Wizards has released a new downloadable adventure for d20 Modern/d20 Future involving the spaceship Beagle:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/oa/20040921a
Thought the nostalgic amonst you might be interested.
-Scott Moore
*Sheridan
Note, I don't think I want my character to end up doing them - they seemed to rely far too much on large NPC crews to back-up the party.
When I was gaming last, the newer roleplayer (good, experienced, but never played OD&D) spotted the DM's copy of Dutchy of Ten. Anyway I think they said that the original Blackmore modules are being re-done for 3E - does anyone know more?
Note, I don't think I want my character to end up doing them - they seemed to rely far too much on large NPC crews to back-up the party.
Well, much of DA1 has already been rewamped in the new D20 Blackmoor Sourcebook, from ZGG. I just got my copy yesterday, and I'm loving it!
ZGG have stated that they intend to do a rewamp of the DA 1-4 series plus the never released DA 5 City of Blackmoor, but that they will do their own take on the events, which may be somewhat different than in the original versions. Nothing more specific has been said about contents or release dates AFAIK.
Håvard
) Thanks though Sheridan over at the ZGG Forum wrote:
Looks like Mike McArtor has been out plugging Mystara again. This time in a D20 Future supplement.
Good job, Mike!
Heh. It's more coincidence than anything that I was channelling Blackmoor/Mystara with that one. My original homage was to Darwin's Beagle, but a little of that Mystara background history must have subconsiously seeped into my head when I named it the ISS Beagle. Too bad more didn't seep in, or else it would have been the FSS Beagle. Que sera.
However, as always, I shall plug the Known World whenever and however I can.
Heh. It's more coincidence than anything that I was channelling Blackmoor/Mystara with that one. My original homage was to Darwin's Beagle, but a little of that Mystara background history must have subconsiously seeped into my head when I named it the ISS Beagle. Too bad more didn't seep in, or else it would have been the FSS Beagle. Que sera.
I was trying to find more references, but I guess that explains why I couldn't find any. I liked the scenario though. I plan to pick up d20 Modern and d20 Future eventually, so maybe i'll give the scenario a go.
Actually, the scenario made me wonder what the Beagle has been up to before it crashed on Mystara. Paralells between it and the USS Enterprise were pretty evident in the DA-series, and I'd be surprised if Captain Riesling and the crew of the FSS Beagle didn't have many Star Trek style adventures.
With that in mind, perhaps Captain Riesling didn't die on Mystara but managed to get back to his little Federation to become the captain of the second FSS Beagle. (New episode, new script writer, what occurred last time forgotten ;) )
However, as always, I shall plug the Known World whenever and however I can.
Very cool.
Like I said, I think seeing Mystara related stuff appear in Dragon and Dungeon etc provides the Mystara community with some exterior influences which helps keeping us alive. I doubt it will attract too many new people to the setting, but people who haven't played in Mystara in years might see those little notices and think back to those good old days and perhaps even seek out this place.
Håvard
In particular I'm VERY interested in the following:
a. ethnicity and history of Peshwah and Afridhi (to relate them to known Mystara ethnic groups)
b. origins and background for Zugzul (in particular his history, portfolio and domains)
c. origins of the ELVES who live next to Blackmoor (I doubt this will be addressed, but it poses a MAJOR problem for continuity in Mystara)
d. info on the Egg of Coot
e. info on the Federation and the Beagle
Thanks for any information you'll give us ;)
Off-Topic PS: to reply to a note you made on the MML, Haavard, you're wrong about Chardastes being one of the Church of Traladara's deities.
WotI simply states (I quote):
"A nativa Traladarian Immortal with a small following in Karameikos. A patron of healing and medicine; his symbol is the bell. (B1-9, page 30)"
It means Chardastes's faith was native of Traladara, not that it belongs to the Church of Traladara. Therefore I stay with B1-9 that puts it in the Church of Karameikos ;)
Hey Haavard, since you seem to have your copy of Blackmoor d20, could you please post here a little review?
Hi Marco!
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this one. I don't have time to do a complete review, but I'll try to answer your questions:
EDIT: SPOILER ALERT
******************SPOILER*******************************
In particular I'm VERY interested in the following:
a. ethnicity and history of Peshwah and Afridhi (to relate them to known Mystara ethnic groups)
The Peshwa are descrived to be short, dark skinned with hard features and large straight noses. They have dark brown or red hair and curly hair is rare. Given their general description, I see no problems linking them with the Ethengars as suggested. Their names sound a bit ethegaresque too, with perhaps a bit of arab thrown in.
The Afridhi were interestingly enough described as dark skinned with red hair. This was a surprise since I had no idea what they looked like, and had pictured them a bit mongolian too. I'm guessing they are an off-shoot branch of the Tanagoro. They are short, but physically powerful. Traditionally, they use axes a, slings and spears, but have recently begun using longswords and longbows. Cthulhudrew once suggested that they were destroyed sometime after DA4, but I don't see any reason why some group might not have survived and still be around somewhere on AC1000 Mystara....
b. origins and background for Zugzul (in particular his history, portfolio and domains)
Zugzul is described as the Lord of Fire and Darkness, rather than Fire and Ice which IIRC was his old title. His domains are Death, Heart of Fire (New) and War. His favoired weapon is the battleaxe and his portoloio is conquest, death, fire and war. Nothing is given of his background, though he is feared beyond any other evil in the North.
c. origins of the ELVES who live next to Blackmoor (I doubt this will be addressed, but it poses a MAJOR problem for continuity in Mystara)
The only detail of interest here, is that there are two races of elves; one (the Cumasti) who can reproduce with humans producing half elves and one (the Westryn) who can only reproduce with elves due to a curse. Interestingly, Mystaran elves do not fit with either description. Both groups seem to have been around Blackmoor for some time. The continuity problem you talk about, I assume has to do with whether Blackmoor is located on Brun or on Skothar. IIRC the Mystara timeline mentiones some elven clans who lived close to Blackmoor (like the ancestors of the Schattenalfen and Icevale elves). If Blackmoor is located on Skothar, which is my preference, then this should probably be changed so that these elves live near Thonian settlements on Brun, rather than near Blackmoor.
d. info on the Egg of Coot
The Egg remains much of a mystery. When trying to link the Egg to Mystara, I am wondering whether the Egg could have survived the GRoF and might remain on Mystara today. Or perhaps one of its decendants, if it can reproduce.
e. info on the Federation and the Beagle
There is no mention of either in the book. There is a reference of a falling star having created the Valley of the Ancients, but I don't think this is the Beagle. The sourcebook is set about 30 years before the DA series, so I think the Beagle may not have crashed yet. Whether that will happen in this incarnation of Blackmoor remains to be seen.
Thanks for any information you'll give us ;)
Feel free to ask more. I hope my answers have been somewhat helpful. There are also other bits of info that is of interest to Mystara fans in the book, such as quite a few immortals (Khonornus, Odir[Odin], Terra, Ordana, Hella [Hel], Sollus[Ixion], Thanatos, Faunus and Hydros [Proteus?]), that are associated with Mystara. I am also considering bringing some of the others over to Mystara. Ofcourse, some of the Immortals of Blackmoor may have faded after the GRoF or even before that, but keeping them alive could be cool, now that I have writeups for them.
Due to copyright reasons, aswell as marketing reasons there is no references to Mystara within the sourcebook. Also, ZGG has said that they will keep Blackmoor independent of other settings for now and may even create their own surrounding world for Blackmoor in the future (though that probably won't happen any time soon.) Still, I see no reason why us Mystara fans shouldn't consider this a Mystara product and use it to detail Mystara's historical past.
Overall, it is a solid, nicelooking product. Mystara fans may be disappointed that there is little mention of tech, but the book is set before the DA series, and long before the High Tech Blackmoor referred to in most Mystara products. Still, there are references to Steam Tech and Clock Work tech, although these areas are still at an early stage, and have not been properly developed yet. Still, should a space ship crash in the nearby, the Blackmoorians should be properly technologically advanced to make use of this technology to improve their own science....
Off-Topic PS: to reply to a note you made on the MML, Haavard, you're wrong about Chardastes being one of the Church of Traladara's deities.
WotI simply states (I quote):
"A nativa Traladarian Immortal with a small following in Karameikos. A patron of healing and medicine; his symbol is the bell. (B1-9, page 30)"
It means Chardastes's faith was native of Traladara, not that it belongs to the Church of Traladara. Therefore I stay with B1-9 that puts it in the Church of Karameikos ;)
:embarrass Oh no! I admit defeat. I've been propagating the idea of Chardastes within the CoT for years, but you are right. Native Traladaran does not mean part of the CoT. And since B1-9 says it belongs to the CoK I must agree that that is where it belongs.
Thanks for clearing that one up for good
Havard
The only detail of interest here, is that there are two races of elves; one (the Cumasti) who can reproduce with humans producing half elves and one (the Westryn) who can only reproduce with elves due to a curse. Interestingly, Mystaran elves do not fit with either description. Both groups seem to have been around Blackmoor for some time. The continuity problem you talk about, I assume has to do with whether Blackmoor is located on Brun or on Skothar. IIRC the Mystara timeline mentiones some elven clans who lived close to Blackmoor (like the ancestors of the Schattenalfen and Icevale elves). If Blackmoor is located on Skothar, which is my preference, then this should probably be changed so that these elves live near Thonian settlements on Brun, rather than near Blackmoor.
One thing I noted, however, is that there was a division between the Cumasti and the Westryn long ago, that led the Westryn to distance themselves from mankind (while the Cumasti live near man). This is very akin to the Blackmoor elves/Returnists dichotomy that pops up in Mystaran lore.
There is no mention of either in the book. There is a reference of a falling star having created the Valley of the Ancients, but I don't think this is the Beagle. The sourcebook is set about 30 years before the DA series, so I think the Beagle may not have crashed yet. Whether that will happen in this incarnation of Blackmoor remains to be seen.
I noted this on the Zeitgeist boards just a little while ago, but actually the sourcebook seems to be set *after* the DA series of modules. Specifically, the timeline notes that Uberstar Khazakhum disappears in 1024 UC (Uther Calendar), and Bascom Ungulian disappears in 1022 UC. Since both were recorded as missing in DA1, but Ungulian (in the DAB) returns in late 1024 UC, DA1 must take place sometime during the spring of 1024 UC.
Contrast that to the timeline in the DAB stating that 1030 UC is the "present day" of the Campaign setting.
I haven't found the reference you cite about the falling star, but if it says it happened a few years back (about 5 or so), then it is likely a reference to the Beagle (which, according to DA2, crashed there around that time).
One thing I noted, however, is that there was a division between the Cumasti and the Westryn long ago, that led the Westryn to distance themselves from mankind (while the Cumasti live near man). This is very akin to the Blackmoor elves/Returnists dichotomy that pops up in Mystaran lore.
Good point. The forest way/human contact schisma seems to be a recurring theme in Mystara/Blackmoor elf society, and probably a central topic of debade among elf philosophers.
I noted this on the Zeitgeist boards just a little while ago, but actually the sourcebook seems to be set *after* the DA series of modules. Specifically, the timeline notes that Uberstar Khazakhum disappears in 1024 UC (Uther Calendar), and Bascom Ungulian disappears in 1022 UC. Since both were recorded as missing in DA1, but Ungulian (in the DAB) returns in late 1024 UC, DA1 must take place sometime during the spring of 1024 UC.
Contrast that to the timeline in the DAB stating that 1030 UC is the "present day" of the Campaign setting.
Well spotted. Although, as you probably noticed, Dustin clarified this on the ZGG boards. The events of DA1-4 (and probably DA5) will still occurr after the situation described in DAB. I think the 30 years prior thing is something I must have picked up from the ZGG guys.
OTOH, when comparing these events to the timeline ( http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/timeline.html ) on my site, it looks like alot of the events have been pushed into the future.
I'll comment more on this elsewhere ;)
I haven't found the reference you cite about the falling star, but if it says it happened a few years back (about 5 or so), then it is likely a reference to the Beagle (which, according to DA2, crashed there around that time).
The falling star reference is from page 196 under the description of the Ash Goblins. These creatures were created when the star fell. On second thought, that might very well be due to radiation. No date is given however. The Sand Folk are mentioned in the Valley of the Ancients section, but they are described as a group of humans, so more confusion there. I believed the Sandfolk were brought to Blackmoor by the Beagle, but that may have been S.B. Wilson's invention....
Håvard
Well spotted. Although, as you probably noticed, Dustin clarified this on the ZGG boards. The events of DA1-4 (and probably DA5) will still occurr after the situation described in DAB. I think the 30 years prior thing is something I must have picked up from the ZGG guys.
OTOH, when comparing these events to the timeline ( http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/timeline.html ) on my site, it looks like alot of the events have been pushed into the future.
Yeah- I just noticed that. It throws the DA series a bit out of whack, but then I'm not sure they're planning on going with the events of the DA series in future products...
[QUOTE}The falling star reference is from page 196 under the description of the Ash Goblins. These creatures were created when the star fell. On second thought, that might very well be due to radiation. No date is given however.
I noticed another reference (after you pointed it out) in one of the Afridhi tribes. Says they believe it was one of their gods being killed by his brother, and when they went to investigate, many never returned.
Maybe the Valley is just a site of extraterrestrial activity?
A couple ways to look at it. It could just be apocryphal, an old legend with little/no basis in fact. It could be that a god did fall there. It could be tied with the crystal city to the west of the City of the Gods (which is also described in DA3), or it could be the Beagle, just a lot earlier than we had supposed.
The Sand Folk are mentioned in the Valley of the Ancients section, but they are described as a group of humans, so more confusion there. I believed the Sandfolk were brought to Blackmoor by the Beagle, but that may have been S.B. Wilson's invention....
I think it was. DA3 pretty much just assumes they were always there, and when they discovered the City of the Gods, they began to worship and treat it respectfully- well, aside from the occasional raid.
Didn't notice that they had them as just a group of humans. I wonder if that's something that might change, or if they will just leave it as is?
Yeah- I just noticed that. It throws the DA series a bit out of whack, but then I'm not sure they're planning on going with the events of the DA series in future products...
Yes, it will be interesting to see how the deal with these events. I'm going to wait and see what they do and then decide which version I prefer. Actually, I am considering using DA1-4 with DAB right now. My players are already familiar with Mystara and this would be a good way of introducing them to Blackmoor....
I noticed another reference (after you pointed it out) in one of the Afridhi tribes. Says they believe it was one of their gods being killed by his brother, and when they went to investigate, many never returned.
Maybe the Valley is just a site of extraterrestrial activity?
A couple ways to look at it. It could just be apocryphal, an old legend with little/no basis in fact. It could be that a god did fall there. It could be tied with the crystal city to the west of the City of the Gods (which is also described in DA3), or it could be the Beagle, just a lot earlier than we had supposed.
If the Beagle fell, years earlier, the crew could just have gone into hibernation for a while, according to Riesling's original orders. Then Rocklin could have woken up around the time of DAB. Riesling, already wary of Rocklin could have set his own hiberntion booth to wake him should Rocklin wake up...
OTOH, if the Valley was formed by other supernatural means, these forces could be what made the Beagle crash, perhaps drawing the ship to the Valley. I never liked that whole idea of the magic of Mystara causing interference with Blackmoor's technology.
In any case, to make DAB compatible with Mystara, the Beagle must crash at some point, bringing the crew and the future Radience to Mystara. Unless you can see some other way around that?
I think it was. DA3 pretty much just assumes they were always there, and when they discovered the City of the Gods, they began to worship and treat it respectfully- well, aside from the occasional raid.
Didn't notice that they had them as just a group of humans. I wonder if that's something that might change, or if they will just leave it as is?
Interesting. The magical effects that caused the Ash Goblins to mutate could have the same effect on the Sand Folk at some point. Or, perhaps the crew of the Beagle experiment on the Sand Folk giving them an extra pair of arms to better defend the ship? Was this what you had in mind?
Already I see the D20 DAB sourcebook providing alot of new ideas for the Mystara setting...very neat!
Havard
Hi Marco!
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this one. I don't have time to do a complete review, but I'll try to answer your questions:
Take your time pal, the important is answering ;)
The Peshwa are descrived to be short, dark skinned with hard features and large straight noses. They have dark brown or red hair and curly hair is rare. Given their general description, I see no problems linking them with the Ethengars as suggested. Their names sound a bit ethegaresque too, with perhaps a bit of arab thrown in.
Yeah, we already figured the Peshwa were mongol-like from the descriptions in DA1-4 modules, but I wanted to know if there were any other ties to that culture or if they were more scythian-like (tying them perfectly with the Jennites pre-HW, that's to say basically an Oltec stock).
The Afridhi, OTOH, were tougher to identify, basing on the scant info in DA4.
The Afridhi were interestingly enough described as dark skinned with red hair. This was a surprise since I had no idea what they looked like, and had pictured them a bit mongolian too. I'm guessing they are an off-shoot branch of the Tanagoro. They are short, but physically powerful.
Traditionally, they use axes a, slings and spears, but have recently begun using longswords and longbows.
Incredibly similar to modern days Nithians (mix Oltec-Neathar) from GAZ2...
But anyways, judging from the fact they come from the mountains in the west, they shouldn't be Tanagoro (which lived south of Thonia, not north-west).
They're prolly yet another Oltec-Neathar mix and presumably extinct.
Zugzul is described as the Lord of Fire and Darkness, rather than Fire and Ice which IIRC was his old title. His domains are Death, Heart of Fire (New) and War. His favoired weapon is the battleaxe and his portoloio is conquest, death, fire and war. Nothing is given of his background, though he is feared beyond any other evil in the North.
GREAT! Finally I have it then!
When I created him for my Guide to Immortals I gave him these domains:
Energy, Evil, Fire, Magic, Death, War, (I was uncertain between War and Ice), so I guess I wasn't that far :p
I pictured him as Neutral Evil of Energy and associated him with the Nithian Corona (from GAZ2), making his attitude towards Death a malevolent influence of Thanatos during the ages, a relationship he kept however hidden.
Zugzul is IMO the patron of the current Magian Fire Worshippers in Ylaruam (the big baddies together with Barimoor and the Lizardmen undead) and of the alphatian expatriates follower of the fire in Ierendi. As such I gave him the domain of Magic, but it can be easily substituted by Darkness if needs be (being patron of Fire and Darkness), what do you think?
The only detail of interest here, is that there are two races of elves; one (the Cumasti) who can reproduce with humans producing half elves and one (the Westryn) who can only reproduce with elves due to a curse. Interestingly, Mystaran elves do not fit with either description. Both groups seem to have been around Blackmoor for some time. The continuity problem you talk about, I assume has to do with whether Blackmoor is located on Brun or on Skothar.
Nope. Actually Blackmoor MUST be located on Skothar judgin from the fact that :
1. Thonia is south of Blackmoor from DA1-4 modules and Thonia is now near north pole ON SKOTHAR.
2. Blackmoor is now north pole and obliterated, while the Blackmoor depicted in GAZ10 in what is now Borean Valley would have been still viable.
3. in HW map Blackmoor is depicted south of Thonia but this is merely a mistake. Put it north of it and you have the correct situation pre-GRoF.
There must have been other colonies of Blackmoor post-4000 PI during the nuclear industrial age, one major in Brun (near which the elves from Evergrun migrated, becoming the ancestors of the Shadow Elves and Aquarendi) and at least another major one in the south, prolly on the Oceanian peninsula (which leads me to think that the night dragons in Oceania are guarding an ancient Blackmoorian artifact discovered and hidden by Thanatos). It is likely these Blackmoorians have made first contact with the Evergrun elves.
The canon issue I have with elves near Kingdom of Blackmoor in Uther's times is that from all canon sources, elves and blackmoorians made FIRST CONTACT at the height of their empires, that is to say in BC 3500, when technology was already established in Blackmoor and Blackmoor was already an EMPIRE. So the elves living north of the small kingdom of Blackmoor in Uther's times cannot possibly be Evergrun elves.
IMO they should be alien elves, possibly arrived here via space/spelljamming or planehopping. ;)
There is no mention of either in the book. There is a reference of a falling star having created the Valley of the Ancients, but I don't think this is the Beagle. The sourcebook is set about 30 years before the DA series, so I think the Beagle may not have crashed yet. Whether that will happen in this incarnation of Blackmoor remains to be seen.
Uhm... I beg to differ. That falling star is very much likely the Beagle, since the timeframe is correct enough.
Feel free to ask more. I hope my answers have been somewhat helpful. There are also other bits of info that is of interest to Mystara fans in the book, such as quite a few immortals (Khonornus, Odir[Odin], Terra, Ordana, Hella [Hel], Sollus[Ixion], Thanatos, Faunus and Hydros [Proteus?]), that are associated with Mystara. I am also considering bringing some of the others over to Mystara. Ofcourse, some of the Immortals of Blackmoor may have faded after the GRoF or even before that, but keeping them alive could be cool, now that I have writeups for them.
Indeed this is my next question: can you name ALL of the deities listed in Blackmoor d20? And their portfolios and domains, if you can, please? ;)
That would help me considerably in trying to finish the list of ALL Mystaran Immortals from creation to 1010 AC. Actually it's already finished, I'm working on the established churches and local pantheons, so I'll just have to add these in Blackmoor time and see if they can be linked to some existing immortals (I wouldn't wanna add more, since you know, 120+ immortals is already a BIG number :p).
Thanks for the info Haavard and take care!
Yeah, we already figured the Peshwa were mongol-like from the descriptions in DA1-4 modules, but I wanted to know if there were any other ties to that culture or if they were more scythian-like (tying them perfectly with the Jennites pre-HW, that's to say basically an Oltec stock).
Well, the physical description suggests a mongol-like people, but IMO the illustration doesn't look all that mongolian. Scythian might not be too far off....
(Not that I really know what the Scythians really looked like...)
The Afridhi, OTOH, were tougher to identify, basing on the scant info in DA4.
Incredibly similar to modern days Nithians (mix Oltec-Neathar) from GAZ2...
But anyways, judging from the fact they come from the mountains in the west, they shouldn't be Tanagoro (which lived south of Thonia, not north-west).
They're prolly yet another Oltec-Neathar mix and presumably extinct.
Well, even though the Tanogoro live south of Thonia now, they could have dominated the entire continent at one point. Perhaps the Afridhi was one Tanagoro tribe that got left behind? And then perhaps mixed with the Neathar? Oltec-Neathar mix works too though. The Afridhi warrior depicted in the monster's chapter appears to have a european/caucasian facial structure though.
GREAT! Finally I have it then!
When I created him for my Guide to Immortals I gave him these domains:
Energy, Evil, Fire, Magic, Death, War, (I was uncertain between War and Ice), so I guess I wasn't that far :p
I pictured him as Neutral Evil of Energy and associated him with the Nithian Corona (from GAZ2), making his attitude towards Death a malevolent influence of Thanatos during the ages, a relationship he kept however hidden.
Zugzul is IMO the patron of the current Magian Fire Worshippers in Ylaruam (the big baddies together with Barimoor and the Lizardmen undead) and of the alphatian expatriates follower of the fire in Ierendi. As such I gave him the domain of Magic, but it can be easily substituted by Darkness if needs be (being patron of Fire and Darkness), what do you think?
I like it!
This helps tie Blackmoor closer to modern Mystara and it makes the Magien Fire Worshippers more interesting too. Besides, Zugzul is too much of a legendary villain-deity to just disappear like that.
The location of Blackmoor:
Nope. Actually Blackmoor MUST be located on Skothar judgin from the fact that :
1. Thonia is south of Blackmoor from DA1-4 modules and Thonia is now near north pole ON SKOTHAR.
2. Blackmoor is now north pole and obliterated, while the Blackmoor depicted in GAZ10 in what is now Borean Valley would have been still viable.
3. in HW map Blackmoor is depicted south of Thonia but this is merely a mistake. Put it north of it and you have the correct situation pre-GRoF.
You are preaching to the converted here Marco ;)
I agree that Blackmoor's most likely location is on Skothar, though in much of my writing I include options for placing it in Brun because many people think it should be there. If you haven't seen it yet, check out my planetary map of Mystara in the age of Blackmoor which supports your theory.
There must have been other colonies of Blackmoor post-4000 PI during the nuclear industrial age, one major in Brun (near which the elves from Evergrun migrated, becoming the ancestors of the Shadow Elves and Aquarendi) and at least another major one in the south, prolly on the Oceanian peninsula (which leads me to think that the night dragons in Oceania are guarding an ancient Blackmoorian artifact discovered and hidden by Thanatos). It is likely these Blackmoorians have made first contact with the Evergrun elves.
Makes sense to me...
I like the Night Dragon/Oceania connection with Blackmoor...
The canon issue I have with elves near Kingdom of Blackmoor in Uther's times is that from all canon sources, elves and blackmoorians made FIRST CONTACT at the height of their empires, that is to say in BC 3500, when technology was already established in Blackmoor and Blackmoor was already an EMPIRE. So the elves living north of the small kingdom of Blackmoor in Uther's times cannot possibly be Evergrun elves.
IMO they should be alien elves, possibly arrived here via space/spelljamming or planehopping. ;)
From the DAB Timeline, I got the impression that the elves had been in the North for a long time. I'm not too keen on the alien elf theory myself. One alternative explaination is that these elves left Grunland a long time ago and did not stay in contact with their native land. This could be because of political reasons or simply that they lacked the means to travel such long distances. They may even have been placed there by Ordana upon their creation (BC6000+), but if we can avoid that it would be better to have them travel there I think.
Uhm... I beg to differ. That falling star is very much likely the Beagle, since the timeframe is correct enough.
Yeah, it is possible. I haven't found any reference to when the star fell, but it could very well be the Beagle. This may be revealed in future ZGG products I suspect.
Indeed this is my next question: can you name ALL of the deities listed in Blackmoor d20? And their portfolios and domains, if you can, please? ;)
That would help me considerably in trying to finish the list of ALL Mystaran Immortals from creation to 1010 AC. Actually it's already finished, I'm working on the established churches and local pantheons, so I'll just have to add these in Blackmoor time and see if they can be linked to some existing immortals (I wouldn't wanna add more, since you know, 120+ immortals is already a BIG number :p).
Well, it is a pretty big list. Also I fear we may be touching upon an area where ZGG won't like it if I write down too much info from their book. But check out this link and you'll find at least the names of the deities. I have also listed some suggested Mystaran equivalents, but I don't think too many of them can be made into alternate identities of Mystaran immortals, since most immortals of WotI achieved immortality after the GROF. Hope you can make something out of it though. I might post more details on them later.
I am looking forward to seeing your work on Mystara's immortals. I have some thoughts on some of the pantheons by the way, specifically the pantheons of Thyatis, Karameikos, Darokin and the Norsemen, but perhaps that deserves a separate thread?
Thanks for the info Haavard and take care!
Same to you old friend
Håvard
Well, the physical description suggests a mongol-like people, but IMO the illustration doesn't look all that mongolian. Scythian might not be too far off....
(Not that I really know what the Scythians really looked like...)
Inconclusive, from what I can tell. The Scythians came from the Central Asia/Siberian regions (at least, most scholars seem to think so). As to what their racial stock was- dark skinned, light skinned, bronze skinned- no one seems to have a definitive answer. Given that they were large numbers of nomadic people, with wide ranging habitats, it isn't inconceivable (IMO) that they were of mixed stock physically.
The Afridhi warrior depicted in the monster's chapter appears to have a european/caucasian facial structure though.
Definitely. Even the pictures of the Afridhi in DA4 (Gul Hadda, certainly) seem to be caucasian.
Yeah, it is possible. I haven't found any reference to when the star fell, but it could very well be the Beagle. This may be revealed in future ZGG products I suspect.
Looking at things, it seems as if there may have been more than one falling star. The entry on the Leron clan of the Peshwah mentions they journeyed to the Valley of the Ancients in pursuit of a falling star "many ages ago". Likewise, the entry you pointed out on the Ash Goblins mentions the mutations of the goblins, and the current generation- with the implication being that the falling star that caused their mutations crashed a long time ago.
However, the entry for Hadeen talks about how he fell from the heavens prior to the "Afridhian atrocities against the Peshwah" (ie, when the Afridhi invaded, so close to the time of the Beagle's crash). However, it makes no mention of the Valley of the Ancients, so may be unrelated to the City of the Gods.
So it seems that either the Beagle hasn't crashed, the Beagle crashed a lot longer in the past than the DA series claimed, or there is no Beagle in the ZG version of Blackmoor. We'll just have to wait and see.
Inconclusive, from what I can tell. The Scythians came from the Central Asia/Siberian regions (at least, most scholars seem to think so). As to what their racial stock was- dark skinned, light skinned, bronze skinned- no one seems to have a definitive answer. Given that they were large numbers of nomadic people, with wide ranging habitats, it isn't inconceivable (IMO) that they were of mixed stock physically.
Fair enough. Linking the Peshwa to both the Ethengars and the Jennites makes alot of sense to me though.
Definitely. Even the pictures of the Afridhi in DA4 (Gul Hadda, certainly) seem to be caucasian.
Neathar-Oltec stock then, as DM suggests.
Looking at things, it seems as if there may have been more than one falling star. The entry on the Leron clan of the Peshwah mentions they journeyed to the Valley of the Ancients in pursuit of a falling star "many ages ago". Likewise, the entry you pointed out on the Ash Goblins mentions the mutations of the goblins, and the current generation- with the implication being that the falling star that caused their mutations crashed a long time ago.
However, the entry for Hadeen talks about how he fell from the heavens prior to the "Afridhian atrocities against the Peshwah" (ie, when the Afridhi invaded, so close to the time of the Beagle's crash). However, it makes no mention of the Valley of the Ancients, so may be unrelated to the City of the Gods.
So it seems that either the Beagle hasn't crashed, the Beagle crashed a lot longer in the past than the DA series claimed, or there is no Beagle in the ZG version of Blackmoor. We'll just have to wait and see.
For this purpose though, it doesn't really matter. From the DA series I didn't really get the impression that the Beagle created the Valley of the Ancients. That was more something that was indicated by the falling star reference, which as you point out could be a separate incident.
Even if the VoA was created by a meteor centuries before, there is no reason why the Beagle couldn't crash land in the same Valley.
By the way, does anyone know what the origins of the Valley of the Ancients is according to the Wilderlands Setting?
I'm curious to see how ZGG will handle the DA series events. Regardless though, for purposes of using DAB with Mystara we must assume that the Beagle has or will crash in the Valley at some point, in order for there to be a Radience.
The way I see it, DAB is an excellent resource for developing Mystara's past. In the main sourcebook, there is nothing that contradicts using it with Mystara, except that the timeline from DA1-4 needs to be tweaked around a little. How future products will fit with Mystara remains to be seen.
Håvard
Basically the official timeline says that the Elves got nurtured and protected by the forest spirits and were later (BC 5000) forced to leave paradise, thereby founding the first great elvish civilization in Evegrun.
If we go with the theory that the elves' paradise (the place the Ordana created them) is on Mystara but is not properly on its surface, then maybe we can understand why we have elves in sout-western Brun (Evergrun) as well as in north-eastern Skothar (near Blackmoor area).
Think about this: the "forest spirits" are the faedorne (from O2, Blade of Vengeance) and the elves' paradise are the Shining Isles that float around Mystara above the clouds. After 1000 years of nurturing them and making them grow in number on these isles, Ordana decides to put the elves on Mystara and places some of them in Evergrun, while some others in Skothar, thus forming two realms which didn't know of one another until Blackmoorians and elves met in BC 3500! And since there already were elves living near Blackmoor, the southern elves were encouraged by Blackmoorians to move near the new Brunian colony of Blackmoor (New Blackmoor or Nova Blackmoor should be located north of Wendar, and the elves settled south of it, becoming the ancestors of the Shadow Elves and Aquarendi) in order to colonize that faraway land!
Then during the Great Rain of FIre basically all of the northern elves were obliterated as well as Blackmoor and thos few who survived were those elves who had already moved to Brun (in fact there's a pregenerated PC in DA1 who's a grand-nephew of one of Blackmoor's elven NPCs!).
And here we have explained where those mysterious Blackmoor elves came from, without resorting to alien elves! ;)
If we go with the theory that the elves' paradise (the place the Ordana created them) is on Mystara but is not properly on its surface, then maybe we can understand why we have elves in sout-western Brun (Evergrun) as well as in north-eastern Skothar (near Blackmoor area).
Think about this: the "forest spirits" are the faedorne (from O2, Blade of Vengeance) and the elves' paradise are the Shining Isles that float around Mystara above the clouds. After 1000 years of nurturing them and making them grow in number on these isles, Ordana decides to put the elves on Mystara and places some of them in Evergrun, while some others in Skothar, thus forming two realms which didn't know of one another until Blackmoorians and elves met in BC 3500! And since there already were elves living near Blackmoor, the southern elves were encouraged by Blackmoorians to move near the new Brunian colony of Blackmoor (New Blackmoor or Nova Blackmoor should be located north of Wendar, and the elves settled south of it, becoming the ancestors of the Shadow Elves and Aquarendi) in order to colonize that faraway land!
Not bad! I like using the Fadorne, they were never properly integrated with Mystara IMO, and I think they deserve a place. This helps explain what they are doing there too...
Then during the Great Rain of FIre basically all of the northern elves were obliterated as well as Blackmoor and thos few who survived were those elves who had already moved to Brun (in fact there's a pregenerated PC in DA1 who's a grand-nephew of one of Blackmoor's elven NPCs!).
Well, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some elves surviving on Skothar...
Håvard
IIRC somebody created a strange elven civilization in Skothar (Calengaer?), but as much as I'd like to have it founded by Blackmoor survivors, I find it rather hard to believe... but not impossible (on Mystara, impossible is nothing :D ;))
Well I don't wanna sound pessimistic, Haavard, but given the fact they were close to Blackmoor and that the whole Blackmoor got annihilated and moved to the north pole (which actually is a big opening now), the possibility that some elves might have saved themselves is veeeery unlikely. Unless they somehow managed to escape on the Shining Isles or via some other magical means, because even retreating in the bowels of earth would have not spared them (remember the pole shift and the annihilation of the polar regions).
I agree. Anyone living near Blackmoor should have been killed. OTOH, by the time of Blackmoor's greatness, some of the elves belonging to these cultures could have moved to the southern parts of Skothar. If so, I think there is a chance that they could have survived. Anyone living in the area covered on the classic Blackmoor and ZGG maps will no doubt have been destroyed, but people living say in the Thonia region could have survived, as did many Skandaharians and Peshwa.
The reason why I am pushing this is because I think we could use the Blackmoor material (both old and new) as a basis for developing AC1000 Skothar. Some of the races, both human and demi-human could still exist there in some form or other.
Ofcourse, realistically speaking, I have no idea if even the entire continent could sustain life after a destruction of that magnitude. But assuming that they survived the initial explosions and destruction, magic could have helped make it through Nuclear winters and radiation.
What do you think?
IIRC somebody created a strange elven civilization in Skothar (Calengaer?), but as much as I'd like to have it founded by Blackmoor survivors, I find it rather hard to believe... but not impossible (on Mystara, impossible is nothing :D ;))
Interesting, perhaps it could be used with my ideas above as a basis. I'll see if I can find it on starflung...err...mystaranet!
Håvard