----
From Eric, 2001.
I made contact with Troy Denning at GenCon just a couple weekends ago. I got to ask many questions that had been burning my mind. Afterwards, as expected, I remembered many many more questions which I would have loved to have answered. I made contact again with Troy on a Writers website he is a member of and posted a request on its writers forum to ask Troy some more follow up questions. He politely obliged, here is a compilation of everything I asked and his answers. You might notice that most of his answers are very diplomatic.
Enjoy!
1st: Regarding clerics.
Eric: Athas in the Dark Sun boxed set "has no gods." Clerics pray to the elements instead. There are a few undead creatures which are sustained by their belief in the gods they worshipped from the Green Age (The raaig from the 1,001 Faces of Undeath article in Dragon, and the wraiths of the Crimson Shrine in Undertyr). I know that no material was ever going to be published to declare whether or not gods ever existed on Athas. Could you enlighten how this situation worked for the raaig and the wraith of Undertyr?
Troy: Sorry, I don't think Tim and I are ready to say whether gods ever existed on Athas or not. (We're STILL arguing about it!)
2nd: Preservers and Defilers.
Eric: In the seminar at GenCon you stated how you as an author sometimes find it unavoidable to clash with the "game mechanics" if the mechanics get in the way of the story. The DS Rulebook presented the defiler and preserver as separate and distinct classes. That said, was Sadira's jumping the fence of defiling to preserving and back again the >exception< to the rule, or was her bouncing back and forth from defiling and preserving intended to be the actual way wizards might work?
Troy: It was a very special exception to the rule--probably even unique--due toher experiences at the Pristine Tower.
Follow up to 2nd:
Eric: But what would explain her use of defiling >before< she had the Pristine Tower experience?
Troy: She became a defiler. Any preserver can become a defiler; it's going back that's hard.
3rd
Eric: I remember you said that TSR kept you at arms length from Dark Sun after your initial work. What is your opinion of the "alternate" wizard types that were introduced near the end of the Dark Sun line. The Shadow Wizard that empowers spells from the Black. The Necromancer that empowers spells from the Gray. And the Cerulean Wizard that empowers spells from the Cerulean Storm.
Troy: They sound cool, but I'd have to try them in a campaign to see if I liked playing with them. Probably wouldn't use them in a novel, but who can be sure?
4th
Eric: What was the inspiration (or design goal) for Bards to be masters of poisons and to remove spellcasting ability along with it?
Troy: Can’t remember, sorry.
5th
Eric: Were the para-elemental clerics a concept which you and Tim had planned on, or was that completely a concept introduced by later designers?
Troy: Elemental clerics were part of the original plan. The others weren't my idea.
6th
Eric: What is your opinion of Athasian para-elemental clerics?
Troy: Not gonna go there.
7th
Eric: Was there ever a firm decision (when you and Tim were designing) where on a globe the Tablelands was located? Close to the Equator, northern hemisphere, southern hemisphere... that kind of thing.
Troy: Nope. Originally, there was just going to be the one map, and it didn't matter where it was.
8th
Eric: Was there ever discussion where Athas fit in its solar system?
Troy: Of course, we discussed the implications of having a "dark sun" and what that might mean (and don't ask me to explain it--I can't remember)—but beyond that, not really.
9th
Eric: There was some speculation by fans that Athas was actually a satellite of Guthay.
Troy: Interesting idea.
10th
Eric: Should Athas be considered to be "earth-sized"?
Troy: If it fits the campaign.
11th
Eric: Did you and/or Tim ever sketch out the "Green Age" coastline of the sea that became the Sea of Silt? Or the lake that dried up and became the Ivory Plain?
Troy: Not beyond what are in the boxed set maps.
12th
Eric: Were there other "Champions" that Rajaat made which have not been "documented"?
Troy: Certainly. But even I don't know who.
13th
Eric: Did Rajaat have plans or schemes occurring on Athas outside the
Tablelands? Did his Cleansing Wars spread across the planet or were they limited to a continent or even just a region of a continent?
Troy: It was centered on the Tablelands; how far it spread remains to be seen.
14th
Eric: Sadira's half-sister defiled a pool of water atop the Pristine Tower and a brownish color began to swirl around in it. Was this pool of water a remnant of the original ocean-water that the Blue Age halflings used for their bio-technology creations? Was the brown coloring a hint at the "brown tide" that the proto-halflings fought at the end of the Blue Age?
Troy: Sounds like something I'd do, doesn't it?
After this Troy asked that him and I put a moratorium on Dark Sun questions while he gets back on schedule with his deadlines.
I knew you would all enjoy seeing some of these and I just had to send these along!
Eric Anondson
I figured Sadira to be an actual defiler from the novels.
The rest is a surprise to me.
Thanks!
Some of his responses intrigued me, and influenced my direction while I was on the Athas.org team.
One question I always wanted to get back to was inspired by the GenCon seminar I sat in on. Troy said that one of his favorite races were giants, and he always wanted to explore giants in greater depth. The question I had meant to ask next, before he put the moratorium down, was to have him elaborate on the encounters with Tithian and Agis and the Giants of the Estuary of the Forked Tongue.
So many bizarre things happened there that just felt wierd and called out for greater explanation.
I wish I could remember just what I spoke with Troy about at GenCon. But it was awesome, Troy actually spent nearly an hour answering my Dark Sun question after his seminar! I wish I could remember exactly just what I asked about. A few things still stick in my head. For instance, Troy said that avangions were never imagined in the original development of the setting. That later brand managers insisted that some "good guy" opposite to dragons be tacked on to the setting to lessen the depressing aspect of the world. Troy almost got a disgusted look on his face when Paul Liss and I asked about avangions.
I was kicking my self for not taking notes during this hour.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
One question I always wanted to get back to was inspired by the GenCon seminar I sat in on. Troy said that one of his favorite races were giants, and he always wanted to explore giants in greater depth. The question I had meant to ask next, before he put the moratorium down, was to have him elaborate on the encounters with Tithian and Agis and the Giants of the Estuary of the Forked Tongue.
So many bizarre things happened there that just felt wierd and called out for greater explanation.
Can always add it to the new Troy Q&A.
I wish I could remember just what I spoke with Troy about at GenCon
You must be taken to Athas.org - they have ways of making you think (with a chicken feather and a wetsuit apparently
)+ good to know they werent making a mistake in Dragon Kings when they said there had never been an Avangion on Athas. And then we found out there'd been 4 or 5 of them.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Hey Jon, you didn't find a small excerpt of questions and answers from Tim, did you?
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Speaking of Tim, if you have any contact info for him that is still good please forward it to me, been trying to include him too but Fast Forward is ignoring me, or just too busy.
You must be taken to Athas.org - they have ways of making you think (with a chicken feather and a wetsuit apparently
Heh, Athas.org has me stuffed in a basement for months cranking on early versions of the cleric domains and spell conversions. Of course, my effort was more along the lines of an excessively ambitious re-imagining of the domains. Plus, I was letting my own opinions of the Athasian planes creep into the work. I don't blame them for chucking it and going for something more modestly closer to the PHB. I'm quite familiar with Athas.org's "techniques's". ;)
+ good to know they werent making a mistake in Dragon Kings when they said there had never been an Avangion on Athas. And then we found out there'd been 4 or 5 of them.
I remember this most vividly because Paul Liss's wife is a big time Avangion fan. She had brought a sketchbook of her art she was showing off to other artists at GenCon. She had drawings of Avangions is it that were quite good. After the hour with Troy, we broke the news to his wife about the truth of Avangions and she was crushed. On our drive back to Madison we had a long time to talk over the consequences of the revelations Troy revealed. Paul's wife was in the back and every now and then she'd pipe in that she was so dismayed that Avangions weren't imagined by the creators of the setting.
But heck, they're in canon now. ;)
Myself, I agreed with Troy's opinion of Avangions. "Athas doesn't need angels," he said. Hearing it from Troy solidified it for me, and when I run Dark Sun, I've cut them out. Because I was one of those that irrationally tried to adhere to the original vision of the setting, I spent many hours coming up with a cosmology that fit with what I learned from the hour with Troy, his Prism Pentad, and some of my own personal biases.
Which reminds me, one thing Paul and I learned from Troy that hour, was that the Black and the Gray weren't ever discussed or talked about until Troy started writing the Prism Pentad. They weren't in the original design notes. Their first appearance was in Troy's stories. The Gray showed up as a distinct location when Troy was wrestling with just what an afterlife would have been like in an AD&D world with no gods, for instance.
Oh the trip down memory lane!
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Speaking of Tim, if you have any contact info for him that is still good please forward it to me, been trying to include him too but Fast Forward is ignoring me, or just too busy.
He was like that for me too. I lost the contact info BTW. I only got in contact with Tim through Troy. Tim answered a few questions and I never heard back from him. Fast Forward was exploding into D20 at the time, so I figured his time was being sucked down.
Tim and Troy are members of a group called The Alliterates. Back in 2001 the group had a message board, which I used to get in contact with Troy back then. Looks like the message board there has been removed now. *shrug* Not much more help for you I'm afraid.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Do you remember if you talked about the Champions/Green Age - the whole back story? Im really curious about how much of the history was established from the start, and whether the SK's were originally just powerful defiler/psions independent of each other.
Damn, all interesting. Would love to see what Dark Sun would have been if they'd had 100% power over it.
Yeah, Troy was a little peevied that he was moved away from the setting. He had said that he was a little ticked off that TSR never kept him in the loop on anything. He contrasted his situation with Ed Greenwoood and the Realms. Ed, apparently had been getting free copies of everything TSR published for FR at the time. Troy was told he would get nothing of Dark Sun TSR published and was left to buy the stuff himself. A good reason to have sore feelings.
Tim of course, was brought back every now and then to author new accesories, like Dragon Kings, and the never-seen Dregoth Ascending and the Dead Lands expansion.
[edit] Just a reminder, Athas.org was given the unfinished, unedited, manuscripts of these with the explicit instructions that they had to be converted into 3.x rules, and could then be given out free of charge[/edit]
Do you remember if you talked about the Champions/Green Age - the whole back story? Im really curious about how much of the history was established from the start, and whether the SK's were originally just powerful defiler/psions independent of each other.
Well, Question 13 and 14 of my interview were some questions that might give some insight. I know we asked about Hamanu and the Lynn Abbey books. All that I remember was that Troy said that he felt that Lynn Abbey captured the "feeling" of a Dragon King the best of the authors that came after him. He didn't have an opinion on what she did with Hamanu. I think we asked about the real status of Kalak, but I can't be sure, and I certainly don't recall what the answer was.
I did ask him a world-designer question about the Green Age. During the hour I asked him if Athas' Green Age was supposed to be identical to a Medieval Era of Earth, like Greyhawk, Krynn or Faerun, with regards to animal life. He said no. No cows, no horses, etc. He admitted that this broke down as things went along. Errors crept in and editors missed things. Like Hamanu taking on the visage of a "lion" for instance. That was a literary choice to get readers get a certain idea. But there were not supposed to be any lions in Athas, now or then. ;)
I asked about whether halflings were intended to be the creator race all along, he said yes, that was the intention from the brainstorming sessions. Well, sort of. The first Dark Sun was a virtual rip off of Barsoom, not a single recognizable race. The management told him, Mary Kirchoff, and Tim to go back and put in elves and dwarves and dragons and halflings. They did, with the twists we all know and love, and they decided at that point that halflings would be the creator race.
But the era of the Champions, I can't recall that we asked much about those guys beyond the above. Who knows if it will percolate to the surface of my brain someday though. ;)
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Please post anything else you remember.
The old hands might already know this stuff but im sure theres a few of us that havent heard any of this before :D
Tim of course, was brought back every now and then to author new accesories, like Dragon Kings, and the never-seen Dregoth Ascending and the Dead Lands expansion.
Actually, Kevin Melka is the one listed as the designer of DA. Tim isn't mentioned in the credits.
Hey Jon, you didn't find a small excerpt of questions and answers from Tim, did you?
No. Sorry.
"[edit] Just a reminder, Athas.org was given the unfinished, unedited, manuscripts of these with the explicit instructions that they had to be converted into 3.x rules, and could then be given out free of charge[/edit]"
And that's why we love Athas.org. Free stuff!
No cows, no horses, etc. He admitted that this broke down as things went along. Errors crept in and editors missed things. Like Hamanu taking on the visage of a "lion" for instance. That was a literary choice to get readers get a certain idea. But there were not supposed to be any lions in Athas, now or then.
I just saw the addition of an athasian bear in ToA, even though we already have the klar.
Why not have an athasian lion, using the same guidelines used to create the athasian bear?
A suggestion for the Monster Bureau...
The management told him, Mary Kirchoff
Ah, that is what her name was.
Muwhahahaha!
As for the leopard, I don't recall seeing one outside of random encounter tables, same with lions. Worst, lions were not supposed to exist on Athas at all, an absence of communication caused by the removing of certain designers from the work being done on DS: making Hamanu the "Lion-King" was an error, there was not supposed to be lions on Athas, just like there are no house cats, dogs or horses.
Since an athasian bear was added to ToA (a pretty good one at that) due to the mention of a bear in PP4, the same could be done for an athasian lion, a kind of mutation of the smaller, more gentle specimen of the past, which gave its name to Hamanu.
Yes, there are jaguars on Athas. They are nearly extinct in the wild and most of their numbers are domesticated in the breeding pens of Draj.
As for the leopard, I don't recall seeing one outside of random encounter tables, same with lions. Worst, lions were not supposed to exist on Athas at all, an absence of communication caused by the removing of certain designers from the work being done on DS: making Hamanu the "Lion-King" was an error, there was not supposed to be lions on Athas, just like there are no house cats, dogs or horses.
Since an athasian bear was added to ToA (a pretty good one at that) due to the mention of a bear in PP4, the same could be done for an athasian lion, a kind of mutation of the smaller, more gentle specimen of the past, which gave its name to Hamanu.
There's Taraskir as well. A lion headed giant.
As I said, the first Dark sun Box is the original cannon, and there Lion in the encounter table of that book.
And yet, the designer of the setting never intended for Lions to be there, which is mentioned in the interview, thus making your point not as solid as you'd like it to be, I think.
As I said, the first Dark sun Box is the original cannon, and there Lion in the encounter table of that book.
It just makes me sick how much T$R with its 2E didn't dwell on the details at all: you always had those funky non-flavor monsters thrown into random encounter tables, for any setting.
Now a days with ultra recent settings like Eberron, you get every facet controlled or specifically left open for the DM to do what it wants with it. The addition of Eberron-specific background information for the new monsters in MMIII is a very conscientious touch on the part of WotC. Details details.
Worst, lions were not supposed to exist on Athas at all, an absence of communication caused by the removing of certain designers from the work being done on DS: making Hamanu the "Lion-King" was an error, there was not supposed to be lions on Athas, just like there are no house cats, dogs or horses.
Since an athasian bear was added to ToA (a pretty good one at that) due to the mention of a bear in PP4, the same could be done for an athasian lion, a kind of mutation of the smaller, more gentle specimen of the past, which gave its name to Hamanu.
Ok! So Hamanu was called the LION king and in the Green age, there seemed to have been a god-like figure with a lion head.
Does that absolutely have to mean there were lions in the green age roaming the lands? I dont think so. The writer could have said that Hamanu had a Brovick head but what is a brovic and did they exist in the green age? So he wrote a LION head just so we, as readers, could picture its head in our mind. He never said/wrote there were real lions on Athas. Not that I can remember anyway.
Ok! So Hamanu was called the LION king and in the Green age, there seemed to have been a god-like figure with a lion head.
Does that absolutely have to mean there were lions in the green age roaming the lands? I dont think so. The writer could have said that Hamanu had a Brovick head but what is a brovic and did they exist in the green age? So he wrote a LION head just so we, as readers, could picture its head in our mind. He never said/wrote there were real lions on Athas. Not that I can remember anyway.
Like the Minoean High Priest during the Minos Dynasty in Crete who was called the Minotaur, even if there is no evidence of a real minotaur ever walking this earth...
even if there is no evidence of a real minotaur ever walking this earth...
...unbeliever!Like the Minoean High Priest during the Minos Dynasty in Crete who was called the Minotaur, even if there is no evidence of a real minotaur ever walking this earth...
Thats a good point. I'm still along the lines of thinking there were lions, bears, horses, etc... but either died off or evolved/mutated into something else. It all depends on what a DM wants in their campiagn. If they want smurfs whose to say their wrong for wanting them?
Hmmmmmm.... Gargamell, Smurf Stomper, 16th Champion of Rajaat?
... making Hamanu the "Lion-King" was an error, there was not supposed to be lions on Athas, just like there are no house cats, dogs or horses.
Just wondering, didn't I see cats in the original familiar tables? Of course that was probably not meant to be there either... :D
They weren't supposed to be there. How hard is it to understand that TSR was being very, very stupid during the period Dark Sun was around, until TSR's collapse?.
Calm down, Xlor! I was merely pointing it out. I've understood a few hundred threads ago.
It's sad, but there are serious problems when people who have no idea what they are doing, and yet feel that they are somehow helpimg, meddle in something they should have left plain alone.
And maybe that's an understatement.
In my campaign, the player already fought Lion and one Spotted Lion with Wild talent.
Anyway, I think the Lion fit in the Dark sun world. (there Tigonne, so why no Lion???).
In my campaign, the player already fought Lion and one Spotted Lion with Wild talent.
I think there should be some type of "Athasian Animal" template that can be added to any animal to give them a DS feel. I don't mean the Phrenic or Dire, but something that encompasses a little of both. It would add chiton and spines and a few psionic powers. Or, maybe just over laping the two ( phrenic & dire) templates would accomplish the same thing, but I think that would be a little to powerful and over the top.
Anyway, I think the Lion fit in the Dark sun world. (there Tigonne, so why no Lion???).
In my campaign, the player already fought Lion and one Spotted Lion with Wild talent.
I always thought that the tigonne was a athasian replacement for the feline race. It sutted me well.
Anyway, I think the Lion fit in the Dark sun world. (there Tigonne, so why no Lion???).
In my campaign, the player already fought Lion and one Spotted Lion with Wild talent.
Here are the DS replacements:
horse: kank, crodlu
bull(s): inix
tractor: mekillot
domesticated farm animals: aprig, carru, sygra
real-world big cats: tigone, tagster, kirre
real-world domesticated cat: kivit
dog/wolve: ruve, rasclinn
crow/carrion bird: kes'trekel
bulldog/vivious guard animal: jhakar
coyote: lirr
jackal: zhackal
bear: klar, athasian bear
Note: the jaguar is also an athasian animal but is not an athasian version of the MM creature
Here are the DS replacements:
Good job. Those fit pretty well IMO.
I guess whoever put cats, lions and gorillas in DS didn't feel like giving much thought in creating completly different animals.
While we're at it, what would be a good replacement for deer?
PB
While we're at it, what would be a good replacement for deer?
Erdlu? Wild kanks?
As to the "lion", we could have a tigone/tagster/kirre variant with a sandy colouring, and call that an "Athasian Lion".
While we're at it, what would be a good replacement for deer?
Mmm, I don't know from ToA's list but I remember finding some new dire animal with weird antlers in another MM that fit well an athasian elk or deer, but found in temperate zones (where is that on Athas I have no idea...).
I'll try and find it and edit my post for the answer.
[EDIT] Found it, in fact them, but they're lame. Sorry.
Erdlu? Wild kanks?
Nah, erdlu are more like giant wild chickens.
Wild kanks are not agile enough for the woods... By the way, I was thinking of a deer-like animal for the Crescent forest. I guess I'll just create one!
Here are the DS replacements:
horse: kank, crodlu
bull(s): inix
tractor: mekillot
domesticated farm animals: aprig, carru, sygra
real-world big cats: tigone, tagster, kirre
real-world domesticated cat: kivit
dog/wolve: ruve, rasclinn
crow/carrion bird: kes'trekel
bulldog/vivious guard animal: jhakar
coyote: lirr
jackal: zhackal
bear: klar, athasian bear
Note: the jaguar is also an athasian animal but is not an athasian version of the MM creature
I used Osquips as Athasian rats. They seem like a good DS version of the common rat.
From 3 level to 10 level
Not all monster have been killed, sometime the party was defeated and had to flee. Some monster also had home-made modification or level added. We played 2e edition
2 Human guard (when they escaped from the slave caravane, Sand waste)
1 Ant Lion (in sand dune)
1 Spotted lion (with Wild talent, one of the player made a cloak with the Lion hide, Sand waste)
1 Snake (normal Athasian cobra, Sand waste)
6 Ankheg (in a village, Sand waste)
1 Human (fire cleric,village, Sand waste)
1 Wild Inix (Stonny barren near Tyr)
5 Gith (near Tyr)
1 Minotaur Lizard (big horned lizard, killed one player with a critical horn hit, near Tyr)
8 Lions (ambush in a canyon near Tyr, they had to protect a caravane made of 10 Kank, that one of the best battle we ever saw in 10 year of rpg playing)
4 Human Templar (Tyr)
1 Sandling (in Under Tyr)
4 Athasian Wraith (Under Tyr, crimson shrine)
3 Giant rat (with Wild talent, Under Tyr)
1 Tari (with the rat, Under Tyr)
1 Mul gladiator (in the arena, Tyr)
1 half-giant (in the arena, Tyr)
1 Thri-kreen (in the arena, Tyr)
1 elf (in the arena, Tyr)
3 Giant scorpion (in the arena, Tyr)
4 Lion (the same as above, they walked again in the same canyon, Tyr)
1 Normal giant lizard (stonny barrens near Tyr)
5 Gith (Sand waste)
6 Anakore (Sand waste)
4 Bhrog (Sand waste)
1 Sylk wyrm (near Altaruk)
1 Belgoi (near Altaruk)
1 Basilisk (near Grak pool)
1 Gray horror (in a old ship in the Forked tongue)
A pack of Floater (they didnt fight, they just saw them)
1 Giant snake (Grak pool)
1 Braxat (wiped half of the party, near Altaruk)
1 Silk wyrm again (the same one, near Altaruk)
4 Gith (Sand waste)
1 Sand cactus (Sand waste)
8 Elf raider (Silver spring)
1 Human Tyrian Templar with 6 guard (Sand waste)
2 Banshee Dwarf (in a abandonned mine south of Dragon bowl)
1 Basilisk (stonny barrens near Urik)
2 Wyvern (near Dragon bowl, wiped half the party)
1 Undead Bhrog (Urik arena)
5 Giant Hornet (Dragon bowl near Lake pit)
3 Carnivorous plant (Dragon bowl, Lake pit)
1 Water elemental (Water Temple, in the Lake pit, wiped half the party)
5 Kestrekel (Dragon bowl)
Gith (near Urik)
Elf raider (Fort courage)
10 Fire beatle (Smoking crown mountain)
3 Fire lizard (Smoking crown mountain)
Braxat (Sand dune near Lake of golden dream)
5 Borrowing beatle (Ringing mountain)
3 Giant scorpion with wild talent (Ringing mountain)
4 Ettin (Ringing mountain)
1 Crystal spider (Ringing mountain)
6 Athasian eagle (Ringing mountain, like small version of Roc (6') with wild talent)
Giant scorpion (Ringing mountain)
4 Braxat (the party ran away)
Lion (Ringing mountain, near Forest ridge)
Carnivorous plant (Forest ridge)
Giant Spider (Forest ridge)
Snake (Forest ridge)
5 Trin (wiped half the party)
1 Behir (Forest ridge)
Halfling tribe (Forest Ridge)
4 Athasian sloth (Forest ridge)
6 Wyvern (Ringing mountain, wiped half the party)
*teleport*
Tyr guard (Tyr)
3 Mul (Arena, Tyr)
Half-giant (Arena, Tyr)
Halfling (Arena, Tyr)
6 Human (Arena, Tyr)
2 Tarek (Arena, Tyr)
1 Braxat (Arena, Tyr)
1 Antloid soldier (Arena, Tyr)
1 Beasthead (eagle) giant (Arena, Tyr)
4 Half-giant guard (Tyr ziggourat)
1 Senior Templar (Tyr ziggourat)
3 Rock golem (Tyr ziggourat)
Sorcerer king Kalak (Tyr ziggourat)
That it. I think I missed a couple, but most of them are there.
Guess I missed what this list was for again...
I think to prove that lions do exist on Athas since his DM had them in his campaign...
I think to prove that lions do exist on Athas since his DM had them in his campaign...
Ah, well. I've DMed before and had illithids in my campaign, doesn't mean they officially exist in Athas either, heh.
;)
The interview is up in the articles section on athas.org.
Woohoo!
Thanks Jon for rediscovering it and getting it up there.
Regards,
Eric Anondson (Intrepid Athasian investigator)