What do you think? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

What do you think?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
princeofcincinnati
Sep 15, 2004 18:33:58 Are elves,dwarves and other demi humans fey that have been in this reality so long that they have lost the fey type? It mentions the queen of elves being fey in the Living Greyhawk sourcebook. Is there anything else that backs up that idea? I'm thinking about making a part of my Greyhawk:DarkHorizon campaign.
#2
gv_dammerung
Sep 15, 2004 21:34:38 Interesting. "Fey" is often associated with "faire" and made distinct from "elf." Are D&D elves "faires?" I don't think so in a Victorian sense. Yet, are elves "fey?" I think they can be. Gets kinda circular.

Are D&D dwarves "fey" or "faire?" I don't think so. As they have been developed, I think they are distinct from classic Victorian models.

Gnomes are another matter. I could see them going either way.

Ultimately, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I think it depends on the flavor you are looking for. The D&D demihuman feel,to me, is distinct from what I think of as "faire" coming out of the Victorian period.

In GH, I think the distinction is drawn between elves and the "fey" or "faire" by reference to elves apart from those descriptives and by specific reference to "Fey Mysteries," as if the quality of being "fey" or "faire" is distinct from ordinary elvenness. But having said this, Celene is called a "faire" kingdom. However, other elven enclaves are not similarly described. So, Celene appears to have a special character distinct from other elves, or it is just an honorific. I tend toward the latter.

IMO, elves are not "fairies" like brownies, pixies etc. But they are related in so far as they can, volitionally assume "fey" characteristics and ultimately transform into "faire." In 3E, I guess they would get a "template." I've never defined it so precisely in actual play, as it hasn't come up, but that is the way I think I would handle it.

I'm interested to see how others approach it.

GVD
#3
Halberkill
Sep 16, 2004 10:09:32 Grey Elves are closer tied to the realms of Faerie. Hence the orcish graffitti on the wall in the slavelords module "Grey Elves are fairies". being kind of a double entendre. They are fey, and they are fairies in the sense of not being manly like an orc.

3rd edition rules can bite my buttocks with the need for a template for everything.

Halber
#4
princeofcincinnati
Sep 24, 2004 12:49:46 Any others with thoughts on this?
#5
gadodel
Sep 24, 2004 20:31:55
Are elves,dwarves and other demi humans fey that have been in this reality so long that they have lost the fey type?

Yep...they are a watered down sort of Fey.
#6
Elendur
Sep 27, 2004 10:23:04 Elves are related to fey, sure. Dwarves are definitely not. Gnomes are questionable, I'd say no.
The Celene thing is interesting. It's very much an unknown area in my campaign. I can see a certain segment of the elves there having fey characteristic(perhaps the royal family). In 3e that could just mean change their type from humanoid to fey.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 27, 2004 21:55:48 In general, I think that after some generations on Oerth (different with each "race"), a creature loses its extra-planar origins. For example, in old discussions with Rasgon, we imagined what connections oni, ogre magi, bakemono, jebline, xvarts, and gnolls (in no particular order) have with cambions (including alu-demons).

Stated another way, what differences exist between minotaurs on Oerth and those winding their way through some labyrinth of Hell?
#8
OleOneEye
Sep 28, 2004 0:51:44 I tend to think of the elves as a militant offshoot of the fey. Their primary purpose on Oerth as the guardians of their less warlike cousins.

And to suggest that a dwarf is in any way related to the fey would be among the gravest of insults to the dour folk.
#9
princeofcincinnati
Sep 29, 2004 18:26:52 But in most litature dwarves,gnomes and such are fey or at least elementals.
#10
OleOneEye
Sep 30, 2004 1:44:11 I understand that most human literature regarding dwur or noniz comes from the Flan, telling great fables from before the Great Migrations. However, one has to realize that the Flan are going to inject their own paradigms into the fables. The Flan connect everything back to the Oerth Mother, interchangeably using words like "fey," "spirits," "elementals," and whatnot to explain that which they do not understand. In relation to the categorization of species, we are truly indebted to the Suel Fleshcrafters of House Zierto. In furtherance of their transmutational arts, they began the first etymological studies of the various humanoid races of the Flanneass c. -150 CY. Their works are the first I know of that divest themselves of religious trappings and look at the biological characteristics that connect and/or separate the species. I think their works are quite conclusive that the dwarves are neither fey nor elemental. Alas, the Aerdi overran House Zierto's strongholds and disbanded the house. Practically all of their works were destroyed, as the Oeridians were far more interested in conquest and plunder than scientific thought. One remaining tome is noted to be kept at Rel Deven. A couple centuries later, unrest against the Overkings began to foment in the western provinces, notably Ferrond and Nyrond. Commoners of both lands came to venerate the old Flannish gods in defiance of their Aerdy lords. Thus, gods like Beory, Pelor, and Rao spread worship among Ferrond, Nyrond, and satellites. Upon secession of the various states, their rulers each sanctioned churches of several of the Flannish gods. This is why various fables and legends of the Flannish people still infect the Flaneass. Anything that the villagers cannot explain they call fey or spirits rather than biological classifications. I admire the recent attempts by Grey College to purge all classes that teach Flan fable as fact.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 princeofcincinnati Sep 15, 2004 18:33:58	Are elves,dwarves and other demi humans fey that have been in this reality so long that they have lost the fey type? It mentions the queen of elves being fey in the Living Greyhawk sourcebook. Is there anything else that backs up that idea? I'm thinking about making a part of my Greyhawk:DarkHorizon campaign.
#2 gv_dammerung Sep 15, 2004 21:34:38	Interesting. "Fey" is often associated with "faire" and made distinct from "elf." Are D&D elves "faires?" I don't think so in a Victorian sense. Yet, are elves "fey?" I think they can be. Gets kinda circular. Are D&D dwarves "fey" or "faire?" I don't think so. As they have been developed, I think they are distinct from classic Victorian models. Gnomes are another matter. I could see them going either way. Ultimately, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I think it depends on the flavor you are looking for. The D&D demihuman feel,to me, is distinct from what I think of as "faire" coming out of the Victorian period. In GH, I think the distinction is drawn between elves and the "fey" or "faire" by reference to elves apart from those descriptives and by specific reference to "Fey Mysteries," as if the quality of being "fey" or "faire" is distinct from ordinary elvenness. But having said this, Celene is called a "faire" kingdom. However, other elven enclaves are not similarly described. So, Celene appears to have a special character distinct from other elves, or it is just an honorific. I tend toward the latter. IMO, elves are not "fairies" like brownies, pixies etc. But they are related in so far as they can, volitionally assume "fey" characteristics and ultimately transform into "faire." In 3E, I guess they would get a "template." I've never defined it so precisely in actual play, as it hasn't come up, but that is the way I think I would handle it. I'm interested to see how others approach it. GVD
#3 Halberkill Sep 16, 2004 10:09:32	Grey Elves are closer tied to the realms of Faerie. Hence the orcish graffitti on the wall in the slavelords module "Grey Elves are fairies". being kind of a double entendre. They are fey, and they are fairies in the sense of not being manly like an orc. 3rd edition rules can bite my buttocks with the need for a template for everything. Halber
#4 princeofcincinnati Sep 24, 2004 12:49:46	Any others with thoughts on this?
#5 gadodel Sep 24, 2004 20:31:55	Are elves,dwarves and other demi humans fey that have been in this reality so long that they have lost the fey type? Yep...they are a watered down sort of Fey.
#6 Elendur Sep 27, 2004 10:23:04	Elves are related to fey, sure. Dwarves are definitely not. Gnomes are questionable, I'd say no. The Celene thing is interesting. It's very much an unknown area in my campaign. I can see a certain segment of the elves there having fey characteristic(perhaps the royal family). In 3e that could just mean change their type from humanoid to fey.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 27, 2004 21:55:48	In general, I think that after some generations on Oerth (different with each "race"), a creature loses its extra-planar origins. For example, in old discussions with Rasgon, we imagined what connections oni, ogre magi, bakemono, jebline, xvarts, and gnolls (in no particular order) have with cambions (including alu-demons). Stated another way, what differences exist between minotaurs on Oerth and those winding their way through some labyrinth of Hell?
#8 OleOneEye Sep 28, 2004 0:51:44	I tend to think of the elves as a militant offshoot of the fey. Their primary purpose on Oerth as the guardians of their less warlike cousins. And to suggest that a dwarf is in any way related to the fey would be among the gravest of insults to the dour folk.
#9 princeofcincinnati Sep 29, 2004 18:26:52	But in most litature dwarves,gnomes and such are fey or at least elementals.
#10 OleOneEye Sep 30, 2004 1:44:11	I understand that most human literature regarding dwur or noniz comes from the Flan, telling great fables from before the Great Migrations. However, one has to realize that the Flan are going to inject their own paradigms into the fables. The Flan connect everything back to the Oerth Mother, interchangeably using words like "fey," "spirits," "elementals," and whatnot to explain that which they do not understand. In relation to the categorization of species, we are truly indebted to the Suel Fleshcrafters of House Zierto. In furtherance of their transmutational arts, they began the first etymological studies of the various humanoid races of the Flanneass c. -150 CY. Their works are the first I know of that divest themselves of religious trappings and look at the biological characteristics that connect and/or separate the species. I think their works are quite conclusive that the dwarves are neither fey nor elemental. Alas, the Aerdi overran House Zierto's strongholds and disbanded the house. Practically all of their works were destroyed, as the Oeridians were far more interested in conquest and plunder than scientific thought. One remaining tome is noted to be kept at Rel Deven. A couple centuries later, unrest against the Overkings began to foment in the western provinces, notably Ferrond and Nyrond. Commoners of both lands came to venerate the old Flannish gods in defiance of their Aerdy lords. Thus, gods like Beory, Pelor, and Rao spread worship among Ferrond, Nyrond, and satellites. Upon secession of the various states, their rulers each sanctioned churches of several of the Flannish gods. This is why various fables and legends of the Flannish people still infect the Flaneass. Anything that the villagers cannot explain they call fey or spirits rather than biological classifications. I admire the recent attempts by Grey College to purge all classes that teach Flan fable as fact.