| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1HuginSep 26, 2004 13:04:43 | I've been looking at converting the Wrath of the Immortal rules for Immortals into 3.5E (along with some others that have been pondering it), but have been wondering how the Epic rules would affect such an attempt. I don't have my own copy of Epic but have borrowed one from time to time to check it out. I've never had the rules used in a campaign either. So, I was wondering if anyone here knows the rules or has even used them that might be able to help out creating an Immortal Class level progression chart? My thoughts (currently) are to use the Epic rules for characters on one of the paths to Immortality; otherwise level 20 is the maximum for normal characters. Opinions greatly appreciated. |
| #2havardSep 27, 2004 4:21:33 | I've been looking at converting the Wrath of the Immortal rules for Immortals into 3.5E (along with some others that have been pondering it), but have been wondering how the Epic rules would affect such an attempt. I don't have my own copy of Epic but have borrowed one from time to time to check it out. I've never had the rules used in a campaign either. I think the Epic Rules need to be integrated with any upcoming Immortals rules. That missing was IMO the biggest weakness with Deities and Demigods. I don't really like the idea of having a maximum level for PCs, but I think Immortals should have available the Epic Character abilities in addition to whatever other powers they would have. Problem with Epic though, is that the rules haven't been updated to 3.0 (or have they?). Håvard |
| #3HuginSep 27, 2004 22:36:32 | by Havard I hope I didn't mislead you with the thread's title. By "versus", I was referring to how these sets of rules would relate to each other and how they differenciated from each other. What I am looking for is how would the Epic rules change the way we have to veiw rules for Immortals (or does it at all). The reason that I ask this is because it shouldn't happen where a mortal character under the Epic rules is on par with an Immortal. As I see it, the WotI made it clear that Immortals were significantly more powerful than the greatest single mortal (otherwise why go through the trouble of seeking out immortality). It is with this in mind that I'd like to see to it that rules for Immortals have them significantly more powerful than the rules for mortals (even Epic level ones though they would obviously be flirting with the scope of power the Immortals have). I believe I understand you, Havard, that when you say we should integrate the Epic rules into rules for using Immortals that you mean that is the point with which we should start to build from (and if I'm wrong please tell me; as you said in another thread, we here don't take ourselves too seriously, and I agree! :D ). The problem that I have is that I don't know the Epic rules very well at all. Maybe I should just buy it but I don't imagine I'd use it for anything other than to build the Immortal rules. I don't really like the idea of having a maximum level for PCs, but I think Immortals should have available the Epic Character abilities in addition to whatever other powers they would have. I could see new Immortals using Epic level feats and such, and with the special qualities of an Immortal, that would still make him much more powerful than an Epic mortal. As I think this through while typing, maybe it won't be as difficult as I first thought. Roughly convert the qualities of the Immortals from WotI and see how they stack against an Epic character. Fudge with it and add in feats and we'll have a starting point. hmmm... I think I'll start working on this in draft and see how I do. Any other thoughts or insights could prove very useful if anybody could help. Problem with Epic though, is that the rules haven't been updated to 3.0 (or have they?). That's a good question! Thanks Havard! |
| #4CthulhudrewSep 28, 2004 2:30:12 | The reason that I ask this is because it shouldn't happen where a mortal character under the Epic rules is on par with an Immortal. As I see it, the WotI made it clear that Immortals were significantly more powerful than the greatest single mortal (otherwise why go through the trouble of seeking out immortality). It is with this in mind that I'd like to see to it that rules for Immortals have them significantly more powerful than the rules for mortals (even Epic level ones though they would obviously be flirting with the scope of power the Immortals have). Just weighing in here briefly, as I've been reading this thread with interest, but don't currently have a lot of time to participate to the extent I'd like. It seems to me that the lower level Immortals (Initiates, Novices, etc.) were pretty closely matched with your highest level PCs- a balanced party of maxiumum level PCs (spellcaster, healer, fighter, backstabber) could probably, with proper preparations take on a single low-level Immortal or two- though not without taking severe damage (and likely casualties). The primary advantage the Immortals have is a) their power usage (which was altered considerably, and not in a very interesting way IMO, from the Gold Box set), and b) their Immortality. Mortals kill them on the Prime, they come back and live to fight again- taking suitable precautions this time. When the Immortals begin to gain levels, then they do gain considerable advantages over their mortal opponents. Anyway, long story short, I personally don't feel too bad if a really powerful mortal PC is able to fight and possibly defeat a relatively weak immortal. Something suitably epic about that, and there is certainly room for such escapades in the mythology of our own real world. In any case, the rules as they currently stand, I feel, are fairly adequate in conveying this. It should only require some minor tweaking to make ourselves a set of "Immortal" rules from the existing two sets of rules. The only area in which the Deities & Demigods book didn't adequately compensate is in anticipating more fully what the rules of the Epic Level Handbook would have in it. They still seem to be very compatible to me, though. I believe I understand you, Havard, that when you say we should integrate the Epic rules into rules for using Immortals that you mean that is the point with which we should start to build from (and if I'm wrong please tell me; as you said in another thread, we here don't take ourselves too seriously, and I agree! :D ). The problem that I have is that I don't know the Epic rules very well at all. Maybe I should just buy it but I don't imagine I'd use it for anything other than to build the Immortal rules. I could see new Immortals using Epic level feats and such, and with the special qualities of an Immortal, that would still make him much more powerful than an Epic mortal. As I think this through while typing, maybe it won't be as difficult as I first thought. Roughly convert the qualities of the Immortals from WotI and see how they stack against an Epic character. Fudge with it and add in feats and we'll have a starting point. hmmm... Simply by giving the Immortals Epic levels in their base classes, in addition to the Divine Feats they get from Immortal levels should suffice. A little bit of tweaking to some of those (and add a few new Divine Feats). I did a little bit of preliminary work on that some time ago, though I didn't really get too into it. One thing I recall for sure that I did was to extend the Immortal levels beyond Divine Rank 20. I divided the ranks roughly into: DR 1-5, Initiate; DR 6-10, Celestial; DR 11-15, Empyreal; DR 16-20, Eternal; DR 20+ Hierarch. I think that's what I had, anyway. I'll try and find the notes that I had on this and post them for your perusal here on the list. Anyway, the way I see it, a lot of people's complaints about the ELH is that it creates characters that are so darned powerful that even the gods can't stand against them, which is true to a point. From what I can tell, though, you'd have to get your PC to a really high level (50+, probably) and if your campaign is at that level, you've probably got some balancing issues to worry about besides the gods being able to put the smackdown without taking a breath. Besides, what's good for the PC is just as good for the immortals, so they should have some comparable Epic levels themselves. |
| #5HuginOct 10, 2004 13:02:39 | I'm not too sure how I managed to miss your last post, Cthulhudrew, but sorry it took so long. And thanks for the input. However, it did leave me with a couple of questions: In any case, the rules as they currently stand, I feel, are fairly adequate in conveying this. It should only require some minor tweaking to make ourselves a set of "Immortal" rules from the existing two sets of rules. The only area in which the Deities & Demigods book didn't adequately compensate is in anticipating more fully what the rules of the Epic Level Handbook would have in it. They still seem to be very compatible to me, though. To clarify, the two set of rules are in the Deities & Demigods and the ELH? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to even lay eyes on the first one so I've no clue what they're like. Simply by giving the Immortals Epic levels in their base classes, in addition to the Divine Feats they get from Immortal levels should suffice. A little bit of tweaking to some of those (and add a few new Divine Feats). I did a little bit of preliminary work on that some time ago, though I didn't really get too into it. This certainly seems the direction we all want to take if we're to try creating these rules. My only question though is about the Divine feats; are they in The Deities book or elsewhere? One thing I recall for sure that I did was to extend the Immortal levels beyond Divine Rank 20. I divided the ranks roughly into: DR 1-5, Initiate; DR 6-10, Celestial; DR 11-15, Empyreal; DR 16-20, Eternal; DR 20+ Hierarch. I think that's what I had, anyway. I'll try and find the notes that I had on this and post them for your perusal here on the list. Is Divine Rank also from the Deities book? If you could find out what you had accomplished already and post it, that would be great. As for some comments, I do agree whole-heartedly with everyone as to the power levels of the Immortals and where to begin (i.e. the Epic levels), all we need is a place for us to begin if we are going to actually get the ball rolling. [Time; it wouldn't be so precious if we didn't have so little of it, eh?] |