I know that there was a lot of pre-designed material that the setting had to conform to- and the planes were designed to be portaled among, but I would have liked to spend more time floating through the Astral on a magically-powered ship, or caravanning across planar landscapes. True, there were non-portal ways to get around like this already in place, but the main mode of transportation remained portals, and I think that this meant that you missed a lot of scenery in between, and you usually only saw the parts of Planescape that lay on either side of that glowing doorway.
The answer to my opinion of what should be changed was....
1. The slightly small feel to things....
The Map of Sigil bothered me the most to be honest. I would have preferred the implication really that Sigil was a population of a seven hundred billion or more individuals if they weren't always finding new neighborhoods. Thought is what moves things along in the planes but the only place that I found that to be the case was really the Guide to the Astral Plane.
A more unique feel that incorporated Victorian, Space Age, Middle Ages, and more might have been preferrable.
2. The limited nature of the Great Wheel...
*is already being beaten with sticks by the Planescaper fans*
OW! OW! OW!
I remember a dragon magazine that had a weird astrolobe like cover to it that was beautifully Planescape to me and dealt with almost all travelling the planes. It gave a hundred or more adventure ideas that basically had players entering alternate realities, time travelling, and visitations by beings claiming to be the pen ultimate embodimenst.
Planescape started getting away from the "Cosmology of Greyhawk" feel that it had by introducing Exemplars, possible origins for Asmodeus in Guide to Hell, and other purely strange stuff only for the planes but it was only towards the end.
I would have like it stated that there was an infinite number of alternate planes and the Great Wheel was just shorthand for referring to them, even amongst the Nine Hells (i.e. Set has his own plane, its just linked to the Nine Hells third layer through some strange method etc).
3. The Factions being the only factions allowed in Sigil
I would have preferred the impliance that these were just the largest operating ones by anyone's glance and that dozens more could, probably did, and might be operating in Sigil. It's just that everyone preaching their religion usually found it better to find some common ground lest they just be ignored.
"Fight the Queen of Darkness."
"Which one?"
"Eh?"
"You know...Unseelie Fae, Shar, Beleth, Lolth, Takhasis..."
"The last one!"
"Oh? Is she Tiamat or not? Could you answer me this for once?"
"Ummm I dunno."
"Then why should I fight her?"
4. Not exploring more deeply into the history of the planes
I really liked the hints building up to the origins of the D&D universe personally but they were few and far between. It would have been better to have concrete answers to the natrue of the Blood War and previous celestial-devil conflicts etc. The fact that they weren't allowed to use the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes because of their often real world demonology names was a crying out shame though.
I also felt the Upper Planes got the shaft because no one wanted to talk about "goody goods"
5. The Novels for Planescape are above and beyond the most wretched black wholes of gamer inspiration useleness ever put to print til Frank Herbert's son decided to write with Kevin J Andersen
To avoid annoying the board, I will not talk about their value as literature but the fact that they were valueless as campaign supplemental material. The Trilogy was about an attack on Sigil that had no point to it whatsoever or ramifications while the Lady fo Pain novel revealed nothing about it save for attacking Greek myth.
I'm happy to take PMs who want to comment on their disgust for literary merit.
6. Faction War
Nuff said, its the Prism Pentad/Dragons of Summer Flame "This killed the setting" of Planescape
I would have refused to shut down Planescape with the ring Faction War started incomplete. "Just one more module, that's it. And then you can bring in the entire Greyhawk pantheon to destroy Sigil if you want, not just Vecna!"
By the way: it always struck me as interesting that TSR shut them down just after they'd covered the Inner Planes, which meant the entire cosmology had gotten written about.
Secondly, I'm not sure how much I like the Great Wheel layout. It's nice for the philosophical implications of the outer planes, but I think I like the approach Monte Cook takes in Beyond Countless Doorways better.
If Planescape isn't completely surreal, then the Abyss is nothing more than a slightly extra-nasty part of Mordor.
Mechanus isn't just a really organized place where organized people do organized things in an organized fashion. Not even that to an extreme degree. The ground you walk on, the air you breathe, is all the physical manifestation of people's adherence to rules, respect for authority, habitual behavior, and sense of duty. The Plane of Fire isn't just a really hot place where stuff burns. It is pure flame, the source of all fire.
I don't think I even explained it right.
I know that the game designers knew this clearly, but I think it could have been suggested to the players more clearly.
I remember a dragon magazine that had a weird astrolobe like cover to it that was beautifully Planescape to me
You mean #213. Since that was also the cover of the Planes of Law box, it's not surprising that it seems Planescapey. The illustration depicts the Modron Orrery. It's a magical model of the multiverse made by the modrons.
I also liked the article you were talking about. Rereading it, it's slightly on the silly side in parts, but it's very imaginative.
visitations by beings claiming to be the pen ultimate embodimenst.
Penultimate means "next to last."
I would have preferred the impliance that these were just the largest operating ones by anyone's glance and that dozens more could, probably did, and might be operating in Sigil.
Others are mentioned. From the insignificant, like the Rosebringers (mentioned in the Factol's Manifesto), who desire to fill the whole of the multiverse with the scent of roses and work openly toward this end, to groups like the Prolongers and Incantifers who are very dangerous, but must work alone and underground. There's also a former factol of the Expansionists running around, probably recruiting followers. The Ring-Givers work in Sigil (Jeremo the Natterer, one of the Cage's preeminent citizens, is a Ring-Giver, as is the deva Unity-of-Rings, sort of). I'm sure other sects, like the Merkhants and the Opposition, were in Sigil at times.
As long as the sects didn't make a play for the city's government, the Lady of Pain didn't act. The Lady's ban was apparently only against factions, not sects, which means that only fifteen could be part of the group running the city's government. That's why after the Faction War, all the factions didn't have to leave - they can still be influential, but they're reduced to the status of sects.
The fact that they weren't allowed to use the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes because of their often real world demonology names was a crying out shame though.
Dispater appeared in "Fires of Dis." Orcus was in The Great Modron March and Dead Gods. Pazuzu was in Planes of Chaos, though he was renamed.
I also felt the Upper Planes got the shaft because no one wanted to talk about "goody goods"
It's a shame that there wasn't a Faces of Good: the Celestials, but then again not such a shame because Chris Perkins would have written it, as he did Warriors of Heaven, and he doesn't seem to have been on the same page as Colin McComb was.
As it was, the Upper Planes got interesting treatments in the boxed sets and some of the adventures.
"This killed the setting" of Planescape
Tales From the Infinite Staircase and The Inner Planes were both post-Faction War, and they worked alright. Faction War affected very little, except the city of Sigil itself. At the very least, it's an interesting turn, and it's not necessarily permanent.
How does that figure? I'm honestly curious frankly as I don't own warriors of hell and very much enjoyed the particular work by Colin.
I agree that the point of Planescape is largely that everything you encounter will ultimately shake your idea of the universe's fundamentally having a point and you will react to it in a number of different fashions
* You will go insane (Xaocists)
* You will find an order that you will desperately struggle to protect or promote (Harmonium, Mercykillers, Godsmen, Sign of One, Ciphers)
* You will find the universe disgusting and rail against it (Revolutionary league, Bleak Cable, Athar)
* You will become jaded beyond imagination (the entire population of Sigil to some extent)
I basically also like to think of Sigil as ultimately a gigantic plane of outcasts and odds and ends abandoned by the rest fo the universe since I always felt that the Fiends and Celestials got the short end of the stick wise.
Sigil is a place that should be, in my place, where you go when the illusions are dropped and it is possible to have a Friendly Fiend, a Angel and a Slaadi in love, and essentially Douglas Adams is a perfectly normal citizen.
I think Planescape never went FAR ENOUGH in my opinion beyond its D&D roots and should have inserted technology amongst other things personally. Even if magic was and always will be cheaper and more effective
One thing I would have tried to do differently myself would be the way the designers handled infinities: they were careless in just saying 'and there are infinite numbers of this species' or 'infinite layers of the abyss' whilst at the same time asssigning finite numbers to other species/planes (e.g. the 3,333 gehreleths). Given that the rest of the setting actually feels like it works, (particularly the economy of Sigil, built up around the portals) this seemed like a major oversight.
Oh, and I didn't like Faction War. I liked the factions, and I liked Sigil with the factions. Although... some more, central information about or options for sects would have been good.
However, by far the best thing about Planescape (and the reason it is such a loss) is that it continued and expanded the school of thought that had grown with Ravenloft and Dark Sun: what if, rather than just running around killing everything you meet, you actually do some roleplaying? Less rules, more story!
Maybe the Spire would have been replaced by a Great Tree, its roots being in the Material Planes, its trunk in the Concordant Domain, and its branches leading to these other outer planes. Some of these outer planes could be seen like fruits from the Great Tree, slowly maturing until they're dropped, their content appearing somewhere in the Outlands, and from then joining one of the Wheel planes, or becoming a new Prime plane.
More inner planes, as well. With no energy, elemental, quasi, para, and quasipara distinctions -- all would be elemental dimensions, different ways of viewing one of the constituents of the whole universe. The Fire plane would be the echo of all that is Fire in all planes. The Sonic plane would be the echo of all that is sound in all planes. And so on.
Groovy.
Oh, and the Cant, only in Sigil.
Pazuzu was in Planes of Chaos, though he was renamed.
I think that Pazuriel is a better name for him, personally. It has a sort of fallen celestial feel to it and doesn't sound like it would be a species of lawful evil fiend.
More outer planes. The Wheel would still have been made of the various alignment-related outer planes, but outer-planes whose defining point isn't in their alignment would have fit elsewhere.
........
More inner planes, as well. With no energy, elemental, quasi, para, and quasipara distinctions -- all would be elemental dimensions, different ways of viewing one of the constituents of the whole universe. The Fire plane would be the echo of all that is Fire in all planes. The Sonic plane would be the echo of all that is sound in all planes. And so on....QUOTE]
I actually implemented some ways of adding new outerplanes and inner planes. I added in an elemental plane of wood, and flesh. Using the vairant found in MAnual of the Planes and using Neth who really seemed to fit since I had decided to make the lemenetal planes sentient. both of which orbit around the other elemental planes. Also added the plane of fairie variant which orbits the outerplanes, as will any other ones that dont really fit an alighnment. And I'm considering pusing in a new lower plane, or possibly a new layer of Hades... Havent decided how to set heat up yet. But anyways it woudl represent the shadow lands from Oriental aDventures, and I would porobably be adding stuff like that through out.
I think that Pazuriel is a better name for him, personally. It has a sort of fallen celestial feel to it and doesn't sound like it would be a species of lawful evil fiend.
Pazrael, you mean. Probably a combination of Pazuzu and Azrael, which does make it look sort of fallen-celestial-ish.
I like Pazuzu, although now that you mention it it does sound unfortunately like baatezu. Still, it's a name with a lot of mythological and demological resonance, something baatezu lacks.
Panzuriel is the evil god of krakens, merrows, and other foul beasts of the deep sea, banished by Deep Sashelas and a coalition of other watery gods to the Gray Waste long ago. The similarity in names between Panzuriel and Pazrael is unfortunate, and all the more unforgiveable since I believe that Carl Sargent came up with both of them.
Pazrael, you mean. Probably a combination of Pazuzu and Azrael, which does make it look sort of fallen-celestial-ish.
More evidence that if there is meaning in the universe it cannot be found before the daily caffeine intake begins.
I like Pazuzu, although now that you mention it it does sound unfortunately like baatezu. Still, it's a name with a lot of mythological and demological resonance, something baatezu lacks.
Hm... wasn't Pazuzu the name of the Gargoyle Professor Hubert Farnsworth created from the Futurama episode "Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles"?
I only mention this because a lot of the writers on Futurama are avid dnd fans (witness the Beholder in "How Hermes Requisitioned His Groove Back" and Gary Gygax in "Anthology of Interest I"). /offtopic
Hm... wasn't Pazuzu the name of the Gargoyle Professor Hubert Farnsworth created from the Futurama episode "Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles"?
It is also the name of the demon in The Exorcist
Pazuzu was just a type of monster in Dragon Warriors.
Anecdotically, it was also the name of a demon or god or something like that from mesopotamian myths.
Typical representation:
I know that there was a lot of pre-designed material that the setting had to conform to- and the planes were designed to be portaled among, but I would have liked to spend more time floating through the Astral on a magically-powered ship, or caravanning across planar landscapes. True, there were non-portal ways to get around like this already in place, but the main mode of transportation remained portals, and I think that this meant that you missed a lot of scenery in between, and you usually only saw the parts of Planescape that lay on either side of that glowing doorway.
There's a simple fix for that; don't give the PCs a direct route to their destination. Force them to go plane-hopping through multiple portals with cross-country treks between them.
It gave a hundred or more adventure ideas that basically had players entering alternate realities, time travelling, and visitations by beings claiming to be the pen ultimate embodimenst.
Nitpicks:
1) ripvanwormer beat me to the correct definition of "penultimate".
2) You can't just be an embodiment; you have to be an embodiment *of* something.
The Novels for Planescape are above and beyond the most wretched black wholes of gamer inspiration useleness ever put to print til Frank Herbert's son decided to write with Kevin J Andersen.
You should read Fire and Dust.
One thing I would have tried to do differently myself would be the way the designers handled infinities: they were careless in just saying 'and there are infinite numbers of this species' or 'infinite layers of the abyss'
I still say there are 666 layers. The only reason some of them have numbers higher than that is that the tanar'ri, being chaotic, don't much care about numbering them accurately. :P
To answer the original question, I can't think of any major, over-arching elements of Planescape that I really disliked. There were parts that didn't do much for me (some of the factions, for example), but as for things that I really wish they'd done differently, most of them are pretty specific. Those that come to mind:
1) I think that Ysgard and the Beastlands ought to swap places; I just don't see much about the Beastlands that qualifies it as Good. Of course, that's not Planescape's fault; it's been like that since 1st edition.
2) In the same vein, Ice should be the negative quasiplane of Water, NOT a paraplane between Water and Air. Again, not Planescape's fault.
3) I'm really glad the rule about magic items losing their bonuses got nerfed in 3rd edition.
Wyvern
1) ripvanwormer beat me to the correct definition of "penultimate".
2) You can't just be an embodiment; you have to be an embodiment *of* something.
Maybe Pipps was referring to "pen ultimate embodiments", you know, like Zaphod Beeblebrox's planet full of intelligent biros?
You should read Fire and Dust.
Fire and dust was a decent read that captured the feel of Planescape and the philosophy of the factions quite nicely. Reading James Gardner's thoughts on the sequels , however, make me really, really, really glad they never got made.
Niles Cavendish as an identical twin? That has got to be the dumbest, most lame-brained, far-fetched, preposterous stillborn turkey of an idea ever known to man.
Cue Star Wars scene:
DV: "Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father"
LS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him!"
DV: "Luke, I am your father...'s identical twin! Now give Uncle Vader a sloppy kiss."
LS: "NOOOOOOoooooo"
Of course, it is entirely possible that Gardner was just egging on the fans...
I still say there are 666 layers. The only reason some of them have numbers higher than that is that the tanar'ri, being chaotic, don't much care about numbering them accurately. :P
And therein lies my problem: on the one hand you have lots of infinities lying around, leading to massive problems with the logical mechanics of the setting, and on the other you're forced to resort to pseudo-Christian stuff (like latching onto the number 666) - which is something I try to avoid, emphasising that it's 'tanar'ri' and 'Baatezu' rather than 'demons' and 'devils', and downplaying the whole dualistic good/evil thing.
I guess I should just resign myself to the fact that it doesn't make sense, and isn't supposed to. *sob* It seems the Bleakers were right after all.
And therein lies my problem: on the one hand you have lots of infinities lying around, leading to massive problems with the logical mechanics of the setting
The guvners could explain it all away. One of them that we've had to detain kept prattling on about how their are only 100 true layers of the abyss, but that their is a sublayer corresponding to every rational number. It always disturbed me a little (I hate it when barmies get that look of clarity in their eyes and then spout out some screed) when I'd go in to sedate him and he'd fix his gaze on me and say "Sil…you've got to believe me, the only reason that they don't destroy us all is because they can't leave their plane unless they live on an INTEGER…INTANGIR…SKETCH…GLITCH…I have infinite Illuminas…mwahahahahahahaha…). Creepiest halfling I ever did meet.
Adding aspects of Christian and Jewish mysticism only fits with how badly misrepresented some folks like Zeus have been malaigned.
Of course in my game, Ao is god of both Faerun and Earth with Earth's gods being completely banished because everyone was doing such an incredibly poor job.
(cost us some spellcasting I'm afraid)
I still say there are 666 layers. The only reason some of them have numbers higher than that is that the tanar'ri, being chaotic, don't much care about numbering them accurately. :P Wyvern
Or at all, really. It's the Guvners who numbered and named most of them.
It's the Guvners who numbered and named most of them.
lol, i'm just remembering when my characters found out (the hard way) that the layers of the Abyss are numbered in order of discovery, not in the order which they, uh, descend (for lack of a better word).
PC: Ok, we took the portal out of Sigil that got us to the 132 layer of the Abyss. We need to get to the 131rd layer. Lets find the way to the next one up."
Me:
PC: What?
Me:
Reading James Gardner's thoughts on the sequels , however, make me really, really, really glad they never got made....
Of course, it is entirely possible that Gardner was just egging on the fans...
I'm certain he was. Note the part where he says something along the lines of "Since I'm never going to write these books anyway, I can invent as many ridiculous coincidences as I want."
(cost us some spellcasting I'm afraid)
make the exemplars of alingments.ie
demogorgon,asmodeus,ssesndan,primus etc.
like 10x as strong as the strongest power,same goes for the elemental lords.if anything should be beyond stats its these.
LoP is exemplar of TN.
Titania becomes exemplar of eladrin.
slight edit to the inner planes.no quasi planes and the para planes are lighting,metal,wood&Ice.
no anchient batoorians.
all exemplar races are made from souls,end of story.
i think that about covers it.
demogorgon,asmodeus,ssesndan,primus etc.
like 10x as strong as the strongest power,same goes for the elemental lords.if anything should be beyond stats its these.
But the entire point is that Demogorgon isn't inherently any more powerful then any other demon. He's strong, but any tanar'ri can be just as powerful if he can convince the rest that he's as powerful. Similarly, just because Primus represents the abstract concept of law, while Cuthburt the more specific concept of retrubution agasint lawbreakers, doesn't meant that in a fair and unlikely fight Primus should kill Cuthbert. I mean, Primus doesn't even have worshipers-it's like saykng apples shoulcd beat razberreis, by virtue of being actual fruit rather then berries.
LoP is exemplar of TN.
No. The entire point is "she" doesn't act as one with a discernable . She could be a risen fiend, a fallen celestial, the overpower of the multiverse, an inevitable, a manifestation of the city, a psudonatural , six squirrels-all these or something unknown.
slight edit to the inner planes.no quasi planes and the para planes are lighting,metal,wood&Ice.
Ignoring the fact I like the quasi and paraelemental: would it be fire-lightning-air-ice-water-earth-metal-fire, or what? I can't see how it would work in terms of mixing them. And I'm not quite sure how a plane of metal or wood would work (the "elementa"l plane of wood in the motP was, in my opinion, just a method of throwing the World Tree into the mix-nothing really elemental about it).
all exemplar races are made from souls,end of story.
But that detracts, not adds to the setting. Yugoloths, Slaad, Modrons, and some tanar'ri gain uniqueness, at the expense of none as far as I can see.
But the entire point is that Demogorgon isn't inherently any more powerful then any other demon. He's strong, but any tanar'ri can be just as powerful if he can convince the rest that he's as powerful. Similarly, just because Primus represents the abstract concept of law, while Cuthburt the more specific concept of retrubution agasint lawbreakers, doesn't meant that in a fair and unlikely fight Primus should kill Cuthbert. I mean, Primus doesn't even have worshipers-it's like saykng apples shoulcd beat razberreis, by virtue of being actual fruit rather then berries.
No. The entire point is "she" doesn't act as one with a discernable . She could be a risen fiend, a fallen celestial, the overpower of the multiverse, an inevitable, a manifestation of the city, a psudonatural , six squirrels-all these or something unknown.
Ignoring the fact I like the quasi and paraelemental: would it be fire-lightning-air-ice-water-earth-metal-fire, or what? I can't see how it would work in terms of mixing them. And I'm not quite sure how a plane of metal or wood would work (the "elementa"l plane of wood in the motP was, in my opinion, just a method of throwing the World Tree into the mix-nothing really elemental about it).
But that detracts, not adds to the setting. Yugoloths, Slaad, Modrons, and some tanar'ri gain uniqueness, at the expense of none as far as I can see.
most of it:my setting.its what i would do.
elementals:basiclly.metal its like the plane of earth except its all super heated metal o_o.wood think 360' rainforest,trees growing on trees.
I can't see how it would work in terms of mixing them. And I'm not quite sure how a plane of metal or wood would work (the "elementa"l plane of wood in the motP was, in my opinion, just a method of throwing the World Tree into the mix-nothing really elemental about it).
No, the Elemental Plane of Wood was a nod to the five elements of Taoism - Earth, Fire, Water, Metal, and Wood. The idea is that you wouldn't want to use the Aristotlean elements in an oriental campaign. The author, Jeff Grubb, also used the notion of elemental wood when he wrote the Spelljammer boxed set, which had five major kinds of planets: airworlds, earthworlds, fireworlds, waterworlds, and liveworlds. The last were living plants the size of planets, or planets overwhelmed by a gigantic plant, and it was noted that occidental and oriental sages disagreed on their significance. Orientals viewed them as proof of their cosmological ideas, while the occidentals merely classified them as unusual earthworlds. In the case of the elemental planes, it could be that occidental sages classify Wood as a demiplane and Air as a full plane, while for the orientals the reverse is true.
The precise cycle of elements in the Chinese cycle of "stems" is: Yang Wood, Yin Wood, Yang Fire, Yin Fire, Yang Earth, Yin Earth, Yang Metal, Yin Metal, Yang Water and Yin Water. That would nicely account for the positive and negative planes.
According to the Chinese, Wood gives birth to Fire, which gives birth to Earth, which gives birth to Metal, which gives birth to Water, which gives birth to Wood again. Earth controls Water, which controls Fire, which controls Metal, which controls Wood, which controls Earth.
The elements of the I Ching, on the other hand, are Heaven, Earth, Wind, Thunder, Water, Fire, Mountain, and Mist. An oriental scholar who accepted both the I Ching schema and the standard five elements as planes would account for a good chunk of the AD&D/Planescape cosmology.
Wood gives birth to Fire, which gives birth to Earth, which gives birth to Metal, which gives birth to Water, which gives birth to Wood again. Earth controls Water, which controls Fire, which controls Metal, which controls Wood, which controls Earth.
Damn. Why do they never say this when they sum stuff up in RPG book? It's not in OA nor in those White Wolf "Kindred of the East" books... And it's very interesting.
Thanks for posting that.
The elements of the I Ching, on the other hand, are Heaven, Earth, Wind, Thunder, Water, Fire, Mountain, and Mist.
Or, to put it another way: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Mineral (Mountain), Lightning (Thunder), Radiance (Heaven) and Steam (Mist).
2. Devils and demons natives to their planes and not imports.
3. No faction war
4. God-like leaders of each major outsider type.(demons, devils, modron, etc.)
1. Stats for the Lady and deities as well.
Was Tir Na Nog ever described in detail, and why is it in the Outlands instead of some chaotic plane?
And I never understood why Limbo is Chaos personified when its usually described in literature as a featureless space more akin to the Astral plane.
But that's more of a problem with the cosmology than the setting per se.
Overall the feel and style of Planescape is superb and requires little alteration.
5. A pet witchlight marauder for Shemeska.
Mount Nav and the entire Hindu pantheon
Not possible ot have a whole cultural pantheon in only one plane in the Great Realms. Gods are sorted by alignment, not by pantheons. So, Thor, Hermes and Bast are together 'cause they're all deemed Chaotic Good; but they are not with Odin, Athena, and Anubis (respectively); because those have other alignments.
Was Tir Na Nog ever described in detail, and why is it in the Outlands instead of some chaotic plane?
Tir Na Og was detailed in On Hallowed Ground.
Not possible ot have a whole cultural pantheon in only one plane in the Great Realms. Gods are sorted by alignment, not by pantheons. So, Thor, Hermes and Bast are together 'cause they're all deemed Chaotic Good; but they are not with Odin, Athena, and Anubis (respectively); because those have other alignments.
This is a common misperception. Gods aren't necessarily sorted by alignment on the Great Wheel. Some pantheons all live together, such as the elves in Arvandor and the Norse deities in Ysgard; other pantheons are scattered throughout the planes, like the Egyptians and the single-sphere gods.
This is a common misperception. Gods aren't necessarily sorted by alignment on the Great Wheel. Some pantheons all live together, such as the elves in Arvandor and the Norse deities in Ysgard; other pantheons are scattered throughout the planes, like the Egyptians and the single-sphere gods.
Those powers whose alignments don't jive with the pantheon also typically have there own realms elsewhere, in addition to their homes on the pantheon's home plane. Loki, for example, has a realm in Pandemonium, and Tyr has a realm on (Celestia or Arcadia?, I can't recall).
I would have reworked on how material was introduced. For example, in writing material for Lawful planes/entities, much of the material would largely be presented as either cannon or truth (although more observant readers would recognize it for propaganda in many cases). Conversely, material on Chaos would be diverging bits and pieces of information that didn't always agree. Neutrality would be in the middle.
Second, I would have intensified the truly "occult" feel of the planes and of the various Outsiders. While I commend what the designers could do with the direction TSR had gone after the 80's fundamentalist scare, I think that this is the one place PS lacked power. The planes were indeed places of wonder in PS; however, I never got the impression that pit fiends were terrifying, supernatural creatures that wanted to consume/corrupt the souls of all Creation. They were just another group of monsters and generals in armies. Solars weren't power, incomprehensible paragons of goodness so much as they were super smart creatures of goodness that hung out with the gods. The Otherness of the planes wasn't there.
Third, I would have intensified the whole Faction thing a bit. I loved the Factions and thought that they offered great flavor. However, the mechanics were sometimes lacking. 3ed would have applied well to the Faction with options for PrCs for them. Alongside the Factions, I would have increased the levels across the board. While I recognized the desire to allow all levels of planar play, I think that the planes, by their nature, really was geared to upper-mid to high level play (12th level and higher)... particularly once one left the Outlands and descended into the various Outer Planes and some of the Inner Planes.
Generally speaking, I liked Sigil the way it was and wouldn't change much of it. However, I would have had The Lady restrict the entry of certain creatures. For example, I don't think she would have allowed pit fiends, balors, or solars; instead, she would have allowed up to hamatulas, vrocks, and astral devas. Sigil would truly be the heart of the Planes in that trade and travel happen there, but it would never reach the level of being... normal. I've always seen it as Faerie in which some of the most innane actions have the more dire or outrageous consequences/reactions. Gods and planar lords would be doing all in their power to get into Sigil without being obvious because they all believe that there's something important there. Their servants would be creeping around The Outlands (which would have had a different name) plotting and planning. I would definitely have increased the role of the Rilmani too, suggesting various roles for them (one would include being servants of The Lady).
Second, I would have intensified the truly "occult" feel of the planes and of the various Outsiders. While I commend what the designers could do with the direction TSR had gone after the 80's fundamentalist scare, I think that this is the one place PS lacked power. The planes were indeed places of wonder in PS; however, I never got the impression that pit fiends were terrifying, supernatural creatures that wanted to consume/corrupt the souls of all Creation. They were just another group of monsters and generals in armies.
Which is kinda wierd to me since what you found lacking in power was what I saw in abundance and made me fall in love with the setting. Specifically, Colin McComb's flavor text in 'Faces of Evil' and much of the flavor text in 'Hellbound' was downright harrowing in the depiction of the base evil of some of the fiends. Absolutely gorgeous...
I've tried to capture the same feel in my own campaign and my own writing, and I gather that you've tried to do the same with yours. Given that sort of confluence it's nearly wonky that we walked away with such difference perceptions of it all. :P
Wierdness I tell ya, wierdness.
5. A pet witchlight marauder for Shemeska.
IC:
"I demand one of those... whatever it is! As we all know, style in Sigil for the go-getting fiendess starts and ends with myself. And since whatever that thing is, it sounds trendy, I have to have one. So snap to it or there'll be blood on this carpet!"
OOC: Actually... what is that? Seriously, I don't remember what those are.
IC:
OOC: Actually... what is that? Seriously, I don't remember what those are.
Spelljammer monster. A bio-thaumaturgic war machine created by orcs. It had several "stages" - the biggest stayed in orbit, while smaller sendings attacked world-side Elvish forces. Quite terrifyingly powerful.
And I never understood why Limbo is Chaos personified when its usually described in literature as a featureless space more akin to the Astral plane.
I guess Gary Gygax ran out of names. It kinda works, though - Limbo is a place neither good nor evil, neither solid nor liquid nor gaseous, always between states.
Limbo's appearance comes directly from Milton's Paradise Lost, which had a realm of warring elements called simply Chaos. Apparantly that name was too obvious for Gygax's tastes.
Specifically, Colin McComb's flavor text in 'Faces of Evil' and much of the flavor text in 'Hellbound' was downright harrowing in the depiction of the base evil of some of the fiends.
Faces of Evil: The Fiends came closer than any other PS product in capturing the kind of atmosphere I prefer; however, even there, the material was too "natural." The anatomy and physiology of fiends and the idea of art and so on and so forth... All of these seem far too mundane and "mortal" in my mind.
Hellbound, although an interesting read, was -- again -- too mundane. The whole nature of the war and the attempt to draw parallels to mortal conflict and then just increase it to a "cosmic" scale didn't do anything in my mind.
I've tried to capture the same feel in my own campaign and my own writing, and I gather that you've tried to do the same with yours. Given that sort of confluence it's nearly wonky that we walked away with such difference perceptions of it all. :P
Wierdness I tell ya, wierdness.
Wierdness? Perhaps.
However, PS is still my favorite setting to date which is obvious considering what Dicefreaks is doing.Faces of Evil: The Fiends came closer than any other PS product in capturing the kind of atmosphere I prefer; however, even there, the material was too "natural." The anatomy and physiology of fiends and the idea of art and so on and so forth... All of these seem far too mundane and "mortal" in my mind.
Hellbound, although an interesting read, was -- again -- too mundane. The whole nature of the war and the attempt to draw parallels to mortal conflict and then just increase it to a "cosmic" scale didn't do anything in my mind.
Wierdness? Perhaps.
baatzu are made from mortal souls.end result a baatzu conflict is a mortal conflict.
baatzu are made from mortal souls.end result a baatzu conflict is a mortal conflict.
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm getting at is that the manner in which the material is written paints the war between demons and devils as paralleling mortal war with regards to techniques and strategy. Hell, they even die on the battle field.
I would have preferred something more alien in its description. For example, if a devil dies beyond Hell, the only way to almost permanently kill it is to devour it before its physical form melts away. To make matters more interesting, the devouring must be done quickly and to ensure that the devil isn't reborn later in Hell, the demon must deficate it back out as a manes or something. This is difficult to accomplish since, during most battles, neither side has a chance to completely humiliate its opponent as they must attend to other immediate threats to their current existance. Thus, this is one reason why the war continues since it's virtually impossible to permanently destroy outsiders beyond their plane of existence.
This would also show how mutable Outsiders can be. The goal is to create one monolithic kind of evil and this sort of behavior perfectly describes that wtihout ever saying it.
Then the suggestion that all balors are generals and all mariliths are tacticians and so forth. Gone. Some balors would be involved, others wouldn't care a wit. Same with mariliths. The whole idea of the molydeus would have been dumped too as the concept's far too logical and orderly (Lawful) to make sense in The Abyss.
What I'm getting at is that the concept of war among immortal creatures that is really just a metaphor for determining the ultimate course of Evil in the Cosmos needs to be far more... well, supernatural than described in Hellbound: The Blood War.
By saying "plane x has three layers, and they are all about a, b, and c, respectively" you're imposing limits on something that should not be limited. And although a, b, and even c, are interesting, well designed, and thought provoking, they do get old after a while. Abyss is practically the only plane that gives you the feeling that there's something more to it, but even there, the layers begin to look alike (which can't be helped, I guess).
That's why I would focus on the hintherlands (yeah, you remember, the infinite area where nothing ever happens and you're always next door to the gate towns?). Explorers would not be stuck with the dozen known planes, but would reach out, eventually discovering that The Great Ring is actually just a great ring, that there are other planes that can't be stuck into a mold the way these are, that there are actually non-clueless planars that have never heard of Sigil and the Lady of Pain.
Options. Escape hatches. That's what was missing in PS. After a while, it began to feel like a PC without a modem.
By saying "plane x has three layers, and they are all about a, b, and c, respectively" you're imposing limits on something that should not be limited.
Yeah, I'm sure there are many places in the infinite planes that resemble nothing in the boxed set. You could think of the Outer Planes, for example, as a field of gradiation in which every conceivable concept is battled over by the five cosmic forces of good, evil, chaos, balance, and law. Some things might not seem to fit, and might not look anything like the majority of the plane, but depending on which forces are dominant they're bound to end up in one plane or another, sliding into others as things change.
Yeah, I'm sure there are many places in the infinite planes that resemble nothing in the boxed set. Some things might not seem to fit, and might not look anything like the majority of the plane, but
Exactly. It's just that options for "things that don't fit" were not really there when Planescape came out. There was, and still is, a strong tendention to explain everything, fit everything, and do away with all the what-ifs.
It would've been more to my liking if the premise was "The Great Wheel setup is what is currently known. There's a lot of stuff out there that is yet to be explained and incorporrated into the 'grand unified theory of everything', a.k.a. Rule of Three." (For one thing, it would've made the 3E transition much easier) Instead, we got a bunch of factions that believe that they know how it all fits together (all falls apart). Which is, I say again, all good and interesting, but ultimately limiting.
Yes I am being overly critical, Planescape is actually much broader then most campaign setting I know, but it's not perfect. *sigh*