The latest preview for War of the Lance is now up. Derek Crownguard, Knight of the Rose and Salah-Khan, Dragon Highlord are your sample characters from the Personalities chapter. Click here to check it out!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
A Knight of Steel I can see not having levels, since its more of a loose knit group a little. But a Knight of the Rose...doesnt have any levels in Knight of the Crown, Knight of the Sword, or Knight of the Rose? I just find this too much. When he was raising in levels, or getting more experienced I would have thought he would have taken at least one level. I dunno...stunned is about how to describe me right now.
A Knight of Steel I can see not having levels, since its more of a loose knit group a little. But a Knight of the Rose...doesnt have any levels in Knight of the Crown, Knight of the Sword, or Knight of the Rose? I just find this too much. When he was raising in levels, or getting more experienced I would have thought he would have taken at least one level. I dunno...stunned is about how to describe me right now.
Check his alignment. Derek doesn't qualify for the prestige class.
Cheers,
Cam
~~~
This is another example where alignment gets screwy. I've seen people who consider Derek evil, some things hes neutral, and I still believe he is good. The guy wanted good things to happen in the world, even if he did believe he should be the one on top. Yes he manuevered for him to be on top, but he still wanted to do things good in the world. He attacked the Blue Dragon Army because he really did believe he was doing the right thing. He didn't like Sturm, but everyone has people they don't like. And everyone does small little things to people they don't like, whether its ignore them, or not include them, etc. I dont see it as a big deal. No one in this world or even in Dragonlance is "pure" good. If this man is considered neutral for wanting to be on top of the knighthood, wanting to exterminate evil, and thinking he knows better.. than I want to see the Kingpriest be neutral also. Maybe not when the Kingpriest started, but in the end I blieve the kingpriest acted the same way as Derek personally.
I'm sure people will disagree with me and thats fine. I'm also sure people will try to show where the kingpriest is different than Derek, but it doesnt matter. Both people did what they thought was right, and they both thought they could head better than anyone else. They boht believe they were the man for the job.
So does this open up doors for evil and neutral characters to be Knights? So.. now I suppose Lord Soth wont have any Knight levels either when he eventually gets statted out with respect to before he became a Death Knight? This is crazy. These people should all have levels in the Knight of Solamnia prestige classes. Alignment issues I think just mess with the world and prestige classes too much. I say if it comes to this, than leave alingment out of the equation for the prestige classes. I dunno, I can't picture these people as being Knights, and not having the abilities that go along with it. Granted Tanis did it, but he was honorary. I can only see this happening as a rare occurance.
Amazingly this has bothered me way more than what i thought it would..
And p.s. I dont care if Derek was born into being a noble, he still had to do work. I doubt they just passed it out as like an invitation. Maybe he didnt have to do just "as" much, as what a Knight in other times would, but stil'. I'm almostd ead sure in the Chronicles during the trial he was said to have passed his tests, which is why his testimnony carried weight when all Sturm could do was accuse a Knight in full standing as a liar. But whatever.. I'm sure everyone will agree with the War of the Lance write-up.. which I feel is horrible. But it happens..
Are you saying that SP is prejudiced against Derek Crownguard ?
~~~
Many people are going to be angry that Lord Derek Crownguard has no levels in any of the Knights.
Why? Derek was obviously not a LG character. So he can't have any levels in the PrC.
That said...the acceptance into the Knights of Solamnia organization does not hinge on the fact of having the PrC or not. It has been stated many times (for all the PrCs)...you don't have to have the PrC to be part of the organization.
It doesn't make Derek any less of a "real" Knight of Solamnia because he doesn't have the Knight of the Rose PrC...other aspects of his character make him less of a knight, though. ;)
Edit: I shoudl say that, if your PCs encounterr Derek in-game, they likely won't be able to tell the difference whether he has Solamnic PrC levels. It's abstracted to them.
It doesn't make Derek any less of a "real" Knight of Solamnia because he doesn't have the Knight of the Rose PrC...other aspects of his character make him less of a knight, though.
Like his "insanity" maybe ?
~~~
The Crownguards were one of the most influential of the Solamnic families. I dont think that the KOS would be so bold as to go into major combat by being led by a layperson.
What are you talking about? He's not a "layman." He's a Knight of Solamnia...a very high ranking Knight of the Rose...not having PrC matters not in the slightest.
I am a bit surprised at his low CR level, however. But, I think that just more or less shows the dire straights that the KoS are in at this point in time...that one of the highest ranking officers of the KoS is only a 10th level character.
Like his "insanity" maybe ?
Heh heh...yeah.
I always kinda wondered about that though. Was he insane before the battle...or was it the battle itself that finally knocked him off the rocker?
I mean, I think he was probably a little "imbalanced" to begin with...perhaps a bit zealous? But he was definately gone after all his men were slaughtered.
Everyone seems to think that every Knight acts the eact same way and if they don't, they are automatically not good. As a matter of fact, I don't think Derek ever went against the Measure. And that is the only thing that exactly tells how a Knight should act. There is no other book that tells what a Knight should do or anything. So now.. this man who does everything the way the Knighthood is written..can't have levels in the prestige class that was made for the Knights? That is just plain wrong. Take the requirement of being good out of the prestige class. You can say it doesn't make Derek any less of a Knight, but I think its unfair that a guy who adheres to the exact way the Knighthood was written can't even take the prestige class that was made for Knights? Bah! If thats the case, make more prestige classes for the neutral people. Obviously neutral people are allowed in the knighthood. Why are good people only allowed to take the class? And I still maintain that Derek was a good person. This man had to do countless nice actions throughout his career.. we just don't see them because we don't know about his early years. This man had ambition.. but there is a rare person who doesnt. Granted he manuevered things to his favor, but he truly believed he was best at leading the knights. I don't see this as evil. He decided he didn't like Sturm and thought he wouldnt make a good knight.. again its his opinion and if he doesnt want to let "bad knights" in.. than I dont see it as evil to try to make it where he doesnt get in.
Anyways, I like Sturm but everyone seems to put him on a pedastal. I find it amazing that people praise him for going against a direct command. Yes everything turned out for the best, so now he's a hero. But can you imagine the example he has shown to other knights. Are they allowed to disobey commands whenever they feel "Eh, I've decided that is a bad plan..I won't listen". That would cause chaos in the ranks and make leaders pretty much useless. Discipline is built upon your soldiers following your orders when you give them, not them taking time and deciding if they think they are right. I find it amazing so many people think that Sturm is such a hero for it. I really do think he is a hero, but remember, if things had turned out all right.. he would be kicked out of the knighthood..and I almost daresay he wouldnt be lawful good anymore..or at least would switch soon if he stopped following orders. Maybe not this drastic but still.
As I said before, if derek is lawful neutral god I hope to see the Kingpriest neutral because they both believed they were right and they could lead better, all the while proclaiming they were doing good. And I'd love to see that get pulled off.
Also I'm so sorry to see Derek have levsl in noble. god that sucks. The noble class is horrible, next to the mariner. I've heard nothing but good things about the Master class so I'll reserve my judgement. No one would go up all the way in noble, and they barely get anything worth while. I don't see why you couldn't justs ay the guy was a noble without actually making a class and having him take 4 levels in it. I guess one or two levels in it would add "flavor", but anything after that..its horrible.
A knight without levels in Knight is simply a fighter.
No, he's not. He's a knight just like every other knight...with the only difference is, his skills will be different than the knights who take the PrC. But they're both knights.
So now.. this man who does everything the way the Knighthood is written..can't have levels in the prestige class that was made for the Knights?
Nope...because he's not a good person. He is very ambitious and self-serving. Now, that may not be evil...but it is certainly not good. He's not a selfless person...something that is essential to being a "true" knight. (note the difference between a "true" knight and a "real" knight: Both Sturm and Derek were "real" knights...but only Sturm was a "true" knight)
Take the requirement of being good out of the prestige class.
I disagree with that idea. I think the PrC needs to be there...reserved for only the true knights.
Take the requirement of being good out of the prestige class. ... If thats the case, make more prestige classes for the neutral people.
Actually... I wouldn't complain very strongly about either one of these options. I don't have a problem with Crownguard not having Solamnic levels, but I can see your point on this.
That said...the acceptance into the Knights of Solamnia organization does not hinge on the fact of having the PrC or not. It has been stated many times (for all the PrCs)...you don't have to have the PrC to be part of the organization.
It doesn't make Derek any less of a "real" Knight of Solamnia because he doesn't have the Knight of the Rose PrC...other aspects of his character make him less of a knight, though. ;)
Agreed.
The Knight of Solamnia prestige classes represent the ideal knight. They're designed so that when you play a Knight of Solamnia, you play a very heroic type of character, like Sturm or Huma. While Derek Crownguard may have been a member of the Knight of Solamnia organization, he did not fit the role of a heroic knight.
I know, it seems odd having WoHS without levels of the WoHS prestige class, and KoS without levels of the KoS prestige classes. However, one must separate out one's position in the world with the game mechanics used to allow people to play certain roles of characters.
Imagine if things were flip-flopped. What if the KoS prestige classes were re-written so that Derek Crownguard could be a member? We would all be sitting here debating that they weren't done right as the alignment requirements would have changed.
When making stats for characters, you have to use what best fits them. Ariakas with Thorn Knight levels? We've already heard some backlash on that one, but the fact is that he was the prototype for the Thorn Knights, so it does fit. And really, the class fits his abilities the best.
Debate on the stats of the characters from Chronicles have gone on since day one, and I'm sure that WotL will only add to that debate. No two of us will see the characters eye-to-eye.
Of course, if anyone is dissatisfied with a character's stats, I'd like to remind everyone that the Nexus does have a characters section, if people want to do their own variant. ;)
At least it does make Sovereign Press' position fairly clear on the matter of prestige classes. That is, you do not have to have levels in the prestige class to be part of the organization. Many members of Krynn's organizations, orders, and groups qualify in ways that aren't covered by game mechanics, but aren't otherwise covered by the class requirements. There are wizards who pass the Test, are entered into the Orders (both of which happen outside of rules concerns) and advance as wizards, never taking a level in the prestige class because they don't meet the feat or skill rank requirements. The same is true for the bulk of the Legion of Steel - most don't have the Steel Legionnaire PrC. And, again, the dark knights of Neraka and the knights of Solamnia include, in their number, individuals who only have levels in fighter, noble, ranger, or other non-PrC classes.Cheers,
Cam
Then why bother with PrCs and lets just get back to 1st and 2nd edition ways of doing classes?
They give the players more options. More options is generally a good thing.
But if the creators are not being all that true to their creation...?
I don't understand the question. How is this the case? Knights of Solamnia have the option of striving for levels in the PrCs, or they may continue taking levels of fighter or ranger or rogue or whatever. Members of the WoHS may take levels of the PrC, or stick with their basic Wizard.
They're just options.
And of course nothing in the world says you can't house-rule it in a particular way. I house-rule classes in my game all the time.
But if the creators are not being all that true to their creation...?
That's a pretty bold claim to make...not to mention a biased one. They're not being true to your vision of...well, really game mechanics is what we're talking here.
That's like being me being mad at George Lucas for for ruining my Star Wars.
Anyway...this debate is going no where. You're not going to convince me you are right (and you haven't really added anything to your argument you just keep repeating your points), and I doubt I will convince you that I am. I think we just need to agree to disagree and move on.
The thing that gets me mad, especially if one reads the DL novels, is that the classes do not always follow what happens in the book. Raistlin was studying to become a war mage in the Brothers in Arms book, but in the WOL book, he doesnt have the levels. If he didnt take the class that is fine, but give us an explanation as to why the class levels are not there.
Read this post again if I am not making myself clear.
The thing that gets me mad, especially if one reads the DL novels, is that the classes do not always follow what happens in the book. Raistlin was studying to become a war mage in the Brothers in Arms book, but in the WOL book, he doesnt have the levels. If he didnt take the class that is fine, but give us an explanation as to why the class levels are not there.
There are a few reasons for this sort of thing. First, to write a novel that exaclty mirrors game mechanics leads to a novel that reads like a transcript of someone's game sessions, which does not make for a good novel.
Second, perhaps he was studying to be a war mage - but does the fact that there's a PrC with that same name require every combat-oriented wizard to take levels of it? When I think about my Dragonlance PC, the (imaginary) person that he is, I don't think in terms of classes. I think about what he has done, what he can do, who he is: A seer, a fortune teller, a dreamer, an idealist, a scholar. This is pretty well modelled by Diviner 5/White Robe 2/Master 2, but that's not how I think of him. It's possible that when the authors thought about Rasitlin, mapped out the sort of man he was, that War Mage didn't make the list when modelling that.
Just how I see it.
well then at least inform us that he studied to take the class but never did.
You know he did, though, which works for you. For people who didn't know - what difference does it really make? That's what reading the novels is for.
well then at least inform us that he studied to take the class but never did.
You already know that if you read Brothers in Arms, right? Raistlin never does anything more with the training he was involved in during his time as a mercenary. He's not portrayed as a war mage during the War of the Lance, and at the stage he's described at in the WOTL sourcebook, he doesn't have enough experience to acquire the war mage PrC either.
The beauty of having his character provided at varying levels in products is that you could, conceivably, have your players take the role of Raistlin, Caramon, Sturm and others, and make their own decisions later as they advance. Raistlin's player might decide to have his alignment shift to good, and become a White Robe. Or, he might take the war mage PrC after all, perhaps by becoming more involved in the actions of the war itself. It's all about the options.
Cheers,
Cam
The thing that gets me mad, especially if one reads the DL novels, is that the classes do not always follow what happens in the book.
Sometimes...you just can't match the novels...and if you try, it'll make you crazy.
In this case...(I'm not sure on this though)...I'm not sure that there are enough wizard levels for Raistlin to be a 6th level character and have at least one level in WoHS and one in War Mage.
I too would like to see Raistlin have some War Mage levels...but I don't know if it's possible at this early point in his career. But when Margaret wrote BiA (or any other author for that matter) they aren't thinking, "Well...I can't have him studying to be a War Mage at this point because there's no way he'd have the skill points or the feats available yet to be taking a level in this class."
All that being said, however...it would have been nice to have Raistlin have at least Eschew Materials.
But like Trampas said...the HotL are going to be a very hotly debated set of stats...everyone will have their own opinion (trust me on this...I got a lot of hate mail on my HotL stats on the Nexus...hence why I only did four of them, heh heh)
Perhaps St. Francis of Assisi was correct when he said, expect nothing that way you are never disappointed?
I state again...
I state again...Perhaps St. Francis of Assisi was correct when he said, expect nothing that way you are never disappointed?
Well, you could take a relatively minor point and let it ruin your enjoyment of the book, or not. That's your decision.
oops.. I dont mean Amaron I mean Taminier.. I'm waiting for him to go the extra mile and actually sign in in two explorers with different names.. to show they arent the same heh
Anyways, I just dont see the justification of a "real knight" and a "true knight". Yes maybe one is more nobler, but Derek followed the Measure to the letter. I see this man as a true knight also. This man believed in the exact way the Measure was written, which did have a lot of good things written into it, even if it was outdated. I personally believe that obviously Derek believed in good over evil, adn I still maintain he's good. Just because he did thingsa a little different and isnt the "shining knight with pure goodness" does not make him any less of a knight. I maintain and truly believe that you barely see any knights who encompass this. Everyone has quirks, sins, and things they need to get over. I thought that the way derek was made him more real, I could relate to him because he had faults. I like this in people in books. I think too often that if a person doesnt fit the lofty goodness alignment, people automatically assume that they arent good..and I find that unfair. I hate the way alignment is because it is such a grey area its not funny.
I maintain that if Derek is neutral than so is the Kingpriest. I realize I've repeated this so I'll try to stop after this time. these men did both the same thing, and the Kingpriest is still touted as being "good". This man did countless things for what he felt right, did what he saw was good, and decided his vision was better than everyone elses. I maintain that Derek did the exact same thing.
Yes I guess not every Knight will have prestige class levels. I guess I can come to terms with this.. even though I dont like it. But I still say that it shouldnt be that only good people can than get into the Knight levels. To me a True Knight is one who follows the Measure. And Derek followed it to the letter. I cant understand how he has no levels... But I'm repeating myself so sorry.
My God. You make old dinos like me want to eat soda crackers and raw garlic. Sheesh.
On topic: Excellent work, S.P. I'm thrilled with Derek's stats and I feel like not giving him levels in any knight PrC's is the perfect way to silently state theatrical form over game mechanics. His old Noble levels give him a real softness that's refelected inhis antiquated, snooty mannerisms. Very nicely done.
The Green Highlord is great too - perhaps my favorite part being the end of the section that deals with the Assassin PrC and how it works in the 4th Age. Very nicely done - in fact, I prefer that take on it more than theDMG's version (which I've nevermuch cared for).
Peace.
Anyways, I just dont see the justification of a "real knight" and a "true knight". Yes maybe one is more nobler, but Derek followed the Measure to the letter.
I don't know...I just can't see that him following the letter of the Measure was true. I think he knew the Measure better than anyone, and he used that to his advantage. He knew how to manipulate the Measure to get it to say what he wanted. He's like those TV Evangilists who can quote the Bible verbatum...and they do, but they take verses that have nothing to do with each other...take them out of context, and put them together to say what they want it to say.
I maintain that if Derek is neutral than so is the Kingpriest. I realize I've repeated this so I'll try to stop after this time. these men did both the same thing, and the Kingpriest is still touted as being "good".
I guess this is where we disagree. I think the Kingpriest was good to a fault. It wasn't so much that he was good anymore, as he was anti-evil. But I never saw the Kingpriest (not even in Pierson's new books) as ever being selfish or self-serving. Everything he did...he did for the good of humanity (or so he felt). It was never selfish in nature.
I believe this is the opposite for Derek. Sure, Derek did good things...but only because it helped his stature in life. His alterior motive was always, "How is this going to help me...how can I manipulate the situation so that I can come out ahead."
But...I think we've gone off into an area that is beyond the scope of what this thread was originally supposed to be about. Perhaps we should start a new thread about the morality of DL characters...Derek Cowngaard in specific (although I'm not sure what more there is for us to say on this subject
)The Green Highlord is great too - perhaps my favorite part being the end of the section that deals with the Assassin PrC and how it works in the 4th Age. Very nicely done - in fact, I prefer that take on it more than theDMG's version (which I've nevermuch cared for).
Salah-Khan and Lucien are my favorite highlords, probably because they're not given much attention in the novels except to confuse them with each other (the modules didn't help with this!). So, it was a really big deal for me to define them in game terms that makes them interesting, rather than just Joe Dragon Highlord with different colored armor. Salah-Khan's assassin levels, Lucien's a half-ogre... that kind of thing. This way, a DM can use them as their "big bad" in a War of the Lance campaign and make it their own story, rather than using Kit and Verminaard, who are already well-known.
And yeah, I don't get why assassins were given spells. Go figure.
Cheers,
Cam
For the love of Saltines, Ama- err, Taminier: Cease. Desist. Mute Button. Don't quote St. Francis, your Uncle Hewey, or anyone..
Like this: It is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
So, it was a really big deal for me to define them in game terms that makes them interesting, rather than just Joe Dragon Highlord with different colored armor. Salah-Khan's assassin levels, Lucien's a half-ogre... that kind of thing
And Feal-thas as a winternorn. Very cool.
Salah-Khan and Lucien are my favorite highlords, probably because they're not given much attention in the novels except to confuse them with each other (the modules didn't help with this!). So, it was a really big deal for me to define them in game terms that makes them interesting, rather than just Joe Dragon Highlord with different colored armor. Salah-Khan's assassin levels, Lucien's a half-ogre... that kind of thing. This way, a DM can use them as their "big bad" in a War of the Lance campaign and make it their own story, rather than using Kit and Verminaard, who are already well-known.
And yeah, I don't get why assassins were given spells. Go figure.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, if it was a big deal then you pulled it off admirably. I wasn't even aware that this was your work when I first looked at it, but I must congratulate you on a job well done. Your concept of taking the underprivelged step-sons of theDragon Highlords and making them into very distinct entities of whup-a** is refreshing.
Kit and Vermy have been done to death - these two chuckleheads were glossed over and handed frisbees. What better foes to pump up and send against a party of frothing do-gooders.
Question: What credits do you have in the War of the Lance book?
Thought: Assassins were given spells to make up for their terrible bondage wear (see pic in the DMG). That or it was antiquated design philosophy. That or it was a very different assassin from your historical stalker-of-the-night, slithering in shadows, master of disguise, etc, etc (note - you might be very interested with some d20 Modern work I've done recently dealing with just these types of social misfits). But then, historical assassins didn't really have spells, per say.
All right, never mind. I've muted (and mooted) my own point.
Peace.
For the love of Saltines, Ama- err, Taminier: Cease. Desist. Mute Button. Don't quote St. Francis, your Uncle Hewey, or anyone..
My God. You make old dinos like me want to eat soda crackers and raw garlic. Sheesh.
Yes, it really is quite amazing how Taminier was created and started posting within minutes of Amaron's departure due to massive spamming. It's also amazing how when one glances at this board one can actually see where this transition takes place, for instead of "Last post by Amaron" we now see the board flooded with "Last post by Taminier". It's also amazing how Taminier makes all the same grammatical errors as Amaron (case in point: Tamanier Ambrodel) and has the same fondness for continually posting one-line responses that add nothing to the topic of the thread as well as continuing his practice of bad grammar in foreign languages. Yes, all quite amazing.
On-Topic: The non-spellcasting Assassin looks real good, and actually does make more sense than the ambient-magic using DMG Assassin.
All right, never mind. I've muted (and mooted) my own point.
I noticed that...that was quite deftly done, actually. :D
Yes, it really is quite amazing how Taminier was created and started posting within minutes of Amaron's departure due to massive spamming.
There's nothing wrong with that as it would have only been the Login Name that would be banned because of that bit of spamming yesterday, not the person or the IP address.
Just don't pretend like you're outsmarting us, and don't spam like yesterday...and I don't really care.
Again we come to the Kingpriest argument, since I brought it up. I dont see much of a difference really. Granted Derek wants is very ambitious and he did do things to further himself, but he also thought he was doing "good" This man thought he was doing what was best for the Knighthood and the world. The Kingpriest thought he was doing good also.. he was very ambitious also. He thought *he* was the best for the job..and made sure he was at the top. He eventually was so ambitious and thought he was the only one who could do it that he demanded to become a god and caused the cataclysm? I see this as more evil than wanting to become head of the knights and lead them. But maybe its different to some people, I just think so.
And now the thing has been brought up the difference betwene a True Knight and a Real Knight. Will this cause there to be tension if a "True Knight" starts saying stuff like the other knight isnt a real knight since they arent "true"? Won't they think they are "better" because they are a "True Knight"? I dunno, I think this just distinguishes the knights too much. They seem as seperate entities and I dont like that. I'd rather just take the alignment out of the equation. Because I can guarantee you are going to start seeing a lot more of nongood solamnics now.. and I wonder how the Knights of Solamnia will like that? These are people who are built upon being good.. how in the world would they allow nongood people in? Yes he was born into it.. but still. These people live for goodness.
I wonder if this will open up possiblities for neutral/evil characters to become Knights of Solamnia now.
Well, the possibility is always there for the DM...they can write in whatever they want, or allow whatever they want. But I highly doubt we will see this very much. Another really good example, though, would be Rennard (Huma's uncle).
This man thought he was doing what was best for the Knighthood and the world. The Kingpriest thought he was doing good also.. he was very ambitious also. He thought *he* was the best for the job..and made sure he was at the top.
Hmm...I don't know what to say. I just think fundamentally, the Kingpriest was coming from a good place, good ideals, selfless thoughts, where Derek wasn't...it always seemd like to me it was "how can this help me," "what can I do to make it so that I come out ahead," me, me, me. I guess that's the only way I can put it...I just think fundamentally they are different.
Will this cause there to be tension if a "True Knight" starts saying stuff like the other knight isnt a real knight since they arent "true"? Won't they think they are "better" because they are a "True Knight"?
Of course not...a "True" knight would never do that. ;)
But, you can't look at it like that...and if the players start doing that, I'd call that meta-gaming, and not being true to their characters. (ie. to characters arguing about their levels and PrC while "in character.")
And Feal-thas as a winternorn. Very cool.
Pun intended? ;)
Feal-thas has become one of my favorite highlords. After seeing his stats (and that cool pic!), I realized how I could interweve his history into that of an old NPC of mine. The result has been a white-furred minotaur Knight of the Thorn who has levels as a winternorn.
I see it as weird that a Knight of Solamnia isn't good. I just find it amazing because I figured that that was a requirement for a group that was founded on "goodness". I think this opens up for more neutral people to be knights, etc. And I don't think that should be there. Yea maybe Derek focused heavily on his ambition, but its not like he thought his ambition would ruin the knighthood, destroy the world, etc. This man literally thought he was the best for the job and I don't consider that evil. It still hasn't been proven that if he was in charge of the Knights that they would have loss. I'm sure most people agree it wouldnt have turned out as well... but you never know. I think sometimes people consider his way as "wrong" because everything turned out all right. I dunno, maybe I just have a problem with labeling a guy as not good just because he had a few minor quirks that might not have been the most desirable. I feel there really isn't a perfect "good" person.. but whatever. I guess it bothers me that the Kingpriest is seen as good because he did all this evil stuff because he thought it was right, but Derek is considered as neutral because when he did what he thought was right, it favored him. Heck all the stuff the kingpriest did favored him too. What in the world did he sacrifice when he was doing all this good stuff? Did he step aside and let someone else head the clerics? No he built a dang religion around himself because he thought he was the equal of a god.
I dunno as I said alignment is so funky anyways. I've touted several times how there is no way that the Kingpriest could have had spells when the Cataclysm struck anyways. The definition of good in D&D and Dragonlance would have prevented this the minute he did an evil act. They lose full spellcasting and powers. It doesnt matter if he thinks hes doing the right thing, there is no loophole that lets that get through. If you did allow it then you have people who can enslave dwarves and make them worship Kiri-Jolith to save their souls. Because they think they are doing the right thing. Since Derek isn't able to be good because of his "quirks" and he does "good" things to further himself or what he believes is right, I'm interested to see how they explain the kingpriest still being good. This man furthered what he believed to be right and didnt care about other races lives and what even other "good people thought, example the Knights. I cannot see how Paladine would just sit there and think that its all right. There is no way I can accept he didnt care that the kingpriest enslaved other races, hunted his son's followers, and took away free thinking by reading people's minds. There is no way that Paladine would keep giving spellcasting ability to a cleric who did evil things, even if the guy thought it was the right thing to do.. not according to Dragonlance or D&D rules. So I dunno, I'll be interested in what they say about the Kingpriest in the Holy Order of Stars. I know I go on a tangent, but I see them two as very similar. I think some people are excused their problems and still are seen as "good", and others are just seen as not good.
I dunno, I don't mind as much that the Knights have people who don't take the prestige classes as much as it annoys me that now the KoS prestige classes are seen as "super" knights. If you're a "true knight" than thats what you take. I think that is horrible personally. And those arent my words, they are other peoples. It wouldnt bother me as much if the KoS prestige classes had no alignment restriction, but not every knight took them. This would still show diversity. And I really do wonder what PC's will come up with. I dont like having nongood people be able to join the organization. Maybe it takes the "goodness" away from it or something...
I do give kudos to the desgin team and realize that its hard to stat up people whene everyone has their own idea of what they should be. And I realize most people agree with the designer's choice.. but sometimes I wonder if people just agree with what is written more than actually thinking its right. If he was statted up with KoS prestige classes I really do think most people would like it, but there would be only a few who would say that he isn't good. But everyone would be happy with how it is. I dunno maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I see it.
Now, thign Kingpriest. I think he was actually Evil. He might have been a "Good Man", but that does not necessarily mean he has a good alignment. He was doing Evil things in the name of Good. Persecuting other races. Keeping tabs on people's thoughts. Thinking he was a god. Etc.
PS: Love Derek and ...Green...Dragon...Lord...Guy...Sally? Ken? Crap, I was just lost his name.
PPS: What's a winternorn? A PrC? A race? I thought he was an elf...
PPS: What's a winternorn? A PrC? A race? I thought he was an elf...
A prestige class from Towers of High Sorcery.
...however, if that is the case, would it not have been possible to stat Marshal Medan in AoM the same way? As in, have his alignment be "LN" and give him no actual Neraka Knight levels, rather than "LN" tendencies. (He certainly showed more than "tendencies" in the novels).
How can he be a solamic Knight, when he has not Solamic Class? Above all he is not a normaly Knight of Solamnia. He is a VIP Knight. How is the logic statement for this?
Can Player be Solamic Knights with human noble or legendary Tactican? And i cant understand the Reason with lawfull neutral. I must have read a other Book over him! Must then not be all Silvanestis Neutral?
Where are Ariakas' stats located? In the DLCS book?
In the book this preview is for, the War of the Lance sourcebook. He has levels in Thorn Knight to represent the fact that he was the prototype for that Order, granted enhanced spellcasting and abilities by Takhisis instead of Nuitari.
Cheers,
Cam
In the book this preview is for, the War of the Lance sourcebook. He has levels in Thorn Knight to represent the fact that he was the prototype for that Order, granted enhanced spellcasting and abilities by Takhisis instead of Nuitari.
Cheers,
Cam
Is there an old link or something to the earlier previews? I didn't see him in that preview link above (although I might have missed it).
Thanks for the reply.
Is there an old link or something to the earlier previews? I didn't see him in that preview link above (although I might have missed it).
He's not been previewed. Several people picked up a copy of the WOTL book at GenCon Indy this year, where it made an advanced release appearance ahead of the standard release date.
Cheers,
Cam
~~~
Do you have a copy Cam Banks ?
I was one of the contributing designers and I was at GenCon, so yes.
Cheers,
Cam
~~~
Laying aside the fact that you helped design it, and thus would like to promote the book, is it worth the money ? My wife was interested in the book.
She seems more interested in the setting than you are. Why don't we see her posting here?
It's the best Dragonlance product ever published. Laying aside the fact that I worked on it.
Cheers,
Cam
Laying aside the fact that you helped design it, and thus would like to promote the book, is it worth the money ? My wife was interested in the book.
I think it's one of the best 3.x D&D supplements I've ever seen, right up there with the 3.0 Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and the Dragonomicon (my other two favorites in terms of quality).
I had nothing to do with its production, but I'm a player in Cam's game so my XP might be adversely affected if I say otherwise. :D
(No, seriously, it's a great book. Really great.)
She seems more interested in the setting than you are. Why don't we see her posting here?
LoL, I introduced DragonLance to my wife and told her all about the setting(What books she should read, the main characters, the authors, etc.) and how well done it was. She is one of my DL players and she does not like Mina either.
About posting on the boards, she does not like hanging on the boards and does not do as much research on the setting as I do(Which makes sense being that I am the DM.). I use these boards mainly for research and to get information firsthand from the designers; which I in turn relay to my group.
It was actually my wife, initially, that said SP was going to be late with SoS(Due to the delays with KoD no doubt; a logical conclusion.).
It's the best Dragonlance product ever published. Laying aside the fact that I worked on it.
Cheers,
Cam
I was asking because right now it is a toss-up between the Towers of High Sorcery and War of the Lance. Right now it seems ToHS is more useful for the time period I am running my games in.
~~~
He's not been previewed. Several people picked up a copy of the WOTL book at GenCon Indy this year, where it made an advanced release appearance ahead of the standard release date.
Cheers,
Cam
Thanks, most appreciative for the information.
I was asking because right now it is a toss-up between the Towers of High Sorcery and War of the Lance. Right now it seems ToHS is more useful for the time period I am running my games in.
That is probably a fair assessment. Although I have to agree, WotL (so far) is one of the best DL products I own...far better than ToHS, in my opinion.
But...I don't know how helpful it will be to a 5th Age campaign. I think the ToHS will initially be more helpful.
That is probably a fair assessment. Although I have to agree, WotL (so far) is one of the best DL products I own...far better than ToHS, in my opinion.
But...I don't know how helpful it will be to a 5th Age campaign. I think the ToHS will initially be more helpful.
Indeed. I would love to have the War of the Lance sourcebook. It looks amazing, but the ToHS is hot too and I can actually use that in my campaigns now. The War of the Lance sourcebook will just end up looking pretty on my shelf next to my 3.0 Oriental Adventures accessory and a slew of 3E material I have not used yet.
~~~
Indeed. I would love to have the War of the Lance sourcebook. It looks amazing, but the ToHS is hot too and I can actually use that in my campaigns now. The War of the Lance sourcebook will just end up looking pretty on my shelf next to my 3.0 Oriental Adventures accessory and a slew of 3E material I have not used yet.
You could probably get a lot more use out of the WOTL book than the OA book. It has the gnomish tinker, minotaur marauder, chorister (Krynn's "divine bard"), and handler prestige classes in it, as well as the master core class (which is a PC version of the expert and covers professionals, sages, craftsmen and performers). It has a few new feats, although it reprints (and revises) the Age of Mortals feats too for those who don't have that book. New spells, new magic items (many of which are staples of the setting that haven't been converted yet), and a lot of personalities for whom the names can be changed and used for NPCs in your 5th Age campaign.
The information on the War of the Lance itself, the units, battles, and some of the specific geography might not be as immediately useful, but again there's a lot of rules material and background in those sections that can be used even in a campaign set after the War of Souls.
Cheers,
Cam
and a lot of personalities for whom the names can be changed and used for NPCs in your 5th Age campaign.
That's one of the best things about it, IMHO - there's a metric boatload of mid-level NPCs that you can use in just about any campaign, with trivial effort to file off the serial numbers.
Is there any information on how to run large scale battles, (high clerist's tower, the battle of Neraka?)
Do you have a copy of the Miniatures Handbook Taminier ? There are rules for mass combat in there.
~~~
Is there any information on how to run large scale battles, (high clerist's tower, the battle of Neraka?)
There are orders of battle for major armies, but it leaves the rules for running the battles up to you, since lots of people have different favorites. There are any number of great mass combat systems, from Miniatures Handbook to ... dang, I can't remember the name of it, Cam likes it - Blood of Heroes? The RPG King Arthur Pendragon has a good one - it's not d20, but it's easily adapted.
dang, I can't remember the name of it, Cam likes it - Blood of Heroes? The RPG King Arthur Pendragon has a good one - it's not d20, but it's easily adapted.
Fields of Blood, from Eden Studios. The spiritual heir to Birthright in 3rd edition, really. Much better than the Miniatures Handbook. Of course, I always end up running these fights more narratively than that, and so I usually just fudge it.
Cheers,
Cam
There are orders of battle for major armies, but it leaves the rules for running the battles up to you, since lots of people have different favorites. There are any number of great mass combat systems, from Miniatures Handbook to ... dang, I can't remember the name of it, Cam likes it - Blood of Heroes? The RPG King Arthur Pendragon has a good one - it's not d20, but it's easily adapted.
Fields of Blood is another good source for mass battle information.
~~~
Fields of Blood, from Eden Studios. The spiritual heir to Birthright in 3rd edition, really. Much better than the Miniatures Handbook. Of course, I always end up running these fights more narratively than that, and so I usually just fudge it.
Cheers,
Cam
Looks like Cam was quicker on the draw than I was.
~~~
Why does everyone have to be so unkind? If people have different posistions or opinions on things, then so be it. Shamless self aggranddizment and patting of oneself on the back, is never acceptable in mixed company.
Its in our blood to be unkind to those that have different opinions then ourselves. Look at history how many wars have been faught because of this?
I agree that somepeople will be part of an organization without actually having traits of most people in the organization. Take for instance alot of the Knights of Neraka. Some of those guys show absolutly no, none Lawful traits yet they are still considered Dark Knights. Sir Rennard is another great example of a K.O.S. without levels in the class since he was a cleric of Morigon. BUT I believe that Sir Rennard at one time DID have levels in the K.O.S. at one point in his life.
Now as far as Derek Crownguard goes I do believe he had a good alignment. But he wasn't Lawful Good. I believe he was Neutral Good. He knew the Measure, and How to twist the Measure to his needs. That point is obivious here. I do NOT believe that a Lawful Neutral person will twist the laws to benefit themselves. Lawful Evil I could see bending the laws or measures to benefit themselves. But like I said I think Derek is overall a good person.
Derek did not murder, ****, pillage, or go out of his way to screw over people for "fun". This man really did believe he was the right man for the job and that his definition of "good" and what was "right" was the best. Also even good people have ambitions. This man really did believe that he had a right to lead the Knighthood and had the most smarts for it. So he maneuvered with his connections to make it so. I dont see this as not good.. people use their "contacts" all the time to get things done, get a job, or just be better in life. He really did believe Gunther was outdated, Sturm didn't belong in the Knighthood, etc.. he didnt do these things to be evil at them or just for the fun of it. He truly believed his vision could bring the most good to the world. As i've said a million times, it isn't that much different than the Kingpriest. The only difference was the Kingpriest had the backing of Paladine at one time, whereas Derek is in a cruel world with real life events happening everyday and he's trying to stop the tide of evil coming.
Whats weird is I don't even like Derek that much, I don't think anyone does. But I don't think the faults of being ambitious, outdated, and snobby inheritantly make you not good.
Whats weird is I don't even like Derek that much, I don't think anyone does. But I don't think the faults of being ambitious, outdated, and snobby inheritantly make you evil.
You know what is funny ? I said the exact same thing about a certain character in one of Elaine Cunningham's FR novels. The person was considered a good character but still did things to get what she wanted. Even if some of them were less than honorable.
~~~
Which elf are you talking about Arilyn Moonblade? Or Liriel? Maybe someone else.. I know Liriel is neutral.. but Arilyn would be a good case of a person who is good but does what she wants.
My problem also comes from people like Linsha Majere who is "good" yet doesnt even follow orders from her superiors because she didnt agree with them. To me thats following your own agenda. Thats not very lawful either.
I see it time and time again.. everyone has a different opinion on alignment and people get muddled. One person thinks if you kill someone your evil, another person thinks you can still be really good and kill if it comes to that. I dunno Dereks faults to me don't scream "I can't be good". This guy really did believe he was doing everything that was right. And it wouldnt be such a big deal if people didnt tout how good the Kingpriest really was when he did what he wanted.. but soince he thought he was doing good he was still good. It bothers me.. its like its a double standard.
Which elf are you talking about Arilyn Moonblade? Or Liriel? Maybe someone else.. I know Liriel is neutral.. but Arilyn would be a good case of a person who is good but does what she wants.
Neither. I am referring to Danilo Thann's mother in the novel titled: The Dream Spheres.
I think each DM has their view of what good and evil is; I love the alignment system for the Dungeons and Dragons game it helps to define heroic deeds and such. What I do not like is when someone misinterprets alignment as being a mental straitjacket.
~~~
is aligment something you change in a game quite often?
Not really. I have really good role players and they base the alignment on the traits they give their characters. I actually have them take a test in order to ascertain their character's alignment.
Some people see alignment as just another mechanic; usually this view comes from d20 Modern or GURPS(Both lack-luster games IMO) players that do not understand the heroic nature of Dungeons and Dragons. Good and evil are very real in the D&D game and alignment addresses this quite nicely.
~~~
Linsha on the other hand neglects her equipment and expects others to replace it for her. She spends most of her time skulking around and playing the role of "shadowy figure of justice" even when it is completely unecessary. She disregards orders, and plots half-baked schemes that get other people killed.
I mean, if I was Sir Remmik I'd mistrust her too. How did he get her? Oh she was shipped out of Sanction after a stint of impersonating a thug on the streets of Sanction. Presumably that involved street enforcement work, racketeering, and theft. The purpose of this deception? To spy on the rightful ruler of Sanction and to attempt to overthrow his government. Even though he is keeping the Knights of Nereka from gaining access to the Newsea. Ah but she claims she was actually receiving orders from three shadowy figures that she can't identify, but whom she is sure came from Liam Erhling's inner circle.
Yeah, he was a moron for being suspicious when her dagger was found in his commanding officer. Of course, as the new commanding officer it was completely unnacceptable that he appointed the council that would give her a knight's trial in a case that didn't involve him. At least so Linsha thinks. Since she doesn't like her commanding officer she doesn't have to accept their judgement because they were selected by him.
Worst knight ever.
Alignment is something that I do not mind changing for a player. If they are going to be doing evil acts then I change their alignments accordingly, from good to N and then to evil. It can cause troubles with clerics and WoHS but oh well, if you do those things that arent good, why should you get to call yourself good?
Of course I do not mind changing it if neccessity dictates it should be changed. I actually like when an aligment change is neccessary because some players end up walking around still thinking they are good even though they have been doing things that are evil.
It can make up for some interesting role playing when the DM switches the alignment of PCs; for instance remember the little gadget that Shayla has when they meet the elves in the enclave. Imagine what would happen if a PC that was once good was not allowed into the enclave because he had turned to a life of evil ?
~~~
I see faults in all the knights I've read about and it bothers me to no end that Derek is considered a knight.. but not a "True Knight" (your guys' words not mine) because he felt he was the best job and tried to put himself in the position to make that happen. Everyone has prejudices, sins, quirks, etc.. and no one acts the best under every situation. This man had to have done good deeds throughout his life in order to get so far in the Knighthood.. it couldnt be *all* his nobility. So what if he also gained personal pleasure from advancing so far.. of course he does stuff for himself.. yet he still risked his life on a constant basis. This man risked his life when he went to the High Clerists Tower and rode out, eventually dieing. But he also thought he was doing the right thing and trying to rout evil.
You start to see a trend in Knights who don't do what they are told.. which people think is so heroic.
This is the new thing, especially with female characters, the whole defiant character/woman thing. Alot of movies(and novels) are using it(With mainly young characters and female characters.): Underworld(Vampire movie where a female betrays her own and slaps all of the male characters around. Basically it is Charlie's Angels with fangs.), all of those corny sitcoms on WB and any other TV station, the multitude of corny talk show personas, etc.
In this movie(and novel) day and age to be so called "strong" is to be defiant and listen to noone but your own selfish inner desires. They put that in every movie, novel, and TV show. Expect more of it; nooone is original nowadays.
~~~
I felt great sympathy reading "Flight of the Fallen" when it came to Sir Remmik. He was 10 times the knight Linsha is. He keeps his equipment in good order, cares about tradition and discipline, respects and looks after his men, and deals with people honestly.
Well, let's forget the fact that he had an extremely poor working relationship with Iyesta, the Legion of Steel and the militia of the Missing City.
Let's forget the fact that he was frozen with inaction when the Tarmak attacked the city.
I wouldnt actually call the WB the same thing as Dragonlance. DL has believable characters, it is romantic fantasy. How many times can Superman do things in the WB and how many vampires can be slain? Without development then the characters die. 20 years of DL 3 or so of Superman on the WB?
Hmm nowhere in my previous post did I say that the WB Superman series(Which is actually known as "Smallville".) was entirely the same as the Dragonlance series; I did say:"This is the new thing, especially with female characters, the whole defiant character/woman thing. Alot of movies(and novels) are using it(With mainly young characters and female characters.): Underworld(Vampire movie where a female betrays her own and slaps all of the male characters around. Basically it is Charlie's Angels with fangs.), all of those corny sitcoms on WB and any other TV station, the multitude of corny talk show personas, etc.
In this movie(and novel) day and age to be so called "strong" is to be defiant and listen to noone but your own selfish inner desires. They put that in every movie, novel, and TV show. Expect more of it; nooone is original nowadays."
The above refers to how movies(and novels) within this day and age(as quoted above) seem to follow the notion that to be so called "strong" one must always be defiant and listen to noone but their own selfish inner desires. Every show(or novel) or darn near every show(or novel) today focuses on the whole defiant young people/woman thing to the point where the action and the storylines are lacking because of it. There may be a few movies that have not fallen for this overused plot but they are few and far in between.
Addressing the whole Superman vs. WB matter you concocted in detail:
Superman has been out for much longer than 3 years and way before the WB got their hands on it. Also Superman does not represent the entire repertoire of programs broadcasted on television or the WB for that matter.
~~~
Yeah, the darn cheek. Women are supposed to be demure little things who offer the men pie.
Your taking my statement to an extreme. How did you take a statement about overused plotlines(The whole defiant young person/woman character plot which has been used over and over again.) as a signal to promote women's lib(Or what you may see as their oppression) ? Radicals supporting women's rights(Or those against said rights) should be hanging out on NOW.org not the Dungeons and Dragons boards to have their voice(s) heard.
~~~
In the book this preview is for, the War of the Lance sourcebook. He has levels in Thorn Knight to represent the fact that he was the prototype for that Order, granted enhanced spellcasting and abilities by Takhisis instead of Nuitari.
Cheers,
Cam
Ha freaking za! It's about time somebody nailed down what kind of magic that guy had. some said priest, some said mage, but nothing made sense... so.. is he above 20th? c'mon dish dish!
And I'm pleased to see that Dragonhelm and chaps like you have gone from your beginnings on fan sites elsewhere (Nexus, although I don't know if you were there) to be actual contributers to the sourcebooks. Psst. Hey, do me a favor. check out my previous posts where I got into debates with other folks concerning this board. in the end I have shown a fairly good knowledge of dragonlance to the point that aside from actual sourcebook and Nexus faculty, ummm...(how to put this in a way that doesn't make me sound like a conceited poopey head...) I argueabley know the most about the series. (I put "argueably" in there so nobody flame me)
ummmm....can I have a job? :D :D :D
Well, let's forget the fact that he had an extremely poor working relationship with Iyesta, the Legion of Steel and the militia of the Missing City.
Let's forget the fact that he was frozen with inaction when the Tarmak attacked the city.
Oh to be sure. Let us also not forget Sir Remmik was a stone cold idiot. He was still 10 times the knight that Linsha is. Linsha is intelligent, knows how to fight... but she isn't a knight. She is a ranger/rogue. If we are going to start differentiating "true knights" from "knights in name only" Linsha is definately one to prune. She has no business having Knight of the Rose prestige class levels. Heck, she certainly doesn't need them for anything she does in the books. Like I said, Ranger/Rogue would be a perfect fit. Animal companion, small number of divine spells, some woodcraft and surivival skills, light armour, and a dirty fighter.
some said priest, some said mage, but nothing made sense... so.. is he above 20th? c'mon dish dish!
Yep.
(how to put this in a way that doesn't make me sound like a conceited poopey head...) I argueabley know the most about the series.
Yeah...that can't be done.
Nothing like Linsha having her knight levels taken away will happen because of her last name. Is she even a popular character?
Her books have been extremely popular. Many people enjoyed City of the Lost and are enjoying Flight of the Fallen. One could surmise that she is a popular character.
Mary Herbert needs to be reminded that Linsha is a 30-something Knight of the Rose, and not the 17 year old street urchin adventurer that Herbert desperately wants her to be.
Sir Remmik, I would say, is one of the best examples of the "Peter" principle we've seen in Dragonlance. Remmik was an excellent administrator and would work effectively "behind the scenes" in the bureaucracy of the knighthood. However he should never have been put in a position of leadership, especially in a circle like the one in Mirage. A dragon-hater in the realm of Iyesta? Whose crazy idea was that?
I'd go with whatever the official version is and leave it at that. I would assume that the novel's author signed off on the WotL sourcebook and she would know Derek's alignment better than any of us.
I think trying to debate Derek's alignment is a waste of time since all we have to go is a few scant passages from a novel that took place in a period of tremendous chaos (meaning his true intentions could easily be confused with the pressures of the time).
Well...there is a whole book practically dedicated to the a-hole: Oath and the Measure. That's where you get the best glimpse into his character and how he uses...uh, I mean follows, the Measure. ;)
I dont like using the Meetings Sextet and Preludes as references. They are horrible with incosistancies and heck even Weis has made other books to go over what was written by other people. They make an all right reead at best.. but they are too messed up. I'm sure some people consider those books as canon, but I think its horrible.
If you do go by the Chronicles, Derek's alignment does seem a little dark.. but I still maintain you can't just label a guy "not good" because he has ambition and will go to great measures to make sure hes on top. This guy didnt kill people, pillage, etc. He really did believe in his arrogance that he was the best man and should get there. Almost that the ends justifies the means. The Kingpriest thought that the ends of a good world justified what he was doing also. I dunno..
Bah all those books in that series are mainly rubbish. It almost looks as if those authors barely read the Chronicles/Legends, if they even did.
Uh...then where are you getting all this "Derek is a strict follower of the Measure" stuff? It certainly doesn't really appear in Chronicles (at least not to the extent that you were talking about earlier). The only place I'd seen this was in OatM. Which, personally, I think is my favorite of the Meetings series (even if it is a DL rehash of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight...but that really doesn't bother me in the least). Although, I do believe that it is better suited to have taken place after Darkness and Light and before Dragons of Autumn Twilight.
Is the book out today?
I think the distributors have access to it today. Game shops might still take a few days to get their shipments from the distributors.
I think the distributors have access to it today. Game shops might still take a few days to get their shipments from the distributors.
Really? That's cool. For some reason I thought it had been pushed back a week. Not that I care, because I already have it. MWAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry...
For some reason I thought it had been pushed back a week.
Heh - as much as sime might love to say told-you-so...
http://www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=808
Taminier - Distributors are the middlemen who take from the publisher and distribute it to retail shops like game stores and book stores. They're the people your game store gets it from.
Well...there is a whole book practically dedicated to...
Ah, I see. I guess that provides some greater insight into his character. Although I would take it with a grain of salt b/c it's not exactly canon...
The Meetings Sextet and Preludes are horrible stories when it comes to cannon, but just fine for people if they want a read. I'm planning on driving to my parents house to look through my novels later on tonight and I'll try to find even more inconsistancies. As I said, most of those authors barely seem like they read Chronicles/Legends. I personally take Derek's attitude from Chronicles, which while it isn't the holiest, I still believe shows yes he has ambition and tries to be at the top, but doesnt show anything that would prevent him from being good. He does what needs to be done because he believes he's right... kind of a Kingpriest kind of figure. The ends justifies the means. If he's not good because of this part of his personality, I'm hoping the kingpriest is explained in Holy Order of Stars how his ends justifies the means thinking keeps him being good. I dunno, I plan on rereading over the Chronicles for Derek's parts and see. I think somewhere Gunther says that Derek is a good but ambitious man, but maybe I'm pulling that out of thin air.. memory gets a little fuzzy. Or maybe I'm just holding onto something that I shouldnt be.. I think I'm more defending a person's right to have quirks that may not be "for the best good", but the person can still be good. No one is perfect...
Similarly Soul Forge goes against Dark Heart, and so on.
The argument can go either way, easily.
But yea you are right. As I said before I find the Meetings Sextet and Preludes horrible and some of the reason I think the later books maybe go against them is because maybe (this is speculation) they were given the go ahead to "rewrite" it. They are better books also.. in my opinion.
What is sad is I have read all the books.. but rarely do they come close to the Chronicles/Legends. What bothers me the most is more than half of them seem as if the authors havent even read the 6 books.. which I find just amazing. I can see inconsistancies happening between two books that are more obscure... but who knows. I'm sure its all just my opinion.
as for inconsistancies, you'll have to look long and hard for books in the saga that arent inconsistant with each other.
seems that authors arent as obsessively well read as some of us are =)
as for inconsistancies, you'll have to look long and hard for books in the saga that arent inconsistant with each other.
Dude...you should be a politician...that's the best double-speak I've ever heard! (well, read) I've analized that statement for about 5 minutes now...and I still have no idea what it was you were trying to say. LOL!
here, i'll even do it for you. i'm going to take my trusty d20 and toss it at my bookshelf twice and compare the two books it hits.
ok, so i won't actually do that. but you get the point.
grab any two dragonlance books by different authors, and show me how they are consistant with each other beyond the broadest world outline.
Okay...that's what I figured you were saying. Why single out saga? (just 'cause they're the newest, and therefore things aren't getting better?)
It certainly is frustrating. For years they keep saying, "We're turning over a new leaf...no more inconsistencies. It's a new era of continuity...you're gonna love it." Even Sovereign Press spewed this back before the DLCS came out...and even they can't keep it straight (heck...ToHS had a hard enough time keeping consistent with itself).
You gotta wonder sometimes if they're even trying anymore. The latest series has some of the worst continuity errors in recent years (the Age of Mortals series). And I'm a little tired of, "But there's so much out there...how can you expect us to keep it striaght?" Well...there's a crap load of fans that do it...so why can't they?
.......
Damn...I kinda went off into my own little world there for a second. Sorry about that. I'm calm...really I am. It's just frustrating sometimes.
and honestly, it's getting a lot better. the newest novels are very well consistant within each other, and really nicely intertwined. i think we're in for a change in a good way.
ah, yeah brim, i said "the saga", which refers to the entire body of Dragonlance, and not SAGA, the short lived and greatly missed early fifth age =)
Man, am I off this afternoon...
the newest novels are very well consistant within each other, and really nicely intertwined.
You mean like they've hit a break point? As in, "Okay...here are the new books...yes they might not be all that consistent with what's come before, but starting now...we are using this continuity. No questions asked, and we're not going to contradict ourselves beyond this point.""
That'd be nice. At least it would mean moving forward with one vision (the past is rather a mess anyway...) ;)
heck, we even see their philosophy about the past with Palin saying that it has been sealed off. Great idea. quarantine the canonical mess and only look forward from now on.
Do either Amazon or Barnes and Noble have access to the DL War of the Lance book yet?
Unfortunately it seems that the book trade shipment of War of the Lance will be delayed slightly, though hobby game stores should have it on shelves in the U.S. this week. Thanks!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
You gotta wonder sometimes if they're even trying anymore. The latest series has some of the worst continuity errors in recent years (the Age of Mortals series). And I'm a little tired of, "But there's so much out there...how can you expect us to keep it striaght?" Well...there's a crap load of fans that do it...so why can't they?
.......
Damn...I kinda went off into my own little world there for a second. Sorry about that. I'm calm...really I am. It's just frustrating sometimes.
Why can't they keep it straight? It is too much to handle. As one of those fans who tried to keep it all straight, it stopped being worth it, especially with Fan ire. Even I missed stuff.
Weldon
Why can't they keep it straight? It is too much to handle. As one of those fans who tried to keep it all straight, it stopped being worth it, especially with Fan ire. Even I missed stuff.
Okay...you know how much I love your timeline, Weldon. So, that's not even an issue here as far as I'm concerned.
Sometimes though...I just don't see an excuse for some of the things that come through.
Here's one that's been on my mind lately. The Tower of Daltigoth. This Tower is proof possitive (I think) that there is no single person that is in charge of quality control for each world. Two books, being written at relatively the same time, both involve the Tower of Daltigoth. It is an obscure Tower, very little is known about it. (although some information was given in The Last Tower) If there was someone responsible for quality control...it should have been like Mt. Nevermind inside their head (bells and whistles, if that was to subtle :D). Both authors should not have been given free reign on this Tower. It's an important piece of missing Dragonlance knowledge...one that fans have been looking forward to for a while...and when the novels hit...the Tower in both books (which should be the same) are absolutely nothing alike.
Now...maybe I'm just nit-picking...but seriously, I don't think that kind of stuff should happen.
I guess I'm just sick of the empty promises that we keep getting about how it is going to be better. The continuity errors aren't getting better...they're just not involving the Heroes of the Lance anymore.
Weldon, trust me when i say that a lot of us appreciated your timeline, and would love to see it pop up on the net again, even unfinished.
Bah. As long as fans won't play well together, and can't resolve their differences peacefully, it's better to keep it dead. It's available at www.archive.org.
Besides, beyond the fan stuff, i'd rather not have anything that competes with the DLCS. The DLCS has some of my notes, and the Tower of High Sorcery has some key items in there too. If someone else (*coughUzielcough*) wants the mantle and the headaches, he's welcome.
I do have to admit, DL fandom is nowhere as viscerally cruel as The Sims fandom.
Weldon
Well, for the last year, I've been working on Sims 2. And it's blown sales records. *woot* But, i've seen complaints put DL fans to shame. We're talking about customers who have no idea the hours of lost sleep trying to make customers happy. It's given me the perspective: no matter how cruddy we think they did in a product, customers really have no idea how much love and care the company really did put in the product unless customers participated in the process and know the trials and tribulations.
My really big wish is that fans always keep an open-mind despite how cruddy it can be. I know the folks who made War of the Lance really care how you feel, heck many of them are fellow fans. I'm always happy with knowing these rules and stats are their interpretations from a tale to game physics. I haven't got my copy of War of the Lance yet. I'll have it hopefully by the end of the day.
Weldon
) Sure it spawned a theological debate on the knighthood in general...but still...that just shows how powerful these things can be sometimes.And then I had to go off about continuity and how no one cares. I know they care (well, I certainly know the SP people care...and the authors care...I'm just extrapolating that the editors care, despite what I inferred earlier)...it's just frustrating sometimes, that's all. But, like always, I'll just move stuff around in my mind until it all fits nice and neat.
I guess it's just the way I am...very detail oriented...an*l I think is the word most people would use, actually. When it's all said and done, I guess it doesn't really matter if the Tower is described as one way in one book but another way in a different book...or whether the Towers were built because of the cities or because there was some celestial alignments that foretold where they would be built. That's just the detail mongerer in me. (I guess it's a good thing I went into detail work...)
Oh...right...on topic...uh...War of the Lance ROXXXORS!!!!!1!!
?
If not, then dude, stop. You know the answer to every one of your questions, because it has all been asked, by you and others, many times before.
Yep.
Well, we could always have a trivia contest, a king of the mountain kinda thing...on another thread.
but it is possible because I mean I seem to know more about the cosmology and, really, the basics of the series aside from folks who actually work on Nexus or the sourcebooks. (this counts you, Brim, although I'd love to pick your brain). I mean this is something I wanted to say since I started posting in this area a few months ago. I thought everybody here would know way more than me and I was instead dismayed to see that people hadn't even grasped the "101"s of the series, the basics.
can I have a job?
Oh and Weldon, your link won't work!!!!!!
i don't understand you, tamaron. i know you're reading the same information and the same posts that I am. And i know we've covered pretty much everything that is in the wotl book. Are you just not comprehending it? Do you have short term memory problems? If you really have some medical issue, then i'm happy to help you, and indeed, apologise for misunderstanding earlier.
If not, then dude, stop. You know the answer to every one of your questions, because it has all been asked, by you and others, many times before.
Whoa! Calm down T, maybe the poor guy just forgot or something ?
~~~
Well, we could always have a trivia contest, a king of the mountain kinda thing...on another thread.
but it is possible because I mean I seem to know more about the cosmology and, really, the basics of the series aside from folks who actually work on Nexus or the sourcebooks. (this counts you, Brim, although I'd love to pick your brain). I mean this is something I wanted to say since I started posting in this area a few months ago. I thought everybody here would know way more than me and I was instead dismayed to see that people hadn't even grasped the "101"s of the series, the basics.
Whoa there, homeboy. That's a really broad statement to make =)
What gives you the basis for your assertion? If it's collection size, then there are a lot of us with complete sets of everything ever made with a DL logo on it. If it's how well read we are, then the same applies. You need to give a metric explaining why you know more about DL than me or brim or cam or uziel or weldon or whomever. Saying you know more than Margaret isn't really a big deal, since she freely admits that a bunch of fans are more hardcore than she is. Prove yourself, friend, since i've never actually seen you post before this past week, and i've been on every major DL forum since 96 =)
And what I mean to get across is not a stupid claim of ego, I mean it as well, a reprimand. I came to sites like this for many years and watched in awe of some of the posters. Other than you elder tipes, many of the newer dl fans were completly oblivious to some of the basics of the series. Finally I thought after years of watching this, that I would put in my two scents. I started by talking about simple cosmology questions and the force of neutrality in the series. Everybody else looked at me as if I had two heads. I'm not really trying to play "nerd king of the mountain" its just that some of the older members apparently aren't setting some of the most simple dl questions or claims some newer fans have tried to make. I'm not talking about dl collections, mine's pretty sorry. I'm talking about the 101's, the basics. I've heard people on this board talk about how refreshing it is that the "Neutralist perspective" in dl has ended. I'm flabergasted and a little apauled. That's like saying "I'm glad all that romance is out of Romeo and Juliet". I'm just trying to get some of you elder fans out their to raise your hackles up, to get you folks to set some things straight whenever a newer fan is confused about something. Every time I've tried to help with a question on this board (do a search on me, if your interested), I get met with confusion and a misguided notion that I'm trying to start a lively debate rather than hand out facts of the series to answer thier questions.
Thanks,
Ares
I really don't understand what you mean by basics though. care to explain? In brim's thread is fine, since he asked first.
Heh. I kid. Actually, I like cake.
:D