A plea for the RPGA and Living Greyhawk. Peace be upon you!
Some people say that Living Greyhawk is a travesty, a poor joke akin to “Funny” Castle Greyhawk with all of the sensibility of a Rose Estes novel. Some say that too many Living Greyhawk players are juvenile goons, refugees from the defunct Living City of Ravensbluff which was set in the putrescently pubescent Forgetten Realms of Ed Greenwood’s febrile libido and panting hindbrain.
I say, STOP! Cease and desist this instant! That’s not the point here! Greyhawk welcomes new players. Greyhawk should make all new players welcome!
Living Greyhawk is the chief reason for Greyhawk material in the Dungeon. Get behind it people; its all we have at this point.
Yes. There is a need to teach former Forgotten Realms fans about proper Greyhawk etiquette. That’s okay! It is no cause to get bent out of shape.
The best of them will tumble to this quickly and will swear off the Realms like a 12 stepper, embracing new sobriety.
Those lingering in fond remembrance of the Realms’ good drow, lecherous old sages frolicking with elfmays and black and white plotlines as fantastic as yesterdays newspaper discarded after duty at the bottom of the bird cage, simply need an intervention. There is no problem here! I think a series of camps, where Living Greyhawk fans, who we might be called RealmsHawkers, can be interred and reeducated, could be sponsored by local game stores. They could be set up in the back. Behind the racks with the old lead minis. Send a RealmsHawker to Camp! Make it fun for them!
Individual Greyhawkers can pick up the slack. Greyhawkers are good people. Help the handicapped! Take an RPGA LG RealmsHawker out behind the game store and show them Pholtus’ mercy. Ask yourself this - What would St. Cuthbert do? Can you do any less? That’s the spirit!
The time is now to put aside our differences and embrace our little Realms brothers and sisters who are now “Grey.” You see, Living Greyhawk won’t last forever. Oh, yes. There is no set end date for Living Greyhawk but we know all good things come to an end. Living Greyhawk is not immune and will, in fact, be ending in a few short years that will just seem to fly by, what with all the terrific Living Greyhawk adventures being written like the Isles of Woe. Oh, yes. Living Greyhawk’s days are numbered. If nothing else, its hard to imagine 4th Edition not having an effect on Living Greyhawk not unlike 3rd Editions impact on Ravensbluff, only moreso given the rules changes 4th Edition will usher in. A converted 4th Edition campaign just won’t be the same. So, enjoy Living Greyhawk while it lasts!
For you see my friends, when Living Greyhawk ends, so does most of the Greyhawk material in the Dungeon. D&D 4th Edition will not use Greyhawk as a default. It will be lights out for Greyhawk. We will be all alone in the dark. Again. With just each other for company.
We need to think about that and embrace Living Greyhawk and its progeny in the Dungeon while we can. Carpe diem! Seize the day! Soon enough, we will have other concerns.
So, give Living Greyhawkers a chance. For just pennies of your time, you can bring a smile to a RealmsHawker’s otherwise slackjawed face. Sponsor a RealmsHawker. Help put Hawk in their heart. And Grey in their pate. Each month you will receive personal praise and thanks from your RealmsHawker who will live a better life thanks to your generous contribution of knowledge. Good gaming. Clean dice rolls. A satisfying fullness born of Greyhawk goodness. Make a difference today! A RealmsHawker is waiting.
Thank you. And God bless.
NightScreed
There's nothing wrong with regretting that the former is supported (with tournament modules I'll never play) while the latter is not (with game suppliments, which I would).
The post's basic sentiment is why I helped out my regional triad at first, which I later eventually joined briefly. It was to do my best to make sure the Greyhawk-ness came through into the LG campaign as best as one Greyhawk-phile could make it. I resigned my post due to real-world conflicts eventually.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Is there a place I can get the old ones?
I'm internet incompetent and have a terrible time finding things.
Some people say Living Greyhawk players suck. You agree. You encourage 'real' Greyhawk players to help LG players not suck so bad.
Is that basically it?
If this is you 'laying low', its going to be really fun to see you when you really get going.
Once a RPGA LG scenario is retired it is gone forever. My personal hope is that they keep publishing the best of these like 'Mad God's Key' in Dungeon 114. Sort of like weeding the nuggets from the chaff.
When all is said and done I am hoping the official stand on Greyhawk is that only published works in said magazines and the LGJ are 'canon' and the "Ether Threat" etc. go the way of Gargoyle, Rose Estes, Castle Greyhawk....
My personal hope is that they keep publishing the best of these like 'Mad God's Key' in Dungeon 114. Sort of like weeding the nuggets from the chaff.
MGK was not 're-published' in Dungeon but written there on purpose to get new people to LG (cause you get to 2nd level immediately, thing unavailable in other LG modules) and if they would start to re-publish them in Dungeon, the amount would be overwhelming.
Heck, I think many authors might be willing to send their works to Canonfire when modules retire, but seeing that the attitude towards LG is on these boards, I just don't think anyone would actually bother with Canonfire....
S.H, Naerie webslave
Speaking of the LG tournament adventures ...
Is there a place I can get the old ones?
I'm internet incompetent and have a terrible time finding things.
I too have wondered if the old LG adventures are available anywhere. Seems like such a waste if they aren't.
Heck, I think many authors might be willing to send their works to Canonfire when modules retire, but seeing that the attitude towards LG is on these boards, I just don't think anyone would actually bother with Canonfire....
S.H, Naerie webslave
Why would an author want to send their LG adventure to Canonfire?
Yes. It would be easily archived on the net. However, most archived creations on Canonfire draw, at most, a few hundred views and less than a half dozen comments, if that many. This is one of two chief problems with the Canonfire site. While technically very nicely put together, the creative output is all but stillborn. There is no spark of life or quickening of breath, despite the creative output being archived. It is an inert mass of material. I am not knocking Canonfire; I am saying they have a lot of work to do before it is other than a species of vanity press.
I should point out, however, that I am sure the Canonfire brain trust would love to have such submissions should they be available for archiving there. If you wanna, they wanna. You don't even have to kiss 'em good night or call 'em in the morning. Course, seeing all the views and comments, I'm thinking it would be necrophilia.
ICourse, seeing all the views and comments, I'm thinking it would be necrophilia.
Let's play nice folks. We may not all see eye to eye about GH and LG but I am sure we can all agree the important thing is to maintain WoG alive and kicking in the mind of its fans worldwide. CF is doing what it can to help and none of us are qualified to judge by a simple visitor counter just how successful it really is in this endeavor. Just like none of us can dismiss what LG has done (or undone) for WoG. We may not like it but it's there and it's far better than nothing at all despite what some purists would have you believe.
I've never played Forgotten Realms other than Computer Games. I've had the old '81 Greyhawk thing (not the boxed set, the folder prior to the boxed set) stored at my parents house for the past twenty years, and I have no memory whatseover of what's in it. All I knew about Greyhawk I learned from playing first edition modules.
And now, guess what? Everything I know about Greyhawk I'm learning from Living Greyhawk modules. Doesn't much sound like Forgotten Realms to me, where you buy sourcebook after sourcebook so you can get the next, latest awesome feat and broken character class, and where you learn about the world through a hundred novels.
IMO, Greyhawk has always been about the adventures. In fact, I could say the same about AD&D. A stupid broken system with well-conceived adventures. Now D&D finally has a decent system, and the hard-working volunteers of Living Greyhawk are making a good-faith effort to provide it with high-quality adventures. The biggest hurdle for LG is the fact that those adventures each have to be five hours or less.
I've successfully kept my mouth shut on issues like this until now. All of the bashing that goes on on these boards (not the Greyhawk board, actually, more the out of print board) is pathetic. And it's especially pathetic when it's directed toward people who have so much passion for their hobby and so much creative energy that they're willing to work without pay.
It diverges from canon on occasion, just like any home campaign might. It fills in the blanks when there is a section that's undeveloped, just like any home campaign will. And it takes GH from where we have the last official descriptions (akak the LGG) and builds on what might happen over the next five years or more -- just like a home campaign set in the same time period would.
Unless you're the sort of person that would complain to Bob about the GH campaign he's running down the street (or the sort of person that would denigrate all the good fan stuff on Canonfire, etc.), there's no reason to complain or denigrate the Living Greyhawk campaign. It's Just Another Campaign.
Like all previous RPGA modules, when an author wrote a module for LG, it was under a very specific contract. The RPGA got ownership of the module, and paid the author a small fee. The contract basically stipulated (and I'm generalizing here) that the RPGA would publish it exclusively for the benefit of its members to use in officially sanctioned tournaments for a certain period of time, after which the module would be retired.
Older modules aren't (and won't) be made available to the general public, because to do so would require the RPGA/WotC to renegotiate their contracts with each author, and more than likely have to pay the authors additional fees. Chances are most authors wouldn't mind, but the logistics involved isn't worth the trouble for the RPGA/WotC, since they'd never be able to recoup the costs involved in doing so.
On the plus side, from what I understand, the metaregional and regional modules for Living Greyhawk are now being published under a new, different contract. Since the RPGA doesn't pay authors for those anymore, when the module retires from the RPGA network, the rights to the work revert to the original author. The author would have to strip out any of WotC's specific IP terms from the mod if they wanted to do anything else with it after that point, but the author could then archive it on Canonfire, PDF it for electronic sale, hand it out on street corners, etc. Basically, they could do with it what they want.
Just because Living Greyhawk isn't predicated on FR-bashing like you are NightScreed does not mean that it is not based on the same themes and concepts as the Greyhawk material of the past.
Just because Living Greyhawk doesn't embrace your list of phoney elements that make Greyhawk unique NightScreed does not mean it is not a unique campaign.
Just because you are not in charge of Living Greyhawk NightScreed does not mean that the campaign is inferior.
Living Greyhawk has been successful for quite some time without any help from you NightScreed. And those players who have chosen to learn more about the setting have done so without any recourse to FR bashing, or other such snobbery.
And those players who have chosen to learn more about the setting have done so without any recourse to FR bashing, or other such snobbery.
Well said. I actually visited Canonfire forums to see their opinions about LG and many people there had no idea whatsoever about the system of Living Greyhawk (in discussions where they bashed LG) and what difference there was between Core modules & regional modules or what were the functions of regional triads.
The continous example what Canonfire forums used was "Raising The Atlantis" or Isles of Woe as we know it and how it wasn't somehow handled properly. They also though that the Isles would actually stay permanently and as we know, they where there for one Core special module and then sunk back, expect for a pitiful piece of rock which is left in "Return to the Isles" module that retires at the end of the year.
Fortunately Woesinger was there to correct some mistakes. Cheers to Paul for being our new meta-regional "boss" :D
S.H, Naerie webslave
I think I speak for most of us, when I say that, in general, an average RPG group meets once every month to play. Not because of a lack of interest, but because of lack of time.
I am currently trying to manage two player groups, one for the children I guide using DL, and another one for people of my age using Ravenloft and Greyhawk sources.
And I must confess that with this, I really got my weekly portion of RPG.
No matter if I liked LG or not, I am sure that I won't have the time to participate in the next six months at least, and I think many of the people posting here share the same problem.
I am happy playing what I do, if you tell me to play both, I don't feel offended by the proposal, BUT if someone wants me to leave my homegrown stuff for passing my time with other adventures in the company of people I don't really know, I'll have to deny.
I can't imagine playing these sessions in my home campaign, but as a fun thing to do at a convention, I highly recommend it.
For my home game, I agree with SgtHulka, the campaign is pretty much defined by the 1e modules I'm using. I use the LGG to fill in the details as necessary.
MGK was not 're-published' in Dungeon but written there on purpose to get new people to LG (cause you get to 2nd level immediately, thing unavailable in other LG modules) and if they would start to re-publish them in Dungeon, the amount would be overwhelming.
Heck, I think many authors might be willing to send their works to Canonfire when modules retire, but seeing that the attitude towards LG is on these boards, I just don't think anyone would actually bother with Canonfire....
S.H, Naerie webslave
Actually I never said it was "re-published". The fact of the matter is the writing criteria for Dungeon is simply well above and beyond what LG adventures require and less than 5% of LG products would fit that criteria. That 5% is probably being generous on my part.
Also I believe in order for Canonfire to host these adventures all Greyhawk specific information would have to be stripped from them in order to not violate WOTC copyrights. Which would defeat the whole point of people wanting them.
Also I believe in order for Canonfire to host these adventures all Greyhawk specific information would have to be stripped from them in order to not violate WOTC copyrights. Which would defeat the whole point of people wanting them.
I am not offering legal advice; however, I disagree. If Canonfire would really have to strip all Greyhawk-specific information from retired LG scenarios to avoid violating WotC's copyright, then Canonfire would have to strip all Greyhawk-specific information from everything it hosts (which isn't the case). The problem would come in if Canonfire were attempting to make money off of Greyhawk (which, as far as I know, they're not).
If you want something definitive on this, feel free to consult an attorney specializing in intellectual property law.
Actually I never said it was "re-published". The fact of the matter is the writing criteria for Dungeon is simply well above and beyond what LG adventures require and less than 5% of LG products would fit that criteria. That 5% is probably being generous on my part.
You also forgot that LG modules must fit 4-5h criteria (though i've seen plenty of modules that break the rule, fortunately) and that Dungeon is commercial product while LG is a volunteer organisation when it comes to writing. In my opinion, LG module must fulfill two purposes:
1) Be entertaining
2) Offer a challenge
That's it. If I sit down to play and find that 4h was well spent, LG module has fulfilled it's purpose. I would say way more than 5% of the modules have fulfilled two requirements above.
I've played 50 LG adventures. Only ones that i've really hated to play was a Y2 Onnwal regional and one Y3 core module. I know some modules are not written well (when i've DMed them) but they have been salvaged by excellent DMs.
Perhaps the most entertaining module i've ever played was Onnwal special module 'Blood Dimmed Tide' and i've seen many modules that are better than 'Mad God's Key'.
Elendur: I've heard plenty of good things about that special module (Only ran in few selected Cons) and i'm looking forward playing it next week at GenCon UK.
S.H, Naerie webslave
I never did understand the animosity many people have towards Living Greyhawk. LG is just another campaign set in a specific campaign setting. Just like your home campaign set in GH, Fred's home campaign set in GH, Suzie's home campaign set in GH or John's home campaign set in GH, LG is just another home campaign set in GH (albeit on a larger scale).
Well said, Steve. Undoubtedly I will get bored of LG, as usually I get bored of a specific home campaign after a while. Which is why home games change campaigns/characters/DM's/games/settings/etc.
To Ivid: If you don't have time for LG, more power to you. From my perspective, LG is, unfortunately, the only time I have for role-playing. I can't get the same group of people together week after week, so I'm thankful that LG exists so I can take the same character down to monthly game days and play despite ending up with an entirely different group of people every time.
Sadly, my days of non-living games like Call of Cthulhu seem to be in the past (though maybe that's not quite true...CoC makes a good one-off RPG due to constant death and insanity).
Most people who play LG only have a limited amount of time to play. LG, and other RPGA campaigns, let them play more by taking away the need to design adventures, or develop extensive background materials themselves.
Further, unless you play LG exclusively at conventions that you attend without any friends, most people who play LG do so with a regular group, be it a home play group, a game club, or at regular sessions at a retail venue. Sure the people are strangers at first, but then so is everyone else who gets together to form a group, or a new player invited to join one. Play a bunch and those people are no longer strangers.
And of course, if you don't have time for LG then you don't have the time. As long as that isn't held to be some flaw with LG (or any RPGA campaign for that matter), then it is simply a choice that everyone has to make about how to spend their hobby time. It would certainly be great if everyone had time to play LG, but obviously that isn't going to happen.
Lassiviren:
Unless you are the editor of Dungeon, I don't think you should be speaking for what Dungeon would accept in regards to LG. While I have been a vocal critic of the quality of numerous LG modules from the beginning, there are many excellent authors writing for the LG campaign, and Dungeon would be very well served by having some of their work appear in its pages.
The majority of adventures are poorly written and constructed (In my opinion 90+%) especially when compared to a similar adventure published in Dungeon. Its the nature of the beast that something someone pays 7 bucks for is going to be better than something you can get for free.
Add to this the fact that Dungeon specifically makes it a point not to publish material that would mess with the fundamental themes of published campaigns and it doesn't come as any surprise why LG has many Greyhawk grognards spitting blood. When all is said and done of those two scenarios, which one is more likely going to fit into MY version of Greyhawk?
I am not offering legal advice; however, I disagree. If Canonfire would really have to strip all Greyhawk-specific information from retired LG scenarios to avoid violating WotC's copyright, then Canonfire would have to strip all Greyhawk-specific information from everything it hosts (which isn't the case). The problem would come in if Canonfire were attempting to make money off of Greyhawk (which, as far as I know, they're not).
If you want something definitive on this, feel free to consult an attorney specializing in intellectual property law.
Actually I wish you were correct. Everyone who I have ever talked to about this who knows anything about it (RPGA people) have said that because WoTC owns the IP for Greyhawk and have paid the writers for the adventure they can't simply use the material however they want. If you want proof try to find some LG stuff online, or ask some of the writers to send your their adventures. I would also like to say (and I am by no means a legal expert) just because Canonfire doesn't challenge WOTC copyright laws doesn't mean they couldn't take legal action, monetary gain isn't the only challenge companies use to protect intellectual property.
After all, they have an entire systems of licenses (d20 SRD, OGL, etc.) that define exactly what independant publishers and other third-party groups can and cannot use in their materials, and the Greyhawk-specific IP (like the Eberron-specific IP, the FR-specific IP, etc.) are not part of those.
One does not have to be involved in selling something related to someone's IP to risk lawsuit; that just makes it more likely.
That said, the above is all in the realm of the technical and theoretical, as opposed to the Real World. In the Real World, most companies these days don't mind fan-based sites,as they essentially are creating free advertising, and to the best of my knowledge, WotC is no different. Not that there aren't still caveats on that; you have to present the derivative materials in a positive light, of course (they would frown on illithid or beholder porn cartoons, for example, which -- God help us all -- I am sure exists somehwere out there :P).
IIRC, back when TSR still owned the IP, they did a pretty fierce legal crackdown on fan-based sites when the internet first was getting popular, fearing that it would hurt their IP. Unfortunately, the crackdown was so severe, that they completely disgusted many long-time fans of TSR, and most poeople I've heard felt it ended up doing far more harm to the company in the PR department than it was worth. I think many game companies nowadays learned from that scenario, and are more flexible (to a point).
But as long as things are handled in a responsible manner (such as Canonfire looks to do, etc.), there shouldn't be any problem when dealing with purely derivative works (direct copying, such as putting a unauthorized PDF or a trancript of a WotC sourcebook online would no doubt get you in big trouble real quick).
Ivid:
And of course, if you don't have time for LG then you don't have the time. As long as that isn't held to be some flaw with LG (or any RPGA campaign for that matter), then it is simply a choice that everyone has to make about how to spend their hobby time. It would certainly be great if everyone had time to play LG, but obviously that isn't going to happen.
.
Of course I have no argument with LG players. If it's their way to do, I won't hate them JUST BECAUSE THEY PLAY THEIR RPG IN A DIFFERENT STYLE. ;)
In fact, I was a fan of Living Death, a previous Ravenloft Style RPGA campaign.
I do not know, or claim to know, the details of the contracts between WotC and the LG scenario authors, but it is my understanding that the end result is that WotC owns the material outright. The author of the scenario has no legal right to submit it to Canonfire public hosting.
It pretty much comes down to this: If you want access to the LG scenarios, sign up for the RPGA (it's free) and take the DM test. If you pass, and you get a few friends to sign up as well, you can run home gamedays and will have access to the files.
The files we do host are fan created, and submitted with the express permission to host them from the fans that wrote them. Yes, the legal ownership of the material is a little hard to define, since WotC owns the setting, but they, for now at least, seem willing to overlook fansites as long as we don't grossly misrepresent the material (hosting "greyhawk porn", hate material, etc), distribute the material that they wholly own, or try and make money from their IP without a proper license.
There's nothing wrong with regretting that the former is supported (with tournament modules I'll never play) while the latter is not (with game suppliments, which I would).
Well, when you remove the distinction that you've placed between LG and home GH games, it becomes apparent that LG is the support for which you ask, along with bits here and there in the "core" D&D3e/3.5e products and Dungeon magazine.
Until very recently, LG was the primary reason GH content was appearing in Dungeon. The LG websites (A fairly complete directory of which can be found here on WotC's site, at www.wizards.com/greyhawk , a handy shortcut to the LG homepage.) include a lot of background material, maps, 3e/3.5e crunch stuff and more.
You don't have to playLG at gamedays, tournaments or conventions to access and use this material. It's there, and it's safe to say that without the LG campaign, as much as some of us may dislike that style of play or that vision of greyhawk, the stuff wouldn't be there.
I have DM'ed in LG for a couple of years and I have subscribed to Dungeon for over three... I guess that qualifies me to critique LG adventures doesn't it?
I think the point Samwise was making is not that you are not qualified to judge the quality of LG scenarios, in fact, IMO, any fairly knowledgeable Greyhawk fan is allowed to do that. He was saying that none of us here are qualified to make the statement that Dungeon won't publish the scenarios for quality reasons. Erik Mona has never said that, and he's currently the only one qualified to do so.
If anything, aside from making vague comments about the legality issues involved in reusing the scenarios in such a way, Erik has avoided the topic entirely.
I believe in order for Canonfire to host these adventures all Greyhawk specific information would have to be stripped from them in order to not violate WOTC copyrights. Which would defeat the whole point of people wanting them.
That's not true, it's well within fair use boundaries and WotC's existing informal fan site policy for us to post Greyhawk related material, as long as we don't post their Greyhawk material. That's the issue here, not that the material is Greyhawk, but that it is WotC's Greyhawk material. Unless they offer us the right to host the scenarios, it's just not going to happen, we've always been very careful to obtain the permission of the author/owner of every file we host, and WotC has not extended that permission.
To be fair tho, I must repeat, we've never asked for the permission to do this. This isn't a case of WotC or Hasbro raining on their fans' parade.
I should point out, however, that I am sure the Canonfire brain trust would love to have such submissions should they be available for archiving there. If you wanna, they wanna. You don't even have to kiss 'em good night or call 'em in the morning. Course, seeing all the views and comments, I'm thinking it would be necrophilia.
Maybe you're right.
Let's archive all the GH material on Nightscreed's beloved AOL Greyhawk folder. Hey Screed, care to post a link to that for those who don't know where it is?
Heck, I think many authors might be willing to send their works to Canonfire when modules retire, but seeing that the attitude towards LG is on these boards, I just don't think anyone would actually bother with Canonfire....
There's about 3300 people who bother, as a matter of fact.
If WotC, who owns the sole right to offer us the right to archive the LG scenarios, did so, we would surely put them up ASAP for fans to enjoy.
You have to keep one thing in mind, Canonfire is a Greyhawk site, not a LG site. LG fans wishing to learn more about the setting or become part of the community of fans there are more than welcome, but it is not fair to expect everyone there to praise LG. Some of us just don't like the RPGA style of play or the LG flavor of Greyhawk.
You wouldn't go to one of the Living Greyhawk sites and demand everyone there praise the homebrew fan material on Canonfire, would you?
If it makes you feel better, an awful lot of other people have asked to be able to get a copy or host retired modules, and the answer (assuming they actually get a response from WotC's busy legal department) has always been a resounding "No."
When the new regional/metaregional mods (written under the new contracts where the rights revert to the author) start to retire (I think January 2006), though, it would be nice to see if the authors feel like archiving them at Canonfire or some other site.
WotC = RPGA. When authors originally submitted material to the RPGA for Living Greyhawk (and other WotC-owned campaigns), the contract it was under stipulated that when they did so, the IP rights to that material became WotC's -- essentially, the authors were being paid to come up with material for WotC as independant contractors (a pretty common set-up in many industries).
Most of the newer contracts, from what I understand, have those rights reverting back to the original author once the module's run as an RPGA event has expired (predominately, I suspect, because the author is no longer paid for his work), and the author is free to do what he wants with the material (as long as he makes sure to remove any existing IP ("Mordenkainen," "Bigby," "City of Greyhawk," etc.) from the document first.
the author is free to do what he wants with the material (as long as he makes sure to remove any existing IP ("Mordenkainen," "Bigby," "City of Greyhawk," etc.) from the document first.
Ok, then wouldn't it be fine to leave WoTC IP in as long as the author isn't making any money? I was under the belief that fair-use meant just that?
We need an IP specialist lawyer in here!
A person could PDF the Eberon Campaign Sourcebook and distribute it free of charge, but that doesn't make it any less of a copyright violation. :D Same thing applies with other issues regarding copyright.
"I was under the belief that fair-use meant just that?"
Somebody using existing WotC IP to create a new document would fall more under the category of derivative works, which is still essentially using their IP without their permission. Marvel and DC, for example, often crack down on fanfic writers using their characters -- especially if the material is 'suspect' in taste and quality.
Fair use is a nebulous category to be sure, but it's more typically used to defend the use of quoted materials of a text in a review, or in college sylabbi, etc. Of course, like most all terms in copyright law, there is a significant amount of overlap and judgement -- not to mention the fact that for many things, it's not worth it to the company to go out and sue every Tom, Dick and Harry that writes a fanfic (which is essentially what all this is that we're talking about). Doesn't necessarily make it any less illegal or suspect to do, though -- it just makes it less likely that the IP owner will bother with persuing the issue.
If, however, the IP owner has stated explicitly what can and cannot be done with their material, then pushing it isn't worth it, IMHO.
At any rate, we've drifted way far afield here. If people are intersted in copyright law, IP, etc., there are about a bazillion websites out there that goes into plenty of detail.
A person could PDF the Eberon Campaign Sourcebook and distribute it free of charge, but that doesn't make it any less of a copyright violation. Same thing applies with other issues regarding copyright.
Actually, it's not the same. In your example, you're not just talking about the names associated with the Eberron setting, you're talking about a complete book (which is itself the copyrighted property of WotC). In the example with retired scenarios, the rights to which have reverted to their authors, the written product is not owned by WotC - it's owned by the individual author. The only thing in those scenarios that WotC would own would be the setting-specific names. If the authors wanted to strip out the Greyhawk elements, they could do whatever they wanted with them. Or, even with the Greyhawk elements in them, I think they could submit them to a licensed outlet, like Dungeon, which includes an authorization to use those names. (Otherwise, no one could write anything setting-specific for Dungeon. Besides, I'm sure that publication in Dungeon involves selling at least some of the rights for the scenario back to WotC, anyway.) Or, if they wanted to post them, free of charge, on a Greyhawk fan site, I don't see what the problem with that would be, either. The difference, though, is that the authors of the (newer) retired scenarios will be the ones who own the scenario (less its Greyhawk elements), not WotC (as in the case of the Eberron CS).
At any rate, we've drifted way far afield here. If people are intersted in copyright law, IP, etc., there are about a bazillion websites out there that goes into plenty of detail.
What was the original topic? Was it worth getting back to?
I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether or not a copyright violation involves money or not; it's still a copyright violation either way. Probably a bad example on my part, though, given the convoluted nature of the topic at hand.
"In the example with retired scenarios, the rights to which have reverted to their authors, the written product is not owned by WotC - it's owned by the individual author."
Correct; I was under the assumption that the poster was talking about the earlier modules written for LG, and not the more recent ones. The older one's rights did not return to the original author, and so would remain WotC IP; that's the issue to which I was referring.
As mentioned by both you and I, once the newer modules (written under the newer contracts) expire from the RPGA and the rights return to the authors, they may do with them as they wish, so lonmg as they remove any 'offending' terms and copywritten materials. While there are certainly no doubt many LG mods out there that are, shall we say, less than stellar (in my experience, typically the Core mods), there are a number of them that I think have great potential, and would love to see them expanded on outside the limited scope of a tournament event.
"What was the original topic? Was it worth getting back to?"
1.) Largely LG-bashing, and 2.) no, not in my humble opinion. There are much better GH-related topics out there to discuss than (once again) trying to slam people that happen to like other campaigns or settings...
Maybe you're right.
Let's archive all the GH material on Nightscreed's beloved AOL Greyhawk folder. Hey Screed, care to post a link to that for those who don't know where it is?
Dear Maria,
The past is regrettably past and can only serve as touchstone for the future for those who may yet recall fondly that which has gone before. Are you not one of these? Or is all to you novelty with nothing to which you can compare? I would you had strode with me in that Augustan Age, felt your pulse enlivened, your stride quickened and known, if perhaps fleetingly, if perhaps only at twilight, that you touched sometime grand and mysterious. It was not always this but enough of it.
I am pleased that you ask. Your perception is greater than those who espy only that which can register on their mean senses and meaner sensibilities.
Do not judge me too harshly in my estimation of Canonfire. It is as fine a place to archive one’s work for the pleasure of one and all as Greyhawk fans have ever known. That it is not more takes nothing away from this and does not preclude the possibility that there may yet grow a community equal to the technical virtuosity of the place. But technology alone is cold, even if it dazzles like sparkling ice.
So too, know that I harbor no ill will toward those who find enjoyment in Living Greyhawk as has been rudely suggested by some Philistines after too crude a reading of my initial post. It has popularized Greyhawk, bringing to it a new audience, and this is altogether good. Wherein a difficulty arises, as I see things, is when these new players in Greyhawk are Greyhawkers in name only and still too much adhere to the customs and practices of settings divergent in style and tone from Greyhawk, most notably the Forgotten Realms. To preserve that which made Greyhawk worthy of survival, it must not become through main force or otherwise but a shadowy reflection of the Realms, or any other setting, with but a different set of names. Thus, it is necessary to look to the new arrivals and make them welcome, while yet looking to them to do more than simply sit down and pick up some dice. They should be encouraged to drink more deeply of the setting that they may more fully enjoy their experiences there with and there in and join a larger community of Greyhawk fans.
To say this, who is offended? Who finds this abhorrent and intolerable? To seek better company, while yet allowing that many may be but transitory in their affections and affectations? It is no loss to those passing through for they give it no mind to begin with. It is no loss to those who might take an opportunity presented but to their benefit if they find good company. Surely, it is to the benefit of those already counted in good company. What occasions offense then? That any but those offended perceive something beyond the ends of their noses? That if they are not the arbiters of taste then nothing is to their taste? Something of this surely. A grumbling, colicy, ill-temper and cramped humorlessness overlaid with an officious sense of right and entitlement characterizes these, most particularly when all do not bow to their judgments and would seemingly deny their self-proclaimed right and entitlement. They are self-evident by their own words.
Yes. I find in Greyhawk something special. I have set it out long ago and while times are different and have eroded parts of the foundation, the edifice still stands by more than half. Half a ruin but half a keep none have dared enter. For here is it again. They can offer nothing to say what is Grey but deny any attempt to do so not their own. They hunch and skulk and slink, furtively peering and peaking, their faces impotently snarling, but dare not step forth and declare other than their own utter inability to offer anything but the critics measure - those who can do, those who cannot critique, and badly it seems for they appear as much zealous as jealous that they can offer nothing more. A false critique then borne of false pride in no works of their own.
I dismiss them. But not you.
Judge me by my words and by my actions, dear lady. I have no fear of it. While I may trample the daisies, ply my blade too readily for those accustomed to clubs, and give but short shrift to the huffings and puffings of dons who would be dunces and dunces who would be dons, who sagely cluck that my fashion is too bold, my cap set too much aright, for all that, I am true and sure as I make my way to your tower, that I may dare the heights and proclaim to all who would hear that a heart yet beats with no dead passion but a burning desire to encompass all within a Grey cloak of Hawk’s feathers. Deny me not admittance, my lady, but throw open your doors! That we must here say our piece speaks to me that the windows to your tower are shut up and barred. Confine not your spirit to dusty rooms and whispered conversations held amidst archives that go so unread. Here but most assuredly there, be that which you show yourself to be despite your poor company.
“Of cloudless climes and starry skies
And all that’s best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes
Thus mellow’d to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies”
It is not the matter of an hour or of a day or even of a month or year. There is time enough and it is the finding of the secret that unlocks all time that most presses itself upon us. In years hence, it is my fondest hope that we may look back on these times and these places and, as then, find them equal of fond remembrance.
I have set myself to it. But, I am unsure how best to please. I will not yet swear upon it but prithee say to me what you would find pleasing. Speak to me. I would have your council.
Your Obedient Servant,
NightScreed
The past is regrettably past and can only serve as touchstone for the future for those who may yet recall fondly that which has gone before. Are you not one of these? Or is all to you novelty with nothing to which you can compare?
I was around back then, and I agree that at times, the AOL folders (Not just Greyhawk) and the TSR Live areas of AOL were exciting and fun. A lot of good ideas and homebrew material came out of them. OTOH, there were times, such as the clashings of the CoG guys and WoGFC guys, where the folders were full of useless posturing and drivel.
To me at least, Canonfire gives us the good without so much of the bad. Yah, Greytalk (the list and the chat) are still full of bile now and then, but the site doesn't archive it like the AOL folders did. To me, that's a good thing.
Do not judge me too harshly in my estimation of Canonfire. It is as fine a place to archive one’s work for the pleasure of one and all as Greyhawk fans have ever known.
You're entitled to your opinion, but when your return from a lengthy hiatus is heralded, for the most part, by a loud criticism of the current state of the Greyhawk community, people like myself and the other Canonfire staffers are going to be defensive about it. The fact that your criticism was made here, instead of on Canonfire's forums, and fails to offer (so far at least, I trust you've got ideas) any real suggestions for improvement just compounds things.
It has popularized Greyhawk, bringing to it a new audience, and this is altogether good. Wherein a difficulty arises, as I see things, is when these new players in Greyhawk are Greyhawkers in name only and still too much adhere to the customs and practices of settings divergent in style and tone from Greyhawk, most notably the Forgotten Realms.
Well, as Gary Gygax has said, and stated when the setting was released, Greyhawk was purposely left open ended to allow the individual DM to make it her own. I see your point, and agree, though not on the same criteria. Some Greyhawk material, be it from the AOL folders, Canonfire, Living Greyhawk, Dungeon, whatever, doesn't suit my game. I don't use it, but I don't criticize those who created it as false Greyhawk fans because they have a different vision.
I have set myself to it. But, I am unsure how best to please. I will not yet swear upon it but prithee say to me what you would find pleasing. Speak to me. I would have your council.
Well, since you asked for my opinion, here it is. Get creative again, contribute something postive. A recollection of the material from AOL folders of old shows that you're not all negativity and criticism, so focus on that. Criticism only draws like responses. If nothing else, offer some specific suggestions on how the current state of the community, be it here, on Canonfire, or in LG, may be improved.
OK, now I believe it is the Screed. With the same old screed.
To wit - he is the sole person qualified to be the arbiter of what is and is not Greyhawk, that such should always be predicated on bashing the Forgotten Realms, that his standards are when closely examined little more than a statement of what the Forgotten Realms actually is, that anyone who doesn't agree with him is simply demonstrating how wrong they are, that he likes to use archaic and obtuse phrasings in an attempt to demonstrate what he considers to be his superior knowledge, and most important of all, he has nothing left to contribute to the Greyhawk community except for snide comments and gratuitous sneerings directed at anyone who continues to create and share their efforts with others, be it through official means (such as LG) or fan sites (such as Canonfire!).
Or to translate it into Screedish:
"And what rough beast, its hour long since past, slouches towards the message boards to be reborn (or at last reiterated)."
In one of your introductory posts, you mentioned having perused carefully a number of the articles hosted on Canonfire!. Mar has just asked you :[g]et creative again, contribute something postive." I ask for you to discuss some of the relatively recent fan creations that you've found interesting.
Several "generations" of GH fans have come and gone since you went offline. Speaking less abstractly, a significant number of fans have produced substantial works to share their versions of Oerth. If you are sincere in sparking creativity amongst GH fans, I assert it is important for you to know of these works. Beyond "you," I believe it is vital for GH fans generally to know about what Pateris once named the "Lost Savants." However, Lendor's sands covered the Technical Bard. He (despite showing briefly at last week's chat) became "lost" to us and many more have passed since.
Beyond Canonfire, consider searching through or surfing the Greytalk Archives. They were vital for a time, certainly including late 1999 until sometime in 2002 (to pluck dates from memory). Fans interested in the many others who have shared their Alternate Oerths should probably also review the second volume of the Oerth Journal.