Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lincoln_hills Sep 16, 2004 14:02:01	I'd like to see opinions, pro and con, on something. Everybody remember CHAINMAIL? They set Ravila and its associated regions somewhere west of the Flanaess on the continent of Oerik, I believe. Should we regard this as "canon"? My personal opinion runs: A. Chainmail had guns. B. Gunpowder was deliberately excluded from Oerth by design a LONG time ago. C. Therefore I must regard Chainmail and Oerth as mutually exclusive. D. I like cake.
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2004 14:19:32	My Chainmail booklet is older than Greyhawk. ;)
#3 bluebomber4evr Sep 16, 2004 14:39:06	From what I understand, the "guns" in Chainmail were not gunpowder/smokepowder weapons, but emitted some sort of magical sonic blast or something (maybe it was fire, I don't own the book, just remembering the articles about it in Dragon magazine). Technically, it doesn't violate the "no gunpowder" rule of Greyhawk.
#4 Mortepierre Sep 16, 2004 16:10:35	I'd like to see opinions, pro and con, on something. Everybody remember CHAINMAIL? They set Ravila and its associated regions somewhere west of the Flanaess on the continent of Oerik, I believe. Should we regard this as "canon"? Tough one. The local deities are now part of the GH pantheon (as available on-line at the RPGA website). Plus, a group of drows from the Vault were described as having migrated there in Dragon Mag. Personally, I don't much care for that setting as a kind of "western Flanaess" but I wouldn't have a heartattack if it was canon. After all, interactions with the "regular" Flanaess are almost unheard of, so it's not like it's going to ruin my campaign or anything
#5 cwslyclgh Sep 16, 2004 16:41:51	well since the owners of the IP put out chainmail, saying that it is set in the same world as greyhawk, and since said owners have not said otherwise (ei. WotC has not said that chainmail isn't canon), it is "official canon" and if you want to write a module or something to be published by WotC (good luck with that one)or probably even Dungeon Magazine... you would have to take the chainmail stuff into account. However like everything else, "official Canon" only matters in this case if you are trying to write something for the setting... in my personal D&D game the lands described in the chainmail things do not exist on Oerik, or any place else on the world of greyhawk, so as far as my "personal canon" goes the answer is No. the answer I am trying to give you in my round about way is that whether it is canon or not is up to you... and of course this applies to everything in every suplement... unless you are an author/game designer/editor working with the setting.
#6 Halberkill Sep 17, 2004 13:09:39	I had asked a similar question to Erik Mona, and he effectively said that though it has not non-canon, it also hasn't officially been stated as being canon, and that the decision to make it canon has not been made yet. So, possibly maybe. I would like it to be cannon, though now that they don't have to worry about producing minis for it, that they should develop more themes outside of "Flanaess Cisalpina" or Oeridians part 2, so to speak. They were going to be doing this to some extent, in that the caverns that the migrant drow from the Crystalmists and other forces were inhabiting and discovering old caverns of the original Gith people that eventually became the Githyanki and Githzerai, and using their corpses for their animate dead purposes. Anyways, the map from the ESD for chainmail updates the Dragon Annual map to some extent, were certain land features have changed, being that the Dragon Annual map aparently is a map from the time of the Suel Imperium. Halber
#7 faraer Sep 18, 2004 14:46:24	There *is* no current WotC Greyhawk canon other than Living Greyhawk.
#8 ivid Sep 20, 2004 4:04:05	Where would you place the Chainmail lands, then? I think it is logical to consider that the Drow would use gunpowder and steam engine, BTW.
#9 Halberkill Sep 20, 2004 17:46:50	Where would you place the Chainmail lands, then? It has already been placed. It is located on western Oerik. Compare this map of Chainmail's Sundered Empire: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2b69q/chainmail_sundered_empire.jpg with the small map inset in the LGG and in the dragon annual: http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif I think it is logical to consider that the Drow would use gunpowder and steam engine, BTW. WTF? Why would a naturally magical race use the antithesis of magic, technology? Halber
#10 scoti_garbidis Sep 21, 2004 7:40:17	Yeah, those maps are like in every natural way.... ie: mountain ranges and such. I don't know much about Chainmail but the two maps Halber put up speak a thousand words that scream Chainmail is Canon Greyhawk.
#11 max_writer Sep 21, 2004 11:03:55	So, where did that map come from? Is it from one of the Chainmail books?
#12 Halberkill Sep 21, 2004 14:21:33	So, where did that map come from? Is it from one of the Chainmail books? It was in the Chainmail Core Rulebook ESD, which was not published in paper, but was available at that online store that WotC used to sell there Acrobat format electronic documents. I think it is called SVG Games. Unfortunately it is no longer available on their site. Though there are many references to Oerth in the various other chainmail rule booklets and Dragon magazine articles that were released. For those interested, here is some summed up info about the chainmail setting without all of the rules info, pure meat, no crunch. Unfortunately you can only see them through the Wayback Machine. http://web.archive.org/web/20031210103243/http://sophia.smith.edu/~krocha/ravilla/places.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20031210101540/sophia.smith.edu/~krocha/ravilla/factions.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20031210102551/sophia.smith.edu/~krocha/ravilla/hooks.htm Halber
#13 ivid Sep 22, 2004 12:49:24	*Hijacking the topic* :D It's my personal view of the Drow not to see in them only brutal servants of Lloth with a natural tendence towards chaotic evil alignment. I imagine them being a race of valiant explorers, fighting their way through the deepest abysses of the earth. In my opinion, a race dwelling in such a live - oposing environment should have developed technical abilities as well. Might be uncanonical, but that the way I like to see them. ------------------------- I'd be interested in learning about chainmail! As a part of Oerth, I consider it promising, although unlikely to be used in MY campaigns. (My favourite regions are not the classic western lands of GH, but the east, even Aquaria.)
#14 ravenwood Oct 14, 2004 3:40:50	My Chainmail booklet is older than Greyhawk. ;) lol...mine too, heck, the default world setting in it is earth... :D
#15 Alzrius Oct 17, 2004 11:47:37	I was going to point some stuff out, but it looks like everyone here beat me to it. Basically, yes, the physical, theological, and historical connections between the Sundered Empire (as it was called in Dragon) and Greyhawk are enough that it's pretty hard to say the setting isn't canon. About the guns, I don't know how the guns of the Sundered Empire work, so if they are some sort of sonic-blast thing, that would sidestep the issue entirely. That said, there is a minor distinction that most people are unaware of: it isn't guns themselves, it's what powers them. Smokepowder is a magical substance that causes guns to fire; smokepowder on the planet Oerth simply doesn't function (see Greyspace for more on that). Gunpowder however, is a non-magical substance that basically does the same thing as smokepowder; being non-magical, it works on Oerth (see Dragon #306 page 98).
#16 ivid Oct 18, 2004 1:35:34	So there is only one remaining problem to be solved: WHERE CAN WE GET THAT FORMIDABLE DINGUS FROM?