Just curious what people's thoughts were on this? If Keltis/Oronis and the lizard men of the last sea knew that the other still exsisted how would they react to one another?
As long as he was on the Path of the Preserver I can only think of two possibilities.
One: He would know they are there and do nothing, feeling that he has already done to much for them.
Two: He would try to do something to make it up to them without tipping his hat to the other SK's. He may possibly decide to create an enclave for them in New Kurn.
It would make for an interesting plot for an adventure.
I would think that Oronis would feel relieved at first and then great guilt later. I could even see him going as far as turning himself over to the lizard folk to face their justice.
It would make for an interesting plot for an adventure.
I don't know if he would do that. One of the tests to enter the Veiled Alliance is to ask a petitioner if he were to come upon a dying plant, would he give up the last of his water to save it. The answer is no. He can do more by keeping his water and living than by saving one plant. Oronis can do more for Athas by living (I would think genocide's penalty is death) than by dying.
I don't know if he would do that. One of the tests to enter the Veiled Alliance is to ask a petitioner if he were to come upon a dying plant, would he give up the last of his water to save it. The answer is no. He can do more by keeping his water and living than by saving one plant. Oronis can do more for Athas by living (I would think genocide's penalty is death) than by dying.
Valid points, but he almost wiped out their entire race. I would think Oronis being a creature of good would want to make amends and then some I'm sure. Overwhelming guilt over what he had done caused him to give up being a dragon to become an avagon in the past. By his very nature Oronis is a being of conscience and was ruled by it enough to make a life altering change. I'd think this same conscience would want him to face the lizard men in the hope of further redemption.
So DMs should ask themselves how they characterize each of the factions, decide which one is more morally pure, and have that side get utterly annihilated.
Addtionally, what if it was the lizard men who found out Keltis was still alive? Would they try to hunt him down and take revenge?
I think that would be doubtful. For one, They would have to know that Oronis was once Keltis; two, they couldn't just walk down to Kurn wanting his head (the sun burns their skin, or so it says in Mind Lords of the Last Sea); and lastly, they may have forgotten exactly what happened all those millenia ago unless they kept records/have a strong oral story history.
The best they could hope for would be that maybe Oronis would show up around Saragar, then the fight would be on, not that it would be much of one. Oronis might not stand and fight, though, being good, he might try to explain what's going on, or maybe his guilt would get him. As you said, it would make a great plot.
I think that would be doubtful. For one, They would have to know that Oronis was once Keltis; two, they couldn't just walk down to Kurn wanting his head (the sun burns their skin, or so it says in Mind Lords of the Last Sea); and lastly, they may have forgotten exactly what happened all those millenia ago unless they kept records/have a strong oral story history.
The best they could hope for would be that maybe Oronis would show up around Saragar, then the fight would be on, not that it would be much of one. Oronis might not stand and fight, though, being good, he might try to explain what's going on, or maybe his guilt would get him. As you said, it would make a great plot.
It being a great plot line is what I'm getting at. Oronis standing trial for his past atrocities against the lizard men. The players would need to take the role of defending Oronis giving proof that he has changed and truly reformed.
The Mind Lords would no doubt play a part as well. I'm sure they have not forgotten about the incident at the Scorched Plateau.
It being a great plot line is what I'm getting at. Oronis standing trial for his past atrocities against the lizard men. The players would need to take the role of defending Oronis giving proof that he has changed and truly reformed.
I would be careful though with what this could mean for Oronis and New Kurn. The trial of Keltis/Oronis and his very possible death sentence could mean a definite downslide for the forces of good (which are already declining) at high speeds. But heck! Maybe that's what you want. This would be the end of a major force of good and getting another one as powerful would touch the realm of impossibility (Dark Sun being as it is).
Personnally, I believe Oronis would probably work for the Lizard men from the shadows if at all. He is trying to build a better place locally for now and hasn't acted on anything (officially anyways) on matters outside Kurn and for good reasons: he must keep a low profile (which means not being a thorn in anybody's side AND not having one in his). To me, he would need to train another as wise and in favor of Kurn as himself if that's possible (not likely) and place him in the seat of power of Kurn in order to detach himself from his city to take actions against anybody with considerable power or ask the Lizard men for forgivness.
The plot would be a good one though... if you're willing to put Oronis/Keltis in the spotlight.
Just my opinion...
PB
I would be careful though with what this could mean for Oronis and New Kurn. The trial of Keltis/Oronis and his very possible death sentence could mean a definite downslide for the forces of good (which are already declining) at high speeds. But heck! Maybe that's what you want. This would be the end of a major force of good and getting another one as powerful would touch the realm of impossibility (Dark Sun being as it is).
I don't think this would risk him being discovered by the SKs. They don't even realize that the lizard men or the Last Sea exsist. The only risk he would face would be the wrath of the Mind Lords.
I don't think this would risk him being discovered by the SKs. They don't even realize that the lizard men or the Last Sea exsist. The only risk he would face would be wrath of the Mind Lords.
Don't realize, or don't care?
Don't realize, or don't care?
At this point in the current timeline they could probably give a damn. At least till he starts flaunting his Avangion powers, and he's way too wise for that.
Don't realize, or don't care?
Good point. I think its more than likely both that they don't really care enough to realize the exsistance of the Last Sea or the lizard men living there.
Good point. I think its more than likely both that they don't really care enough to realize the exsistance of the Last Sea or the lizard men living there.
Well, the thing is - while the Dragon reigned, they all had their duties to provide the necessary number of slaves to meet their quotas, which means they had to have a sufficient population, or at least quick access to a sufficient population to provide the quota (by raiding nearby villiages and tribes) for the quota. As such, that did tend to be a pretty strong focus, and leaving their city-states were generaly not top priority. Now - the Sorcerer-Kings could have been told, by Keltis, at one point, about the Mind Lords. They also could have stumbled by that region at some point themselves during the Cleansing Wars. However, while the priority was to provide the requisite quota of lives to help the Dragon reinforce the spells, and the fact the Mind Lords appear either unwilling or inable to leave that Region, most likely, some of them have forgotten that distant realm - or have assumed that the Dragon wiped them out (much as they tended to think the same of Kurn and Eldaaritch). So, while the odds are that they know *of* the Saragar region, they honestly couldn't give a damn. They've got their own politics and local problems to deal with.
With the death of the Dragon, as well as a handful of their "siblings", the release of Rajaat and apparently subsiquent resecuring of him by a changed mortal woman, with the Great Earthquake upon them, and the rebuilding of their cities - the surviving Sorcerer-Kings, once again, are pretty well distracted from being concerned with the Last Sea region. Now, if they heard of an Avangion roaming the lands (which they obviously have some knowledge of, possibly instinctual), I think that they could very well see such a being as an immediate threat to their very existence, rise, and deal with it before it becomes even more of a problem. They'd also find Kurn, and most likely either totally raze it (as Hamanu has been known to do in the past), or divide the population and enslave them. They'd find Daskinor out too, which all in all may not be a good thing for them, but they could very well end his miserable existence at the same time - especially since Daskinor was close to Oronis geographically and didn't do anything - effectively at least permitting something worse than a traitor to exist near him.
So, there's a lot of good reasons for Oronis, especially now, to stay hidden. Where before there was Borys to contend with primarily, Borys, for all his power, was only one Dragon. Hamanu, Lalai-Puy and Nibenay are three. And the odds are even less in his favor then - especially with Hamanu's habit of offing Champions left and right through history (ok, not necessarily left and right, but still...)
Even if they knew of the Mind Lords I'm sure an individual SK would be hesitant to engage them by themselves. I would think even a lone Dragon would be hard pressed to take on three 30+ level psions sigle handedly.
TRue enough, but the concern would be that 3 dragons would e taking on 3 epic psions.
TRue enough, but the concern would be that 3 dragons would e taking on 3 epic psions.
The Mind Lords (as unhinged as they are) would be more apt to work together than 3 SK IMO.
The Mind Lords (as unhinged as they are) would be more apt to work together than 3 SK IMO.
Well, considering that I onl see the SK's bothering with the Mind Lords if they saw some sort of threat, I'd tend to think that they would work together. The SK's, while rivals, do band together against common threats.
For argument sake, lets say that Oronis did come before the lizard men to stand "trial" for his past crimes as Keltis. How do you think the lizard men would react?
Would they flee, out right act him, give him a fair trial, etc?
Thoughts?
This thread has sort of gone off topic. Let me try to stear it back in the right direction.
For argument sake, lets say that Oronis did come before the lizard men to stand "trial" for his past crimes as Keltis. How do you think the lizard men would react?
Would they flee, out right act him, give him a fair trial, etc?
Thoughts?
Again, it's hard to say whether they even remember, since there's nothing in their writeup so far stating that they have a written history and keep up with it.
So if he came to them and showed them evidence of what he did, they would probably just accept his apology and be done with it since they can't remember what really happened in those days.
Hard to hold vehemence towards someone when you can't remember what it was they have done to earn that.
Again, it's hard to say whether they even remember, since there's nothing in their writeup so far stating that they have a written history and keep up with it.
So if he came to them and showed them evidence of what he did, they would probably just accept his apology and be done with it since they can't remember what really happened in those days.
Hard to hold vehemence towards someone when you can't remember what it was they have done to earn that.
There's very little to support that the lizard men didn't keep up with written or oral history as well. Don't forget, Athasian lizard men aren't as savage as they are in other worlds. They are more civillized so much so that they have theri own Psionic Academy under the Last Sea.
PB
Coming out and saying: ''Hi mister lizard-man, sir, I am the one who tried to kill every last one of your ancestors but I am an avangion now so it's OK... sorry about the past, though!'' would probably not be his best bet. He wouldn't come straight out. He would take his time and would get some of the lizardfolk on his side. Maybe acting as a link to their ancestral history. The wise and powerful stranger (maybe even in the form of a lizard-man) would gain their confidence, explainig the way things were back then, make them understand the history of Athas... to let it sink in before he would truly show himself. If the lizardfolk were agressive and wanting revenge, he probably wouldn't show himself or let them have their revenge on an illusion of himself. I don't think he's good (or stupid) enough to give himself up to them... and he certainly wouldn't be hasty, after all Oronis must be pretty patient if he lasted that long.
PB
Those are pretty good points. I could see Oronis trying to gain the lizard mens trust first before coming out and saying he was Keltis and was sorry for past sins he had commited against them.
And there is absolutely no way the lizardmen would have any memory of this, even oral or written tradition wouldn't last over a millenia. Unless they have some pretty powerful mages or psions amogst them using a supernatural mean to gather this information, the lizardmen are oblivious about Oronis.
Are there any other races that remember ever being hunted by a supreme being?
Like I tell my players, it's the extreme paladins that die first.
:88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :fight!: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
The other ones last a few days longer. :D
"Gentle hunter-gatherers with a complex inner life, the
Athasian lizardfolk are living curiosities from another age.
They were preserved from genocide by the Mind Lords and
have never forgotten this kindness."
I guess the Mind Lords could be recording the lizardmen history... but even so, now Oronis probably is a part of their mithology. Either they wouldn't believe him to be that old evil one, or aren't that mad at him anymore.
Hah, maybe the Mind Lords started taking care of the lizards because Oronis asked them to. Maybe I should buy the book before making conclusions.
Hah, maybe the Mind Lords started taking care of the lizards because Oronis asked them to. Maybe I should buy the book before making conclusions
I don't think the Mind Lords are to keen on Keltis due to his last visit to the Last Sea. I doubt they would willingly aid Oronis in anyway. Plus, the Mind Lords are barely able to take care of themselves at this point never mind the lizard men.