you never know if one group will be different than the other group of that race.
#16
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2004 14:35:44 So was Alhana redeemed because of who she is or what she did? Would that reconciliation also apply to Porthios as well? He could simply be forgiven by his nephew couldnt he?
#17
true_blue
Sep 16, 2004 15:21:40 I'm sure Gilthas could attempt to reconcile the fates of Alhana and Porthios and "pardon" them. I think the elven society still has a lot to say about stuff though, and if the Senators didn't like this they would recant it. While Gilthas is getting stronger and becoming more like a ruler, he still isn't there yet where the people follow him unquestionably. Nothing like Solostron or Lorac.

Btw, Amaron do you really need to respond to each and every one of these threads? You answered about 10 in the span of like 7 minutes or so with one line or two. Doesn't add a lot in most cases, this thread maybe being the exception. Seems sometimes you kill the topic. I dunno, its kind of just got to the ridiculous phase now. At first I thought maybe you just wanted to make friends, but now I almost think you do it to annoy people heh.. because it works.
#18
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2004 15:32:30 thanks for your opinion. Would you like to go into a discourse on this as well? If you want to see how a true discourse is set up trying reading the Gosepl of St. John, now those are discourses True Blue.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 baron_the_curse Sep 13, 2004 13:38:46	As you know an elf that dons the Red Robes is outcast from elven society even it the elf’s alignment is Neutral Good, forever branded a Dark Elf. But can there be redemption for a Red Robe elf in the eyes of the elven Speaker and the community. What if a Neutral Good elf that wears the Red Robes has a genuine change of heart and follows the path of Solinari switching to the White Robes. By the laws of the Conclave this is possible and not even frown upon. Wizards should walk the path that calls to them. But will this elf be ever accepted back into even society? And if not could there be White Robe dark elves out there?
#2 iltharanos Sep 13, 2004 14:03:45	You cannot be both Neutral Good and a Red Robe. The only alignments valid for Red Robes are Lawful Neutral, Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral. As for redemption for Dark Elves, there's certainly precedent. Case in point being Alhana Starbreeze.
#3 Charles_Phipps Sep 13, 2004 14:54:57	I imagine that "recantance" of the sentence is possible NOW that the elves are in exile but prior to the War of Souls was extremely difficult to imagine given that no one was allowed contact with them. Some great deed wold probably be needed.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 13, 2004 15:32:25	It's also true that the elves no longer have access to the written documentation of who were dark elves. With them scattered and lacking a centralized government it would be much easier for a dark elf to associate with other elves assuming they refrained from admitting what they were.
#5 baron_the_curse Sep 13, 2004 16:52:45	You cannot be both Neutral Good and a Red Robe. The only alignments valid for Red Robes are Lawful Neutral, Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral. As for redemption for Dark Elves, there's certainly precedent. Case in point being Alhana Starbreeze. The book just says neutral. Which I assume can mean any neutral alignment. But in case your right I'll rephrase what I said. So can a Neutral Red Robe elven mage that joins the the White Robes and becomes Good align be accepted back into elven society. And if not how does elven society deal with the paradox of a dark elf White Robe?
#6 ferratus Sep 13, 2004 18:37:12	When someone is outcast from elven society it is because it is assumed they have become "stained" by the sin they have commited. It is also assumed that this sin clings to them, and no matter what the dark elf does he cannot be forgiven or absolved of that sin. It is similar to one of the justifications for capital punishment. The other two justifications of course is that as the most horrible punishment they can pass it serves as a deterrant, and it permanently removes a potential threat from the community. A dark elf might redeem himself and return to being a champion of good, but that stain from his sin will forever be upon his soul. His emotional state and personality does not matter. Now the campaign setting books do not talk about how the issue of dark elves is handled now that all of the elves are in exile. I'm wondering if that is because they plan to return the elves to one of the kingdoms (or found a new one in Nightlund) and do not want their sourcebooks to be dated. However, given given that it will be at least 3-5 years without an answer (when the Elven Exile trilogy is finished) it is rather frustrating. It is after all, a core question of how elven society in exile now works. Myself, I like to think that the elves have learned the value of forgiveness. I like to think that they now know what it is to be suffering, hungry and alone. I like to think that they've lost so many loved ones that they cannot bear to part with more. So I think they will try to redeem their own instead of banishing them.
#7 baron_the_curse Sep 13, 2004 18:58:29	Very well said Ferratus.
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 13, 2004 21:15:22	Chances are, the "prohibition" of wearing of the Red Robes (as well as black ones) is as much a custom and tradition as it is anything else. Yes, it is possible to be a Nuetral Good Red Robe. However the custom does state that Red and Black Robes are cast out of Silvanesti society. Remember, that this prohibition only applies in the Silvanesti and Qualinesti Nations. Dalamar may well be a dark elf outcast of the Silvanesti, but in the Tower of High Sorcery, he will be just as much an equal as any Silvanesti White Robes are. chances are, the White Robes of Silvanesit probably know that it isa bogus ritual, but see it as a cultural/political thing, and thus outside of the ORder's reach. I am sure they will speak together as friends and kin when they are within the Towers of High Sorcery.
#9 baron_the_curse Sep 14, 2004 15:48:53	Chances are, the "prohibition" of wearing of the Red Robes (as well as black ones) is as much a custom and tradition as it is anything else. Yes, it is possible to be a Nuetral Good Red Robe. However the custom does state that Red and Black Robes are cast out of Silvanesti society. Remember, that this prohibition only applies in the Silvanesti and Qualinesti Nations. Dalamar may well be a dark elf outcast of the Silvanesti, but in the Tower of High Sorcery, he will be just as much an equal as any Silvanesti White Robes are. chances are, the White Robes of Silvanesit probably know that it isa bogus ritual, but see it as a cultural/political thing, and thus outside of the ORder's reach. I am sure they will speak together as friends and kin when they are within the Towers of High Sorcery. We know this already though. What I’m wondering, are the elves so blind that they would not allow for redemption of a Red Robe? It is the teachings of Paladine that his children should help guide those who have fallen back into the Light. Paladine’s teachings focus on aiding first, never condemning, and lastly using force against Evil if redemption is not possible. A Knight of Neraka, who abandons his order because he is disgusted by what they have become, and converts to the Light, could become a Solamnic Knight after he proofs himself worthy. Now, are the elves so totalitarian in their judgment that those cast out, as Dark Elves for minor “or” political reasons, can never return to the Light? For example, all elves are now exiled, and it is better known that Starbreeze was not guiltily of any conspiracy, and in fact was the victim of one that led to her Exile. Do most Silvanesti still consider her a Dark Elf?
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 14, 2004 20:22:58	We know this already though. What I’m wondering, are the elves so blind that they would not allow for redemption of a Red Robe? It is the teachings of Paladine that his children should help guide those who have fallen back into the Light. Paladine’s teachings focus on aiding first, never condemning, and lastly using force against Evil if redemption is not possible. A Knight of Neraka, who abandons his order because he is disgusted by what they have become, and converts to the Light, could become a Solamnic Knight after he proofs himself worthy. Now, are the elves so totalitarian in their judgment that those cast out, as Dark Elves for minor “or” political reasons, can never return to the Light? For example, all elves are now exiled, and it is better known that Starbreeze was not guiltily of any conspiracy, and in fact was the victim of one that led to her Exile. Do most Silvanesti still consider her a Dark Elf? Well, I have to see it this way. I don't believe there is a "mark of caine" that goes upon a Dark Elf when they become one. It is no different, when you look at it, then being found guilty in a court of law and imprisioned or what. You still look and act and feel the same. It is a social aspect, becoming a Dark Elf. I imagine that at least the Silvanesti have the custom that only White Robes are allowed within society and DarkElfdom to any whom become Red or Black Robes. It is probably some long standing custom, but it only applies there. To answer the end, your question (and understand that I generally do not acknowledge anything that happened come the Chaos War, as I reject it as pure crap).... 1) I think at least the Silvanesti are judgemental enough that once cast out, they will never allow a Dark Elf back. No matter what Dalamar has done, they won't let him back in. The Kagonesti probably are as well. 2) Now that the Silvanesti have no home....I guess they probably won't consider her an outcast anymore, no.
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 15, 2004 12:18:44	Alhana and Porthios while being named dark elves were never dark. This was doen for purely political machinations to keep the elves from either uniting or being able to be effective in the War against the Dark Knights/
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 15, 2004 20:28:50	Well, that is what I mean. A true Dark Elf consorts with Evil, via worship of the Gods of Darkness or donning the Black Robes. I don't see Elves whom fall aprey to Social problems (Alhana and Porthios) or an elf whom takes his test and comes out a Red Robe as being true Dark Elves.
#13 baron_the_curse Sep 15, 2004 21:38:50	So I guess there is no redemption. I’m assuming though that in the long history of High Sorcery there must have been at least a handful of elves that switched from the Red Robes to the White Robes. Politically I wonder how the elves respond to this. What does the Speaker tell a Solamnic Knight emissary when he questions the Speaker why does his White Robe elven friend remains exile from his homeland when he has found the true path of Light? Makes the elves seem narrow minded, dangerous do-gooders reminiscent of Istar. DmJoe, I can’t look at it using our system of law, because someone found guilty in a court of law is sent to prison to rehabilitate, barring a serious life-sentence. When they return to society the “convict mark” while not pretty on their record is not as damning as say the status of “Dark Elf” in Ansalon. Plenty of convicts lead normal lives when they leave prison.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2004 0:39:39	Well, I understand where you are coming from. I would wonder what would happen if in House Magus in the Silvanesti, what would happen if some prodigy Elf was coming thru their academy of magic that is no doubt located within Silvanost. This mage probably is the scion of powerfull politics within the Silvanesti Nation. Obviously attended all social functions within the Silvanesti when he was not studying or learning his way's of magic. Perhaps an arranged marriage already with some well connected lord or lady of House Protector is already arranged. Of course, like all Mages, he must travel to the Tower of High Sorcery in Wayreath to take his test...... But for whatever reasons, when he emerges from the Tower and his Test....he is wearing the Red Robes....... Amongst Magic Users, he is still a Wizard. Even among Elven Wizards, they respect him as a peer within the Orders of High Sorcery. But the fact that he has violated Tenets of the Silvanesti is a different matter. If you were the above Elf Mage, would you even bother returning to Silvanost, knowing what awaits you, ie, being declared a Dark Elf and banishment. Would you go back and see what happens? Send word that he has a new robe? Send work back anonymously that you died during the Test? Among House Magus, I imagine they are all aware that there is some reason why the Magic brings about whatever it decides to bring about during the test. But would still be bound by the laws of the Silvanesti and thus accept his "dark elf" status, even though they will still accept him as a bretheren while within the Towers of High Sorcery.
#15 true_blue Sep 16, 2004 3:46:38	I really don't think there is any way that the pre-War of Souls elves would accept someone back who started out not being a White Robe. Even if someone they did let you back, would you want to be the person who everyone whispers about, talking about your "forray with evil"? I think most elves see it as once evil, always a little tainted with evil. And they consider neutral pretty dang close. I think sometimes we hold these races and people up to a strict code of conduct that isn't sometimes realistic. Like saying that elves should know better and be able to see past all this stuff. People have faults and one of the elves faults is very strict and rigid codes. Its the way they have functioned for thousands of years. And some people expect them to just "get with the times" and change? Thats what humans are like.. not necessarily elves. And also a lot of things people think these races or people should automatically do or realize.. real people in this world don't always do so. So I don't see it as so bad that the elves exile other elves who don't see their way of thinking. If its their society, and they see a few people who go against what the majority want, I understand them not wanting them around. They are Silvanesti/Qualinesti, not the USA. They don't automatically have to follow our "modern" way of thinking, even if we think its the "right" thing to do I've seen people show disinterest or outright hate for elves and their ways, but me personally, they are one of the main things that drew me into Dragonlance, along with the WoHS. I don't like the line of thinking I seem to see, where everyone wants all the races to realize their faults and start all being nice and perfect. I like it better when I see faults in races and subraces because I think its more realistic. I hate worlds where theres 1 or 2 races that are the "evil" races and everyone else are the nice, kind people trying to rehabilitate that race(s) or fighting against them all the time. In Dragonlance, I like to see the potential for good and evil in every single race, and you never know if one group will be different than the other group of that race.
#16 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2004 14:35:44	So was Alhana redeemed because of who she is or what she did? Would that reconciliation also apply to Porthios as well? He could simply be forgiven by his nephew couldnt he?
#17 true_blue Sep 16, 2004 15:21:40	I'm sure Gilthas could attempt to reconcile the fates of Alhana and Porthios and "pardon" them. I think the elven society still has a lot to say about stuff though, and if the Senators didn't like this they would recant it. While Gilthas is getting stronger and becoming more like a ruler, he still isn't there yet where the people follow him unquestionably. Nothing like Solostron or Lorac. Btw, Amaron do you really need to respond to each and every one of these threads? You answered about 10 in the span of like 7 minutes or so with one line or two. Doesn't add a lot in most cases, this thread maybe being the exception. Seems sometimes you kill the topic. I dunno, its kind of just got to the ridiculous phase now. At first I thought maybe you just wanted to make friends, but now I almost think you do it to annoy people heh.. because it works.
#18 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2004 15:32:30	thanks for your opinion. Would you like to go into a discourse on this as well? If you want to see how a true discourse is set up trying reading the Gosepl of St. John, now those are discourses True Blue.