Please reference the other thread and post responses there. I only posted here to point Greyhawkers to the other thread.
Edit: To clarify, this is not to be a thread about which campaign setting is better. It's supposed to be a intelligent discussion about the film elements being applied to Greyhawk just as easily as they are in Eberron. My questioning about the distaste for Greyhawk is targeted towards fans of FR and Eberron who made a few comments about disliking Greyhawk without detailed explanation. I was inviting them to share their opinions so taht I might understand their frustrations with Greyhawk.
Edit: I changed the subject to keep this thread from turning into a flame war.
GVD
If this isn't a troll,then the "vs" is out of place. Why would I want to discuss "Ebberon vs Greyhawk?" There is no comparison from history, to approach, to present situation. Elephant vs Emu? Wildebeast vs Lemure? It makes about as much sense. And why, oh why, would I, as a GH fan, so to Ebberon's backyard and start talking about Ebberon VERSUS Greyhawk? Who gets edified? That you have to come here and recruit posters for the donnybrooke is sauce for the goose. Back under the bridge with the troll.
GVD
If you read the thread in question you would understand that this is not an Eberron vs. Greyhawk war, which is stated in the other thread. you would also know that the subject title is in reference to the Ebberon vs. FR thread in the same forum. Read the Eberron vs. Greyhawk thread to understand what the thread is about. Keith Baker already replied with a very honest and insightful response and I already thanked him for it.
Want to convice me otherwise, let's talk about what you say its about right here. No need to go play in Ebberon's backyard. Or is their a reason the conversation must occur on the Ebberon board? I dislike going into someone else's territory, being outnumbered and engaged in a proposition likely to arouse the ire of the inhabitats if I do more than fawn or give 'em slow-pitches. But that's just me.
To each their own but I'm not biting.
GVD
I weeped and cried all night. How, HOW DARE HE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*No we TRUE WoG players don't like Eberron! Never did and never will! Eberron too nasty and noir for us!*
*Sigh*
:hoppingma
I stand by my opinion. Its a troll. I hit the link before I replied. The FR fans were predominantly worried that FR would be in some way hurt by Ebberron. It was by turns an FR and Ebberon lovefest. Not quite flamy but hardly edifying. If someone had actually critically analyzed either setting? Which hardly occurred. I think it would get hot fast.
Want to convice me otherwise, let's talk about what you say its about right here. No need to go play in Ebberon's backyard. Or is their a reason the conversation must occur on the Ebberon board? I dislike going into someone else's territory, being outnumbered and engaged in a proposition likely to arouse the ire of the inhabitats if I do more than fawn or give 'em slow-pitches. But that's just me.
To each their own but I'm not biting.
GVD
No this is not a Troll. I've been a member of these boards for a long while, and I am not looking to start any flame war. Please do not accuse me of any such thing. If you didn't want to participate than you didn't have to post anything at all.
My main focus of the discussion was specifically to find out from Eberron players what characteristics made film elements so easy to incorporate versus doing the same in any other campaign setting.
The second reason was to just understand why some individuals dislike Greyhawk. My only experience with D&D camapign settings is with Greyhawk. I've never played FR except for PC games and that was before I began playing tabletop D&D.
If you wanted to you could go to the thread and post about how you might have Eberron's flavor in your own setting or how you think Eberron is unique to this. That's all I'm looking for from Greyhawk players. I'm not looking for anyone to post why he or she thinks Greyhawk is better.
Additionally, I'm not crying over Greyhawk possibly being otudone by Eberron. If anything I'm actually eager to switch to Eberron, but I don't have the resources justification to switch to Eberron just yet (I'm in the middle of DMing a Greyhawk camapign). Hence why I was asking about those same Eberron film elements being applied to Greyhawk. I like those ideas, and I like the sort of mood Eberron presents.
If you don't have constructive input into the discussion, then don't participate. However, I ask that you please don't accuse me of trolling or anything to that effect.
I concur you should change the "vs" part of the title to "or". At least that way it wouldn't look like a conflict between the two settings.
Done.
Whatever.
Halber
Actually I've found that Eberron seems to take alot from Greyhawk. Especially the "your character above NPC's" that they are trying to sell as something new.
Whatever.
Halber
I agree, but Eberron doesn't have high-powered NPCs running around like Mordenkainen or Eclavdra. Don't get me wrong; I like these characters because they explain why the world is balanced and not tilted too far towards good or evil.
I agree, but Eberron doesn't have high-powered NPCs running around like Mordenkainen or Eclavdra. Don't get me wrong; I like these characters because they explain why the world is balanced and not tilted too far towards good or evil.
give it time. when the PCs reach higher levels so too will their opponents. there will be a clamor for high lvl NPCs to be posted on "official" sites like the WotC one.
so too will there be a release of source material and supplements with these NPCs included. at first as names... and then more clamor will be heard to stat them out...
just give it time.
Actually I've found that Eberron seems to take alot from Greyhawk. Especially the "your character above NPC's" that they are trying to sell as something new.
The idea of Player Characters being more unique then NPCs is definitely of greater emphasis in Eberron than Greyhawk. All of the high level NPCs in Eberron are usually NPC classes, Aristocrats, Experts, etc. They might have a level of Fighter or Rogue.
You do not have "umpteenth" level kings, Religious leaders, etc., like Lynwerd, Hazen and Turrosh Mak, for example. And you definitely do not have god-like personalities ruling entire regions. Nor do you have esoteric, and aloof bodies like The Circle of Eight.
For example, in Eberron's city of Sharn, low-to-mid level PCs can get a job recovering an amulet for an Ari6/Rog1 patron, who really cannot accomplish such an expedition herself. This is unlike a typical Greyhawk situation. In Rel Mord, PCs are approached by the Greyseer, a 17th level Wizard, who can easily get the job done himself, given his level. A 17th level Wizard most assuredly has the resources for such a venture, too. In the former, the PCs are actually skilled adventurers with unique abilities. In Greyhawk, the PCs are just common bottom-dwellers, expendable pawns being played by power groups they will never rival nor become a part of.
Neither of the above is right or worng - just starkly different. I just don't think the comment I quoted is entirely accurate. The focus on PCs is considerably different between the two settings. And the Eberron perspective on unique PCs certainly did not come from the World of Greyhawk.
Wait for the novels to pick up steam. NPC gods won't be far behind.
LOL, Lassiviren. You definitley will not see NPC gods in any Eberron medium. I am so thankful for that, too. That idea is contrary to the Eberron philosophy.
The idea of Player Characters being more unique then NPCs is definitely of greater emphasis in Eberron than Greyhawk. All of the high level NPCs in Eberron are usually NPC classes, Aristocrats, Experts, etc. They might have a level of Fighter or Rogue.
You do not have "umpteenth" level kings, Religious leaders, etc., like Lynwerd, Hazen and Turrosh Mak, for example. And you definitely do not have god-like personalities ruling entire regions. Nor do you have esoteric, and aloof bodies like The Circle of Eight.
For example, in Eberron's city of Sharn, low-to-mid level PCs can get a job recovering an amulet for an Ari6/Rog1 patron, who really cannot accomplish such an expedition herself. This is unlike a typical Greyhawk situation. In Rel Mord, PCs are approached by the Greyseer, a 17th level Wizard, who can easily get the job done himself, given his level. A 17th level Wizard most assuredly has the resources for such a venture, too. In the former, the PCs are actually skilled adventurers with unique abilities. In Greyhawk, the PCs are just common bottom-dwellers, expandable pawns being played by power groups they will never rival nor become a part of.
Neither of the above is right or worng - just starkly different. I just don't think the comment I quoted is entirely accurate. The focus on PCs is considerably different between the two settings. And the Eberron perspective on unique PCs certainly did not come from the World of Greyhawk.
I think I'm becoming even more tempted to switch to Eberron.
I think I'm becoming even more tempted to switch to Eberron.
Do it! You will not regret it. It is an amazing setting with enornous potential. I bought two Eberron Campaign Setting books - one for me, and one to pass around my circle of RPG friends. It is becoming increasingly popular, for good reason.
I'm compelled to say this, as this discussion unfolds. Eberron is not a threat to anyone. As Erik Mona said at Paizo's boards, "... it [Eberron] will not bite." WotC is a business, and a new setting might be the answer to an elusive marketing interest. Really, Eberron is not going to hurt Greyhawk, FR or any other setting. It is another great product that can certainly add, but will not detract, from your home campaign.
Too many people think the various settings are in direct, fervent competition; that one threatens the other. It just is not so. Eberron, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are brothers from the same parent. Respect all of the settings, each for its uniqueness and individual flair. I say invest a little in them all, you will not go wrong with the diversity.
I haven't picked up the Ebberon book, and don't really intend to. However I do have the Kalamar books (official D&D by Kenzer - which means that all their books that have the D&D logo on them must be approved of by WotC [or so says their disclaimer]). I'm also intersted in the re-publishing of the Invinsible Overlord by Judges Guild/ Necromancer Games.
Being that I'm always the DM, I've never had the chance to play Kalamar, but I do sometimes use things from it. I've used the idea that the Hobgoblins and Orc's have their own nations by having them create Sil-Krag after the Hegemony Wars (read my Hegemony Wars on CF for more info). I like other things from Kalamar, but can't seem to pry myself away from Greyhawk enough to go join Kenzer's Kalamar Board and find out what's going on. But what other elements do people use from Kalamar's setting? I've used a module or two, and some of their information in one of them to supplement the Dungeon infromation from Harby (the Sea Pirates module seems to fit the Wild Coast region nicely).
But with Dave's reprinting of Blackmoor for a setting of it's own (the latest Dungeon has a Greyhawk Blackmoor adventure) and Overlord coming back out, anybody using (planning) these things for Greyhawk? I recall and still own all those booklets from Judges Guild's Overlord and often had the idea to use them for the left side of the world. I likely will do so again. I'm even contemplating using Overlord in favor of Greyhawk. If not, Keoland is seeking new trade partners with Furyondy busy with Iuz, the Sea Princes being unstable, and Ket and Bissel at each others throats. Keoland is looking for new partners and new technology. They send adventurers out over the mountains and past the Sea of Dust.
So as not to hijack a thead:
I don't quite get it's film noir style - and although I did take a class on film and we covered these things, I still don't quite get the whole film noir style - Pirates of the Caribean was a great movie, but that's supposed to be the style of the game? In the movie, pirates and ghosts are stories to most people. But the basic idea of Dungeons & Dragons is dungeons and ancient civilizations that have past on and people realize this and go wandering around. Dragons doesn't mean Dragons all the time, but it means that weird creatures can and do appear from under the ground - the farmer hucking his corn is attacked by a bullette.
So I don't understand that aspect of Ebberon. But maybe someone else does and explain how or why that is or isn't in Greyhawk...What other settings (old or new) are people using with Greyhawk? Or what other settings ideas and concepts are people using/planning to use from them? What Greyhawk things are you incorporating into Ebberon/fr/d20 world?
I now declare myself Theocrat of all Theocracy nations in all World Settings!
Greyson posted:
"For example, in Eberron's city of Sharn, low-to-mid level PCs can get a job recovering an amulet for an Ari6/Rog1 patron, who really cannot accomplish such an expedition herself. This is unlike a typical Greyhawk situation. In Rel Mord, PCs are approached by the Greyseer, a 17th level Wizard, who can easily get the job done himself, given his level. A 17th level Wizard most assuredly has the resources for such a venture, too. In the former, the PCs are actually skilled adventurers with unique abilities. In Greyhawk, the PCs are just common bottom-dwellers, expandable pawns being played by power groups they will never rival nor become a part of."
----------------
This problem with the PC's being approached by Greyseer a 17th lvl Wizard vs a minor noble with classes in Aristocrat is one of editions.
Remember that Greyhawk has been around for 30 years. As such, we've gone from edition to edition, and trying to understand and handle the change. In 3e, Dwur could suddenly cast spells. This caused lots of problems for us that have been saying no for so long. Other said that the Dwur kept to themselves and never really came out of the wood work. Until cy 592 when a whole hoard of dwurian magic users came rushing out from the mountains taking over and making their presence known.
So, if we could go back and re-write our major NPC's without changing our history too much, we too could have the Greyseer being a 17th level Sage instead of a Wizard. Belvor would be Warrior 8 / Paladin 2 (I'm just putting numbers here, I don't know his real levels). But with Greyhawk, being a Warrrior was the same as being a Fighter, and in 2nd edition, being a Warrior was the catch all for the Cavelier, Fighter and Paladin. So that's a problem with Greyhawk.
As I mention in my post above, Necromancer is re-doing City State of the Invincible (did I post invinsible above?) Overlord, with a change in the rules they are going to be able to change the 17th level Wizard from the old 1e rules that runs the magic shoppe to a 8th level Sage that specializes in conjuration magic items. That's the glory of re-writes. But that is also the glory of death. Greyhawk died, but not to the extent that Overlord has.
So if having the PC's intereacted with by lower level NPC's, don't have them interact with the Greyseer, but a minor noble Ari6/Rog1 instead. Or better yet, lets re-write Greyhawk to fit the current rulesset. Oh that seems like too much work, and I'll play Overlord.
Theocrat Overlord
I don't quite get it's film noir style - and although I did take a class on film and we covered these things, I still don't quite get the whole film noir style - Pirates of the Caribean was a great movie, but that's supposed to be the style of the game? In the movie, pirates and ghosts are stories to most people. But the basic idea of Dungeons & Dragons is dungeons and ancient civilizations that have past on and people realize this and go wandering around. Dragons doesn't mean Dragons all the time, but it means that weird creatures can and do appear from under the ground - the farmer hucking his corn is attacked by a bullette.
So I don't understand that aspect of Ebberon. But maybe someone else does and explain how or why that is or isn't in Greyhawk...What other settings (old or new) are people using with Greyhawk? Or what other settings ideas and concepts are people using/planning to use from them? What Greyhawk things are you incorporating into Ebberon/fr/d20 world?
Pirates of the Carribbean is an example of Swashbuckling with an anti-hero as the main character. Jack Sparrow is a self-serving individual. His only real motive throughout the entire movie was to get his ship back; saving the girl was just part of the deal to meet his goal. Film noir is usually a reference to darker edgier movies instead of the happy warm fuzzy movies people were used to. There's a really good UNCon discussion on the Generl Eberron forums discussing these characteristics.
I've taken the liberty of adding action points to my Greyhawk world. I'm also debating stripping down all of the high-powered NPCs to NPC classes only. I never understood the point of NPC classes if NPCs kept getting Player Character classes.
I'm also planning on emphasizing the post-war mood across the land with conversational references, opinionated veterans and political intrigue.
The idea of Player Characters being more unique then NPCs is definitely of greater emphasis in Eberron than Greyhawk. All of the high level NPCs in Eberron are usually NPC classes, Aristocrats, Experts, etc. They might have a level of Fighter or Rogue.
And nothing prevents you from doing the same with GH's NPC. The latter have often many levels in PC's classes only because they were created back in the days of 1E/2E and were converted directly to 3E. That said, I don't feel threatened by the number of high-level NPC. WoG has a lot less of those than FR and most of them are logical as opposed to the FR where you can walk in an inn whose owner is a retired lvl 24th wizard with an illithid in temporal stasis under the stairs ...
You do not have "umpteenth" level kings, Religious leaders, etc., like Lynwerd, Hazen and Turrosh Mak, for example. And you definitely do not have god-like personalities ruling entire regions. Nor do you have esoteric, and aloof bodies like The Circle of Eight.
And what, pray tell, is wrong with that? The national/religious leaders with class levels have all taken part in the last war, if not in events prior to that. They earned their levels. We're not talking about aloof folks who observed from afar while their troops were slaughtering each other in the field. Lynwerd fought for the whole war. Hazen directed the ceremony that resulted in the flight of fiends. Turrosh Mak is an ex-slavelord and now rules a nation he united through hard work.
Eberron has its share of semi-secret organizations that rival the Co8 in power (Lords of Dust anyone?). And while it doesn't have a demi-god ruling an empire of evil, it has its own ultra-powerful "baddies". The lich-queen Vol comes to mind here...
For example, in Eberron's city of Sharn, low-to-mid level PCs can get a job recovering an amulet for an Ari6/Rog1 patron, who really cannot accomplish such an expedition herself. This is unlike a typical Greyhawk situation. In Rel Mord, PCs are approached by the Greyseer, a 17th level Wizard, who can easily get the job done himself, given his level. A 17th level Wizard most assuredly has the resources for such a venture, too. In the former, the PCs are actually skilled adventurers with unique abilities. In Greyhawk, the PCs are just common bottom-dwellers, expendable pawns being played by power groups they will never rival nor become a part of.
Are you saying that there are NO low-level NPC around in GH to hire low-to-mid level PC?
Just because the top ten NPC in (for example) Nyrond are all lvl 8+ doesn't mean lower-level NPC don't exist in the same country. I would be very interested to know why a Nyrondese nobleman who happens to be Ari6/Rog1 couldn't hire a group of PC? Last I recall, there are no hard rule stating that "if your PC play in WoG, then they can ONLY accept missions from the highest level local NPC". If that's what happens in your WoG campaign, then it's the DM's fault, not the setting's.
What's more, a NPC hiring PC can always consider them as expandable pawns, whether he is lvl 1 or lvl 20 and whatever the PC's level. Level got nothing to do with it, it's all in the attitude.
And I wouldn't say the PC are always reduced to the role of pawns that can never hope to rival their masters. There are several examples of modules in which the PC perform a task in exchange for a better social station, certain contacts or even entrance into an elite group.
Just take a look at the list of pre-generated PC for City of Skulls for instance. They are nearly all in it for temporal power, not because they enjoy being "Mr Good Minion"