First, the science part:
Okay...in the WotL book...in the map of the Blood Sea...the whirlpool is spinning in a clockwise direction. Now, this of course would be backwards. Drains and the like in the Northern Hemisphere spin clockwise...in the Southern Hemisphere they spin counter-clockwise. The same for high pressure systems. Low presure systems (ie, tropical storms) are the opposite.
Now, since the whirlpool is actually a drain into the Abyss, and not a creation of the Maelstrom...technically, the water should travel in a counter-clockwise direction and the storm should be spinning clockwise (since Krynn is in the southern hemisphere). I would think this would cause some major problems with navigating this sea.
Anyway...so it seems to me that every map since the beginning has been incorrect on the direction of the whirlpool (they all have them going clockwise).
Now for those of you, "This is fantasy, get your science out of here" folks, I have a story reason for it as well (straight from Chronicles):
When the Percheon leaves Flotsam for Kalaman, and the whirlpool is clockwise...what possible reason did Maquesta Kar-thon have for sailing straight for the center of the whirlpool? You'd just sail up the coast...staying out of the Maelstrom's winds, and riding the Tightening Ring currents north. It'd be fast, and safe.
However, if it's counter-clockwise...you'd travel north-east. If you wanted to get around quicker (which they did) you'd ride closer to the Maelstrom, just along the edge of the Nightmare Sea, maybe even bringing down teh sails. Then, you'd ride the currents around to the north-west side...at which point you unflurl the sails, and catch the northerly winds on the west side to get you out of the Nightmare Sea and into the Tightening Ring...at which point you could easily get yourself out. Now, sailors who were really good could ride even closer...and they know precisely when to let those sails out so they can break free (kinda like the Kessel Run of Star Wars). This was always my impression as to what Maquesta and her crew were trying to do when Kitiara showed up, and Bertrem turned the ship straight into the Heart of Darkness...at which point there was no breaking free on the west side...and they went under.
Anyway...so that's my thoughts on it. I'm sure it was just originally that no one thought about the fact that a whirlpool would be opposite in the southern hemisphere (much like the moon phases look backwards compared to the northern hemisphere...which has always been incorrect in Dragonlance). But, it'd be nice to have this fixed...especially since Chronicles doesn't seem to make much sense (unless someone can explain it better to me) with a clockwise whirlpool.
Any takers? :D
Okay...in the WotL book...in the map of the Blood Sea...the whirlpool is spinning in a clockwise direction. Now, this of course would be backwards. Drains and the like in the Northern Hemisphere spin clockwise (I know from experience)...
Coriolis acceleration is very susceptible to outside forces. Drains and toilets are so small, and other forces in them so large in comparison, that it just doesn't matter - it's too dependent on external forces acting on the system.
In the Maelstrom, it could very well be that there is another force at work - an ocean current, a submarine volcanic vent (wouldn't surprise me at the site an asteroid hit the crust at high speed!), something else that is overcoming the Coriolis forces in the water.
Or maybe it's magic. Or something. ;)
I thought that the maelstorm of the Blood Sea stopped during the Chaos War and into the 5th Age?
Yeah, but Brim is talking about the Fourth Age, during the War of the Lance.
In the Maelstrom, it could very well be that there is another force at work - an ocean current, a submarine volcanic vent (wouldn't surprise me at the site an asteroid hit the crust at high speed!), something else that is overcoming the Coriolis forces in the water.
Okay. Fair enough. In fact, that helps me to justify why it is clockwise instead (for some reason I thought it was difficult to overcome the coriolis effect and still maintain a stable vortex).
Now...what about Chronicles...why if the vortex is clockwise, did they sail northeast out of Flotsam instead of just going north?
I wonder, is this because of the natural coriolis effect? Probably not...but it was an interesting thought I wanted to share. heh heh
You know...as an interesting side note to this...when people get lost in barren un-recognizeable landmarked areas, and you can't get a point of reference, they generally travel in a circle.
I wonder, is this because of the natural coriolis effect? Probably not...but it was an interesting thought I wanted to share. heh heh
Actually, I think this is due to circles being more psychologically pleasing that most other shapes. Natural instinct revolves (no pun intended) around the circle. Defensive measures taken by herds or packs are always in circles. That and circles are just for fun to walk. Walking a distance and taking a sharp right angle turn just seems kind of illogical.
Actually, I think this is due to circles being more psychologically pleasing that most other shapes.
Well...we'll see. Someone should do a study on herds and people getting lost and see if they travel clockwise in the north and counter-clockwise in the south. ;)
Well...we'll see. Someone should do a study on herds and people getting lost and see if they travel clockwise in the north and counter-clockwise in the south. ;)
Haha, if I was still a psych major, I could have probably put together a study on this sort of thing.
Oh well, back onto topic, so if I take my sink down to the southern hemisphere, the water will still drain clockwise? I really find that to be kind of unlikely. There must some other physics reason as to why water drains the way it does than just the Coriolis effect.
Oh well, back onto topic, so if I take my sink down to the southern hemisphere, the water will still drain clockwise? I really find that to be kind of unlikely. There must some other physics reason as to why water drains the way it does than just the Coriolis effect.
Well...all things being equal...it should be...
You know what, I've been doing a little research today...I have no friggin' clue what a drain is supposed to do. I just read a website that is the opposite of what I thought it was all supposed to do. So...my understanding is that things tend to "turn" to the right in the northern hemisphere and left in the southern hemisphere. But...whatever. I don't suppose that part matters anymore.
The real question is...why did Maquest travel into the middle of the Blood Sea...supposedly against the currents (according to the maps)?
As I see it, the maelstrom on maps do show the whirlpool going clockwise.
If it were on earth, i think it would spit counter-clockwise.
As for an uber scientific explaination, Krynn spins in the opposite direction as compared to earth, and thus, the maelstrom spins correctly? :-)
Krynn's universe generates a torque which is in the opposite direction in relation to earth's universe, so the maelstrom spins correctly?
I simply mark it as one of the unexplained forces of the universe, and I don't think the maelstrom truly drains the water. something in the maelstrom revolves generating the whirlpool, and can produce the direction that's indicated on the maps.
Here's something to swirl your noodle. If the maelstrom, and the whirlpool is caused by water draining into the abyss, calculate how much water is being drained based on the speed and motion of the maelstrom. Next, assuming that the surface of Krynn is 75% water, and Krynn is earth-sized, calculate the rate in which the ocean sea level falls each year. Then, calculate how many years Krynn has before it loses it's water supply.
Weldon
As a side note: Oh my gods. Will the moons look backward from the southern Hemisphere as compared to the northern Hemisphere?????
I simply mark it as one of the unexplained forces of the universe,
Or, even better, an unexplained force of the gods.
As a side note: Oh my gods. Will the moons look backward from the southern Hemisphere as compared to the northern Hemisphere?????
No, they're the same. (Although my joke-detector is on the blink this morning, so I might be missing something...)
Brimstone's right regarding directions - hurricanes rotate counterclockwise (in the north) because the airflow is an updraft at the eye. To conserve angular momentum, counterclockwise rotation will occur. Drains (the Maelstrom at the Blood Sea is draining water, right? It's not just a big swirl of water?) should work in the opposite way, I would think - angular momentum must be conserved, and the water is flowing down. The Maelstrom is big enough to be affected by coriolis acceleration, but there still could be any number of things at work to change its direction (ocean currents, the shape of the sea bed, etc.)
It doesn't have to be rocket science. Whatever hand-waving needs to happen to make it work in your own head. :D
- Cliff Claven, I mean Clark
There must some other physics reason as to why water drains the way it does than just the Coriolis effect.
You're right - Any initial currents in the water, the shape of the sink, imperfections in the drain, and a dozen other factors. Coriolis acceleration is by far overwhelmed by factors like this in small items like a bathroom sink or a shower. (Edit: I'm getting so far off topic it isn't even funny - I'll stop with the science geek thing now.)
- Clark
Or, even better, an unexplained force of the gods.
I oftentimes think that we tend to apply science a bit too much to our fantasy, although it can be fun to delve into the scientific side of things from time to time.
What would be interesting would be a gnome who makes it his life quest to try to understand why the Maelstrom spins backwards. Perhaps Krynnish folk have their north and south mixed up. ;)
What would be interesting would be a gnome who makes it his life quest to try to understand why the Maelstrom spins backwards. Perhaps Krynnish folk have their north and south mixed up. ;)
It'd be interesting if it were still spinning in any direction at all.
Cheers,
Cam
It'd be interesting if it were still spinning in any direction at all.
It would make for a good pre-Chaos War character, though.
There are times I wish the Maelstrom was still there. I think, though, that to reintroduce it would be a bit cheesy. You would have to do it just right, and I just can't see it happening right now. Had it happened with the gods returning to the world...maybe. That's even a bit iffy.
No, they're the same. (Although my joke-detector is on the blink this morning, so I might be missing something...)ark
Incorrect this time Clark. :D
From the Northern Hemisphere, First Quarter looks like the letter "D" but in the Southern Hemisphere (because you are looking at the moon from the other direction) it looks like the letter "C." And vise versa for Last Quarter.
Interesting, huh? I figured that out AFTER I had completed my moon chart/calendars and I had to go back and change them all! That was frustrating.
Oh...and Weldon...if Krynn spins the other direction, why does the sun still rise in the east? ;)
I oftentimes think that we tend to apply science a bit too much to our fantasy, although it can be fun to delve into the scientific side of things from time to time.
Okay...but we're still missing the key point here:
If the maelstrom is spinning in a clockwise motion, the why did Maquesta sail out towards the center!?! Why not just hug the coast (out of site of the coast, of course, to avoid any Dragonarmy attention). But it makes no sense for her to sail towards the middle...or even to sail that far east...since the currents should take her due north (roughly).
Incorrect this time Clark. :D
From the Northern Hemisphere, First Quarter looks like the letter "D" but in the Southern Hemisphere (because you are looking at the moon from the other direction) it looks like the letter "C." And vise versa for Last Quarter.
OK, that way... I though he meant opposite phase. Yes, you're right, and it's actually a gradual change - more extreme at high latitudes, less so at lower. Depends how you look at it, really... (ba dump bump)
Okay...but we're still missing the key point here:
If the maelstrom is spinning in a clockwise motion, the why did Maquesta sail out towards the center!?! Why not just hug the coast (out of site of the coast, of course, to avoid any Dragonarmy attention). But it makes no sense for her to sail towards the middle...or even to sail that far east...since the currents should take her due north (roughly).
I would wager it's because they didn't have specifics in mind, but rather went with what would make for the better story. Truth be told, though, heading north around Saifhum and across the top to Kalaman is probably safer than heading up along the coastline where there's bound to be Dragonarmy vessels from Ogrebond all the way to Hag's Dirk and Jennison.
Maq knows how to handle the minotaurs and the sea pirates. She's not a stranger to the route to Saifhum and Karthay.
Cheers,
Cam
OK, that way... I though he meant opposite phase. Yes, you're right, and it's actually a gradual change - more extreme at high latitudes, less so at lower. Depends how you look at it, really... (ba dump bump)
Well...so long as you are above the Tropic of Cancer (or below Capricorn) it shouldn't switch (roughly...the moon isn't perfectly on the solar plane). But, you're right, if you're between those two, it'd switch throughout the year (it'd be one way during the summer and another in the winter).
Maq knows how to handle the minotaurs and the sea pirates. She's not a stranger to the route to Saifhum and Karthay.
I'm just having a hard time figuring out how you could even sail that way...these currents, I would think, have to be strong...and the perpetual hurricane's winds would be against you as well.
Ah well, I suppose it probably really doesn't matter that much...I was just hoping to get an explination in my head that didn't involve switching the rotation of the maelstrom.
Or, even better, an unexplained force of the gods
PG. 250 in Amber and Ashes.
Chemosh speaking to Mina. It states that without the wrath of the gods to stir it the Maelstorm eventually stopped.
So you are correct in that it was a force of the gods.
(Edit: I'm getting so far off topic it isn't even funny - I'll stop with the science geek thing now.)
Hey...I'm just happy I'm not the only one anymore. I used to discuss stuff like this Weldon a lot...but he's not around as much as he used to be. I don't feel so lonely anymore.
(I guess I'm of the rare breed that I like a bit of science in my fantasy...it makes it that much better, for me)
But the gods churning the Maelstrom works for me, too. I prefer not to think that it's draining away at all - rather, it's like the gods have a very big stick and they're swirling the waters with it endlessly, with Istar in the very middle.
Cheers,
Cam
Chemosh speaking to Mina. It states that without the wrath of the gods to stir it the Maelstorm eventually stopped.
How interesting, then, would it be if it occasionally changed directions?
But the gods churning the Maelstrom works for me, too. I prefer not to think that it's draining away at all - rather, it's like the gods have a very big stick and they're swirling the waters with it endlessly, with Istar in the very middle.
I guess because of the Atlas I always thought it was draining into the Abyss...and I just justified that by saying somewhere on the planet, the Abyss was spewing it back up. (there's got to be some sort of freaky ocean stuff going on to keep Taladians and Ansalonians away from each other for 6,000 years ;))
Another interesting question is...where does all that lava from the Lords of Doom go?
Clark scares me with how much he knows about the stuff.
But the gods churning the Maelstrom works for me, too. I prefer not to think that it's draining away at all - rather, it's like the gods have a very big stick and they're swirling the waters with it endlessly, with Istar in the very middle.
I think it was therapy for one of them after the Cataclysm. "Okay," says the Therapist of the Gods, "Now, I think we need to think of some constructive ways to express our frustration and anger at Istar. Yes, I know the big rock was very satsifying, but it wasn't very constructive, was it? No. I know - let's take a great big stick and swirl the water around! Get that anger and aggression out!" A sort of court-ordered anger management exercise, maybe.
I guess because of the Atlas I always thought it was draining into the Abyss...and I just justified that by saying somewhere on the planet, the Abyss was spewing it back up. (there's got to be some sort of freaky ocean stuff going on to keep Taladians and Ansalonians away from each other for 6,000 years ;))
Another interesting question is...where does all that lava from the Lords of Doom go?
Now see, that does go into the Abyss. That's how Sargonnas heats his winter home.
Cheers,
Cam
heh. i fear what will happen when brim turns his gaze towards taladas and tries to figure out the lava sea
That one hurts my head way too much. LOL! (especially after watching a show about how a similar lava flow may have cause the...uh...well, one of the Great Extinctions on Earth). I looked at it once in the terms how it formed (the bullet hole theory)...but that didn't work out so well. Weldon and I did work on it once wondering if the impact on Taladas caused the earthquakes felt the next morning in Istar. He even contacted a geologist professor at...uh...some northwestern college...I think in California or something. Anyway...he did it to get numbers on shockwaves through the magma and how that works.
Anyway...long story short...we got it to work out that the earthquakes felt before the Ansalonian Cataclysm were caused by the impact on Taladas. Unfortunately, the calculations assumed Krynn was the same size as the earth, instead of the moon.
Wow...I'm such a nerd....
yeah. logic who?
see, the center of the lava sea has a tower which links to the plane of elemental fire, but at the same time, dude, its a GIANT PIT OF MAGMA THE SIZE OF LUNITARI.
Isn't there a shard of the Greygem at the top of that tower?
That could be a massivly powerful item that maybe the Thorn Knights would be looking for (if they knew it existed).
Perhaps the Taladas trilogy or game book will go into this (as they both will be post-WoS, correct?)
How interesting, then, would it be if it occasionally changed directions?
New info!
You know...there is presedence for the Maelstrom stopping and starting periodically (ala Charybdis) from the Dragonlance four part comic "Arena of Istar." In there, the Blood Sea's maelstrom periodically calms (I think it was blamed on Zeboim...). So, if that's the case, perhaps, it changes direction when this happens. That would make the Nightmare Sea and Heart of Darkness very dangerous places indeed if the sailors could never be sure exactly which way it was spinning at any given time...
Oo...I like this idea. Official or not...I think that's how I will treat it from now on (in my mind's Dragonlance). :D
That would make the Nightmare Sea and Heart of Darkness very dangerous places indeed if the sailors could never be sure exactly which way it was spinning at any given time...
Not to mention provide an excellent business opportunity for diviners with far seeing abilities to sell information to ships' navigators. Joe Minotaur Navigator: "Never go out into the Blood Sea without buying a Maelstrom forecast from Sven the Diviner first, that's what I always say! He's never let me down, and it's worth the fifty steel." :D
Not to mention provide an excellent business opportunity for diviners with far seeing abilities to sell information to ships' navigators.
Oh yeah...there are many interesting ways that can go...many story hooks that can be incorporated with that...not to mention increasing the danger of the Blood Sea 10 fold.
(okay...maybe not that much...)I think there was a short story by Jean Rabe about Maquesta and her crew in one of the Chaos War time period anthologies about the Maelstrom (and the quelling of said whirlpool). It was doing some really weird stuff in that story...maybe there's a clue in there ('cause I really can't remember what happened).
I think there was a short story by Jean Rabe about Maquesta and her crew in one of the Chaos War time period anthologies about the Maelstrom (and the quelling of said whirlpool). It was doing some really weird stuff in that story...maybe there's a clue in there ('cause I really can't remember what happened).
You know, the Maelstrom could introduce some really interesting cultural effects. I haven't read any of the literature from that era, but what if a crew taking out a small galley and "riding the storm", intentionally dipping into the Maelstrom, using it to slingshot you around teh Blood Sea, and hauling yourself out at the other side, is sort of a "macho" test for crews and captains? Or even a serious test of mettle, skill, and courage? Maybe a bit like riding the Worms in Dune?
intentionally dipping into the Maelstrom, using it to slingshot you around teh Blood Sea, and hauling yourself out at the other side, is sort of a "macho" test for crews and captains? Or even a serious test of mettle, skill, and courage? Maybe a bit like riding the Worms in Dune?
Right...that's sort of what I was meaning with the Kessel Run from Star Wars comparison.
Unfortuantely...the 4th Age suffers a lot from, "If it's not Solace or the HotL...we don't want to hear about it."
I know everyone want's to read present day stuff (so do I), and historical novels are cool too...but I can't believe that WotC seems to just refuse to write about anything between the Blue Lady's War and the Chaos War. (although the Young Reader's series is a good start...but I think people would like to see more).
Anyway...long story short...there is very little about the Blood Sea and trying to navigate it. There's maybe a little bit in Theros Ironfeld or Maquesta Kar-Thon...but that's about it.