But I think LG is on to something nonetheless.
When Greyhawk next emerges from its cocoon, it is going to have to bust out with something new, interesting and different. Look at the history of the setting.
EGG gave us the basic setup and that went for years.
FtA was a deliberate attempt, good or bad, to shake things up because TSR could not just relaunch WoG with only mild changes from the EGG version. To justify the relaunch, they had to shake up WoG and went with the Greyhawk Wars.
LGG was a very mild updating or cleaning up of the setting. The worst excesses of FtA era products were cleaned up. There was some streamlining. And the WoG timeline was materially advanced in several quarters. But there was no BIG EVENT.
LGG could get away with this conservative approach because, after FtA, that was what was needed and necessary. You can't have just a succession or string of BIG EVENTS. It would look hokey. ::LG I'm looking at you::
Now, however, after LGG, if Greyhawk ever relaunches, it will need a BIG EVENT to justify the relaunch. And it can't be another war. Been there and done that with FtA. And it can't see devils and demons all over the place. Been there and done that with FtA.
So what is THE NEXT BIG THING for WoG?
LG is, maybe, sensing something of this and swinging for the fenses. Or maybe not. Point is, there will be a need for something BIG before WoG can ever hope to relaunch.
Personally, I am hoping that Dragon/Dungeon understands that they could do a Greyhawk BIG THING just as they did with the Githyanki mega-issue crossover. Revisist the setting and change it IN A BIG WAY. Bold move? Sure. Problematic? Sure. Likely to grab readers attention? Sure. Likely to sell issues to see what the fuss is about (and better if done as well as Castle Maure)? Sure. For every reason not to risk it, there is a reason to risk it. I hope they throw the dice.
Any way, so you are in charge. The Apprentice sans The Donald. You are fantasy WoG line director for WotC. You are going to relaunch Greyhawk with fanfare. What are you going to trumpet? What's your NEXT BIG THING for Greyhawk?
GVD
Hmm ..
- Far Realms invasion (contamination rather) of Oerth via the gate in Firestorm Peak (actually, that one is underway right now IMC). When any of your closest friends can suddenly turn into a tangle of fanged tentacles, you start getting a little paranoid :88E:
- Letting the
at the core of the Night Below conspiracy succeed (that would be as radical as you can get!)- Enacting the events of the Gord series (apocalyptic ending anyone?)
- Letting Iuz win (would turn WoG into a Midnight-type campaign)
(Looking at my map of Oerth) During the last few weeks, we discused outher regions of Oerik - so what about an elven invasion from the south? The, say, rests of the Olven people could awake from their sleep, and, led by the platin drake dragonus, searching vengeance for what was done to them by the heirs of Vecna's followers - the humans!
What, if the magic barrier between what once was the celestial empire(?) faded and a highly advanced nation set war of (aztecs, babylonians, I don't reallyknow) on the southern Flanaess?
And one more thing: There was quite a riot, when Vecna's hand and eye were found? Anyone ever speculated what would be if his heart or brain were found? (Surely they did. The case might be that I don't know...)
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Seems that a war might be the easiest possibility to change Oerik... or is it that I am too unimaginative?!
(Looking at my map of Oerth) During the last few weeks, we discused outher regions of Oerik - so what about an elven invasion from the south? The, say, rests of the Olven people could awake from their sleep, and, led by the platin drake dragonus, searching vengeance for what was done to them by the heirs of Vecna's followers - the humans!
Could work .. if the elf race had all but disappeared from the Flanaess for the last few hundreds years (else, no surprise factor). What's more, if your invasion comes from the south, then it will probably be Touv or Olman .. or Yuan-ti come to think of it...
What, if the magic barrier between what once was the celestial empire(?) faded and a highly advanced nation set war of (aztecs, babylonians, I don't really know) on the southern Flanaess?
Just have the different factions of the Chainmail setting get their act together and they could invade the rest of Oerik easily (especially with the artifacts of a dead god to open the way...)
And one more thing: There was quite a riot, when Vecna's hand and eye were found? Anyone ever speculated what would be if his heart or brain were found? (Surely they did. The case might be that I don't know...)
Actually, no. There wasn't a riot because the Co8 (or, rather, their henchmen) took care of him before it became public knowledge. Since then, Vecna has become a lesser god, not to mention the local font of knowledge about Ravenloft
Er .. I don't think anyone ever found Vecna's heart or, especially, his brain. He would have had trouble doing anything without at least the last item (even as a lich) :D
The next big thing for the World of Greyhawk is the publication of Castle Zagyg.
Concentrate on developing what's already there.
off the top of my head....
1) How about an eastern invasion aka 1492 after all the sea barons are now exploring the solnor ocean as never before perhaps they found a new settled continent and given tales of the fractured nature of the flanness...are those new ships here for trade or conquest that appear off the shattered GK coast.
2) The Mahdi of the Steppes : The paymins nomads have always been vague...according to the LGG a new mahdi has arisen among the steppes and has the loyalty of the dervish tribes tie this with the recent wars...new mahdi hearing of the persecution and growing corruption of the baklnish brothers of the west (wolf / tiger nomads) is planning a new righteous horde to cleanse the north of the unrigteous and herectical. Maybe Rary didn't flee the Steppes and Ket to simply build an empire but to escape the madhi because he committed some sacrilege in his relentless quest for power. Once holy wars start who knows where it ends.
3) The new Ilkhan of the Tiger Nomads is willing to listen to Iuz's honeyed words but isn't ready to allow the decimation of his nomadic brothers of the Wolf Nomads since the two nations were once "the brazen horde" what if a private deal is struck between Iuz and the Ilkhan...Iuz raids the Wolf Nomads until they come to the Tiger Ilkhan for aid than an offer is made to reunite the nations as a new horde under the Ilkhans leadership to defend nomadic lands, Iuz skirmishes and then backs off the Ilkhan declares victory and given the poor northern lands proposes to the Horde strikes the rich south instead. The Ilkhan has reunited the horde a nomadic dream both nations share and is hailed as a protective hero and bulwark against Iuz by the nomads and Iuz gets some breathing space to strengthen his Empire as the new nomadic onslaught diverts men and resources toward the new threat and away from him.
comments?
The Mahdi of the Steppes : The paymins nomads have always been vague...according to the LGG a new mahdi has arisen among the steppes and has the loyalty of the dervish tribes tie this with the recent wars...new mahdi hearing of the persecution and growing corruption of the baklnish brothers of the west (wolf / tiger nomads) is planning a new righteous horde to cleanse the north of the unrigteous and herectical. Maybe Rary didn't flee the Steppes and Ket to simply build an empire but to escape the madhi because he committed some sacrilege in his relentless quest for power. Once holy wars start who knows where it ends
Ooh, I like this one. Of course, it turns up the heart again on Bissel but with their new racist laws they had it coming anyway.
The new Ilkhan of the Tiger Nomads is willing to listen to Iuz's honeyed words but isn't ready to allow the decimation of his nomadic brothers of the Wolf Nomads since the two nations were once "the brazen horde" what if a private deal is struck between Iuz and the Ilkhan...Iuz raids the Wolf Nomads until they come to the Tiger Ilkhan for aid than an offer is made to reunite the nations as a new horde under the Ilkhans leadership to defend nomadic lands, Iuz skirmishes and then backs off the Ilkhan declares victory and given the poor northern lands proposes to the Horde strikes the rich south instead. The Ilkhan has reunited the horde a nomadic dream both nations share and is hailed as a protective hero and bulwark against Iuz by the nomads and Iuz gets some breathing space to strengthen his Empire as the new nomadic onslaught diverts men and resources toward the new threat and away from him.
Nice too. Right now, doesn't work as the Tiger and Wolf nomads are at war with each other (again ) but in the near future ... :fight!:
Valharic - You know, Tharizdun is IMO overdone in GH of late but I think this may not be so bad an idea after all. If Tharizdun were brought back, the setting might finally be able to get past him and the Gord discontinuity. I like this idea. In spite of myself.
Ivid - Something with the elves is pretty serviceable idea as not much has been done with the demi's in GH. There is certainly untapped potential.
Faraer - "Gary's intent" is irrelevant. Gary is Greyhawk's past. Gary is not Greyhawk's future. He has no connection with the IP, hasn't had for years and is unlikely to in the future. Castle Zagyg is a third party effort precisely because Gary can't touch the WoG IP. Castle Zagyg is of curiousity value vis a vis GH, but that is it. As far as future development, Gary and Castle Zagyg are not germane to the topic.
Lincoln Hills - An interesting observation. I find it difficult to imagine that the LGG (the most current statement on WoG) could simply be reprinted with any hope of successfully relaunching WoG at any point, now or in the future. Unless you are advocating for the LGG as the final word on GH, I think there will have to be some significant changes. I say this because the LGG both begins and ends in medias re. It is more a continuing than either a beginning or an end. Given the character of the LGG, I think there must be a Big Thing for a relaunch because the LGG can't support such, nor was it intended to. As for FtA's less than resounding success, I think it is water under the bridge. Greyhawk has moved on to Moore and Mona. Continued evolution, I believe is the only alternative to stagnation. I'm not disagreeing with you about FtA, merely noting that there is no choice but to go forward, or die.
Yamo - See my comments to Faraer. Gygax is WoG's past. He is not the future because he has no connection to the intellectual property. That's not his fault but it is reality. Gary's way does not equal GH's way. Greyhawk has moved on beyond Gygax - Sargent, Moore, Mona. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle.
Nightdruid - Excellent observation. A series of adventures could well be an alternative to another way. The subject of those adventures would need to be determined, of course. Something of this was tried with GH 98 but it was not sufficiently ambitious (Lost Cairn Series) and got fouled up with the "Return" products to some degree. I would not want to see more "Returns" but something new. Good thoughts!
Crag - I like the 1492 idea best. With all those seafarers, you'd think someone might work up the nerve to go exploring or just get blown off course during a storm. I'm less hot for the Madhi as it has been done in FR (Horde), Mystara (Desert Nomads) and even GH to a limited degree in the GH Wars. And as for Iuz. Less said the better IMO. ;) I'll take 1492 of the lot.
Very interesting ideas in the main!
GVD
Luckily WotC is well aware of how Wars and From the Ashes divided Greyhawk fans, of how strongly many Realms fans oppose RSEs, and since it has this new setting pitched to appeal to lovers of novelty and flash, I doubt it would try the same with the World of Greyhawk whose draw is different.
I do think Mona has a fond regard for Gygax and greatly appreciates his style and substance. That is different than relevance, however. Were Paizo possessed of the means and desire to do more than embroider around the edges of Greyhawk or memorialize its odd parts, I have no doubt that the resulting product would be wholly of Mona’s own conception, informed certainly by Gygax but also Sargent, Moore, Reynolds and the rest. Ultimately, it would be his own unique vision, not simply an apeing of Gary Gygax.
While I take your point on legalism versus creative influence, Gygax has been far removed from Greyhawk creatively. Not that he choose this but it is a fact. In the interim, Sargent, Moore, Mona etc. have taken Greyhawk and run with it. What remains of Gygax’ creative influence on Greyhawk is substantially leavened or diluted by later contributors to the setting. Where once Gary was Greyhawk, this is no longer the case. Legally or creatively.
I am not dismissing the spirit and origin of the setting but acknowledging that that spirit no longer solely animates the setting and that we have come far from the origin. To speak of Greyhawk as it is now presented, one must speak of more than its origin and initial spirit. Gary is not now Greyhawk. One can be a fan of Gygax and one can be a fan of Greyhawk. They are not mutually exclusive but neither are they the same.
The division of Greyhawk fans occasioned by From the Ashes was very real. Past tense. I think that Greyhawk fans now following the setting, in the main, have made peace with From the Ashes. In doing so, they have made peace with radical change within the setting. I do not believe that great change within the setting would be greeted today as it was when From the Ashes first departed from the original conception of Greyhawk. I think fans of the setting now understand that change and the advancement of the storyline of Greyhawk will not be predictable, stagnant or necessarily running in channels tried and true. Indeed, Living Greyhawk, say what you will about it, is introducing a whole new group of fans to Greyhawk and Living Greyhawk is not shy about enacting huge changes, say what you want about the wisdom of that. The point is Greyhawk fans, I believe, are and will be far more accepting of change in the setting. WotC would be foolish to not understand the dynamics impacting their market.
I think you too narrowly define the “draw” of Greyhawk. Greyhawk is not a museum piece to be reverently regarded under glass. Neither is it a nostalgic reverie for gamers half way or better to Social Security. Greyhawk is a living organism and it adapts. If it will not or cannot adapt, it dies and is then placed in the aforementioned categories. Some may find that a comforting thought but I think any such grave offers but cold comfort.
IMO Greyhawk has a future. That future includes Gary Gygax’ past contributions but is neither defined by nor limited to those contribuitions. The future is not Gygax. He has, however, helped lay the foundation upon which the future will be built. If that is not enough, then I think it is putting a love of Gygax ahead of a love of Greyhawk. I’ll take Greyhawk. Gygax is but a man and mortal. Greyhawk is immortal.
GVD
What I think would be cool and something I thought about developing for my personal campaign is a return of the Fae Courts to Greyhawk. Alluded to a little bit by Sargent and the whole Moonarch - Lendore Isles stuff, an "Elven Kingdom" crashing on to the beaches of the Great Kingdom and forcing much of the evil there out would be great. We already have plenty of evil lands and the former Great Kingdom is a mess. A chaotic good power and an elven stronghold in its place would be kinda cool. Plus I would like to see someone realistically stand up to the Scarlet Brotherhood and be a buffer.
As for Gygax, I gotta agree with GVD above. If you want Nostalgia Hawk in your home game, fine. It isn't against the law (though it might get you reported to the Dept. of Homeland Security :P). Confining the canon development of Greyhawk to "Return to the Return to the Son of the Children of the Revenge of the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil IV - Search for Elmo" will kill Greyhawk stone dead. Gary is a great guy, he come up with a great game and setting, but to limit development of the setting to stuff he did is crazy.
Greyhawk is like a shark, it needs to keep moving to survive. Equally though, keeping moving doesn't mean a Time of Troubles or Greyhawk Wars or that crazy stuff they did to Krynn every other Godsday. Explore the rest of Oerik, define the geography, the peoples, the plots, the intrigues, the tensions (kinda like the original GH Folio or 83 boxed set, but writ large). Set up the dynamics and let DMs and players do the rest.
That's where GH has gotta go, IMO.
P.
A chaotic good power and an elven stronghold in its place would be kinda cool. Plus I would like to see someone realistically stand up to the Scarlet Brotherhood and be a buffer.
You mean Ahlissa as it is now, is not a serious buffer for Scarlet Brotherhood? Heck, probably the only reason that prevents Xavener from assaulting Tilvanot peninsula is the fear of North Kingdom/Nyrond.
Reydrich almost did it once, so why not Xavener? Ahlissa certainly has resources to go toe to toe with anyone in Flanaess and emerge victorious, but as LGG says, it's not in their interest, expect with Solnor Compact over the ruins of Medegia.
S.H, Principality of Naerie webslave
You mean Ahlissa as it is now, is not a serious buffer for Scarlet Brotherhood? Heck, probably the only reason that prevents Xavener from assaulting Tilvanot peninsula is the fear of North Kingdom/Nyrond.
Reydrich almost did it once, so why not Xavener? Ahlissa certainly has resources to go toe to toe with anyone in Flanaess and emerge victorious, but as LGG says, it's not in their interest, expect with Solnor Compact over the ruins of Medegia.
I don't think they could do it all the way through at this time. In 5 to 10 years, perhaps. Now, no.
For one thing, Xavener is busy trying to (re)build a fleet and, especially, heal the economy of his kingdom.
For another he still has the Reydrich clone spying on him for the SB (yes, I know, it's not a popular topic among fans but it is canon)
Moreover, though it suffered from a few setbacks, the SB is still strong and seems to have formed a pact with the Pomarj (at least if what currently happens in LG holds true).
It may seem that Ahlissa could just roll over Nyrond or the Tilvanot Peninsula (though it would have to crush Sunndi first), but I am convinced that right now it can't afford it.
He is not the future because he has no connection to the intellectual property.
He created the "Greyhawk property." That's a connection that cannot be severed. Period. Even if he had dropped dead the day after the original boxed set went to the printers.
Your mad rush to dismiss him, obviously calculated to give you a smug sense of petty satisfaction through "shocking the fanboys", just rings hollow.
Nice try, though.
Gary is a great guy, he come up with a great game and setting, but to limit development of the setting to stuff he did is crazy.
The idea is not to limit yourself to only addressing topics he did, but to avoid advancing the calender with some sort of stupid, Forgotten Realms-style "earthshaking metaplot" that underminds individual campaigns. Oerth is a huge world. You can develop it over a hundred books without instituting creeping metaplot or fast-forwarding years into the future.
I had thought that to have been spelled-out plainly enough...
To me, I think the next "coming thing" (to steal a theme from Brisco County Jr ;) ) for GH should come not as an FR-style cataclysm, but as a series of adventures ala Against the Giants.
This is an EXCELLENT idea!
Official WotC d20 D&D adventures done 1E TSR style!
The idea is not to limit yourself to only addressing topics he did, but to avoid advancing the calender with some sort of stupid, Forgotten Realms-style "earthshaking metaplot" that underminds individual campaigns. Oerth is a huge world. You can develop it over a hundred books without instituting creeping metaplot or fast-forwarding years into the future.
I had thought that to have been spelled-out plainly enough...
Ok, maybe I missed that, but we're in agreement then. Expand and evolve sensibly, rather than having a series of increasingly contrived worldshaking threats or reploughing 20 year old furrows (not that that doesn't have it's place, but in the context of the evolution of the setting as a whole).
P.
This is an EXCELLENT idea!
Official WotC d20 D&D adventures done 1E TSR style!
Well, to me, it always seem that FR was the plot-heavy world, while GH style worked best when it was adventure-driven rather than plot-driven. But as I say, my opinion only. This is an EXCELLENT idea!
Official WotC d20 D&D adventures done 1E TSR style!
oooh, I like the 1e ones ... they were put in a specific setting, but could be easily used anywhere.
the classics are great, but I'd like to see some new ones.
The next big thing for the World of Greyhawk is the publication of Castle Zagyg.
Yep. And if the authors have been blessed by The Spirit of Greyhawk: it should be the coolest thing in a long time.
That shows how much imagination and potential remains for fantasy settings, rpg or other!
2. I doubt that explanations of non - Flanaess terrirories of Oerth would serve to relaunch Greyhawk in a big way:
There has been made too much fan stuff in this section.
If I am not wrong, I think the d20 game of Nyambe was intended to illustrate Hepmonaland and the Amedio Jungle.
Aquaria, generally accepted as the WoG "Taladas", tells about the eastern lands.
And with Chainmail, Kara Tur and Maztica you have overwhelming informations easily to be added to your gaming world.
I am convinced that the only viable intend to relaunch Greyhawk would go with the introduction of Elder Gods and more humanoids (which, for the Flanaess, means the revelation of the remaining Elven realms).
But wouldn't that kill the Greyhawk flavour and convert (yes, I've been knocked down for this phrase earlier) into some kind of older FR?
In my opinion, this problem could be the major point why noone dares to touch Greyhawk anymore.
What I personally would suggest would be a major update of the old material, for the new generation of players.
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By the way, I am convinced that Vecna could have lived having lost his brain.
I knowliving people in my nearest vicinity that do so for years.
;)
What I personally would suggest would be a major update of the old material, for the new generation of players.
Amen to that.
I have to say, this thread is just what I've been waiting for! So many fantastic ideas from you all. Many appeal to me, but to have the Paizo people bring it all to fruition seems best. They seem to be slowly breathing life back into our beloved Greyhawk !!!
Personally, I've always felt that the Paynims and their Mahdi were a great big war just waiting to happen. A religious war led by vaguely arabic tribes, however, would probably be politically incorreect to say the least. The awakening of the Olven races, however, seems antithetical to the historical trends of those peoples on Oerth.
A seaborne invasion, or one from the Celestial Empire, not that really sounds more workable. Many new elements couls be introduced, while little-documented lands could be further detailed.
However it goes, folks, just wanted to say thanx for all the good energy!!
In 3E, it is still the blank canvas for gamers to paint their own world. The problem new gamers have with Greyhawk is that it is TOO blank…too bland. But that is because they do not realize how big a canvas Greyhawk is. All they know of it are the bare bones shown to them in the core books. For these gamers to appreciate the WoG they need to see more.
But trying to promote Greyhawk through a major event would contradict its appeal. It turns the potential for anything into something specific.
This is what I think WotC should do to put WoG back in the hearts and minds of gamers everywhere....
Publish a hardcover Greyhawk setting and MAP updating the box set WoG. I do not mean a gazetteer or living Greyhawk… I mean a book that equals the Faerun setting. And here is the catch…LEAVE IT AT THAT! Don’t dilute it with a new region focus hardback every 5 months as in Faerun.
Instead, for each region publish an old school ADVENTURE! (smiles at Nightdruid)
This is good for a few reasons.
- Adventures don’t add so much to the region that the DM can’t have his own vision of that region. Greyhawk thus remains a default world
- If players become interested in a region after playing an adventure they refer back to the book they have, not wait for the next book to be released. And campaigns won’t have to be retooled to fit the new info, or scrapped altogether.
- Adventures are cheaper than hardcovers. Cheaper is better. There is an untapped market of gamers out there who won’t spend simply because books are expensive.
- The WoG book will never collect dust on book shelves or more importantly store shelves. If it is the only source, more people will buy; as they are confident, it will get much use and be money well spent.
- If done correctly (1E style) there will be once again D&D players talking about how much fun this or that adventure was…a common thread from one group to the next. And the best advertising is always word of mouth.
So WoG fans are happy (and spend money)
Frugal gamers are happy (and spend money)
Retailers are happy (and spend money)
And Hasbro is happy (MADE money)
Anyway, that’s my opinion. Hope I made a point in there somewhere.
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What a great topic!
The awakening of the Olven races, however, seems antithetical to the historical trends of those peoples on Oerth.
A seaborne invasion, or one from the Celestial Empire, not that really sounds more workable. Many new elements couls be introduced, while little-documented lands could be further detailed.
However it goes, folks, just wanted to say thanx for all the good energy!!
It's not that it sounded plausible or would fit into the history of the Flanaess - it's just that there are few other possibilities of making a renovation of the setting AND maintaining at least SOME connection with the past.
When I started to write down what will be released as
:OMG! Kul'gobsula - Prison of Ice :OMG!
I read all Oerthian timelines I could get my fingers on. And really, there is few space for any more developments, at least as far as I know .
The only spaces that remain being great enigmas are the southern Oerik lands , the celestial empire and the southern elven colonies and the last lost olven enclaves.
Any other thing would hardly be connected to what we call *Greyhawk*.
Besides, anyone ever thought about that the only free modules along the web are Ivid the Undying and Aquaria, which is meant to detail the lands east of Oerik and considered at least semi - official. Those two modules match perfectly together, as each details one side of an ocean's shore connecting two continents!
What do you all think about putting together stuff for a major update for the Aquaria region? :D
*Is so tired of working on Kul'gobsula that he begins to fantasise on writing roleplaying books...*
1: Aquaria is considered semi-offical? Since when? Brickbat me if I'm wrong, but is Aquaria the place with all the Aerdi descended kings called John? If that's semi-official, I'll brickbat myself.
2: The Mahdi and a religious war of unification in the Bakluni lands politically incorrect? Reality check, folks. GH is a game.
3: Existing fan stuff should be no barrier to expansion beyond the edges of the Darlene map. It can either be incorporated or where that's not possible, it will be put in the catagory of all the other home-game heresies (not bad, not wrong, just not canon).
P.
Greater Oerik-ist ;)
... errr... forgot the exact phrase... VERY FITTING FOR WOG...I think that's the best compliment you can make to a fan designer...
Aquaria and the next big thing for Greyhawk: A naval conflict between some animuse zombie pirates from the Aerdi and
happy*friendly*fellow*sailors from the East, wouldn't be a bad choice, in my opinion...Although Aquaria is in no way official, it's the most talked fan supplement for Greyhawk except the Oerth Journals, I think.
That's what I meant calling it bluntly semi-official.
I've no problem with Oerdians across the Solnor, nor even with *some* Aerdi over there, but the Kingdom of the innumberable Kings John is well...silly.
And with the AD&D Odyssey (there is a good map out there putting the Flanaess on the Mystaran world, BTW), you are not really in need of *John's Rule*.
Really, I want to introduce Savage Coast in a Greyhawkian setting someway and play the free adventures...
The Aquaria stuff, as long as I know, is totally free.
Maybe you can't compare it with *professional* work, but nevertheless I liked it.
Also, if the D&D 4th edition is to be based on Eberron (the D&D online game will use it as *default* setting, I think), we will have to rely on fan stuff entirely for newer information, at least for a while.
BTW, I think, as a resume, and having thought about for a while, I think, if there is a next big thing for Greyhawk to come, it will be that the license wil be sold to a third-party-developer.
I didn't believe that WotC would ever drop Greyhawk, but everything leads to that point, if the rumours about 4th edition are true.
[INDENT]
Don’t dilute it with a new region focus hardback every 5 months as in Faerun.
Instead, for each region publish an old school ADVENTURE!
[/INDENT]
Except for the usual problem with that. Sourcebooks sell a lot better than adventures!
Most players avoid buying adventures but many like to buy sourcebooks.
Most DMs only buy adventures they think they'll DM, but every sourcebook for "their" world.
And there are a lot of inactive ("not playing right now") fans who buy sourcebooks, but not adventures.
All in all, adventures take a lot of development (and playtesting) but don't sell as well as sourcebooks.
Nothing that is ever published (either by WotC or fan-run organizations, like LG or Canonfire) will ever undermine anyone's home campaign, unless they decide to allow it to do so. No DM ever has to incorporate something if they don't want to.
So, you want to re-launch Greyhawk? How do they do it in such a way that will bring people to the table to dine on the results? You've got to hit them with something they want; something that really hasn't been done before or even recently for Greyhawk.
Most people are of the opinion now (and even way back when) that Greyhawk is/was the hobbyist /gamer's campaign. Not a lot of concrete info is/was available for the setting so you had to do it yourself. The basic framework was there, but the rest was up to you(unlike the Forgotten Realms which pumped out such a deluge of products and in enough detail that you knew how many piercings the Mistress of Pain's high priest had and where they were located on his body!!! ).
People like two things in the main, other than the core setting book, and this is exemplified by the products that are released for other campaign worlds. These two products are adventures set in the campaign world and geographical sourcebooks(that also contain info on the local powers/organizations).
Lets touch on the core product first though, the core setting book. First off, it has to have a state of the art, slightly more detailed map within the back cover (I'd also make this available for download on the company website for anybody who wanted to download it and have it printed out and laminated full size- some people don't like folded maps. This is just a nice gesture on the part of the company for the people who make it all happen for them- the fans(ie. customers).
The content would include the regular general overview of the lands (similar to LGG) but nothing too detailed, as this book is meant to be more of an introduction to the World of Greyhawk. The book would also contain Greyhawk specific feats. I'd include regional feats and languages, and some languages would be bonuses for some areas. For example, characters from Zeif would speak Common and receive Baklunish as a bonus language at the start. I'd include these types of things for nearly all of the nations(with a few exceptions). Americans often take for granted that people on the other side of the nation speak the same language, whereas in Europe an afernoon drive can take you into another country witha completely different language. it is simple to bring that mystique to the WoG by simple use of regional languages- characters will know they are really somewhere different when they can't understand everything that is being said around them. Characters from the Bandit kingdoms might gain Mercenary's Cant as a bonus(or at least have it as an optional language that could be chosen), as might characters from a number of different lands/cities. Thieves' Cant and other secret languages would return as well. These simple things add a bit of flair to the game without giving undo bonuses to characters.
Next would be Greyhawk specific prestige classes. Examples of these would be Knight of the Hart, Gnarley Forest Ranger, Thieves Guild Member, Mages Guild Member, etc. These prestige classes would focus on the regions and organizations from which characters most often originate or gravitate to(no evil prestige classes generally- that comes later on
). An all-inclusive section on the Greyhawk pantheon would be next. No avatar stats, just the domains, holy days, cleric garb, and a basic description of what each religion is about. Deity specific special spells would make a return as well. They might be in deity specific domains instead or as variant spells that replace spells currently in one of the domains if they contradict the deity’s tenets (yes, clerics of Wee Jas won't be casting animate dead!).
Next we have a section on one of the things that has really defined Greyhawk in many people minds, regardless of the campaign world they play in: named spells. Realms mages might not know who Melf is, but they sure do love his Melf's Acid Arrow spell(sure the named is amended now, but we all know where it came from)! A basic round up of quite a bit of 'Pages from the Mages" would be included here, plus a few new ones as well from everyone's favorite wizards.
The next section would cover all of the unique cleric spells of the Greyhawk faiths, with a few new ones as well to help flesh out some of the largely ignored faiths.
The next section would be Magic items of Greyhawk. This is pretty self-explanatory. The section would include unique items, as well as artifacts both major and minor. This section I put a question mark by as perhaps being more suitable for a more DM specific book, but it might just have to go in herre instead.
The final section would be Monsters of Greyhawk. The choices for this section would be made by looking over all past Dungeons & Dragons products (mainly adventures) and seeing which monsters have not already been published elsewhere. Whatever remained would go here. A few new ones would be introduced as well.
This would all be topped off by a robust index. Also, the table of contents would include sub-sections of the basic sections in some cases as well, for ease of locating information. I would also do something which makes finding the beginnings of sections even more easy- color coding the outside edges of the pages by section. These are simple things that make the ease of use that much better. I would do this with all books in the series.
I’ll end this post here. The next one goes into what could be done with the other two most wanted products: adventures and sourcebooks.
---Cebrion
Next are adventures set in the campaign world and sourcebooks. I’ll start first with sourcebooks, because you’ve got to know about where you are before you can write an adventure taking place in that area.
Sourcebooks would follow a standard format, such that each section of each book would be in the same order. Once you are familiar with one sourcebook layout, you will be familiar with all future sourcebook layouts. Nothing is more irritating that to see a lack of continuity in this aspect of a product line (ex. Npc’s are covered in the last 10 pages of this book, on pages 30 to 40 of this 140 page book, and on pages 80 to 90 in this 140 page book). Simply maintain an orderly format and stick to it. Sourcebooks would be quality soft covers along the lines of the soft cover Forgotten Realms sourcebooks. I’d prefer about 2/3 of the book to be campaign-impacting background material (stories, organizations and their motives, etc.) and the other 1/3 to be game-impacting material (npc’s stats from organizations, special prestige classes, unique magic items and spells, monsters, etc.). That is step one.
Step two is to lay out the guts of the sourcebook. That is to say, things other than the introduction, table of contents, and various bits of cool fluff that appears throughout the book. First would be an overview of the lands, but in much more detail than is contained in the core World of Greyhawk book. Next would be a section on the rulers/factions of each section of the lands covered in the book, including motivations/goals for said rulers/factions and stats for the most prominent individuals. Prestige classes specific to organizations not generally open to player characters in most DM’s campaigns, but that will often be encountered as NPC antagonists will be presented here as well(such as Monk of the Scarlet Sign, or Doom Dreamer of Tharizdun- you get the idea). Adventure ideas, hooks, and locations would be included as well. That would pretty much take up most of the sourcebook.
I would aim at doing five sourcebooks: central region, southwest region, northwest region, southeast region, northeast region. Each sourcebook would contain two maps. One would be a full page World of Greyhawk map in muted color, with the area covered in the sourcebook outlined in red and the area itself in full glorious color, a sort of “areas covered by this sourcebook” page at a glance which would be located near the beginning of the book. The second map would simply be a blown up version of this map in fold -out form inserted in the back cover, though this larger version of the map would contain many more details on locations in the various lands and would not show the whole world map, just the region covered in the sourcebook (imagine cropping the red outlined areas on the first map, blowing it up, and then adding detailed names/locations to it).
And lastly, the adventures set in the campaign world.
I’ve always though that while people like one off adventures, they really like module series. The recent “Top Adventures of all Time” (or whatever the article was called) in the latest Dungeon magazine seems to back me up as well. Each year I’d shoot for releasing six adventure modules. Three would be individual stand-alone adventures. The other three would be a module series in the organized along the lines of the classic module series we all know and love. Module series would center more on epic quests and kingdom-shaking events, while individual modules would focus more on fantastical adventures and adventures that take place in exotic locales. This would not necessarily be a hard and fast rule- there might be a module series set in a fantastical and exotic locale or a single module that focuses on a pivotal event. It all depends on how expansive the adventure would be and which form would be best suited to the adventure.
I think that about covers it all. But a final few words need to be said regarding the release schedule of these products. So here it is:
2005/2006/2007 release schedule
2005:
October- product adverts intensify, small section previews in the October Dragon magazine.
November- November Dragon presents a sneak peak at some the World of Greyhawk’s campaign book contents.
December- World of Greyhawk campaign setting book released early in the month in time for holiday shopping. Totally revamped City of Greyhawk map appears in the December Dungeon magazine, along with articles on said city and the standard 3 adventures set in and around its environs.
2006:
January- stand alone adventure
February- The City of Greyhawk and the Central Flaness sourcebook #1
March- part 1 of 3 module series
April- stand alone adventure
May- The Kingdom of Keoland and the Southwestern Flaness sourcebook #2
June- part 2 of 3 module series
July- stand alone adventure
August- The Great Kingdom and the Southeastern Flaness sourcebook #3
September- part 3 of 3 module series
October- stand alone adventure
November- The Barbarian Lands and the Northeastern Flaness sourcebook #4
December- part 1 of new 3 module series
2007:
January- stand alone adventure
February- The Baklunish Lands and the Northwestern Flaness sourcebook #5
March- part 2 of new 3 module series
April- stand alone module
May- ???
June- part 3 of new 3 module series
I like the release schedule in that it follows a set pattern. You will always know what type of product is coming out and when. Nothing ever goes smoothly though in design and production though, so as a general guideline I think this is a very good schedule of releases from both retailer and customer points of view. The 3-part modules might be better grouped more closely together though. With regards to the releases of particular sourcebooks, I think #’s 1 and 5 should be arranged as they are in the schedule for various reasons; the order of the others could changed easily enough to suit the general demand for the regions(web site polls anyone???).
My thanks/condolences go to anyone who fully plodded through my ramblings. :D
----Cebrion
This post responds to the first of his pair above, which envisioned a new Greyhawk hardcover book.
Cebrion mentioned a map and indicated it should be "state of the art." I'm not sure what he meant. I hope that the series that will be published in Dungeon will set a new standard -- not surpassing the Darlene maps but instead representing the Flanaess in a new way that is both visually attractive and useful to spark fans' imaginations. I agree wholeheartedly that this map should be made available online as a password-protected feature of the publisher's website. As Cebrion indicated, such a move would make good business sense for a publisher that values fans' goodwill.
Cebrion then shifted to content, specifying that a general overview of the lands should be accompanied with Greyhawk specific feats and languages. I agree wholeheartedly about highlighting the extant languages and dialects of the Flanaess. While most adventurers should speak the Common-vocca, using the languages that Gygax created helps distinguish and detail Greyhawk campaigns.
I'm less sanguine about including Greyhawk-specific feats. While I enjoyed Erik's article on this subject and some of the feats included in the two GH paladin articles, I believe that adding feats with each book stresses the game system -- in part because new feats tend to escalate power and also because I prefer an integrated game system that can represent well my campaign. Ultimately, if GH-specific feats were included, I hope they would only be ones that represent highly idiosyncratic details of GH, which would be appropriately represented by D&D feats.
Similarly, with the new Complete series, I would want a new GH hardcover book only to feature prestige classes that are not already (or will not be) covered in a Complete book. Alternatively (or additionally), the GH book should detail how the Complete books could be used to represent the Flanaess well. Evaluating Cebrion's suggestions, for example, I wouldn't want to see prestige classes for the "Gnarley Forest Ranger, Thieves Guild Member, [or] Mages Guild Member[.]" In contrast, a Knight of the Hart prestige might be good.
Regarding the gods of GH and their priesthoods, I could see this being a large part of the book. However, this subject (and distinctive GH spells and magic items [however, see below on these kinds of information]) could well constitute a fourth kind of new GH book. (The others are main book, regional source books, adventure modules.)
In other words, ever since FR received such superlative treatment of its gods and priesthoods, I've desired similar treatment for GH. The LGG went some way toward this, but a version of Of Oerth & Altar (the Oerth Journal column) is what I really hope to see. My version of this would nix any deity, avatar, or aspect game rules information and instead feature well designed illustrations -- extending the original notion presented by the old 2e FR hardcover book. In fact, in my version of a new GH book, all illustrations would be of very high (technical) quality, and they would all be well conceived -- from the standpoint of one attempting to represent the distinctiveness and details of the Flanaess.
Upon reflection, I'm unconvinced that magic spells, magic items, or monsters should be included in the main GH book. Instead these might be better presented in the [proposed] regional sourcebooks.
I agree wholeheartedly about the necessity of a well-formatted table of contents, a complete index, and design elements that highlight the book's organizations and facilitate access to its information.
I agree with standardizing formats for the sourcebooks. Enacting such a plan requires that the format be well designed!
The books could be either hard or soft covers with price break even
considerations featuring large.
Regarding the number of sourcebooks, I suggest following the "Cultural and Geographic Divisions" established by GH'98 products. These regions included Old Ferrond, Old Keoland, the Baklunish West, the Bitter North, the Empire of Iuz, the Thillonrian Peninsula, Old Aerdy West, Old Aerdy East, and Isolated Realms. The products' names should probably be changed, but these generally seem to be good divisions -- excepting the final one.
Regarding the maps included in these products, I'd suggest not merely copying the map included in the new GH hardcover book. While we must await what Dungeon publishes, Eric Anondson has shown us how beautiful and informational GH maps can be. In regional sourcebooks, I'd expect to see greater detail. In this respect, the maps included in The Marklands and Iuz the Evil provide a model to follow.
Regarding the structure of the sourcebooks, I'd suggest looking to the old fan article authored by Kirt Wackford, The Geopolitical History of Keoland and also reviewing what Privateer Press has produced to detail its Iron Kingdoms campaign setting. In other words, human (cultural) geography would be one consideration in designing these books. Narrative could also be considered as a way to structure the sourcebooks, i.e. telling "the" story of the region.
I'll end here to see what discussion we provoke.
I basically was putting forth the various ideas that popped into my head in as organized a fashion as I could manage, without actually laying out in very fine detail the content of the products.
I agree with everything you said though, particularly with regard to what should be in which books. With regard to the number of books, I do disagree, as the main problem with doing nine separate books is that by the time the last one comes out, that generation of Greyhawk fans has practically spawned another generation. It simply takes too long. That is a buzz kill in itself. Five regional books released along the schedule I proposed would maintain a heightened level of excitement. 130 pages of fluff balancing 60 pages of hard game impacting rules(plus ten pages of contents, index. legal, etc.) should be enough to cover the noted areas just fine. Any specific key features could be further developed in an adventure that highlights a particular group, location, or feature. Modules will also be that much more anticipated if they have some further tidbits in them that are only briefly touched upon in the geographical sourcebook where they take place. The main reason behind my thinking is that the DM should always know something that the players do not. The other reason for it is mainly aimed at generating interest in players and DM’s as well.
Look at Ivid the Undying for example. Sections of it are overly long and could be more succinctly summarized. Do I like it? Certainly, but I find that it includes some information that is generally not of much use. It seemed there were too many pet projects in there for my complete liking. Save the verbosity for a novel I say. I’d rather have a book that covers a broader area, with slightly less detailed stats and backgrounds for any non-principle npc's. Save something for the DM’s to make their own.
As far as the core book, I just started listing things off the top of my head. Monsters and magic items would be better placed in the sourcebooks. As to prestige classes, I just rattled off examples of previous specialties from prior game editions (Gnarley Ranger for example). I grant you that the list could be a lot more interesting, though Knight of the Hart is one that I’d really like to see a creative write-up on. I’m sure we could all come up with a list of at least 100 proposed prestige classes.
As to feats, I envisioned inclusion of a few new feats, perhaps some that are very campaign specific. I consider the “Spellfire Wielder” feat to be very Forgotten Realms specific. I agree that a whole range of new feats should not be game-breakers or be too expansive. As there are already so many feats collected from various sources in the revised PHB 3.5, I’d not expect there to be too many more added in this section(three pages or less I would guess). A regional languages/feats/equipment list similar to the FR core book (Table. 1-4, p. 30-32) would be very good also. It doesn’t take up much space and it gives a great general overview of regional tendencies. It also goes hand in hand with the added attention given to regional languages I mentioned previously.
You hit the “Deities of Greyhawk” section dead on the head. There’s no need to explain it in further detail.
And as to the maps, we’ll probably be seeing what I meant by “state-of-the-art” in the next four issues of Dungeon really soon.
---Cebrion
However, I chose to adapt the "I" series into the flanaess, rather than have them take place on a seperate continent across the Solnor.
It is workable for Aquaria (as a seperate continent) to fit into the WoG given Frank's work around, and none of it hinders, nor conflicts with people's precious "canon," other than it not appearing as a continent on any official maps of planet Oerth (of which I know of only 1 (map)... which was rather lacking..)
All my AD&D campaign were played within the WoG. I've also bought many other release (and other "worlds"). I've adapted them to my liking. Some are integrated partly or completly in my Greyhawk world. I suppose you've all done it also.
What next for Greyhawk? Many things can come out. What is best for Greyhawk? Even harder to answer. Like many of you, I'm still loyal (or addict) to the first and 2nd Ed. I think that the best thing to get new customers attention is the release of the new Greyhawk maps. Like one other member said (sorry, forgot your name...
), a map is the best thing to fuel imagination.No campaign ever stagnate in time. Timeline development is necessary to create a good campaign world. My first serious gaming group started doing Temple of Elemental Evil, then Scourge, and then Queen of the Spiders. Thereafter, the characters involved themselves in the world politics. They have started war against Pomarj. They've protected Furyondy from Iuz. They've married. Then those char had children. They've designed them as char, and played them. And so on. I'm surely not an exception.
So their actions changed my world of Greyhawk. Every other campaign I've DMed in Greyhawk after was also affected by their actions. I think that some timeline advancement must be presented. I use FtA in my campaigns. When it was released, I didn't change everything in my world. I used the background, and my players lived the Greyhawk Wars. When you are a Bard sitting in the Golden Phoenix in Greyhawk City, hearing rumors of the Iuzian Furyondy invasion, and your father is a High ranking Knight of the Hart, you are concerned... I use adventure based in WoG, then put them during the war. Try making Fate of Istus during the Greyhawk War, and the complexity level of the game goes up!
For now, my "regular campaign gaming" is set during the last days of the Suloise Empire. The character are Suloise. They are good aligned. They see the Empire crumble. They have heard prophecies about the End of Time for the Empire (and my players knows it for real). It is a fantastic game, with high magic being used by different powerful powers...
In fact, like you all, I love the Greyhawk universe. I love history and geography. But what appeals me is the roleplaying. True roleplaying. I have designed my WoG for over 20 years, and still I discover new (and older) adventure hook and background.
Anyway, long live to Greyhawk. Imagination is what is needed for DMs and players alike...
Fearghal