KoS Variant - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

KoS Variant

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2004 8:52:13 I'm working on an idea for DL, creating a variant for characters who want to pursue a career with the KoS in eras without gods, or who simply want an option to spellcasting. Now, the KoC class doesn't really need changes, but the Knight of the Sword does, and the Knight of the Rose to a lesser extent needs some minor alterations for the variant option. For some reason, the ideas just aren't coming, so I decided to pitch the idea here, and see what ideas a group could come up with.
#2
cam_banks
Sep 30, 2004 9:04:11 We have exactly this kind of variant (in fact, it's two variants in one) in the War of the Lance sourcebook, to be released tomorrow and in stores soon.

One variant blends all three prestige classes into one combined 10-level prestige class, while the other removes the spellcaster and Will save requirement from both the Sword and Rose knights and gives them basic clerical spellcasting that will stack with any other spellcaster levels, as well as on their own.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
Dragonhelm
Sep 30, 2004 9:19:07
One variant blends all three prestige classes into one combined 10-level prestige class, while the other removes the spellcaster and Will save requirement from both the Sword and Rose knights and gives them basic clerical spellcasting that will stack with any other spellcaster levels, as well as on their own.

Cheers,
Cam

Cam, just a note, I don't think the Will save requirement was removed from the book, although it should have been. Double-check that, but I believe that might be something for errata.

I tried converting an old Sword Knight character using the variant Sword Knight spellcasting abilities, and it turned out quite well - better than the DLCS version. I was quite happy with it.
#4
cam_banks
Sep 30, 2004 9:31:38
Cam, just a note, I don't think the Will save requirement was removed from the book, although it should have been. Double-check that, but I believe that might be something for errata.

I think that it was one of the very last editing changes that were made before the book went to press, but now I'm not sure. I'll cross my fingers.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
Dragonhelm
Sep 30, 2004 10:00:09
I think that it was one of the very last editing changes that were made before the book went to press, but now I'm not sure. I'll cross my fingers.

It was supposed to be, but I don't think it got done. Double-check that.
#6
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2004 12:54:29 Hey, thanks. That'll save me some work for my games. I've currently been running a campaign that takes place beyond the War of Souls, but I am going to start a Fourth Age one soon, so I am definitely going to get the War of the Lance Sourcebook when it hits the shelves here.
#7
ferratus
Sep 30, 2004 13:15:40
while the other removes the spellcaster and Will save requirement from both the Sword and Rose knights and gives them basic clerical spellcasting that will stack with any other spellcaster levels, as well as on their own.

Cool, like the Prophet prestige class in "Testament". That's an improvement. Though I really wish there was a non-clerical spellcasting Knight of the Rose, because Knights of the Rose who cast clerical magic remove the flavour of the Knights of the Sword being the clerical branch of the Knights of Solamnia.

Now there is no real reason to join the Knights of the Sword. In the old days you joined the Knights of the Crown to be a soldier, the Knights of the Sword to be a militant cleric and the Knights of the Rose to be a leader and commander.
#8
true_blue
Sep 30, 2004 13:27:40 The Rose Knights getting spells is horrible. The Knight of the Sword used to be my favorite and it is totally eclipsed by the Knight of the Rose. I like to see diversity. Another problem is the Knight of the Sword is exactly like the cleric.. I mean they can Smite Evil... and they gain Soul of the Knighthood. But besides that... nothing. It bothers me because the Knight of the Crown and even the Knight of the Rose were so well written. Just seems they were like screw it..we'll make them a cleric. Bah if I want to play a multiclasses Knight of the Crown/Cleric I will.. you dont need to doll it up in a prestige class.

I'd be happy if they took the spellcasting away from the Rose and added commander effects, something like what the commanders in D&D Miniatures gets. Allies get certain bonuses for being in close proximity of the Rose knight. I think this would add nice flavour and make it literally Crowns are soldiers, Swords are militant clerics(but have a few different powers =p), and the Roses are the leaders and commanders who help them fight better.
#9
cam_banks
Sep 30, 2004 15:39:48
I'd be happy if they took the spellcasting away from the Rose and added commander effects, something like what the commanders in D&D Miniatures gets. Allies get certain bonuses for being in close proximity of the Rose knight. I think this would add nice flavour and make it literally Crowns are soldiers, Swords are militant clerics(but have a few different powers =p), and the Roses are the leaders and commanders who help them fight better.

Rose knights under the variant gain cleric spellcasting at half the Rose knight's class level, while Sword knights gain cleric spellcasting at every Sword knight level. These levels stack, but it does mean the Rose knight is not as powerful as written in the DLCS.

Also, the other variant of the knights of Solamnia (the singular one that handles all three Orders) has no cleric spellcasting at all, useful for WOTL era knights (and used for all the knights in the Personalities section, such as Gunthar).

Cheers,
Cam
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2004 17:45:23 Was it ever demonstrated that the Knights of the Rose had access to clerical spells?
#11
Dragonhelm
Sep 30, 2004 18:50:16
Was it ever demonstrated that the Knights of the Rose had access to clerical spells?

Heroes of Hope had spellcasting Rose Knights.
#12
ferratus
Sep 30, 2004 19:19:36 Yeah, but the reason you need to gain more spellcasting levels at all as a Rose Knight is obviously because the requirement is still there to multiclass through the Knight of the Crown and Knight of the Sword levels to get there. That is the only way I can see justifying what would seem to be a highly unpopular decision to keep the Knight of the Rose spellcasting levels in. After all, having 2 low levels of spellcasting in there becomes pretty useless pretty fast at high levels.

The reason we go through that way is to try and keep that damnable 1st edition level mechanic of progressing through all three orders. It would be a lot cleaner to simply allow players to choose which order he wants to stay in as his prestige class to allow for more multiclassing options. Like sticking a few legendary tactician levels on while still allowing him to max out his Rose Knight levels.

If we really needed to show that a person spent 6 months training with the other two orders, it could just as well be done with the "Squire of the Crown", Acolyte of the Sword" and "Novitiate of the Rose" feats.
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2004 21:01:16 Personally, I always liked the idea of having to go through the Knight of the Crown and the Knight of the Sword to become a Knight of the Rose. This fact made actually attaining Rose Knight status feel prestigious, like it should. If you simply had the feats and made it easier to become a Rose Knight, then everyone and his brother would become a Rose Knight, and it wouldn't be an elite class anymore. Also, not being a fan of playing spellcasting characters of any type (nothing against them, they're just not my style), the idea of having a non-spellcasting variant for the KoS is my preferred venue. I love the options .
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2004 22:08:56 Personally I think that there should have been a feature of the PrCs that allowed you to trade in as many levels of the lower orders levels in return for levels in the new order.....much like a paladin can turn in paladin levels if he becomes a blackguard.
#15
true_blue
Oct 01, 2004 0:04:40 I like the idea of the three different PrC's. I've never had a problem with that. I even liked the Knight of the Crown PrC. The Knight of the Sword needs more abilities to set it apart from a cleric. As I said before, it seems they just got lazy and decided.. "eh they are supposed to be like clerics.. just give them the same things". The Knight of the Rose would be good if it didnt step on the toes of the Knight of the Sword. I'm looking foward to tommorrow so that i can see the different Knight of the Rose. I'm thinking I'll like it a lot more.

I like the 3 prestige class system and being in one before the other. I even like how you have to be one level of KoC to get in the KoS, and 3 levels in KoS to be a KoR. I do think that the requirement to already have to have levels in mystic/cleric should be taken out. If there are no levels beforehand.. it just starts out as a first level cleric/mystic.
#16
zombiegleemax
Oct 01, 2004 7:39:30
Personally I think that there should have been a feature of the PrCs that allowed you to trade in as many levels of the lower orders levels in return for levels in the new order.....much like a paladin can turn in paladin levels if he becomes a blackguard.

Actually Serena, I had never really considered that. It's a great idea, and I think I'll apply that to my game, if ever my players feel like going far in the KoS.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2004 8:52:13	I'm working on an idea for DL, creating a variant for characters who want to pursue a career with the KoS in eras without gods, or who simply want an option to spellcasting. Now, the KoC class doesn't really need changes, but the Knight of the Sword does, and the Knight of the Rose to a lesser extent needs some minor alterations for the variant option. For some reason, the ideas just aren't coming, so I decided to pitch the idea here, and see what ideas a group could come up with.
#2 cam_banks Sep 30, 2004 9:04:11	We have exactly this kind of variant (in fact, it's two variants in one) in the War of the Lance sourcebook, to be released tomorrow and in stores soon. One variant blends all three prestige classes into one combined 10-level prestige class, while the other removes the spellcaster and Will save requirement from both the Sword and Rose knights and gives them basic clerical spellcasting that will stack with any other spellcaster levels, as well as on their own. Cheers, Cam
#3 Dragonhelm Sep 30, 2004 9:19:07	One variant blends all three prestige classes into one combined 10-level prestige class, while the other removes the spellcaster and Will save requirement from both the Sword and Rose knights and gives them basic clerical spellcasting that will stack with any other spellcaster levels, as well as on their own. Cheers, Cam Cam, just a note, I don't think the Will save requirement was removed from the book, although it should have been. Double-check that, but I believe that might be something for errata. I tried converting an old Sword Knight character using the variant Sword Knight spellcasting abilities, and it turned out quite well - better than the DLCS version. I was quite happy with it.
#4 cam_banks Sep 30, 2004 9:31:38	Cam, just a note, I don't think the Will save requirement was removed from the book, although it should have been. Double-check that, but I believe that might be something for errata. I think that it was one of the very last editing changes that were made before the book went to press, but now I'm not sure. I'll cross my fingers. Cheers, Cam
#5 Dragonhelm Sep 30, 2004 10:00:09	I think that it was one of the very last editing changes that were made before the book went to press, but now I'm not sure. I'll cross my fingers. It was supposed to be, but I don't think it got done. Double-check that.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2004 12:54:29	Hey, thanks. That'll save me some work for my games. I've currently been running a campaign that takes place beyond the War of Souls, but I am going to start a Fourth Age one soon, so I am definitely going to get the War of the Lance Sourcebook when it hits the shelves here.
#7 ferratus Sep 30, 2004 13:15:40	while the other removes the spellcaster and Will save requirement from both the Sword and Rose knights and gives them basic clerical spellcasting that will stack with any other spellcaster levels, as well as on their own. Cool, like the Prophet prestige class in "Testament". That's an improvement. Though I really wish there was a non-clerical spellcasting Knight of the Rose, because Knights of the Rose who cast clerical magic remove the flavour of the Knights of the Sword being the clerical branch of the Knights of Solamnia. Now there is no real reason to join the Knights of the Sword. In the old days you joined the Knights of the Crown to be a soldier, the Knights of the Sword to be a militant cleric and the Knights of the Rose to be a leader and commander.
#8 true_blue Sep 30, 2004 13:27:40	The Rose Knights getting spells is horrible. The Knight of the Sword used to be my favorite and it is totally eclipsed by the Knight of the Rose. I like to see diversity. Another problem is the Knight of the Sword is exactly like the cleric.. I mean they can Smite Evil... and they gain Soul of the Knighthood. But besides that... nothing. It bothers me because the Knight of the Crown and even the Knight of the Rose were so well written. Just seems they were like screw it..we'll make them a cleric. Bah if I want to play a multiclasses Knight of the Crown/Cleric I will.. you dont need to doll it up in a prestige class. I'd be happy if they took the spellcasting away from the Rose and added commander effects, something like what the commanders in D&D Miniatures gets. Allies get certain bonuses for being in close proximity of the Rose knight. I think this would add nice flavour and make it literally Crowns are soldiers, Swords are militant clerics(but have a few different powers =p), and the Roses are the leaders and commanders who help them fight better.
#9 cam_banks Sep 30, 2004 15:39:48	I'd be happy if they took the spellcasting away from the Rose and added commander effects, something like what the commanders in D&D Miniatures gets. Allies get certain bonuses for being in close proximity of the Rose knight. I think this would add nice flavour and make it literally Crowns are soldiers, Swords are militant clerics(but have a few different powers =p), and the Roses are the leaders and commanders who help them fight better. Rose knights under the variant gain cleric spellcasting at half the Rose knight's class level, while Sword knights gain cleric spellcasting at every Sword knight level. These levels stack, but it does mean the Rose knight is not as powerful as written in the DLCS. Also, the other variant of the knights of Solamnia (the singular one that handles all three Orders) has no cleric spellcasting at all, useful for WOTL era knights (and used for all the knights in the Personalities section, such as Gunthar). Cheers, Cam
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2004 17:45:23	Was it ever demonstrated that the Knights of the Rose had access to clerical spells?
#11 Dragonhelm Sep 30, 2004 18:50:16	Was it ever demonstrated that the Knights of the Rose had access to clerical spells? Heroes of Hope had spellcasting Rose Knights.
#12 ferratus Sep 30, 2004 19:19:36	Yeah, but the reason you need to gain more spellcasting levels at all as a Rose Knight is obviously because the requirement is still there to multiclass through the Knight of the Crown and Knight of the Sword levels to get there. That is the only way I can see justifying what would seem to be a highly unpopular decision to keep the Knight of the Rose spellcasting levels in. After all, having 2 low levels of spellcasting in there becomes pretty useless pretty fast at high levels. The reason we go through that way is to try and keep that damnable 1st edition level mechanic of progressing through all three orders. It would be a lot cleaner to simply allow players to choose which order he wants to stay in as his prestige class to allow for more multiclassing options. Like sticking a few legendary tactician levels on while still allowing him to max out his Rose Knight levels. If we really needed to show that a person spent 6 months training with the other two orders, it could just as well be done with the "Squire of the Crown", Acolyte of the Sword" and "Novitiate of the Rose" feats.
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2004 21:01:16	Personally, I always liked the idea of having to go through the Knight of the Crown and the Knight of the Sword to become a Knight of the Rose. This fact made actually attaining Rose Knight status feel prestigious, like it should. If you simply had the feats and made it easier to become a Rose Knight, then everyone and his brother would become a Rose Knight, and it wouldn't be an elite class anymore. Also, not being a fan of playing spellcasting characters of any type (nothing against them, they're just not my style), the idea of having a non-spellcasting variant for the KoS is my preferred venue. I love the options .
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2004 22:08:56	Personally I think that there should have been a feature of the PrCs that allowed you to trade in as many levels of the lower orders levels in return for levels in the new order.....much like a paladin can turn in paladin levels if he becomes a blackguard.
#15 true_blue Oct 01, 2004 0:04:40	I like the idea of the three different PrC's. I've never had a problem with that. I even liked the Knight of the Crown PrC. The Knight of the Sword needs more abilities to set it apart from a cleric. As I said before, it seems they just got lazy and decided.. "eh they are supposed to be like clerics.. just give them the same things". The Knight of the Rose would be good if it didnt step on the toes of the Knight of the Sword. I'm looking foward to tommorrow so that i can see the different Knight of the Rose. I'm thinking I'll like it a lot more. I like the 3 prestige class system and being in one before the other. I even like how you have to be one level of KoC to get in the KoS, and 3 levels in KoS to be a KoR. I do think that the requirement to already have to have levels in mystic/cleric should be taken out. If there are no levels beforehand.. it just starts out as a first level cleric/mystic.
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 01, 2004 7:39:30	Personally I think that there should have been a feature of the PrCs that allowed you to trade in as many levels of the lower orders levels in return for levels in the new order.....much like a paladin can turn in paladin levels if he becomes a blackguard. Actually Serena, I had never really considered that. It's a great idea, and I think I'll apply that to my game, if ever my players feel like going far in the KoS.