Kam asked me to start this threat, because I had some questions that didn't fit into the errata threat.
I'll start with my concerns and questions that I've allready asked and optionally I'll add the answer I allready got from Kam.
My first concern was about the conversion of the Kank, as IMO Kanks are anatomical equal, but they use (develop) their ablities (producing globes, posion, or laying eggs) depending on their duty they have within their hive and that they could easely change, for example from a "worker" to "soldier". This seems to be quite difficult, so I dropped this, but I still didn't see the "worker" fit, as it was unusable as amount (medium-sized, STR 12). Kam's suggestion for me was to use the "soldier"-stats (without the poison ability) for the "worker", and that's the way I'll go.
My second concern is about the Silt Runner. I'm not quite pleased about the conversion of the speed. The 2nd ed. Silt Runner was 4 times faster than a human, now it is equal fast than a human.
Bengeldorn wrote:
I agree though that we should probably up the speed to at least 40 and leave the silt runner ability as is.
I hope it is ok that I took parts of the PMs in here, if not I'm sorry and will edit it.
That's fine, Bengeldorn- it saves me from repeating myself
. It's normal for things to get discussed on the mailing list and a compromise to be reached and it's great that you're interested enough to get a discussion going. You have a good point where the silt runner speed is concerned, imho.Improved Carrying Capacity: An inix is treated one size category larger for determining its Carrying Capacity.
A huge inix with a strength score of 19 would have a light load up to 696 lb. a medium load 697 lb.—1398 lb., and a heavy load 1399 lb.—2100 lb..
Than I looked at the 2nd ed. description, and I saw that it was a huge creature not a large one (as it is now in ToA).
Now I wonder why its size had been changed?
Than I looked at the 2nd ed. description, and I saw that it was a huge creature not a large one (as it is now in ToA).
Now I wonder why its size had been changed?
Same argument with the stats I've been having with Mr. Spatula.
Size is another thing that does not convert well from 2e to 3e.
The flavor described the inix as a large critter when converting it to 3e, even though it's given huge stats in 2e, so I went with what the flavor text described in most instances unless there was a good reason not to.
Same argument with the stats I've been having with Mr. Spatula.
Size is another thing that does not convert well from 2e to 3e.
The flavor described the inix as a large critter when converting it to 3e, even though it's given huge stats in 2e, so I went with what the flavor text described in most instances unless there was a good reason not to.
But the even the text says it is up to 16 ft. long. Looking at PHB Table 8—4: Crature Size and Scale, a creature with a space of 15 ft. would be Huge not Large....and reading the descripition myself, I see nothing that would argue that the inix could be large except "An inix is a large lizard..."....that's not enough to justify this change....IMO there are more reasons to make an inix Huge than to make it Large (actually I see no reason why to make it Large)...
But the even the text says it is up to 16 ft. long. Looking at PHB Table 8—4: Crature Size and Scale, a creature with a space of 15 ft. would be Huge not Large....
You're absolutely right.
Looks like we missed an edit sweep, something we will hit next time. Though it would be large in 3.0.
I forgot about the whole face determining size now, instead of the other way around, in 3.5.
Good catch, and thanks xlorep for looking that up for me since I am without books and the SRD wasn't much help!
Guess I was not around during the Silt Runner debate, because I don't remember it.
I agree though that we should probably up the speed to at least 40 and leave the silt runner ability as is.
I was thinking of :
- base land speed 60 ft.
- keeping the silt runner ability
- adding Run as racial bonus feat.
or
- base land speed 120 ft.
- dropping the silt runner feat
or
- base land speed 30 ft.
- dropping the silt runner ability
- adding an ability that allows to run as move action without a limitation by constitution (=>can allways run)
You're absolutely right.
Looks like we missed an edit sweep, something we will hit next time. Though it would be large in 3.0.
I forgot about the whole face determining size now, instead of the other way around, in 3.5.
Good catch, and thanks xlorep for looking that up for me since I am without books and the SRD wasn't much help!
There is no face in 3.5, it's "Space" now and, afaik, Space does not determine Size, it is determined by Size. MM3.5 (p314) has dimensions of 8ft-16ft being Large and 16ft-32ft being Huge. Clearly, according to this table, Space is not intended as the determining factor for Size, otherwise you would not be able to have Large creatures that were 11 to 16 feet in dimensions - which the table shows that you are. A 15-foot long creature is Large and has a Space of 10ft. Space is a general measure of the amount of room a creature needs in order to be able to fight effectively; it is not a strict measure of size.
So, with the inix being "up to" 16 feet in length and "roughly" 2 tonnes, I would say that it falls into the upper end of Large. You could also rule that it lies at the bottom end of Huge, and I would support this as a perfectly viable approach, given its borderline measurements. But this is due to its dimensions alone and has nothing at all to do with its perceived Space/Reach.
Nyt, don't sweat it - you were pretty damn close to the mark with the inix, imho
.There is no face in 3.5, it's "Space" now and, afaik, Space does not determine Size, it is determined by Size. MM3.5 (p314) has dimensions of 8ft-16ft being Large and 16ft-32ft being Huge. Clearly, according to this table, Space is not intended as the determining factor for Size, otherwise you would not be able to have Large creatures that were 11 to 16 feet in dimensions - which the table shows that you are. A 15-foot long creature is Large and has a Space of 10ft. Space is a general measure of the amount of room a creature needs in order to be able to fight effectively; it is not a strict measure of size.
So, with the inix being "up to" 16 feet in length and "roughly" 2 tonnes, I would say that it falls into the upper end of Large. You could also rule that it lies at the bottom end of Huge, and I would support this as a perfectly viable approach, given its borderline measurements. But this is due to its dimensions alone and has nothing at all to do with its perceived Space/Reach.
Nyt, don't sweat it - you were pretty damn close to the mark with the inix, imho
You're right I didn't see this table, but according to this table the Mekilliot would be Huge not Gargantuan...
.....a 30 ft. creature fits into a 15 ft square??? ...strange rule IMO.... .However, I don't remember written references for this in the rules, only drawings.
And I'm perfectly aware that art isn't a definitive argument, but still a huge Inix feels better to me than a large one.
I think there may be supporting evidence to the Inix being Huge in the Crimson Legion, when the Tyrian army is marching out of the city...
Will check tonight.
There is no face in 3.5, it's "Space" now and, afaik, Space does not determine Size, it is determined by Size. MM3.5 (p314) has dimensions of 8ft-16ft being Large and 16ft-32ft being Huge. Clearly, according to this table, Space is not intended as the determining factor for Size, otherwise you would not be able to have Large creatures that were 11 to 16 feet in dimensions - which the table shows that you are. A 15-foot long creature is Large and has a Space of 10ft. Space is a general measure of the amount of room a creature needs in order to be able to fight effectively; it is not a strict measure of size.
So, with the inix being "up to" 16 feet in length and "roughly" 2 tonnes, I would say that it falls into the upper end of Large. You could also rule that it lies at the bottom end of Huge, and I would support this as a perfectly viable approach, given its borderline measurements. But this is due to its dimensions alone and has nothing at all to do with its perceived Space/Reach.
Nyt, don't sweat it - you were pretty damn close to the mark with the inix, imho
Now you see, I knew there was that table, but I couldn't find it.
There is no face in 3.5, it's "Space" now and, afaik, Space does not determine Size, it is determined by Size.
My bad, I meant space.
MM3.5 (p314) has dimensions of 8ft-16ft being Large and 16ft-32ft being Huge. Clearly, according to this table, Space is not intended as the determining factor for Size, otherwise you would not be able to have Large creatures that were 11 to 16 feet in dimensions - which the table shows that you are. A 15-foot long creature is Large and has a Space of 10ft. Space is a general measure of the amount of room a creature needs in order to be able to fight effectively; it is not a strict measure of size.
See what happens when you don't have your books?
Thanks Kam. I thought I was right on that but didn't want to put my foot in my mouth without my books to confirm.
So, with the inix being "up to" 16 feet in length and "roughly" 2 tons, I would say that it falls into the upper end of Large. You could also rule that it lies at the bottom end of Huge, and I would support this as a perfectly viable approach, given its borderline measurements. But this is due to its dimensions alone and has nothing at all to do with its perceived Space/Reach.
I agree more with the former, it's not heavy enough, if I recall, to be Huge, the sole reason I knocked it down to Large. Weight and size both have to match the requirements for said size category.
Nyt, don't sweat it - you were pretty damn close to the mark with the inix, imho
That's what I thought to, but don't mind admitting I'm wrong if proven so, in this case I was just disarmed and automatically I assumed I was.
You're right I didn't see this table, but according to this table the Mekilliot would be Huge not Gargantuan...
Aye, I must have not eyeballed that one right.
Good catch.
Note that it's indeed a square, i.e. the space it takes up is squared.
So using basic math, 15 ft. x 15 ft. = a 225 ft. area, more than enough to house a 30ft. creature IMO.
It's confusing, but it works.
Aye, I must have not eyeballed that one right.
Good catch.
Note that it's indeed a square, i.e. the space it takes up is squared.
So using basic math, 15 ft. x 15 ft. = a 225 ft. area, more than enough to house a 30ft. creature IMO.
It's confusing, but it works.
I don't follow that at all. If we have a 15 ft square (15 ft x 15 ft) then the longest thing that can fit in that is along the diagonal which is about 21 ft = (15 *sqrt(2)). Something 30 ft long can't possibly fit in that unless it's flexible and coiled up.
This may not be the best argument, but an Inix is capable of carrying a howdah, an activity better suited for an elephant-sized creature than for a horse-sized one.
That's why it has an improved carrying capacity (due to it being multi-legged), it can carry more than a normal Large creature can.
That's why it has an improved carrying capacity (due to it being multi-legged), it can carry more than a normal Large creature can.
That certainly takes care of the weight part of the problem.
I have difficulty imagining a horse-sized creature with a box strapped to it's back big enough to provide cover to it's 4 passengers.
But I guess it could be the Advanced Inix (which is huge) that could carry the howdah...
That certainly takes care of the weight part of the problem.
I have difficulty imagining a horse-sized creature with a box strapped to it's back big enough to provide cover to it's 4 passengers.
But I guess it could be the Advanced Inix (which is huge) that could carry the howdah...
Well, do understand that the inix is at the upper end of the large size category. A horse generally is a bit lower in that category.
And agreed on the silt runner. Should be a speedy little critter. Spd 40 at least, maybe even 45. Though I realize the implications of feats such as Shot on the Run and Spring Attack.
Well, do understand that the inix is at the upper end of the large size category. A horse generally is a bit lower in that category.
I see the inix as the counterpart to the elephant, but it's even larger (in the length).
An elephant is huge, so should be the inix.
What about changing the size in description of the inix from 16 ft. to 17 ft.?
Would be huge than, and no need for the Improved Carrying Capacity ability.
I see the inix as the counterpart to the elephant, but it's even larger (in the length).
An elephant is huge, so should be the inix.
The mekillot makes much more sense to me to be the elephant equivalent, not the inix.
The inix is more of a horse on steroids.
Besides, just advance it one step and now it's Huge, not a big deal at all.
Pretty sure there are plenty of Huge inix running around out there too, it's not like they will be rare or anything.
Gotta love the advancement rules. ;)
The mekillot makes much more sense to me to be the elephant equivalent, not the inix.
Have you ever seen an elephant that would possibly be capable of swallowing a whole human?The inix is more of a horse on steroids.
Right, there have been plenty of horses having a weight of 2 tons and carrying howdahs on their backs....Besides, just advance it one step and now it's Huge, not a big deal at all.
Advancement is fine, but how do you advance the Improved Carrying Capacity ability? Keeping it as it is doesn't make any sense IMO.
Pretty sure there are plenty of Huge inix running around out there too, it's not like they will be rare or anything.
Change "huge" to "large" in your sentence and you're right.
Gotta love the advancement rules. ;)
See above!
Looking at all the artwork, that has been made about inix and mekilllots inix seem to be Huge and mekillots Gargantuan. Looking at the way they are used on athas inix seem to be Huge and mekillots Gargantuan. Looking at the mechanics (Carrying Capacity) inix seem to be Huge and mekillots Gargantuan. Looking at the description, inix seem to be Large and mekillits Huge.
Now, this makes 3:1 for inix being Huge and mekillot Gargantuan.
I've seen many elephants and even ridden one. We're not talking about it's swallowing capabilities, we are talking about it's carry capacity capabilities.
Apples and oranges.
Note the word "steroids" added to my sentence; :rollseyes:
Advancement is fine, but how do you advance the Improved Carrying Capacity ability? Keeping it as it is doesn't make any sense IMO.
Probably needs to be reworded from what I can tell. Give me a few to look at it, calls have picked up for some reason.
Looking at all the artwork, that has been made about inix and mekilllots inix seem to be Huge and mekillots Gargantuan. Looking at the way they are used on athas inix seem to be Huge and mekillots Gargantuan. Looking at the mechanics (Carrying Capacity) inix seem to be Huge and mekillots Gargantuan. Looking at the description, inix seem to be Large and mekillits Huge.
Now, this makes 3:1 for inix being Huge and mekillot Gargantuan.
All of which is based on 2e mechanics, mechanics that have been changed and are no longer valid.
Stop using that as an argument. ;)
Advancement is fine, but how do you advance the Improved Carrying Capacity ability? Keeping it as it is doesn't make any sense IMO.
Ok, the Improved Carrying Capacity probably needs to be re-written, since (a) it's confusing, and (b) took me awhile to figure out what Str score it is based on.
The closest Str score it's based on is 33, it's actually in between 33 and 34.
So we probably need to rewrite that and assign a Str score it's equal to and have that change with the advancement rules as well, since it should go up with advancement (as long as the advancement warrants a Str increase anyways).
Making it just Huge won't solve anything either because we will still have to define the increased carrying capacity, which I think it needs.
Plus the advancement rules work here as well, and I'm not sure what the big deal is with using them.
How do the advencment rules work for Improved Carrying Capacity (from now on I'll call it ICC)?
Changing the size, affects the Carrying Capacity of a creature, keeping the ICC ability as it is, there would be no difference for an inix being Large or Huge. The inix is basicly used as a mount. So advancing it by size while keeping the carrying capacity is useless, IMO. The ability needs a change but changing it the way I gave above (this way an advancement is possible) a huge inix would be able to carry double the weight it it normally could. This would be a kind of compromise I'm reluctantly willing to take.
As Kam said, it is the borderline, and as this the easiest and (IMO) best way is to change it into huge creature with dropping the ICC ability. Also the most impressions i got through artwork and descriptions (with that I mean the descriptions an inix is used for) makes it much bigger than (for example) a kank and at least as big as an elephant.
The ICC is a nice try but it's definetly not a good mechanic, because it keeps an numeric restriction for a mechanic that is based on size (and strength). This ability reduces the benefits of an advancement (by size) and that's (IMO) a proof for a bad designed mechanic (that is not meant to be offending, just my POV).
Coming to the mekillot, although it seems to me being a size class bigger than the inix, I've no problem with making it huge, but the comparing a mekillot with an elephant is like comparing a pick-up truck with a semi-trailer truck.
The ICC is a nice try but it's definetly not a good mechanic, because it keeps an numeric restriction for a mechanic that is based on size (and strength). This ability reduces the benefits of an advancement (by size) and that's (IMO) a proof for a bad designed mechanic (that is not meant to be offending, just my POV).
I agree that ICC is a bad mechanic as written, that is why it's going to be re-written. It needs to scale with the Str gained from advancement, when there is a Str increase.
I agree that ICC is a bad mechanic as written, that is why it's going to be re-written. It needs to scale with the Str gained from advancement, when there is a Str increase.
Yeah, agreed. It needs to be explicitly stated in the ICC section that it scales with Str. The numbers can be retained as examples, but the formula should be clear (and not just referenced in the fluff).
Assuming it stays at Large with ICC, what are general opinions on this? Make ICC give double normal capacity for the creature's Str? (This is what it is at the moment). Or make ICC give the creature the carrying capacity of one size larger (so a Large inix carries as a Huge one)? Another mechanic?
Assuming it stays at Large with ICC, what are general opinions on this? Make ICC give double normal capacity for the creature's Str?
So carrying capacity of something that has a Str of 28? That's not what I came up with when I was playing with the numbers.
(This is what it is at the moment). Or make ICC give the creature the carrying capacity of one size larger (so a Large inix carries as a Huge one)? Another mechanic?
I'd say go this way, less confusing, less number playing, and it might make some of the Huge fanatics happy.
:D
I'd say go this way, less confusing, less number playing, and it might make some of the Huge fanatics happy.
:D
No it doesn't. :P
The problem is, if you advance an inix to Huge its carrying capacity would be:
Light Load: 3672 lb.
Medium Load: 7356 lb.
Heavy Load: 11040 lb.
Drag: 55200 lb.
IMO, it's too much for any inix (regardless of its size).
So carrying capacity of something that has a Str of 28? That's not what I came up with when I was playing with the numbers.
No, it works like this:
A Large inix with Str 19 would normally have carrying capacities of 348/699/1050. With the "double your capacity" variant, you just double these figures - hence the ToA entries of 699/1399/2100 (actually, it's 696/1398/2100, but those first two figures are a bit messy so they got rounded off).
No, it works like this:
A Large inix with Str 19 would normally have carrying capacities of 348/699/1050. With the "double your capacity" variant, you just double these figures - hence the ToA entries of 699/1399/2100 (actually, it's 696/1398/2100, but those first two figures are a bit messy so they got rounded off).
That is increasing by size. ;)
No cows, no horses, etc. He admitted that this broke down as things went along. Errors crept in and editors missed things. Like Hamanu taking on the visage of a "lion" for instance. That was a literary choice to get readers get a certain idea. But there were not supposed to be any lions in Athas, now or then.
I just saw the addition of an athasian bear in ToA, even though we already have the klar.
Why not have an athasian lion, using the same guidelines used to create the athasian bear?
A suggestion for the Monster Bureau...
That is increasing by size. ;)
Coincidentally, yes, it is
. I selected ICC as double capacity, which happens to be the same multiplier for the next size category at this point (although it is not the same for some of the smaller categories, which is the only reason I am making the pedantic distinction, heh heh). All a bit academic at the moment ;).No, it works like this:
A Large inix with Str 19 would normally have carrying capacities of 348/699/1050. With the "double your capacity" variant, you just double these figures - hence the ToA entries of 699/1399/2100 (actually, it's 696/1398/2100, but those first two figures are a bit messy so they got rounded off).
Ah ok, was trying to figure out how you came up with those numbers.
That works though, just re-write it to say it doubles the capacity and then give that as an example and it should be clear.
Why not have an athasian lion, using the same guidelines used to create the athasian bear?
I'm not against it, would just like to know where the Athasian bear came from, esp since it almost damn near mimics the klar.
I'm not against it, would just like to know where the Athasian bear came from, esp since it almost damn near mimics the klar.
A bear appears in the Prism Pentad (Obsidian Oracle, iirc), but I did wonder if the Klar from DS MC2 was supposed to represent the bear that features in the novel (at present we have them as offshoots of the same species in ToA). Still, the ToA approach was "assimilate everything" so both wound up in there, heh heh. Just remember to keep them separated and away from the kank honey :D.
The Elephant was in 2nd edition about 11 ft. tall and was a Large creature. Now in third it is as Huge creature (without a size description).
What am I about to say with this? Well, WotC seems to adjust the elephant's size to they way the creature would fit better (NOTE: this is just my opinion, I do not realy now why the elephant is at it is now). Why can't the monster bureau go the same way? A huge Inix would not need to have an ability to adjust its carring capacity (CC), it would work better with the mechanics, and it would just need (IMO it even doesn't need) a tiny change in the description (13 ft instead of 12 ft.....it's just one feet, I don't think one feet would change much of its flavour)
The same way I see it with the mekillot, although this one would need to get an adjustment of at least 2 ft. (make it 3 ft. to be on the safer side) in its size description, but IMO 2 or 3 feet more by a creature that allready has a size of 30 ft., doesn't effect much of the fluff the creature has, but it does make the mechanics work.
The reason, why I am so stubborn with the inix's and the mekillot's size is that these creatures are beasts of burden and the most important use is their CC. Therefore it should be designed, so that this mechanic could work. Creating an ability to improve their CC, is good try but IMO (I'm about to say "obviously", but it's obviously not obvious ;)) not the best one. Changing the size description isn't a big lost of flavour by creatures that are already that big.
Btw. I just want to remember that athas.org has allready changed a creature's size: the Thri-kreen. A Thri-kreen was at least 10 ft. long and that would make it Large not Medium as it is now in DS3.
Bigger-mounts-wanting Bengeldorn! ;)
This discussion seems to have raised enough interest to warrant some stats. What follows is not a Large inix from ToA, advanced to Huge. It is instead a redesign of the inix, with Huge as the starting size. Otherwise, the basic ToA model of the inix was kept, but Strength was raised to 24, to bring it within the minimum recommended range for Huge creatures (MM p314). Bite and tail slap damage have also been bumped by one category, for the same reason. The advancement range was kept to Huge as 35-feet long inixes seemed to be pushing it a bit. The carrying capacity allows the Huge inix to carry a half-giant plus gear as a medium load, for example, or two plus gear as a heavy load. Although higher, these numbers work fine for me as they don't tread on the mekillot in any great way (even if you downsize the mekillot to Huge and scale its Str back to 33, it still has CC of 12,000/24,000/36,000/drag 180,000).
Inix
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+19
Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d6+11) or tail slap +9 melee (1d6+11)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d6+11) or tail slap +9 melee (1d6+11)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Environment: Deserts
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: –
Carrying Capacity: A light load for an inix is up to 1,399 pounds; a medium load, 1,400-2,799 pounds; a heavy load, 2,800-4,200 pounds. An inix can drag 21,000 pounds.
It is instead a redesign of the inix, with Huge as the starting size. Otherwise, the basic ToA model of the inix was kept, but Strength was raised to 24, to bring it within the minimum recommended range for Huge creatures (MM p314).
Actually, I think this is more a guideline, as the MM itself isn't straight with this one.
Take a closer look at the Seven-Headed Hydra (p.156) and you see what I mean.
The rest seems ok.
A bear appears in the Prism Pentad (Obsidian Oracle, iirc), but I did wonder if the Klar from DS MC2 was supposed to represent the bear that features in the novel
Not sure about whether the klar's stats were meant to model the Prism Pentad bear, but klars are mentioned (not statted) in the Wanderer's Journal from the first box set (and the Wanderer refers to them as "psionic bears" or somesuch, so presumably there are bears on Athas - either that or it was a slip on the author's part).
I'm curious about the "no lions" thing. There's plenty of talk of lion-headed creatures in City by the Silt Sea as well.
I'm curious about the "no lions" thing. There's plenty of talk of lion-headed creatures in City by the Silt Sea as well.
True. That was the Lion-headed giant who ruled Giustenal before Dregoth came in and took over. They even made a shring for him, since they treated him as a god, in which a Slave Tribe currently lives.
I'm curious about the "no lions" thing. There's plenty of talk of lion-headed creatures in City by the Silt Sea as well.
CbtSS is one of the newest published DS book. The "no lions" thing is from Troy Denning and maybe even Tim Brown, from the very first brainstormings before the First Boxed Set. When Troy was put aside from DS and other designers brought in, every detail of Troy's universe he set down was not always respected, or may not have been communicated to the new team.
At least they didn't add horses later on...
Initially there were no lions on Athas, but when others added them to the Setting, then Hamanu became the Lion if Urik.
Why exactly did Troy become disengaged from the development process? Was he writing other books a the time?
Because TSR was doing that with everything.
A bear appears in the Prism Pentad (Obsidian Oracle, iirc), but I did wonder if the Klar from DS MC2 was supposed to represent the bear that features in the novel (at present we have them as offshoots of the same species in ToA). Still, the ToA approach was "assimilate everything" so both wound up in there, heh heh. Just remember to keep them separated and away from the kank honey :D.
Yeah, it's almost the same beast.
Maybe we should change the bear some, get rid of the carapace hide or something and lower their NA some.
Can ponder that when we hit ToA again, hopefully for the last time.
A huge Inix would not need to have an ability to adjust its carring capacity (CC), it would work better with the mechanics, and it would just need (IMO it even doesn't need) a tiny change in the description (13 ft instead of 12 ft.....it's just one feet, I don't think one feet would change much of its flavour)
The same way I see it with the mekillot, although this one would need to get an adjustment of at least 2 ft. (make it 3 ft. to be on the safer side) in its size description, but IMO 2 or 3 feet more by a creature that allready has a size of 30 ft., doesn't effect much of the fluff the creature has, but it does make the mechanics work.
Inix, no matter what we make it, will need the improved carrying capacity mechanic IMO. Kam is the one that added it, but I was wanting them to be able to carry more than their size warranted (no matter what it was). So good job to Kam for reading my mind.
The mekillot will probably be adjusted if I'm not mistaken, inix is fine where it's at though.
I can still see one of the antennas twitching. See?
This discussion seems to have raised enough interest to warrant some stats. What follows is not a Large inix from ToA, advanced to Huge. It is instead a redesign of the inix, with Huge as the starting size. Otherwise, the basic ToA model of the inix was kept, but Strength was raised to 24, to bring it within the minimum recommended range for Huge creatures (MM p314). Bite and tail slap damage have also been bumped by one category, for the same reason. The advancement range was kept to Huge as 35-feet long inixes seemed to be pushing it a bit. The carrying capacity allows the Huge inix to carry a half-giant plus gear as a medium load, for example, or two plus gear as a heavy load. Although higher, these numbers work fine for me as they don't tread on the mekillot in any great way (even if you downsize the mekillot to Huge and scale its Str back to 33, it still has CC of 12,000/24,000/36,000/drag 180,000).
Inix
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+19
Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d6+11) or tail slap +9 melee (1d6+11)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d6+11) or tail slap +9 melee (1d6+11)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Environment: Deserts
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: –
Carrying Capacity: A light load for an inix is up to 1,399 pounds; a medium load, 1,400-2,799 pounds; a heavy load, 2,800-4,200 pounds. An inix can drag 21,000 pounds.
I thought someone should thank you for modifying the Inix to fit the way some of us malcontents envisioned it.
Thank you and great job...
(Imagining my howdah-bearing inix, with a psion driver, two long-spearmen, two bowmen, a templar and a defiler charging my hapless players...)
It's certainly too late to change this but I share an experience of gaming.
I've recently lead a small adventure and one of my player rolled a dwarf. I've noticed that dwarves had lost a lot if we compare their regular version with their athas.org version. I mean in particular in comparison with elves. I thought that ToA would fix these problems... but not really.
I understand a lot of choices: stonecunning ability, bonuses against goblinoids, dodge bonus against giants, bonuses related to stone and metal. No problem, these abilities have nothing to do with athasian dwarves.
But why Stability? And I find the actual Weapon Familiarity poor. Urgrosh isn't good weapon (take a waraxe and a short sword and you have almost the same effect) Why not design the carrikal as a dwaren waraxe? It would be really interesting for dwarves. Maybe I rule the Focus ability too restrictive (only in very rare opportunities)
As a note, elves gain +10 base land speed, Weapon familiarity with Elven Longblade (that's very good), gain +2 racial bonus in Perform (ok...), have a heat/cold resistance and the elf run ability. Where is the balance?
As an errata, in ToA, under "Dwarf base land speed", it would be better to specify "However, dwarves can move this speed even wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations)." ;) Thanks!
Anyway, great job guys!!! and try to explain me what I haven't understood!
As for lions, I believe Lynn Abbey goes into this a bit more in Rise and Fall, or at least hints about it. I think the characters have seen pictures of their king as a lion, but haven't seen an actual lion, ever. In the jungle, they come across a horned lion that resembles Hamanu's favored animal. It seems like the author is saying normal lions are extinct (or maybe just rare), and what we have now is Athasian lions, which have horns and (I think) multiple legs. This description was so close to the kirre that I figured Lynn Abbey had that beast in mind, so there was no need to create an Athasian lion for ToA.
Racial Hit Dice: A magera begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
How does this work?
"Sligs have darkvision 60 feet."
There is no entry neither in the stats block nor in the racial traits.
Do they or don't they have darkvision?
On page 139 the stats block of the Tari, it has darkvision 60ft., page 140 racial traits, darkvision 120ft..
Which is right?
Thank you for the quick answer, but I have another darkvision-realted question.
On page 139 the stats block of the Tari, it has darkvision 60ft., page 140 racial traits, darkvision 120ft..
Which is right?
In earlier versions of ToA, the tari had 120' darkvision. With version 1.5, this was changed to 60' but the racial traits still has the old value. Change the racial traits section to read "Tari can see in the dark up to 60 feet".
Knowledge(Local): (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
The hunting cactus is not native to Athas and possesses an alien intelligence that does not recognize non-plant creatures as being capable of sentience.
[...]
Although communication with hunting cacti is possible, they invariably interpret all communication as having come from another plant as “meat-creatures” are not deemed capable of sentient thought beyond that required to eat, move and procreate.
My question:
WHY would a Hunting Cactus spend 8 Skill Points in Knowledge(Local)???? (to get that Knowledge(Local) +10)
Or may don its cape and prance around the desert thinking: "I am Doomspike! Fear me and my dwelf minions!"
Thanks. This is the answer I wanted to give... :P
To gain better knowledge of its hunting grounds. The hunting cactus thinks of this kind of knowledge as understanding the habits and habitats of the herds of meat upon which it preys. For example, a hunting cactus living near Silver Spring may know that a large herd of meat-creatures infests a nearby oasis and that the leader of this herd can kill plants using innate powers (the finer details that this is the defiler Toramund leading a tribe of elves would be of little interest to the cactus). Or the cactus may know that a single, exceptionally long-lived meat-creature once ruled over an entire hive of its fellows in a valley across the desert to the west, but recently perished in an uprising from within its own hive.
That makes sense...
Damn Hunting Cacti... Making their equivalent of Knowledge(Nature) and Knowledge(Geography) checks on us... and for half the skill point cost...
Or may don its cape and prance around the desert thinking: "I am Doomspike! Fear me and my dwelf minions!"
I see...
Doomspike considers dwelfs as animal companions...
We NEED a cactus emoticon...