please share your experience with this module. Many people claim that "Out of the Darkness" is one of the best published adventures ever but say also that it contains some serious pitfalls, like the Wall of Force problem. What other problems are easily overlooked and what are your suggested solutions for them?
Thanx,
Sthelysh
I'm not terribly familiar with this module, but I do have an ungodly amount of experience dealing with walls of force. Could you elaborate on your question?
I think the problem Sthelysh is referring to occurs near the end of the module. The PCs are in a race against time (and Orcus) to reach an artifact before the demon lord shows up, takes it, kills the party, and potentially a good chunk of the multiverse as well. The problem is, said artifact is behind a wall of force. If the PCs have the means to deal with the wall, then they have a chance of stopping Orcus/Tenebrous; if not, then it's game over for them. Most people, I would imagine, don't like the idea that such an important encounter hinges on the ability to counter the effects of one particular spell. Another oddity of that encounter is the fact that the artifact can only be permenently destroyed (and not even then) if the PCs happened to pick up a nondescript headband found much, much earlier in the module.
Possible solutions - I forget if it's mentioned in the module, but does the wall extend all the way through the cavern? Could a druid walk through the stone and into the cavern?
I DMed the module for a couple sessions and really enjoyed it, although we didn't get a chance to get far into the story. One problem, ironically, might be the fact that the events of Dead Gods are so well known by now, showing up in Manual of the Planes, the Book of Vile Darkness (also by Monte Cook), and Faiths and Pantheons (FR godbook). 3E assumes that the PCs were successful in the adventure, but that Orcus came back to life anyway. It also helps if you incorporate the elements of Great Modron March into a campaign before you start DG, as the latter is at least a partial continuation of the story of TGMM.
1) cast a disintegrate spell on the barrier
2) get a devotee of Kiaransalee to touch the barrier in her name
3) inflict at least 50 points of damage upon the barrier by smashing it with bones
But the players have no means to obtain this information except by owning the mentioned headband. There is nothing mentioned about passing through the walls, but problem is, there is no single class spellcaster in the group. On the other hand, the only option given above that pleases me is number 2 because it makes sense context wise and adds flavor to the story, all other ways feel somewhat like cheating. Perhaps some other ideas how bringing down the barrier could be connected in some way to Kiaransalee?
However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings).
So option 1 is definitely not cheating. Have them make a spellcraft check to identify the spell and a knowledge (arcana) check to understand that disintegrate can destroy it. Then plant a disintegrate scroll somewhere in the game, say the wizard in the walking tower or an enemy NPC wizard.
Can they dim door or teleport? If so, then no problem.
Option 3 is out if they don't have the circlet band.
It's difficult to bring in Kiaransalee. But perhaps a really good diplomacy check can convince the drow vampire or the drow consort in the Vault that it is in the interest of Kiaransalee that Orcus do not get the wand, thus it has to be moved elsewhere.
The module was fun... I chronicled it in Act 7 of my 2E campaign here.
Of course, if you're in the infamous situation my rogue once found himself in, where the walls and floor are also protected by walls of force, and you haven't got access to dimension door or any other form of teleportation, then you might be in trouble.
I really like to continue to debate this point, so please post your opinion about my view of this certain aspect of the adventure (and don't forget like I stated earlier, there are no single class spellcaster in the party), but aside from that are there other voices about problemes with this module?
In short, the module needs a lot more clues, hints and backstory explanation than is provided. I actually read aloud some of the interludes (and made up others) to motivate my players.
The semi-ending (or pre-ending on Pandaemonium) is somewhat anti-climactic in my opinion, and I've changed that part quite a lot in anticipation.
I'll post more but I've got to run, busy at work.
I also really liked the mini-adventure that came with it, entitled Into the Light, in which the DM could modify and fit into his campaign as he saw fit, including the ending.
as I am thinking among the same lines here, anticlimactic ending and all - would you mind to elaborate exactly what you did with the ending? Was it something generic, or something specific to your PCs?
Thanks in advance
.please post your opinion about my view of this certain aspect of the adventure (and don't forget like I stated earlier, there are no single class spellcaster in the party)
In case I didn't make this clear before, even a low-level spellcaster can circumvent this wall of force by using Ethereal Jaunt or Dimension Door, unless the plane that the action takes place upon is not coterminous with the astral and/or ethereal planes. And, failing that, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, power attacking the floor and digging a hole under the wall of force to squirm through will *always* work, unless the floor is made out of adamantine or something equally ridiculous.
And, failing that, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, power attacking the floor and digging a hole under the wall of force to squirm through will *always* work, unless the floor is made out of adamantine or something equally ridiculous.
You let your players Power Attack the floor to dig through? What's the hardness/hp of a (stone) floor? What happens to the weapon used?
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects.
The story started out okay, with chapter one being a good lead into the overall story. I like to make little additions of my own to each storyline, so I had some old and new NPCs introduced along the way, one of which would start a love relation with the Paladin of the group. The only problem was actually getting them to Crux, for my party is quite the getgoers and don't just stop to enjoy the scenery.
Chapter two was fun as well, especially concerning the lost Modron. The first lead into the main story is made here, but it is extremely vague, and my PCs never found out what it was about, even though they did know something dark had passed through it.
Chapter Three was a total nightmare, for the PCs that is. For once, the encounters where far too strong, even for my PCs, mainly because the Visages have an immense power. The hallucinations they can conjure really mess up the world, and even though there was magical resistance and good saves, creative use of those illusions can mean the death of any party, even if they were 20th level. The DM has a lot of control as to how far he or she wants to go.
From chapter four, the story takes a bad turn. Everything remains far too vague, and the PCs have no insentive whatsoever to investigate. Perhaps if they had had clues about the seriousness of the matter, they might have, but thus far, they have to be led around by the nose just to get them where you want them to.
Chapter Five was good fun, even if the PCs had no idea what they were doing there. I used the drow-vampire to explain a damn lot more than he's supposed to, and clear up the storyline. I'd have done it before, but there really weren't any good NPCs to get that job done.
Chapter Six was the worst of the lot. Sending in a Paladin into a drow nest is just plain bad if you expect him to not fight. In fact, I found the whole chapter riddled with examples that good aligned players would not go along with. So, I rewrote the whole chapter, letting the PCs pop out of a portal way in the western part of the chapter and have them bash in a bunch of Mind Flayers that were building some sort of mind control tower. From there, the PCs read the mind of the drow, thus knowing where to head next.
While it was necessary, Chapter VII could have been done differently. The PCs finally got their story straight here, due to a lot of explaining and linking facts on my part. Perhaps an important warning is in place: do not extend this campaign over the period of a year and a half. Players will forget far too much, and will never bring facts together even if they do keep records.
By this time, I wanted to get the campaign done, and so I sped up things. They never met the Carnival in Pandemonium and instead went straight to the problemsite. Once there, they didn't have much trouble penetrating the Wall of Force because one of them was all too eager to conjure up a little storm that blasted skulls against it. Then, tragic as it was, one of the PCs lost his life to the wand, and Orcus was dead again. Kinda...
I never played chapter 10, thinking the story was quite done at that point and stretching it even longer would not make for a better experience. Instead, I started on my own storyline, concentrating more on the aspects and beliefs of the PCs instead of imposing a story on them. Today, that formula still works like a charm.
A final note though. Where Out of the Darkness was difficult for the DM, and frustrating for the PCs as they didn't have motivation or clues, Into the Light was great. We finished the story four years ago, and even now all the players laugh as someone falls under a compulsory spell and starts whispering Badir, badir, badir... :D
You let your players Power Attack the floor to dig through? What's the hardness/hp of a (stone) floor? What happens to the weapon used?
The hardness/hp of a stone floor is definitely lower than that of a steel sword. If the sword's enchanted, it usually won't even get any nicks from doing so, either, especially if it's a huge greatsword.
Also, as to your quote about ineffective weapon types, the example they give directly after that, which you have omitted, is of someone trying to cut a rope with a hammer.
The hardness/hp of a stone floor is definitely lower than that of a steel sword. If the sword's enchanted, it usually won't even get any nicks from doing so, either, especially if it's a huge greatsword.
Yes, in game terms.
Also, as to your quote about ineffective weapon types, the example they give directly after that, which you have omitted, is of someone trying to cut a rope with a hammer.
Have you ever tried to swing a sword (especially a greatsword) in such a way as to cut stone though? It's horribly ineffective, and even a magical sword would take more time than you'd have (I assume, anyway- unless you use a lot of haste spells maybe) It's a lot like trying to chop a tree down with a sword- The edge isn't right for it. I'm sure someone who knows a lot about physics could explain it better, but I can tell you that it would be a lot like trying to cut a rope with a hammer.
And realistically, Steel is harder than iron or stone- but its also more brittle. Trying to use a sword this way would shatter the sword. Maybe not a magic sword, but still... that's not very heroic... Hacking at the dungeon wall in a desperate attempt to escape ;)
Yes, in game terms.
Well, isn't that what matters?
Have you ever tried to swing a sword (especially a greatsword) in such a way as to cut stone though? It's horribly ineffective, and even a magical sword would take more time than you'd have (I assume, anyway- unless you use a lot of haste spells maybe) It's a lot like trying to chop a tree down with a sword- The edge isn't right for it. I'm sure someone who knows a lot about physics could explain it better, but I can tell you that it would be a lot like trying to cut a rope with a hammer.
I imagine I wouldn't have much success attempting to cast fireball spells either, but magical swords can deal enough damage, by the rules laid out in the DMG, to cut through a foot or two of stone in just a few rounds with hefty Power Attack values.
And realistically, Steel is harder than iron or stone- but its also more brittle. Trying to use a sword this way would shatter the sword. Maybe not a magic sword, but still... that's not very heroic... Hacking at the dungeon wall in a desperate attempt to escape ;)
First of all, magic swords make a point of being stronger, sharper, and just all-around superior to nonmagic swords. Secondly, no one's "hacking in a desperate attempt to escape", they are attempting to get past an obstacle to stop an evil god from destroying untold billions of lives.
Now you can bust out the mining pick and get around the wall of force without dinging up your sword.
I do agree, however, that ye olde adamantite mining pick would be the better tool for the job. But really, how many people carry one around...?
Well, isn't that what matters?
It's the same thing as cutting a rope with a hammer. You can, under the rules, do it. But if your DM has a lick of sense, and even a basic understanding of medieval weapons, he won't allow it.
Secondly, no one's "hacking in a desperate attempt to escape", they are attempting to get past an obstacle to stop an evil god from destroying untold billions of lives.
I know. I was joking. I meant that just because you could use a sword to chop down the wall according to the rules, doesn't mean you should do it. It was an example of something you could in theory do, but which isn't practical.
Visage (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil, Tanar’ri, Undead) ;CR 12; Size M (5 ft. x 5 ft., 5 ft. reach); HD 10d12+3; hp 68; Init +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative); Spd Fly 40 ft.(good); AC 25 (+3 Dex, +12 natural); Base Attack/Grapple +10/+14; Attack +14 melee(2 claws); Damage 1d6+4 melee(claw); SA Lucidity control, Spell-like abilities; SQ DR 10/good, Darkvision 60 ft., SR 23, Holy water immunity, Tanar’ri traits(immune to electricity and poison, acid, cold and fire resistances 10, Telepathy 100 ft.), Undead traits; SV Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +11; AL CE; Str 19, Dex 16, Con -, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 21.
Skills and feats: Bluff +31*, Concentration +13, Diplomacy +20, Disguise +31*, Hide +16, Intimidate +20, Knowledge(the planes) +17, Knowledge(abyss) +17, Move Silently +17, Search +17, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +19; Improved Initiative, Toughness, Skill Focus(Bluff), Skill Focus (Disguise)
Lucidity control(Su): As a standard action, the Visage can alter the perceptions of all the creatures in a 40-ft. radius area as per the effect of a Veil spell, a Hallucinatory Terrain and a Suggestion spell combined. To see through the illusion, the target must specifically ask for a disbelief check (Will save DC 20), or understand that something is unusual with a Wisdom check DC 20 and then make an automatic disbelief check. The Wisdom check occurs every minute. This is a mind-affecting supernatural ability, and requires the user to maintain concentration.
Spell-like abilities(Sp): 3/day Domination (DC 20). Caster Level 10th.
Steal Essence(Su): The Visage can steal the essence of a creature he kills. He assumes the victim’s form (gaining a +10 Disguise check) and skills and feats. The Visage can remain in this state indefinably, and can use his own Supernatural and Spell-like abilities. While the visage takes the form of a victim, it cannot be raised or resurrected. If the visage keeps the victim’s essence for a day or more, the victim’s soul is forever gone (it cannot be raised or resurrected and it cannot become a petitioner).
Undead qualities
Skills: Visages gain a +8 racial bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks.
.....
P.S. I gave it 10 HD to make it be a challenge for five 14th level PCs, in origin it should have less.
Good conversion though.
Besides, i must warn my players not to read that book
It's the same thing as cutting a rope with a hammer. You can, under the rules, do it. But if your DM has a lick of sense, and even a basic understanding of medieval weapons, he won't allow it. I meant that just because you could use a sword to chop down the wall according to the rules, doesn't mean you should do it. It was an example of something you could in theory do, but which isn't practical.
I fear we will have to agree to disagree on this point - while a sword obviously isn't by any stretch of the imagination an optimal tool for cutting stone, it is a functional one, much the same way that a pickaxe is not an optimal tool for cutting a rope. You can do it, but it certainly isn't easy. Cutting a rope with a hammer or trying to cut stone with a whip, on the other hand, is an obvious example of an ineffective damage source. Furthermore, there are plenty of movies/books/anime which show characters cutting stone with great ease using swords (usually magical ones). Orson the Berserker from Record of Lodoss War is an excellent example. While I'm sure you are convinced that your view is the more feasible of the two, I have a hard time believing that a player whose weapon was capable of dealing damage to a creature with hardness-based damage reduction 15 and a natural armor bonus of +20 or greater, which is a great deal more solid than a stone block, would be unable to cut stone.
*edit* removed personal attack. I apologize for my outburst of temper.