What and where is Sigil? And other planar crossroads.
In the Great Wheel/Ring it floats atop the spire in the Outlands. In the FR planes it is it's own separate plane like Cynosure. However, according to Rich Sigil also exists at the same time in both the FR tree and in the Wheel/Ring so technically you can explore the planes of the Wheel/Ring by heading to Sigil since it exists in all places since it is a planar crossroads.
It's a huge city and if you picture a wagon wheel turned on its side or the inside of a tire, the buildings are built on the inside part of the wheel or tire. The only way to get into it is by a portal and the Lady controls all portals into and out of it and if you anger her she can shut every one of them down and basically kill off every one inside that needs food, air, and water to survive because air comes in from the Elemental Plane of Air mostly, and food and water is shipped in from the outer planes, etc. Some water also comes from the Elemental Plane of Water as well.
The Lady of Pain (this is not the same person as Loviatar) "rules" over it and she has the power to lock all deities (yes even AO) out of it. If you anger her, harm her city, or her dabus, she has the power to flay the skin off your bones with her shadow or maze you, which sends you to the Ethereal plane in a specially built maze she constructs just for you. She usually doesn't speak either, and if she does it's through her dabus's, which are a race that build and repair Sigil and they talk in picture symbol's called rebus.
The old Planescape material has the most info about Sigil, the Lady, and what ever else you need to know about that city. Also the Planar Handbook for 3.5 has info on Sigil, the Lady, and a few of the NPC’s that have been converted from the older material.
Richard Baker posted on 1/5/04 at 4:34 PM: “No, I think it's a valid reference. I see no reason why Sigil's existence is at odds with the FR cosmology. It's the city that is nowhere and everywhere--more a reflection of Sigil's nature than Faerun's, I think.
(Specifically, in the FR cosmology, Sigil sits off in the same sort of cosmic corner as Cynosure. It's a unique plane.)”
Richard Baker posted on 1/23/04 at 12:31 PM: “My answer: Yes, it is the same Sigil.
It might seem bizarre that Sigil, a feature of the Great Wheel cosmology, has anything to do with the FR cosmology. But, as I said before, I think this contradiction is a reflection of Sigil's nature, not FR's nature. Sigil is the place from which you can get to anywhere else.”
Furthermore, Rich has said that the Infinite Staircase that is mentioned in the Player’s Guide can also be used to move between the different cosmologies. So this leaves three ways that we know of to cross between them. Sigil, the Staircase, and the Shadow Plane.
Richard Baker posted on 5/20/04 at 12:30 PM: “My belief is yes. Certainly it's our intent that there's some ability to connect Toril to other cosmologies through places like Sigil or phenomena like the Infinite Staircase.”
If you want some answers about the old Planescape material, WOTC has a board for such that can be found below.
I don't think that it is actually in the Realms, but is connected to it by portals. According to Rich it's the same Sigil no matter where you are from. So presumably it is still atop the spire in the Outlands of the Great Wheel. But there are portals in the Realms that can take you there. Sigil is just one of the ways in addition to Shadow and the Infinite Staircase that links the many universes together.
Actually, there are many, many links to Toril from the Great Wheel - this is the Planescape board; Faerun doesn't get it's own cosmology here!
*wanders off muttering about sodding clueless...* ;)
However, according to Rich Sigil also exists at the same time in both the FR tree and in the Wheel/Ring so technically you can explore the planes of the Wheel/Ring by heading to Sigil since it exists in all places since it is a planar crossroads.
insert trumphet sound
A rather tall man in a bright orange cloak walks up to you and hands you a small bronze statue, and a golden shovel. The statue depicts a humorous looking man in cape in tights.
"Ahem. Hear ye, hear ye! I doth hereby present you (insert name) with the prestigious "Le ciel est azur" award. We commend your uncanny excellence in stating the patently obvious. Thank you good sir! And keep up the good work."
[/i] This berk gives the clueless a bad name...[/i]
It might seem bizarre that Sigil, a feature of the Great Wheel cosmology, has anything to do with the FR cosmology.
That is not bizarre, just a fact since Planescape.
Kilamar
So it is actually in the new realms cosmology, again according to Rich. It is just a seperate plane off by itself while at the same time being a top the spire in the Outlands in the Wheel/Ring.
And Sigil also exists in FR's new planes because in Faiths & Pantheons, which is a 3e FR book, a portal to Sigil is mentioned in the adventure in the back. There has been nothing since that book to say that info is false.
So again just to make sure we are clear. Sigil does exist in both cosmologies but it is one and the same.
insert trumphet sound
A rather tall man in a bright orange cloak walks up to you and hands you a small bronze statue, and a golden shovel. The statue depicts a humorous looking man in cape in tights.
"Ahem. Hear ye, hear ye! I doth hereby present you (insert name) with the prestigious "Le ciel est azur" award. We commend your uncanny excellence in stating the patently obvious. Thank you good sir! And keep up the good work."
[/i] This berk gives the clueless a bad name...[/i]
And I have no idea why you posted this exactly. Most of the FR posters don't understand how the planes work since many of them are new or the new FR Cosmology is totally different.
Go easy, people. The Realmers can't help being clueless. We should pity them, really.
*chinks the champagne glass and glances at the FR clueless as they overtake the position of mockery formerly held exclusively by the clueless of Krynn*
Gray: From Rich, as you can see in the above reply. "(Specifically, in the FR cosmology, Sigil sits off in the same sort of cosmic corner as Cynosure. It's a unique plane.)”
No it is actually in the new realms cosmology, again according to Rich. It is just a seperate plane off by itself while at the same time being a top the spire in the Outlands in the Wheel/Ring.
And this is also fact because in Faiths & Pantheons, which is a 3e FR book, a port to Sigil is mentioned in the adventure in the back. There has been nothing since that book to say that info is false.
So again just to make sure we are clear. Sigil does exist in both cosmologies but it is one and the same.
Hmmm... well, I don't feel strongly about it either way, I have no problem really with it being in 2 places at once if that is how they decide to go.
However, I don't see how (and this could just by my own failing) it makes sense to say it is part of the Great Tree when you cannot access it from Faerun's Astral Plane. If I understand correctly, Sigil can only be accessed by portal. Sigil does not need to be physically part of the FR cosmology if it has portals that connect it to Faerun. Sigil could maintain it's physical presence in any universe and be just as connected to Faerun. It doesn't really even have to be connected to the Wheel for that matter as you can't get there from the Wheel without a portal. Some have even speculated it may not really be atop the Spire.
In fact if it were connected to the great tree then that would be kind of weird because it would mean you could go into the astral and maybe see the place where the plane was connected to the Astral but not actually be able to get in to it by any means. You'd have to go somewhere else and find a portal.
Of course that is not much different from Cynosure really. But then again I have always seen Cynosure as a special case existing outside the Astral, maybe in the ordial even. It occurs to me Ao probably has a home plane that no one can get to similar to Cynosure, or for all I know he lives in the secret second layer of Cynosure.
I know Rich said what he said about Sigil but I wonder if he thought it through all the way. Also I have to ask if the Faith's and Pantheons mention of Sigil said it was actually part of the tree or if there were just portals someplace that connected to Sigil.
If it were a separate Sigil clone for the Tree then that would be one thing and I would agree it would need to be attached to the tree, but then since Rich has said it is the same Sigil then you don't have to worry about it being attached to the tree, it can stay atop the spire in the Wheel and all remains hunky-dory.
The paradox doesn't bother me really, I could live with it if they decide it really is on the wheel and part of the tree at the same time. I'm just pointing out that you don't even need to create the paradox in the first place, it works just fine as is.
Ultimately it matters not if Sigil is part of the cosmology because the only way to get there is by portal and Faerun remains connected by many portals to Sigil regardless of whether Sigil is attached to the tree or not.
The paradox doesn't bother me really, I could live with it if they decide it really is on the wheel and part of the tree at the same time. I'm just pointing out that you don't even need to create the paradox in the first place, it works just fine as is.
And this is what they have decided, as it is clearly said above.
Shrug then go ask Rich about it again, but that is what the 3/3.5e FR designers have decided. It is one and the same and it exists both in the Tree and in the Wheel/Ring at the same time. In the Wheel/Ring it rests a top the Spire while in the Tree it is a seperate plane connected to the Tree just like Cynosure.
And also why is this thread on this board? It is about FR's new planes, it should be on the FR board.
The Sigil of Forgotten Realms is for those who want to play Plane Hopping from the City of Doors to places like the Barrens of Doom and Despair, the Supreme Throne, the House of the Triad, etc.
Sure, the Supreme Throne may suspiciously resemble the Gray Waste while the House of the Triad resembles a bit much like Arcadia....
But the fact remains that it's FR's Sigil more than D&Ds.
I imagine Primes are a bit less clueless viewed but given FR has always made provisions of other worlds, its probably not the case that they're still too nice.
Whenever my player's visit the "new Sigil" (as they are now) I make it a point to state that the Great Wheel is just clueless junk and everyone knows its a Great Tree :-)
The best way to summarize my interpretation of this is the fact that you shouldn't consider the Sigil of the Outlands to be the same one.
Except for the fact that Rich Baker pretty much says exactly the opposite.
Unless you make some adjustments,it just makes no sense
The best way to summarize my interpretation of this is the fact that you shouldn't consider the Sigil of the Outlands to be the same one.
The Sigil of Forgotten Realms is for those who want to play Plane Hopping from the City of Doors to places like the Barrens of Doom and Despair, the Supreme Throne, the House of the Triad, etc.
Sure, the Supreme Throne may suspiciously resemble the Gray Waste while the House of the Triad resembles a bit much like Arcadia....
But the fact remains that it's FR's Sigil more than D&Ds.
I imagine Primes are a bit less clueless viewed but given FR has always made provisions of other worlds, its probably not the case that they're still too nice.
Whenever my player's visit the "new Sigil" (as they are now) I make it a point to state that the Great Wheel is just clueless junk and everyone knows its a Great Tree :-)
That has to be the biggest load of
I've ever read. The 3.5 FR cosmology is a disgusting mockery. And there is only 1, one, uno, a single Sigil that has portals that connect it to the Realms.Which goes against everything that's been established about Planescape
Considering the fact that we're discussing the Great Tree, it means that you've already effectively thrown the planar mechanics of Planescape out the window.
Not that I'm sure exactly how it "goes against everything" about Planescape, anyway (the particular Sigil comments, I mean). There has always been in one Sigil that connected everywhere, so the Sigil in the Great Tree being the same one in the Great Wheel is one of the few things that I think was a GOOD decision on the part of the 3E FR's team's cosmology decisions.
And what was the point of the thread if you are just going to "adjust" Rich Baker's answer, anyway? Where were you going with it?
I'm saying that it probably works better to consider the two seperate planes of existence or perhaps "different layers" of Sigil. If you don't think that works (it would fit nicely both) I think its certainly better. I'm happy as a clam Sigil exists in FR but I'm eager to see the Great Wheel divorced from at least one Planescape interpretation because I never liked it but like to use Sigil in my FR games.
I have personally always disliked the Great Wheel since it felt extremely limiting vs. the multitude of the Great Tree (abet power focused). All we need now is the confirmation there are ALOT of non-power ruled planes and this will be even better for my FR/Planescape games.
And this is what they have decided, as it is clearly said above.
Shrug then go ask Rich about it again, but that is what the 3/3.5e FR designers have decided. It is one and the same and it exists both in the Tree and in the Wheel/Ring at the same time. In the Wheel/Ring it rests a top the Spire while in the Tree it is a seperate plane connected to the Tree just like Cynosure.
And also why is this thread on this board? It is about FR's new planes, it should be on the FR board.
Pardon me Kuje for respectfully disagreeing with you. I do not think it is very clearly determined at all.
I am not sure who you mean by "they." So far only Rich has made his views known that I know of. Rich may have decided it but (please correct me if I am wrong) it is not published anywhere so I take Rich's words on the boards to be an advisory opinion until published in an official product.
Rich's opinion is always very wise and informed and holds considerable sway and is probably a good indication of what the official canon will be when it is officially in print, but still not 100% official until published.
I am just playing the part of Regis Philbin and asking "is that your final answer?" My sense of it is that he just gave his gut opinion off the top of his head and hasn't run it past the other designers. I could totally be wrong on this but my feeling is that upon reflection he might consider that Sigil doesn't need to be in the Realms for there to be portals between Sigil and the Realms.
I am very much in favor of it being the same Sigil by the way, I don't care for the idea of the Tree having a separate/alternate Sigil just for itself. That is why I prefer the idea that the portal in the Temple in F&P is a portal to the Great Wheel Sigil.
By the way, the mention of Sigil in the Faith's & Pantheons book only states there is a portal that leads to a city called Sigil. The section I read is not determinative of whether Sigil is or is not a part of the Great Tree cosmology. I don't think you can quote F&P as a source that Sigil is part of the Tree.
Kuje you have a very good point that these are the Planescape boards and in the Planescape campaign setting Toril is still part of the great wheel. With that in mind any discussion of the Tree probably is more approrpriate to the FR Magic Deities & Cosmos board. I don't see any harm in talking about it here but If mention of the Tree is upsetting to the Planescape crowd, I don't see why we couldn't take the conversation over to that board.
I am just playing the part of Regis Philbin and asking "is that your final answer?" My sense of it is that he just gave his gut opinion off the top of his head and hasn't run it past the other designers. I could totally be wrong on this but my feeling is that upon reflection he might consider that Sigil doesn't need to be in the Realms for there to be portals between Sigil and the Realms.
Then as I said, go ask him yourself. However his replies are CLEAR it is the same freaking Sigil but it exists in two places at once. Gods! He also spaced his replies about two weeks apart so he didn't just "put it together of the top of his head or reply with a "gut feeling."
I have personally always disliked the Great Wheel
* Gray Richardson quietly yet with greatest possible speed relocates himself outside of the blast radius of the fireball that he senses is about to go off in the vicinity of Charles Phipps. * ;)
"Charlie, look out! Incoming!" (he shouts from a very far distance)
I gotta warn you that expressing negative opinions about the Wheel on the Planescape boards is about as wise as walking into a biker bar and shouting out that Harley Davidsons suck.
DIEE!!
Just FYI
Unless you make some adjustments,it just makes no sense
It's not supposed to make "sense." It's a city that exists in a place where the proximity of the Spire has rendered everything around it into absolute nothingness. It's above an infinite spire somewhere beyond this nothingness. You can see it from just about anywhere in the Outlands, despite it being infinitely far away and within an eerie void. From Sigil, on the other hand, the Land is invisible. In matters of gravity, magic, and form the city is an anomaly in its environment. And that's just in Planescape.
It's perfectly in keeping with this if in the Forgotten Realms campaign Sigil exists in two contradictory cosmologies and geographies simultaneously. In fact, I'd expect nothing less. Even if I don't accept that the Realms' Tree exists (and I don't, at least not as such) I still have no trouble accepting that Sigil exists simultaneously in many different cosmologies.
The planes are made of many things: belief, spirit, elements, matter, proto-matter, ectoplasm, emotions, myths, ideals, and archetypes. Logic is not usually one of the things the planes are made of, in either the Wheel or Tree. Even in places like Mechanus, logic is more a side effect than a fundamental building block.
For a planewalker, an overreliance on logic is a considerable handicap, and quite possibly a deadly one.
Am I to be denied an opinion because I posted it verbatim here?
'Fraid so. Ironically, it's the inevitables that have decreed this. This is strange, since as beings of Law they ordinarily are strong supporters of logic, and indeed they have a nasty habit of executing those who violate the logic they intend to impose on the planes of existence. However, in this case they have made an exception. Imposing logic on Sigil would mean defying the will of the Powers of Creation themselves, and even the inevitables don't want to face the wrath of the mediators of Mechanus. Yeah, they involve themselves in that sort of thing. At least, as long as the inevitables in question intend to come back home.
Face it, no one has ever confirmed that it is Sigil that you see floating on top of the Spire. For all we know it could just be that somebody dropped his or her (or its) bagel and it got stuck up there. If it is infinitely far away, so by all logic you shouldn't be able to see it as anything more than an infintesimally small point. You can see it, though, so logic has gone straight out the window and it is impossible to tell how big that hovery thing with the hole in it is. Be careful what assumptions you bring to an argument or you may read meaning into a phenomena that has none.
My point is that if Sigil exists lurking in the shadows of the FR tree completely disconnected from Faerun's Astral, then it can be in exactly the same place as if it is hovering in a void someplace disconnected from the Planescape Astral.
It occurs to me Ao probably has a home plane that no one can get to similar to Cynosure, or for all I know he lives in the secret second layer of Cynosure.
Actually it is just upstairs :D Or maybe his parents' basement.
One Cage to rule them all.
When on the FR boards, I assume the 3E cosmology. I've given up mocking the Great Tree at every opportunity - it won't change anything and nobody wants to read the same complaints over and over again. That being said, when on the *Planescape* boards, I assume the 2E cosmology, as that is the most recent canon for the setting. When on these boards, the 3E FR cosmology can be discussed, but it should not be considered anywhere near canon. It is, as one planar has pointed out, yet another reason the Clueless are called "Clueless."
I'm not even really sure why this discussion is happening on these boards. As far as I can tell, this is a debate as to where Sigil exists in the 3.x FR cosmology. That should go to the FR boards.
That was why I said this earlier. So I ask and say again, Charles why did you start this thread here? It's FR related because it talks about the new FR planes and those planes really don't have anything to do with Planescape.
It is appropriate to talk about Sigil on this board.
Your FAQ itself directed him to this board. He probably hasn't learned yet that the Tree can be a sensitive topic on this particular board.
In Charles's defense, Kuje, It sounds like he was delighted to see info in your own FAQ about Sigil being part of the Realms cosmology. Looks like he was just excited about it and wanted to share his exuberant joy.
It is appropriate to talk about Sigil on this board.
Your FAQ itself directed him to this board. He probably hasn't learned yet that the Tree can be a sensitive topic on this particular board.
Except the FR cosmology that my FAQ talks about doesn't belong here either since it isn't Planescape. If any thing this thread either belongs on the FR boards or the main planar boards, as many of us have said already.
So it all comes round back to you, like some sort of... Great Wheel.
Kuje is really Unity-of-Rings!
:D ;)
"For Duty and Deity" is a great Planescape/FR crossover in my opinion.
So I consider this relevant personally.
Also I'm interested in the possibility we might see the effect FR gods have on certain factions and what factions might be present in the Great Tree's planes.
Is the Harmonium a major force in the House of the triad?
Planescape is the only setting to treat planes as "real places." So development of the FR planes with Planescape material is now a possibility and I'm ectastic about it.
By the way, I'm happy to say as a True Baatezu that your fire is absorbed by magic resistance!
BHAHAHAHHAAH!
So development of the FR planes with Planescape material is now a possibility
The only FR planes development I want to see is that WotC is dropping them and going back to the Great Wheel.
(Unlike Graz'zt, I haven't given up mocking the Not-So-Great Tree at every oppurtunity.)
(Unlike Graz'zt, I haven't given up mocking the Not-So-Great Tree at every oppurtunity.)
You've got good company then ;)
Praise to her!
*Finds himself mazed*
SHAVIT!
In any case, I happen to like the Great Tree because it seperates deity's realms from the planes of the alignments and allows for greater variety. I don't see what the appeal is honestly for all deity's of a certain alignment sharing a plane.
I think its much better for an infinite variety.
One of my favorite places: The Hinterlands. Entire kingdoms can pop up literally out of nowhere!
The Great Wheel cosmology connects a number of outer planes to Oerth.
The Great Tree connects a number of other outer planes to Toril.
Several of the outer planes of the Tree are just layers of the planes of the Wheel. Some aren't.
...
So, it's like you have two different Astral planes, one that is ring-shaped and one that is tree-shaped. There are probably other astral planes as well. I predict there are twelve infinities of astral planes.
The true cosmology is Shadow. There is only one Shadow.
So, it's like you have two different Astral planes, one that is ring-shaped and one that is tree-shaped. There are probably other astral planes as well. I predict there are twelve infinities of astral planes.
The true cosmology is Shadow. There is only one Shadow.
Actually the planet of Toril has four Astrals or Astral like planes that we know of because each continent has thier own astral plane. Kara-tur has one. Maztica has one. Faerun has one. Zakhara has one. Each of them are seperate and different from the other and none of them can be access via the other.
"Yep, infinitely bland."
Seriously, an infinite layer just means they'res more of it. I know its capable of being MORE but I prefer just making them seperate planes of existence.
I don't see what the appeal is honestly for all deity's of a certain alignment sharing a plane.
I think its much better for an infinite variety.
They don't have to, but they tend to gravitate towards the plane that matches their alignment. There's pantheons whose members tend to associate based on that membership rather than absolute alignment.
They reduced options, eradicated half the flavor and made a farce of internal consistency. Yep, that's better for infinite variety as you say. *sigh*
I think though that the Great Tree is more fun to adventure in because Bane is on a different plane than other Lawful evil deities and hold absolute power over them.
I still again contest that the "Wheel" is too restricting.
It's a matter of taste but my Planescape games failed EVERY time with my players until I had them running in the Tree. I don't know what it is but somehow it works better for them
The "flavor" of the Realms had always been that the planes were largely dominated by the will of the deities themselves. I admit, they did do a MAJOR retcon.
I think though that the Great Tree is more fun to adventure in because Bane is on a different plane than other Lawful evil deities and hold absolute power over them.
I still again contest that the "Wheel" is too restricting.
It's a matter of taste but my Planescape games failed EVERY time with my players until I had them running in the Tree. I don't know what it is but somehow it works better for them
I think that's the key right there. You have to use what works better for you and your group. The Wheel suits a lot of people just fine, others prefer the great tree, I know lots of people who like the new Eberron cosmology, while some might like to custom tailor their cosmology, and others might like the myriad planes of beyond countless doorways.
It is after all just a game and the hallmark of a good game is that it should be fun for all involved.
That's especially what I loved about the Manual of the Planes book. It had lots of options for customizing your cosmology to something that worked for you and your campaign.
Certainly its better than Churchhill, Hitler, and Stalin in Germany.
No offense, but do you honestly believe if you attract the attention of Bane on the Nine Hells that you're surviving? Each plane being the embodiment of a deity and its will provides a better system personally even if they are the masters of said plane.
Like Azoun is master of Cormyr, Arthur is master of Britain...doesn't mean its not fun to adventure in either
So, it's better to have planes where there is one absolute ruler on each plane? That's MORE variety? That's like living under Hitler in Nazi Germany and saying, "Oh, the variety!"
Here's your Godwin point.
You've lost the argument.
No offense, but do you honestly believe if you attract the attention of Bane on the Nine Hells that you're surviving? Each plane being the embodiment of a deity and its will provides a better system personally even if they are the masters of said plane.
That's why we have distinct deific domains within the larger planes of alignment. Each deity has massive control within that domain, and it needn't even resemble anything on its plane at large as it reflects the will of the deity. For instance, Set's domain in Baator was a hot, dry desert and IIRC it was on the layer of Stygia which was mostly glaciers and freezing oceans.
When that way of handling it works perfectly, and in almost the same way, I see no need beyond the ego of a single world's pantheon, to ret-con the setting to remove all of the larger multiverse surrounding what had always been those deific domains, etc.
Moving on, if you were in the Nine Hells and NOT in another deity's domain, Bane could just as easily smite you as if you were a bug.
And as Shemmy said, there were deific domains on each individual plane. That's a great opportunity for roleplaying, if you ask me. By saying completely isolated planes are better, it's like saying every country in Faerun would be better if it was completely isolated from each other except for rare cases, and within their domain, the King/Queen had absolute rule and could kill with a thought. Where the heck is the open/middle ground for adventurers?
Actually, that sounds rather like Ravenloft... Only without any actual methodology behing its planning.
Anyway, I don't think this has a good answer to it. I don't like the tree at all- it's too isolationist, and ignores the idea of other worlds, and the pantheons of the three other continents on Abeir-Toril. If you can rationalize it, go right ahead; I'm sticking with what works for me.
I do think that Sigil should be above the infinite spire, at the theoretical hub of the Great Wheel- and even if Toril has new planes, you should be able to get from Waterdeep to Grayhawk via Sigil, if you know the path. Making Sigil just a random bubble without a lure like that cheapens it I think.
In the end though I think I'm gonna have to side with Gray on this one really. One of the great charms of MotP was all the options- and the option to create more options.
Actually, I found it slightly more believable. Other worlds are abundant in FR, they just exist in space as opposed to different dimensions.
You can also introduce Vecna, Boccob, etc, but they'd occupy their own dimensions.
I think though that honestly the relationship between planes isn't well handled with the "realms within Realms" bit. Set either has a fantastic effect on the Lairs of Hell around him...or he doesn't.
Different planes means basically that each deity has a reason for ignoring others while those that share layers I think should at least have some ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of others
That was part of the real fun of Planescape - the questioning of divinity.
Set either has a fantastic effect on the Lairs of Hell around him...or he doesn't.
He does, mostly in his rivalry with Levistus, the lord of the layer his realm exists in. Levistus is slowly shrinking the realm, while Set is plotting to turn his realm into a plane in its own right. Green Ronin's Legions of Hell/Book of Fiends also has two diabolic nobles working for Levistus, at least in name, who guard the borderlands between.
This is true across the multiverse. Gods are rarely able to ignore the other gods and planar rulers. That's what makes the planes fun. A cosmology where gods from multiple pantheons are forced to interact is more dynamic, more full of conflict and intrigue.
In a cosmology where every god gets a unique plane, there is much less reason for them to involve themselves with the multiverse at large.
Next thing you know, Kakabel, you'll have convinced me that there actually is a point to the multiverse. I award you 10 points. These points may be redeemed for fabulous merchandise absolutely nowhere, but the fact of the matter is you should be damn proud to have them.
Wait, I'm failing my sense motive check here, is that praise or sarcasam?
praise
That one. I think you did a really good job of explaining the FR/PS dichotomy in Planescape terms.
That one. I think you did a really good job of explaining the FR/PS dichotomy in Planescape terms.
Ahh, okay. Thanks :D
They know an infinite number of planes exist. They just list the Realms that they have confirmed in existence. Frankly, I'd say they know far more planes than the average planar who lumps them all into general territories.
They'll know more domains, but less actual planar substance. See a primer would see things like you do, as in more real estate if there's more planes, maybe thats true in the material, maybe, but this isn't the material. The planes are about belief, and pigeon holeing your belief into what is proposed by the so called gods of Faerun only suits in limiting your view on what beliefs are existant and possible within the planes.
For example there's no god of plastic unicorn figurens on Faerun, but this realmer wants to worhip the inherint divinity within plastic unicorn figurines (yes this is a silly example, no I've never had a character or controlled a NPC who worshiped plastic unicorn figureines) if this character dies knowing only what realmers know about the planes he or she will go to where his or her subconsicous thinks it should go, the city of the faithless since there are no gods to direct the belief in the divinity of plastic unicorn figureines. But in Planescape one could found a whole philosophy on platic unicorn divineness, and perhaps create their own cult/religion/philosophy on it and as a matter of consensus this character would go to the plane that best represented what he or she thought of as the ideal of plastic unicorn figurines.
So in essence, there's more options for a planeshift spell in the realms, but there's a hell of a lot more opportunity for substance, political powerplays, and belief spin sessions within PS cosmology.
The Great Wheel of standard D&D cosmology is mostly just a collection of planar connections linked through two planes: Sigil and the Outlands (or Plane of Concordant Opposition). In the standard (non-Realms) cosmology, the Great Wheel and all of its associated Outer Planes, including Sigil, are connected to the various Prime Material planes through the Astral plane. The Prime Material plane is coexistant with the Ethereal and Shadow planes; the Ethereal connects the Prime Material to the Inner Planes, while the Shadow plane connects to "places unknown" as far as I can remember. Which, of course, can (and does) include distant Prime Material planes.
If you really want to get to the Realms from some other cosmology, Sigil is one way to go. It's called the "City of Doors" because it has a portal to every plane, in every cosmology... at least in theory. And yes, the Lady controls those portals. The only creatue type that are absolutely forbidden from using those portals (and entering Sigil) are Deities; so, in essence, it's the Lady of Pain that keeps Deities from influencing planes outside their cosmology (which is why FR deities aren't recognized or worshipped in Greyhawk, for instance).
why FR deities aren't recognized or worshipped in Greyhawk, for instance).
Yet Lolth is known on both words, as are Moradin, Gruumsh, and many other nonhuman deities.
There are even reports in Oerth's northern wastes of cultists of Loviatar.
Waukeen, a goddess of the Realms, escaped her enemies during the Time of Troubles with the help of Celestian, a god of Oerth, and Graz'zt, a demon somewhat more active on Oerth than he is in the Realms.
Wee Jas, a Suel goddess worshipped on Oerth, was reportedly allies with the Torilian goddess Mystra before her most recent death.
The Infinite Staircase, which touches Oerth in a number of places, begins in the realm of the Torilian goddess Selune. And could she be the same as Celene, the personification of one of the moons of Oerth?
Thinking of Oerth and Toril as seperate multiverses is difficult if you want to include all - or much - past continuity.
Since you interpret them that way, the gods could use the Plane of Shadow or the Astral Plane to move between these two worlds.
I'm not even really sure why this discussion is happening on these boards. As far as I can tell, this is a debate as to where Sigil exists in the 3.x FR cosmology. That should go to the FR boards. Rich Baker's input, while potentially canon for FR has no authority on Planescape related material. According to Planescape canon, there is only one Sigil, Arvandor is part of Arborea, Lolth lives in the Abyss, Demogorgon is a deity, and the Astral only goes to the Outer Planes.
I concur, but given that this mess is on the PS forum, I feel I have to add my two coppers.
What, exactly, is the point of the City of Doors, in particular, and the Infinite Planes, in general, if you go off and start making different versions of them, since they are supposed to be connected to every Prime world one way or another (hell, even Athas, which you can't reach by Spelljamming and is a very issolated world can be reached, with effort, from the planes). What is this? Sliders? "Well, we have Sigil A on the Great Ring, which reaches every Prime world one way or another, then we have Sigil B on some sort of tree, also reaching every Prime world on way or another. It seems the two Ladies of Pain hold high tea and get together to discuss the high points of kicking out the factions and turning Aoskar into gibblets, and the Fated now have to consider the philosophical ramifications of screwing your dimensional double for person gain, while the Bleak Cabal just points to the whole mess as further proof that there is no point to the multiverse. The Dustmen seem as apathetic as ever on the situaution, and the Society of Sensation is giddy with all the new posibilities."
Also, Kuje, a link to your FAQ, if you don't mind?
It's bothering me somewhat, but I can't seem to pinpoint the page in F&P the Sigil reference is on, though I know I've seen it before. Can someone tell me exactly where in the book it is?
Also, Kuje, a link to your FAQ, if you don't mind?
It's in Faiths & Pantheons in one of the mini adventures in the back.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=230866
It's in Faiths & Pantheons in one of the mini adventures in the back.
I'm guessing you mean the "Places of Worship" chapter, which is a layout and background of three temples; not adventures. That said, that comprises aout thirty pages of the book. Can you tell me which page specifically has the reference?
They don't exist any more officially. WOTC wrote them out because "there was too many deities in FR." Now all the fey creatures worship the human nature deities. See pages 220 and 221 of Faiths & Pantheons.
I believe the relevant portion of the pages you refer to is the last sentence of page 220: "Any deity not listed on the Monster Deities table or in Chapter 5 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting does not exist on Toril."
However, we know for a fact this is not true, since the above sentence is contradicted completely by a later book: Player's Guide to Faerun. Pages 164-165 talk about other planes linked to Toril, referencing the cosmologies of Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and Maztica. It also mentions the gods of those places...so clearly they do exist on Toril, making the statement from F&P incorrect.
As an aside, Kuje, from your FAQ:
I believe the relevant portion of the pages you refer to is the last sentence of page 220: "Any deity not listed on the Monster Deities table or in Chapter 5 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting does not exist on Toril."
However, we know for a fact this is not true, since the above sentence is contradicted completely by a later book: Player's Guide to Faerun. Pages 164-165 talk about other planes linked to Toril, referencing the cosmologies of Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and Maztica. It also mentions the gods of those places...so clearly they do exist on Toril, making the statement from F&P incorrect.
Ok that's nice but this doesn't belong here.
And I wrote that before the Player's Guide and yes that is correct because it's talking about the deities of Faerun since the other continents were even mentioned in the FRCS and so of course thier deities existed. However, you are partly right since Serpent Kingdoms added a few back in. And the Sigil thing is on page 161 in room P3.Ok that's nice but this doesn't belong here.
Well, the thread with your FAQ was locked. :embarrass
and yes that is correct because it's talking about the deities of Faerun
No, it's talking about the deities of Toril, not Faerun. See the above quote.
And the Sigil thing is on page 161 in room P3.
Thanks!
Well, the thread with your FAQ was locked. :embarrass
No, it's talking about the deities of Toril, not Faerun. See the above quote.
Thanks!
Email or PM's work. And the FAQ's are locked for a reason.
And no again it's not wrong since again the FRCS mentions those continents so again those deities have to exist. It's not my fault the game designers can't distinguish what they mean in F&P when they say Faerun or Toril. Hells Magic of Faerun is like that also, one section says Faerun then another says Toril.