Can anybody give me a bit of info on what Silvanesti was like during Lorac's dream? I know the chronicles trilogy has a bit on it, when the companions go in for the dragon orb, I just need to find my books and find out where that info is.
Basically I just need a description of what the area as like, was everything surreal, any creatures? Stuff like that.
Thanks
Dalamar the Dark for the beginnings,
Dragons of Winter Night for the dream, and
The Puppet King for what the forest was like without Lorac's influence (has a lot on the creatures as I recall).
Is there more information on this in the War of the Lance campaign sourcebook?>
WHen you look at what Lorac's ill fated attempt to use the DragonOrb, and the tremendous ramifications that it's use entailed, it was truely amazing and a testament to the power of the DragonOrb's and their creators.
And I could almost go with Laurana, being completely untrained in magic or the use of a DragonOrb being able to use it to lure the Blue Dragon Army's wing into the DragonTraps.
But I just could not abide by tghe fact that Kitiara's force of will was enough to prevent Skie from reacting to the use of the DragonOrb. I just thought it ridiculous for something that powerfull could be thwarted by Kitiara's "force of will". Yes, it could be argued that had someone more powerfull been using that DragonOrb (Par-Salian or Raistlin) that Kitiara could have done nothing to save Skie. But still
And I could almost go with Laurana, being completely untrained in magic or the use of a DragonOrb being able to use it to lure the Blue Dragon Army's wing into the DragonTraps.
One does not need to be trained in the arcane to hold a dragon orb in thrall. It is a contest of wills. If you win the orb will be forced to give up it's secrets to you. If you fail...well Lorac's dream is an example of the power the orb can tap into. I'm sure being trained in the arcane connot hurt as one is able to focus and maintain that focus better than an untrained mind, but I don't think it is nor should it be a requirement.
But I just could not abide by tghe fact that Kitiara's force of will was enough to prevent Skie from reacting to the use of the DragonOrb. I just thought it ridiculous for something that powerfull could be thwarted by Kitiara's "force of will". Yes, it could be argued that had someone more powerfull been using that DragonOrb (Par-Salian or Raistlin) that Kitiara could have done nothing to save Skie. But still
I think the reason that Skie was able to resist the lure of the dragon orb is that he is really an "alien" dragon. He's not native to Krynn and therefore may not be as susceptible to the magic of Krynn. Also he's been around the block a few times, probably much older than the native dragons he flew to the High Clerists Tower with, and therefore had a much better Will save, in game terms. I don't really think his connection to Kitiara had much, if anything, to do with him resisting the orbs call. Most likely had to do with his "true" age category and the fact that he's an "alien" dragon.
What is an "Alien Dragon"? I know it developed in the Post-War of Souls or something like that. I am not sure, as my signature shows, I have boycotted all post SUMMER FLAME books, as the idea's and concepts brought forth I consider utterly stupid and ruinous to my vision of the DragonLance universe. As a result, I don't really know for sure what I am missing (although based on what I have read, I am glad I am skipping these books).
Ok, I have heard this brought up before so I guess I need to ask.
What is an "Alien Dragon"? I know it developed in the Post-War of Souls or something like that. I am not sure, as my signature shows, I have boycotted all post SUMMER FLAME books, as the idea's and concepts brought forth I consider utterly stupid and ruinous to my vision of the DragonLance universe. As a result, I don't really know for sure what I am missing (although based on what I have read, I am glad I am skipping these books).
An alien dragon is one who comes from outside Krynn. The Dome of Creation protects and seperates Krynn from the ether that it resides in. The alien dragons come from another world outside the Dome of Creation where there is very little life besides dragons. On this world they have develpoed a way of increasing their size and powers by creating dragon skull totems. All the dragon overlords from the 5th Age are alien dragons.
What happened is Takhisis travelled the ether trying to find and prepare a suitable place to take Krynn for after she stole it. She'd been planning this for quite sometime and being confined to the Abyss gave her plenty of time to think and plan. On her journeys through the ethers she encounters Skie and they make a pact. He will help prep Krynn for her taking and in turn he will be made ruler of all Ansalon. So when Takhisis finally did steal Krynn, it was removed from the security of the Dome of Creation and was discovered by several of these alien dragons escaping from their own world, because they weren't on the top end of the food chain there. Where they came from it was eat or be eaten, literally. The alien dragons are naturally bigger and stronger than Krynn's own natural dragons, so Krynn's natural dragons didn't stand a chance against these alien dragons. They basically either went into hiding, fought and died, or became servants to them. That's about all I got on them, others might know more.
While I can understand your not liking anything post DoSF, once the 5th Age got rolling it wasn't half bad. I pretty much boycotted the minor books Pre WoS myself but when the WoS trilogy came out I picked them up. They are quite good. Since then I've been going back and reading the 5th Age stuff because a whole lot changes, most of it is OK. Dragonlance was sort of getting stale anyway, so I was actually kind of happy things got shook up a bit.
Obviously during the Chronicles, Skie wasn't intended as an alien dragon. This was added later in the War of the Souls or whatever. Although I guess now people can look back and say "hey he was an alien dragon so he could reisist it", but I don't see why they would be any better off personally. I just look at it as anything else.. maybe Skie "saved" on his saving throw. Its amazing what a force of will, loyalty, sheer determinedness(is that even a word?), etc. can do. That one dragon managed to saved doesn't bother me so much. Also, Dragon Orbs I like to thing of as random things. You never know what you are going to get with them.. maybe a small effect..maybe a large one. It varies.
I've read pretty much every 5th age thing.. and I still personally hate it. Well, maybe hate is a strong word. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth personally. When this 5th age stuff started, it almost felt like a totally different world. I chose the world to play in because of what I had read and seen.. you change that around (and not minor changes... big changes) and it ceases to be that world. Obviously Weis and Hickman needed to come in and fix it to bring it back to the Dragonlance-y feel, and I feel that they have done a pretty good job. I just wish the whole period could be erased. But that is what you get when you rely on a world written by other people, they have free license to do what they want and I respect that. I just don't think I can ever like the period of Dragons of Summer Flame to Dragons of a Fallen Sun. To me that time period feels like its on a different world.. there's Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and... "5th Age". I realize that post War of Souls is still 5th Age,, which is why I'm in favor of them making it a new age, while I know it won't ever happen.
In fact the Fifth Age material went out of its way to stress that Skie was a Krynnish dragon, which is why he fought against Malys.
Anyway, I think I got most of the info I need, so thanks for your help.
As for the 5th age, I reletively enjoyed it. Part of that is because I got into DL about a year before the 5th age books came out, so I was not totally familiar with everything. Though looking through now, I do prefer the 'War of the Lance' era over all others when it comes to gaming.
On a reading enjoyment standpoint, I do enjoy the 5th age, and it was something different and new. I do think that Weis and Hickman made a wise choice to step in and drop the bomb on all the 'alien dragons' it was getting a bit absurd, but overall interesting.
Is'nt Onysablet (I know the spelling is wrong) and another white dragon both alien dragons that are still around? Or did I miss something someplace?
I'm always amazed at those who "hate" The Fifth Age, but have never read any of the books set in that time period...
I can only speak for myself. I was still reading when THE NEXT GENERATION came out. I thought the entire concept of the Knights of Takhisis and the evil and noble steel brightblade to be stupid. And then Dragons of Summer FLames came out and by the end, everything I loved about DragonLance had been wiped out by the end. I had a lot vested in DragonLance by that point as far as "My Vision of the world" went and to see so much of it destroyed by the end of the books I took as "Fine, I guess I am done with DL". I still read books set Pre-Cataclysm like Vinas Solamnus and the KingPriest Trilogy though.
And truth be told, a lot of what I am hearing about in the new stuff sounds pretty bad, and this Alien Dragon concept is part of it. If we are to believe in this Alien Dragon Concept, it opends the door to Drow and to Tiamat and Bahamut if we are to go by it. I liked much better Takhisis being the mother of all DragonKind better, but oh well. There is a reason why I have not read the new stuff.
Is'nt Onysablet (I know the spelling is wrong) and another white dragon both alien dragons that are still around? Or did I miss something someplace?
Correct. Currently, Onsablet or more commonly known as Sable is still around. The other, a white dragon named Gellidus or who most refer to as Frost (IIRC, I always use the Gellidus name myself) is around as well, and are the last 2 dragon overlords around currently.
I can only speak for myself. I was still reading when THE NEXT GENERATION came out. I thought the entire concept of the Knights of Takhisis and the evil and noble steel brightblade to be stupid.
Raistlin was both supremely evil and had good in him as well. Did you hate him as well? Kitiara started out with noble aspirations looking for her lost father (a Solamnic Knight), then became evil. Steel started out evil, then became more and more noble. Do you hate Kitiara as well?
And then Dragons of Summer FLames came out and by the end, everything I loved about DragonLance had been wiped out by the end. I had a lot vested in DragonLance by that point as far as "My Vision of the world" went and to see so much of it destroyed by the end of the books I took as "Fine, I guess I am done with DL".
To a certain extent, I agree that the age of mortals is quite possibly the lesser age of all known ages of Krynn. I hated the alien dragon concept too, but hearing things second hand from others didn't prevent me from reading the books. That fact is something that allowed me to enjoy a few stories, even during the times I started to feel that Dragonlance was going down the 'porcelain throne's spiral'. This self imposed close-mindedness is going to deprive you of some good reads. Amber and Ashes for example is a great book IMHO. The Conclave. The Minotaur Wars. Dragon Isles, etc. You really should give some of them a try. If you walk away from them still disappointed after reading them, then at least your being upset with the latest Dragonlance age will be a well-founded, informed opinion, and not one merely influenced by second-hand stories and rumors.
And truth be told, a lot of what I am hearing about in the new stuff sounds pretty bad, and this Alien Dragon concept is part of it.
Again, I agree with the alien dragon stuff, but aside from that, there really are a few good stories out there. You owe it to yourself to at least give them a try.
If we are to believe in this Alien Dragon Concept, it opends the door to Drow and to Tiamat and Bahamut if we are to go by it.
Pre 5th age materials introduced Jiathuli, a daughter of Takhisis, and goddess of the Drow (very much like a Lolth type demi-god). Non canon, but it happened, and it was pre 5th age.
I liked much better Takhisis being the mother of all DragonKind better, but oh well.
She does make for an interesting villain, and was IMHO, the most manipulative, intelligent villain in Krynn's pantheon, and will be missed for that. On the good side though, with her passing, we finally get to see numerous other evil deities start to show their potential, which to me, is infinitely more interesting than Takhisis raising an army, trying to enter Krynn, and failing (lather, rinse repeat). A little variety is nice.
Any chance that there are any other orbs around?
Raistlin was both supremely evil and had good in him as well. Did you hate him as well? Kitiara started out with noble aspirations looking for her lost father (a Solamnic Knight), then became evil. Steel started out evil, then became more and more noble. Do you hate Kitiara as well?
To be fair, I don't think that was his point. The fact is I agree with DMJoe about this. A deity like Takhisis agreeing to support a highly cohesive organization like the Dark Knights simply seemed wrong. Not to mention that the Knights of Solamnia had had trouble recruiting and training new recruits for years but the Dark Knights managed in barely a few years to recruit, train and indoctrinate hundreds of members. And all in secret? I mean, come on!
Pre 5th age materials introduced Jiathuli, a daughter of Takhisis, and goddess of the Drow (very much like a Lolth type demi-god). Non canon, but it happened, and it was pre 5th age. She does make for an interesting villain, and was IMHO, the most manipulative, intelligent villain in Krynn's pantheon, and will be missed for that. On the good side though, with her passing, we finally get to see numerous other evil deities start to show their potential, which to me, is infinitely more interesting than Takhisis raising an army, trying to enter Krynn, and failing (lather, rinse repeat). A little variety is nice.
Jiathuli was a handmaiden of Takhisis, not her daughter.
And I really don't see why the other evil gods couldn't have attempted something if the 5th Age hadn't come along. Yes, Takhisis would have ranted as usual because she just has to be the main villain but methink the other evil gods wouldn't have cared at this point. Why? For the reason you pointed out.
"Look Takhi, it's not as if we didn't let you try, you know. Now, be a bad girl and let me show you how to conquer a world"
Case in point, Sargonnas was this close to entering the world some years before the War of the Lance (as described in The Companions), so we do know the other evil gods were just begging for an opportunity.
To be fair, I don't think that was his point. The fact is I agree with DMJoe about this. A deity like Takhisis agreeing to support a highly cohesive organization like the Dark Knights simply seemed wrong. Not to mention that the Knights of Solamnia had had trouble recruiting and training new recruits for years but the Dark Knights managed in barely a few years to recruit, train and indoctrinate hundreds of members. And all in secret? I mean, come on!
Their ranks grew as time went on. A large faction of their army at first consisted of the Tarmaks, which come from a sizeable continent with LOTS of people on it.
Aside from the resurgence of valor in the Solamnics thanks to Sturm, alot of people still didn't care for the Solamnics, plus the Solamnics were so stoic about who they admitted into their order, it's not surprising their order didn't grow very much. Then you have a dark goddess, possibly whispering to those with dark souls or who are easily tricked into joining her 'side' by promising power, esteem, whatever by joining her knights. Power and conquest are good motivators, especially with charismatic leaders. Not to mention, the unorganized armies of Takhisis during the War of the Lance might have flocked to this newly reformed banner as well. I don't see this as being very far fetched at all.
As for Takhisis herself, she was never one to be a 'one trick pony'. Saying her armies were once chaotic, and must remain that way is folly. She bent the rules to provide magic to her gray robes, which was against her normal M.O. She stole the world away, REALLY screwwing over the balance of the gods. Again, something not normal. Takhisis is one to try new things, albeit with the same goal in mind each time.
Jiathuli was a handmaiden of Takhisis, not her daughter.
You got me there. However these are semantics. Point is, she existed, and was a demi-god to true drow, and not dark elves (ie Elven societal outcasts)
And I really don't see why the other evil gods couldn't have attempted something if the 5th Age hadn't come along. Yes, Takhisis would have ranted as usual because she just has to be the main villain but methink the other evil gods wouldn't have cared at this point. Why? For the reason you pointed out.
Problem is, virtually EVERY dealing with evil during Tak's time, she was the center of. Once every 10 or so novels, you might see some minor representative of Hiddukel, or maybe Sargonnas, but that was about it. All the other evil gods basically sat around in the Abyss doing virtually nothing, but being a bunch of wall flowers while Tak sprung yet another assault on Krynn. With her gone, there is a power vaccuum now, and the evil gods are fighting for the chance to be the next big baddie. As evidenced in Amber and Ashes- the conflict among the evil pantheon is so refreshing. It's not the one sided story of Tak raising an army, marching against the world, getting beaten, going back to the abyss to lick wounds and seethe, only to do it all over again a few years later. MY original point is not to shun all the Age of Mortals materials because of second-hand stories and jaded opinions, but to read some of the books and make an informed decision THEN.
Case in point, Sargonnas was this close to entering the world some years before the War of the Lance (as described in The Companions), so we do know the other evil gods were just begging for an opportunity.
But no story ever focused on it. We, the readers stumbled across it following a story trying to foil TAKHISIS. While she was around, she was the focus. Now that she's gone, we can focus on the other evil deities. Stories like Sargonnas's nearly entering the world are stories we can hear more about NOW (and we are starting to as well, again in Amber and Ashes, as well as the Minotaur Wars). Something OTHER than Tak ALL the time.
Just a note on Steel, he was always noble, to a fault, and was torn between the good and the evil that were his birthrite.
Plus it gave a diametriaclly opposed opponent to the Knights of Solamnia.
Note early Fifth Age materials also posited that the "alien" dragons were still from Krynn, albeit an unknown continent.
I gamed in Fifth Age Dragonlance for quite some years, and found it enjoyable. Most of what was lost had been given replacements (wizardry=sorcery, clerics=mystics, gods=overlords), and all the rest of the distinctly "krynnish" elements remained. At least for me.
Unfortunately, most other people seem to have given the age a quick glance, decided "Yuck", and wanted nothing more to do with it, rather than give it a whirl.
Their ranks grew as time went on. A large faction of their army at first consisted of the Tarmaks, which come from a sizeable continent with LOTS of people on it.
Aside from the resurgence of valor in the Solamnics thanks to Sturm, alot of people still didn't care for the Solamnics, plus the Solamnics were so stoic about who they admitted into their order, it's not surprising their order didn't grow very much. Then you have a dark goddess, possibly whispering to those with dark souls or who are easily tricked into joining her 'side' by promising power, esteem, whatever by joining her knights. Power and conquest are good motivators, especially with charismatic leaders. Not to mention, the unorganized armies of Takhisis during the War of the Lance might have flocked to this newly reformed banner as well. I don't see this as being very far fetched at all.
We're discussing two different things here. I am not talking about whatever stray followers/worshippers of Takhisis the knights later recruited as cannon fodder for their campaign of conquest of Ansalon. I am talking only about the Knights of Takhisis themselves.
If we go strictly by the book (and, in this case, I am looking at The Second Generation), in a mere 26 years Ariakan founded his new knightly order and recruited hundreds of members (if not, why gives us full details about their rather large military units?), most of them young boys who were raised on his island fortress. The novel makes it clear prospective Knights were contacted one by one in secret, arguably a lengthy operation. Moreover, Ariakan seems to have been very selective about possible candidates, passing over many ex-members of Takhisis' armies because they were deemed too "chaotic".
So, in less than 30 years, a servant of evil managed to create a new knightly order as dedicated and courageous as the Solamnic Knights and ten times more efficient?
Right..
When I read it, I wondered why the 3 laws that had been the core of the DL universe had suddenly gone down the drain, especially the one about Evil feeding on itself.
Call me a nostalgic but I liked a world where Good managed to overcome with discipline what it couldn't defeat with brute force and where Evil, as strong as it became, was unable to achieve lasting victory because of inner bickering.
Plus it gave a diametriaclly opposed opponent to the Knights of Solamnia.
That's the same old argument that, for years, sustained that since paladins existed, anti-paladins should exist too. Numerous members of the (then) TSR staff explained patiently that Evil had its own brand of "champions" and that paladins were only the best Good had to offer to counter those. Yet, people continued to argue in favor of the anti-paladin and no one argued in favor of, say, an anti-beholder or an anti-illithid.
Amusingly, despite Evil (on Krynn) having access to an incredibly diverse variety of minions, even whole races created for the sole purpose of conquering the world (draconians anyone?), etc.. I never noticed people saying something like "Hmm, Evil has so many minions, and with innate magical powers too! Good should have counterparts for, say, draconians".
So, in essence, what little advantage Good might have just has to be given to Evil as well, oh and in an enhanced version too if possible.
There are times when I think Gilean must bang his head against the walls when trying to maintain his precious "balance"...
Raistlin was both supremely evil and had good in him as well. Did you hate him as well? Kitiara started out with noble aspirations looking for her lost father (a Solamnic Knight), then became evil. Steel started out evil, then became more and more noble. Do you hate Kitiara as well?
Good point on Raistlin, but I thought they did a better job at building up Raistlin too, which is why I liked him. Did not really care for Kitiara though as a character, she was too much like Mara Jade at times.
To a certain extent, I agree that the age of mortals is quite possibly the lesser age of all known ages of Krynn. I hated the alien dragon concept too, but hearing things second hand from others didn't prevent me from reading the books. That fact is something that allowed me to enjoy a few stories, even during the times I started to feel that Dragonlance was going down the 'porcelain throne's spiral'. This self imposed close-mindedness is going to deprive you of some good reads. Amber and Ashes for example is a great book IMHO. The Conclave. The Minotaur Wars. Dragon Isles, etc. You really should give some of them a try. If you walk away from them still disappointed after reading them, then at least your being upset with the latest Dragonlance age will be a well-founded, informed opinion, and not one merely influenced by second-hand stories and rumors.
The thing is , I felt REALLy, REALLY vested in DragonLance to see the stuff I like ruined by what I considered to be stupid idea's. I have mentioned this before, but need to bring it up again.
The all time favorite game system I have ever played was the Marvel Super Hero RPG of the late 1980's. It was one of the most fun, most adaptable systems I have ever played in. At first, we had a hard time getting into it, untill we came up with a "New Universe" concept, where characters based on ourselves would be the SuperHero's, and since our campaign would be set in a "Real World as of 1989" or whatever it was.
My brother selected "IronMan" to be him. My friend chose "SuperMan", my cousin "Thor". I thought it out, and decided to go with a Doctor Strange Like character. But at the same time, the MSH magic system was not that good, so I came up with the grand idea of adapting the 1st Edition Players HandBook spell list into a marvel super hero campaign type.
ANd I so much loved what I was reading in DragonLance, that I adapted a lot of it to our MSH campaign. I did it where Istar had been Atlantis and the Cataclysm that had brought it upon it would be cataloged. I did it with Dragons that had disappeared prior to that.
And I absolutely loved the Orders of Magic in DragonLance and that was one of hte first things I "Borrowed", only I had it where there were Towers in Scotland, the Amazon, and somewhere else.
My character was able to do a lot to restore the ORders of Magic to the world and as such, felt very "invested" in it, which is why I was so stunned and dismayed to see what I considered to be the best thing about Dragonlance (the orders of magic and the towers of high sorcery) to be wiped out by the end of Dragons of Summer Flame.
Again, I agree with the alien dragon stuff, but aside from that, there really are a few good stories out there. You owe it to yourself to at least give them a try. Pre 5th age materials introduced Jiathuli, a daughter of Takhisis, and goddess of the Drow (very much like a Lolth type demi-god). Non canon, but it happened, and it was pre 5th age.She does make for an interesting villain, and was IMHO, the most manipulative, intelligent villain in Krynn's pantheon, and will be missed for that. On the good side though, with her passing, we finally get to see numerous other evil deities start to show their potential, which to me, is infinitely more interesting than Takhisis raising an army, trying to enter Krynn, and failing (lather, rinse repeat). A little variety is nice.
I still read all books set before the NEXT GENERATION, and have publically stated how much I loved THE KINGPRIEST trilogy, Vinas Solamnus, and other books. The Pre-Cataclysm era is one of my favorites because there is just so much to do.
On the whole balance is kept. In the Age of Despair the forces of good and evil were failrly well balanced. Evil organized under the dragonarmies, pendulum swings to evil. The Knights of Solamnia unite, balance is restored. Dragonarmies fall apart, balance swings to good. Knight of Takhisis are formed, balance is restored. Summer of Flame, balance swings to evil. Things get a little bumpy during the beginning of the 5th Age, but clam back down after the gods return Krynn to it's proper place.
As you can see though, in the large picture, the pendulum is constantly swinging. It never rests. It might take a great deal of time for the pendulum to swing back to balance out again but it always does, even with the Kingpreist.
Ok.. now if the Balance is a for sure thing, than whenever there is great good in the world, it will eventually swing back. Its also been stated that the more that the pendolum is one way..it will swing just as much the other way. So if you are a good god.. and you saw everyone getting along nicely and the founding of great nations that were all good..wouldn't you be scared as hell? I mean that means that eventually something really bad is going to happen to make it more "balanced" again. "I just founded a great empire that has just rules, is kind to everyone, and does nice things throughout the world!"... Mishakal "You idiot! You'll ruin us all.. now there will be a new empire that will grow that will cause famine, sickness, and death! Make the empire have a balanced view so that there wont be more evil!"
I've seen one or two people state they see the gods as a force of "nature" instead of an actual person, like greek gods. This means that Chemosh will still do undead things because its in his nature no matter what he knows the outcome will be. Or Mishakal will still always want to heal. Or Takhisis will always try to rule the world. But in the Annotated Legends, Tracy Hickman even says that the gods of Dragonlance are like the greek gods. He specifically mentions it. Wouldn't you think that after thousands of years, after they knew all about the Balance and how it always "worked out" that they would throw their hands in the air and say Whats the point?
For all these reasons and more, I maintain that the Balance cannot be a "for sure" thing. To me that takes away from the free will of the people and even the gods. The people would eventually know that they can't have a world full of kindness, caring, and "goodness" because there has to be a balance and ****, pillage, murder, etc are on the opposite side and must exist. That means to make a perfect world.. a person would have to do as minimal good and evil things as possible and just exist. To me, this makes a very boring life. Pretty much close to robots. Or they can have a lot of goodness, while having a lot of evilness. Which makes for a bleak hopeless world when you know no matter how much good you try to do, something will come along and be "equaly" evil.
I say Neutral gods and people exist to try to make things as neutral as can be. Their jobs are hard because its not a "for sure" thing. There are pros and cons for both side, but they are more worried about making it an even playing field for everyone, who can then choose what they want.
It annoys me that Paladine said that there has to be a Balance. To me, that is something that Gilean would say, or any other neutral god. Not a god who would want way more good than evil. I somehow don't see a god of good wanting just a little bit more good than evil, but thinking that they should be close for the sake of the Balance. They would want a world filled with good, and evil not around anymore.
I think the issue of balance is not something that the gods can control though. It's dictated by the High God and therefore cannot be altered by any of the gods. Stupid as it is, it's something that Tracy and Margaret wanted when they made they world.
We're discussing two different things here. I am not talking about whatever stray followers/worshippers of Takhisis the knights later recruited as cannon fodder for their campaign of conquest of Ansalon. I am talking only about the Knights of Takhisis themselves.
If we go strictly by the book (and, in this case, I am looking at The Second Generation), in a mere 26 years Ariakan founded his new knightly order and recruited hundreds of members (if not, why gives us full details about their rather large military units?), most of them young boys who were raised on his island fortress. The novel makes it clear prospective Knights were contacted one by one in secret, arguably a lengthy operation. Moreover, Ariakan seems to have been very selective about possible candidates, passing over many ex-members of Takhisis' armies because they were deemed too "chaotic".
So, in less than 30 years, a servant of evil managed to create a new knightly order as dedicated and courageous as the Solamnic Knights and ten times more efficient?
Not 10 times more efficient. The Solamnics were content, not thinking anything bad was going to happen, so they were completely caught off guard by the Knights of Takhisis. Plus, the Solamnic order wasn't doing any heavy recruiting. They were STILL more selective of their recruits than the Knights of Takhisis. Caramon and Tika's sons were allowed to enter basically because they were the sons of the heroes of the lance, so they were allowed to enter.
Takhisis' army went around, and all but took recruits by force. (they were 'offered' the opportunity to join the knights. If they refused, the recruit was simply taken IIRC, but this wasn't necessary in most cases due to Tak visiting recruits dreams to make gathering of said recruits later, much easier for the full blown knights who were sent around to gather them). Plus, think about it, you have largish towns all over the place. You get a few operatives per town, and give them "the vision" so they know who to grab for recruiting purposes. It's not like the knights of Tak send out a different 3-4 people for EACH AND EVERY recruit. Operating in such a fashion would allow them to gather people rather quickly, and without much of a fuss (so they aren't prisoners in most cases, but going of their own free will, so they just gather at a certain place, then all go to the Knight's camp together). That kind of tactic is not that far fetched if you think about it. Then, all those young boys that are taken are:
a) young and impressionable, thereby easy to mold into the ideal knight for whatever purpose you want them to serve (ie easy to brainwash)
b) serve as young initiates that in 20-30 years will hit their prime, and be ideal warriors ready to fight in Tak's name
When I read it, I wondered why the 3 laws that had been the core of the DL universe had suddenly gone down the drain, especially the one about Evil feeding on itself.
It's called evolution. The forces of evil evolved a little. Problem is, that fundamental law still came back and would later splinter the Knight's order into cutthroat mercenaries and thugs after Tak and the other gods went away after the Summer of Chaos (Tak really just resting, the other gods were duped) Why did the order splinter? No divine guidance, and no charismatic leaders with a true purpose to unite the knights with anymore. Evil fed on itself in the end. But since you apparently didn't read any of the later books (as I've suggested from my first post on this thread) I guess I can understand your not knowing that.
(besides which, the Solamnics were so tied up with their own egos, the the Oath and Measure, they were in a state of Chaos leading up to Sturm's sacrifice. The good guys who are supposed to be so noble and defeat evil were defeating themselves until Sturm died for what was right. I didn't hear any complaining about that, but apparently the forces of evil doing something against their M.O. is big no no, while it's okay for the forces of good to devolve into bickering and self importance, sort of like a force of evil. *shrugs*)
Call me a nostalgic but I liked a world where Good managed to overcome with discipline what it couldn't defeat with brute force and where Evil, as strong as it became, was unable to achieve lasting victory because of inner bickering.
That still happened. Again, if you kept reading the books, you'd have seen it did. Evil couldn't maintain a lasting victory since they resorted to backstabbing, bickering, self preservation, greed, etc. Ariakas (or 'kan', always get those 2 mixxed up) was killed by his second in command. The new order commander was Targonne, a man motivated purely by greed. The order broke down into mercenaries and thugs. The things you said you liked were maintained to a certain extent. That's why I say you should try some of the books instead of looking down your nose at something you know little about. I think you might be pleasantly surprised. If you read them, and still don't like them, then that's great, you've made an informed opinion, and not one influenced by others. If I can't agree with you then, I can at least respect your viewpoint.
Amusingly, despite Evil (on Krynn) having access to an incredibly diverse variety of minions, even whole races created for the sole purpose of conquering the world (draconians anyone?)
, etc.. I never noticed people saying something like "Hmm, Evil has so many minions, and with innate magical powers too! Good should have counterparts for, say, draconians".
See the BoK- Noble Draconians.
So, in essence, what little advantage Good might have just has to be given to Evil as well, oh and in an enhanced version too if possible.
Again, your jumping to conclusions here from the previous discussion. Evil just recruited more people, not better. They STILL resorted to infighting and backstabbing in the end. They were efficient, not better, and with larger forces.
There are times when I think Gilean must bang his head against the walls when trying to maintain his precious "balance"...
This is a great visual, and I so totally agree.
Ok.. now if the Balance is a for sure thing, than whenever there is great good in the world, it will eventually swing back. Its also been stated that the more that the pendolum is one way..it will swing just as much the other way. So if you are a good god.. and you saw everyone getting along nicely and the founding of great nations that were all good..wouldn't you be scared as hell? I mean that means that eventually something really bad is going to happen to make it more "balanced" again. "I just founded a great empire that has just rules, is kind to everyone, and does nice things throughout the world!"... Mishakal "You idiot! You'll ruin us all.. now there will be a new empire that will grow that will cause famine, sickness, and death! Make the empire have a balanced view so that there wont be more evil!"
Except the funny thing is, the gods (particularly Takhisis) have been VERY close in permanently swinging the proverbial pendulum one way. It's the free will of the mortal races of Krynn that are always the forces that swing the Pendulum back. Takhisis won during the second Dragon War (I think that's the one). She actually, completely and fully manifested as her 5 headed dragon form on the material plane. She would have won the big cosmic game except for a human, dragon and a minotaur and a pesky magic lance. The gods don't overtly do anything to maintain the balance themselves (exception being the cataclysm), other than provide the choices to their disciples who then decide whether to act on that priveleged information or not. Lord Soth is a good example of the free will to not act on priveleged information. Given, the end result was the fiery mountain that killed thousands of people, but free will was still there. Fizban is just fortunate that his chosen "heroes of the lance" decided to help out Goldmoon and Riverwind, otherwise Tak might very well have won during the War of the Lance.
The people would eventually know that they can't have a world full of kindness, caring, and "goodness" because there has to be a balance and ****, pillage, murder, etc are on the opposite side and must exist.
Like yin and yang. Darkness and shadow cannot exist without light. Good is good because evil is there as comparison to drive and measure it's main principles. If one were to win over the other permanently and decisively, then the world would fall to ruin, just like how Raistlin discovered the hard way.
That means to make a perfect world.. a person would have to do as minimal good and evil things as possible and just exist.
No, people are wont to do whatever is in their nature. Every major decision though effects the world like dropping a rock in a body of water, and seeing the ripples echo away from the point of origin. Like the old saying if you force it to rain where there should be none, then somewhere else, there will be drought. Everything in balance, everything effects everything else.
To me, this makes a very boring life. Pretty much close to robots. Or they can have a lot of goodness, while having a lot of evilness. Which makes for a bleak hopeless world when you know no matter how much good you try to do, something will come along and be "equaly" evil.
We live a pretty good life being from 'free' countries. There are people in the world who live in squalor and famine while being ruled over by warlords and tyrants. Some of the principles of Dragonlance can be found in real life as well.
It annoys me that Paladine said that there has to be a Balance. To me, that is something that Gilean would say, or any other neutral god. Not a god who would want way more good than evil. I somehow don't see a god of good wanting just a little bit more good than evil, but thinking that they should be close for the sake of the Balance. They would want a world filled with good, and evil not around anymore.
To a certain extent I agree with this, but then again, Paladine is probably more realistic and understands how things operate. Besides, when good took over last time, it went too far, and a quarter of the continent was sunk to the bottom of the ocean. He knows the consequences, so he tries to avoid good completely dominating evil. He just wants people to be happy and not suffer under the proverbial boots of oppression.
You say the Balance is like ying/yang and I agree to a certain extent. But, there is nothing that says the we have to have evil acts going on, to know the value of good. ****, murder, pillaging has existed for years. If in Krynn, the world went over to Good, and everyone was nice, caring, and thoughfull of others I maintain that this world can exist. It doesnt just blow up from lack of evil acts. These people may see "goodness" as a given, but its still a world of love and kindness. There is no way that someone can convince me that you have to have evil in the world. Maybe you need to have it in order to show that what you are doing is considered good, but evil acts don't need to exist so that good acts can. They just wouldnt be defined as good, just as everyday practice. To me, this is what Paladine should strive for. A world that remembers the horrors of the past, but is good. They all believe in kindess, justice, and love.
Paladine being realistic is understandable. But to have the same tenets as Gilean, a god of neutrality bothers me. To say "I realize there will always be a little bit of evil but I try to make it as small as possible" is a lot different than "Well there needs to be a balance between good and evil". Balance means... well balance.. both sides equal. Maybe not at all times but if you look throughout time, it will even out. And a god of good advocating as much evil as good bothers me.
As I said before, why even try if you know that things will balance out? I realize good people may still try in order to better their lives and maybe loved ones, but hell that screws over someone else because there needs to be a "balance", remember? The evil gods to me would just get frustrated and throw their hands up in the air. Why should they even attempt to do anything, it will eventually swing the other way. They compete for worshippers, but now they know that no matter what, it will all even out. The good deities have to watch out how much "good" they bring into the world.. because eventually there will be just as much evil. So don't do really really really nice things because that means evil is on its way.
Its just...annoying. I like the idea of the Balance and neutrality striving to keep it always so. I don't like the idea of the Balance automatically happening. Its annoying and bothersome. But maybe others like how the world will automatically fix itself. To me, watching the peoples of the world try to fix themselves is more enjoyable than already knowing "eh it'll work out".
Not 10 times more efficient. The Solamnics were content, not thinking anything bad was going to happen, so they were completely caught off guard by the Knights of Takhisis. Plus, the Solamnic order wasn't doing any heavy recruiting. They were STILL more selective of their recruits than the Knights of Takhisis. Caramon and Tika's sons were allowed to enter basically because they were the sons of the heroes of the lance, so they were allowed to enter.
Takhisis' army went around, and all but took recruits by force. (they were 'offered' the opportunity to join the knights. If they refused, the recruit was simply taken IIRC, but this wasn't necessary in most cases due to Tak visiting recruits dreams to make gathering of said recruits later, much easier for the full blown knights who were sent around to gather them). Plus, think about it, you have largish towns all over the place. You get a few operatives per town, and give them "the vision" so they know who to grab for recruiting purposes. It's not like the knights of Tak send out a different 3-4 people for EACH AND EVERY recruit. Operating in such a fashion would allow them to gather people rather quickly, and without much of a fuss (so they aren't prisoners in most cases, but going of their own free will, so they just gather at a certain place, then all go to the Knight's camp together). That kind of tactic is not that far fetched if you think about it. Then, all those young boys that are taken are:
a) young and impressionable, thereby easy to mold into the ideal knight for whatever purpose you want them to serve (ie easy to brainwash)
b) serve as young initiates that in 20-30 years will hit their prime, and be ideal warriors ready to fight in Tak's name
That's still a lot of (prospective) LE folks. You would think someone would notice they had disappeared.
But I maintain "more efficient", at least while Ariakan was in command. The background of the Knights of Takhisis made clear they had a code of conduct that aimed at one goal above all others: prevent dissension from jeopardizing the chain of command or the mission. That's one heck of an amount of discipline to ask from Evil folks, yes, even LE folks. When you see how much the supposedly LG/LN Solamnic Knights were still bickering among themselves, it gives you pause.
But since you apparently didn't read any of the later books (as I've suggested from my first post on this thread) I guess I can understand your not knowing that.
I've read everything up to Dragons of Summer Flame, then passed on the 5th Age books, and took up reading again with the War of Souls trilogy. So, yes, I am aware the Knights of Takhisis have fallen on bad times. I still believe it took way too long to happen and the KoT shouldn't have existed in the first place.
The good guys who are supposed to be so noble and defeat evil were defeating themselves until Sturm died for what was right. I didn't hear any complaining about that, but apparently the forces of evil doing something against their M.O. is big no no, while it's okay for the forces of good to devolve into bickering and self importance, sort of like a force of evil. *shrugs*)
It's called "redemption", something Good is supposedly good at (no pun intended). Besides, I don't remember one of the 3 laws of the DL universe being "Good feeds on itself". So, yes, that's Good's one saving grace. When they turn into morons, someone will rise from the crowd and save them from their own stupidity. Good is supposed to be able to pull that off but not Evil.
That's why I say you should try some of the books instead of looking down your nose at something you know little about. I think you might be pleasantly surprised. If you read them, and still don't like them, then that's great, you've made an informed opinion, and not one influenced by others. If I can't agree with you then, I can at least respect your viewpoint.
I may not have read many 5th Age books but those few I have read have only comforted me in my opinion things didn't evolve as they should have. As you pointed out, that's only my viewpoint. Whether or not you respect it doesn't modify it.
Note that it is not a critic of the writing skills of the 5th Age authors. I disagree with how the story evolved, not how they wrote about it.
Frostdawn, what you say has certain merit. My point is that some people say the Balance is "a given" and I say there is no way it can be, or it ruins the world.
Totally agree. Aside from the cataclysm, the gods have been fortunate that the mortal races have kept the balance themselves. Free will is the key in Dragonlance, and the potential is always there for things to go horribly wrong. Aside from the Cataclysm, things have gone along somewhat smoothly though, so Krynn has been lucky. (or is it all by design of the High god?)
You say the Balance is like ying/yang and I agree to a certain extent. But, there is nothing that says the we have to have evil acts going on, to know the value of good. ****, murder, pillaging has existed for years. If in Krynn, the world went over to Good, and everyone was nice, caring, and thoughfull of others I maintain that this world can exist. It doesnt just blow up from lack of evil acts. These people may see "goodness" as a given, but its still a world of love and kindness.
The only downside is the case of the Kingpriest and Ishtar. Good and kindness ruled the day. Evil and evil deeds were being squashed. People were happy. Then they got to worry that evil may rear it's ugly head and ruin thier utopia. They took things too far by judging people as evil based on their mere thoughts. The person who brought about this good was so full of himself, and sure of his cause of righteousness, that he became arrogant and nigh unstoppable, hence the fiery mountain. The problem is, good can be taken too far, and without evil or neutral acts to balance them out a little, they will go too far. The Crusdades is a good real world example. Everyone is convinced of their goal and purpose, which is both noble and just and good, yet many many people died and suffered. In principle, I agree with you, in practice I don't think it's realistic.
There is no way that someone can convince me that you have to have evil in the world. Maybe you need to have it in order to show that what you are doing is considered good, but evil acts don't need to exist so that good acts can.
Agreed. Good or evil need not exist for the sake of existing, just to keep the other in check and from going too far.
They just wouldnt be defined as good, just as everyday practice. To me, this is what Paladine should strive for. A world that remembers the horrors of the past, but is good. They all believe in kindess, justice, and love.
Alot of Krynn seems to live life this way. Small towns, even large ones have a populace that exists in a state of relative happiness and works most of the time. Sometimes people become too greedy or power hungry, and others will suffer as a result. But more or less, people carry on with their lives and are content (between the wars that is). This is a state of neutrality, not necessarily good or evil. Maintaining the status quo for a given society or group of peoples.
Paladine being realistic is understandable. But to have the same tenets as Gilean, a god of neutrality bothers me. To say "I realize there will always be a little bit of evil but I try to make it as small as possible" is a lot different than "Well there needs to be a balance between good and evil". Balance means... well balance.. both sides equal. Maybe not at all times but if you look throughout time, it will even out. And a god of good advocating as much evil as good bothers me.
Ah, gotcha. On this I agree. Paladine's pragmatism aside, he should be more of an advocate of good, and good doing versus playing both sides down the middle as he tends to do. He merely stops evil, and his tenets stop there, when he should try to bring more good in the world, and not just stop evil to maintain the status quo.
As I said before, why even try if you know that things will balance out? I realize good people may still try in order to better their lives and maybe loved ones, but hell that screws over someone else because there needs to be a "balance", remember?
Small scale happenings like that I think are exceptions to the rule. Working harder to make more money to make a better life for you and yours is fine. Going out and slaughtering a bunch of ogres as a preventative measure against ogre attacks would tend to be more of a balance issue. Maybe this action draws the attention of a rival ogre tribe that sees a chance to take over a now weakened tribe. The new leader winds up being even more of a tyrant, and makes life even worse for the people. Or, the other way around, other villages see the merit in doing the same thing, so they start a mini crusade to cleanse the ogres from lands that neighbor other mortal races. The villages expand, thier borders expand as well. More ogre hunting, etc. I think the scale of happenings has more of an effect on balance moreso than anything else.
Its just...annoying. I like the idea of the Balance and neutrality striving to keep it always so. I don't like the idea of the Balance automatically happening. Its annoying and bothersome. But maybe others like how the world will automatically fix itself. To me, watching the peoples of the world try to fix themselves is more enjoyable than already knowing "eh it'll work out".
I agree to a certain point. I still think it's the free will of the people seeing the need to take a proactive position in maintaining the status quo (ie neutrality) that keeps the balance. It typically happens too, because this is a fantasy world where evil will eventually be defeated, and good will redeem it's own, etc. Even the conflict between good and evil is an act of neutrality asserting it's influence on the environment.
That's still a lot of (prospective) LE folks. You would think someone would notice they had disappeared.
But I maintain "more efficient", at least while Ariakan was in command. The background of the Knights of Takhisis made clear they had a code of conduct that aimed at one goal above all others: prevent dissension from jeopardizing the chain of command or the mission. That's one heck of an amount of discipline to ask from Evil folks, yes, even LE folks. When you see how much the supposedly LG/LN Solamnic Knights were still bickering among themselves, it gives you pause.
The KoT were LE, not CE, so it wasn't that bad. Like you said earlier, some of the former dragon army members were too chaotic and weren't invited into the order. If the Knights were CE, than Ariakan would have had to be quite "the man" to keep them all together.
The Solamnics were bickering mostly because of their blind adherance to the Oath and Measure, and self doubt. That, and they didn't have a charismatic leader, let alone something to bolster their own moral codes until Sturm's sacrifice. Their weaknesses were later attributed to a lower membership in the order, as well as complacency (ie not expecting a new, organized force in such vast numbers)
I've read everything up to Dragons of Summer Flame, then passed on the 5th Age books, and took up reading again with the War of Souls trilogy. So, yes, I am aware the Knights of Takhisis have fallen on bad times. I still believe it took way too long to happen and the KoT shouldn't have existed in the first place.
Ahh, so you have read at least a few books in the Age of Mortals. That's good. My point of contention was not to judge stories unless you know about them firsthand. Making snap decisions from secondhand sources is what irked me, and inspired me to enter into this discussion. If your opinions are founded AFTER having given the stories a chance, then I have no problem with that.
It's called "redemption", something Good is supposedly good at (no pun intended). Besides, I don't remember one of the 3 laws of the DL universe being "Good feeds on itself". So, yes, that's Good's one saving grace. When they turn into morons, someone will rise from the crowd and save them from their own stupidity. Good is supposed to be able to pull that off but not Evil.
Then again, Tak hasn't been known to play by everyone else's rules. She provided wizardly magic to her gray robes when the gods of magic were supposed to control that. Big no no. She took the world away from the rest of the pantheon. Another big no no. So she approved the formation of a unified, organized force. In the grand scheme of things, that is a REALLY small matter, given her penchant for doing things against the natural order of things.
I may not have read many 5th Age books but those few I have read have only comforted me in my opinion things didn't evolve as they should have. As you pointed out, that's only my viewpoint. Whether or not you respect it doesn't modify it.
That's cool, all I was after was an informed opinion. Being irate about something you don't know much about, is ignorance to me, and was my main concern.