The above refers to how movies(and novels) within this day and age(as quoted above) seem to follow the notion that to be so called "strong" one must always be defiant and listen to noone but their own selfish inner desires. Every show(or novel) or darn near every show(or novel) today focuses on the whole defiant young people/woman thing to the point where the action and the storylines are lacking because of it. There may be a few movies that have not fallen for this overused plot but they are few and far in between.
The reason that the Knights of Solamnia are filled with unthinking buffoons is because they belong to an organized political and religious tradition.
However, I think, LoI that we represent a sort of backlash against that. An idea that by joining institutions you are being encouraged to think, because you gain access to store of thought, experience and mentorship that you otherwise wouldn't have.
And I believe that both can exist within the same organization. And really, I don't see the problem with representing them differently. Hence the reason I don't think one has to take the PrC for the organization they are joining. Be it because they are free thinkers but still adhere to morals and codes of the organization (as I believe Linsha is). Or, someone who has worked their way into the organization and uses the organization's morals and codes to further their own station, they may believe in the final ends the group is trying to acheive, but they do not believe in or adhere to all that the organization stands for (as I believe Derek is). Either one of these types of people would not, nor (I believe) should not take the PrC for the organization they are joining.
Call them what you will...but Sturm and Derek and Linsha are not the same kinds of knights...and I don't think they should be represented that way.
Whatever form this takes, it is always for the betterment of the world taken as a whole. Sometimes, it is accomplished by going back to the roots of the institution itself. Why was it formed? What does it truly stand for? Other times, it is accomplished by bringing down the institution, especially when that institution has become corrupt, despotic, or overwhelming. On at least one occasion, the institution was so thoroughly manifest that the gods responded with the Cataclysm. Even then, those who were free of the rigid nature of the institution itself were given opportunities to prevent it, or rise above it, or depart the world altogether.
It's not true though to say that this is always done by good people. Evil and neutrality seek it, also. And, believe it or not, this rigidity is not equated with law, at least not in the truest sense. Mortals, when granted the power of choice, gravitate towards Order as much as Chaos, for the two forces are more paramount than good and evil. The knights of Solamnia have a purpose, but they must routinely be confronted with their own imminent stagnation lest they fail.
Cheers,
Cam
Planescape...Hell yes.
Ravenloft...goes without question.
FR...not so much.
Greyhawk...ditto...
But..DRAGONLANCE?
Birthright...give and take.
Dragonlance is the most pro-Institution realm in D&D. The Knights of Solamnia, the Orders of High Sorcery, and the Clergy of Paladin/Gods of Good are the ONLY way to advance in the land.
The Legion of Steel, Mystics, and Sorcerers are the "Independents" and they clash with the setting with...for the first time...players actually in game calling a 'good organization' quote-end quote "A bunch of good for nothing scumbags"
Why? Because they aren't part of one of the established institutions in Ansalom that was created by the gods.
Everything bows down to the Celestial order in the land and the Dragons of a Vanished Moon state upfront that the gods of evil's greatest crime is rebellion against the natural order.
Dragonlance is the most pro-Institution realm in D&D. The Knights of Solamnia, the Orders of High Sorcery, and the Clergy of Paladin/Gods of Good are the ONLY way to advance in the land.
Right...but, what they're saying is, generally speaking, the protagonists in the stories are anti-institutional. The world is very institutionalized...but the underlying message in a lot of Dragonlance stories is, "That is bad."
At least, that's the feeling I get a lot.
And I believe that both can exist within the same organization. And really, I don't see the problem with representing them differently.
Well I definately think institutions are made up of people, and people have flaws. What I disagree with is that those who revere or work within the institutions are unthinking dolts being as self-evident as "all human beings have 10 fingers". I would give anything to see a story where an honourable, courageous, disciplined, traditionalist, and devout Knight of Solamnia was exactly that in addition to being intelligent and righteous. Just one would be nice.
Be it because they are free thinkers but still adhere to morals and codes of the organization (as I believe Linsha is).
Could you please explain how she does? I mean, I think her alignment is good, but is there anything other than that? The only conduct of her that I've even seen as remotely knightly is her vow to look after the dragon eggs, and the fullfillment of that vow. She has no sense of pietas or gravitas, which is pretty much essential to the calling of a Knight of Solamnia.
Now I agree that the prestige classes, when representing an organization, should reflect an archetype of that organization. (ie. a "true knight"). So let's take a look at what Linsha gets from her prestige class. Smite evil, Inspire Courage, Rallying Cry, Strength of Honour. Do any of these fit Linsha Majere? I don't think so, unless Linsha undergoes a profound change in attitude, fighting style, equipment, morality and spirituality. A ranger/rogue would fit her perfectly instead.
Call them what you will...but Sturm and Derek and Linsha are not the same kinds of knights...and I don't think they should be represented that way.
I'll agree with that. I don't see Sturm as a institutional rebel though. A faker and a fraud yes, but not a rebel. His only act of rebellion was refusing, because Derek was clearly insane, to lead his men out to be slaughtered by draconians in a charge they couldn't win. Again, and this must be stressed, because Derek was clearly insane. That's why I think Sturm does fit the archetype. Linsha and Derek do not. Derek because I think he was rather malevolent, and would rather do what made him more powerful than doing what is right and honourable. I would almost cast him as LE myself.
Just one would be nice.
There are a few...not many...but a few. Huma for one. Vinas Solamnus is another. But I get what your saying...and I'm really hoping that Doug Niles' new trilogy does just that.
Could you please explain how she does? I mean, I think her alignment is good, but is there anything other than that?
Sorry...all my knowledge of Linsha comes from the SAGA material and Clandestine Circle. All that depicts her as a knight, from what I recall.
Do any of these fit Linsha Majere? I don't think so, unless Linsha undergoes a profound change in attitude, fighting style, equipment, morality and spirituality. A ranger/rogue would fit her perfectly instead.
Yer preachin' to the choir on this one.
I don't see Sturm as a institutional rebel though.
Sorry...that's not what I was implying. Linsha and Derek were described in my post...I just meant for Sturm to be a third kind I didn't describe...the "true" knight.
There is definitely an anti-institutional slant to much of Dragonlance, which can be seen most clearly in the core philosophy of the setting. Mortals have free will, and it is this free will and ability to make choices that drives the world forward. An institution by its nature is prone to stagnation, and becomes an obstacle to progress and the movement of the world; this is why, in every era, there are those outstanding, maverick, or renegade individuals who seek to break this rigidity in pursuit of truth and freedom from this state.
Whatever form this takes, it is always for the betterment of the world taken as a whole.
Yep the evolutionary model of history. It is extremely depressing how much our society is still indebted to the thinking of our colonialist forefathers. The idea that the story of history is the story of the ascent of man, and that we naturally are the cusp of that evolution. We are the pinacle of morality and culture. In the days of Eurocentric colonialism and expansion, that was the excuse as to why we should displace the cultures of the rest of the world. We need to show them the light of our superior religion, language and culture.
Nowadays we have stripped away the idea that our religion, language and cultural institutions are superior. The new paint job is that we have a much greater understanding of individual rights, scientific advancement, and freedom. Those that don't have our progressive views (religiously devout, rednecks) well... they are living in the past. They are not as advanced as we are and need to be taught better. Of course the religion of foreign peoples isn't to blame, because we are progressive, tolerant people. Their religion is just fine as long as it is harmonized with our own views. Otherwise, they are fundamentalist extremists.
Sometimes, it is accomplished by going back to the roots of the institution itself. Why was it formed? What does it truly stand for? Other times, it is accomplished by bringing down the institution, especially when that institution has become corrupt, despotic, or overwhelming.
Which brings us back to the roots of this evolutionary model of history. We have come out of the "dark ages" and into the enlightenment. What was the cause of this enlightenment? What allowed the North and West of Europe to become the pinacle of human evolution? Why the protestant reformation of course. The revolt (antithesis) against what exists (thesis) and creating a new advanced society (synthesis). Who would have thought hippies were indebted to Hegel? New paint jobs on the old idea to glorify the current culture and generation.
Anyway, the roots of Dragonlance can be found in Hegel as well. ;)
Even the Black Robes are often portrayed as better than Renegades for "their following of the rules"
The Knights of Solamnia are actually best portrayed by Sturm. The Knights aren't ineffectual and pretty much willing to take the stand that will mean their destruction even when they are at their most corrupt in the High Clerist's tower. Derek and the other "corrupt" members are at their worst, misguided....Sturm himself admits that Derek is proud and haughty but not evil with genuinely good intentions for the world that are selfless in motivation.
Also, unlike many others, they resolve their problems BY THEMSELVES. Unlike every other group in Ansalom, the Knights (and Dwarves) fix their problems without changing but returning to the SPIRIT of their institutions.
Also, unlike many others, they resolve their problems BY THEMSELVES. Unlike every other group in Ansalom, the Knights (and Dwarves) fix their problems without changing but returning to the SPIRIT of their institutions.
No they do it by changing. The Solamnics reduced their measure down to a phamplet of vague admonitions to "be good". The formation of "Neubardin" (sp?) a city in which all dwarves live together in harmony rather than having 6 clans.
Linsha is considered to be a good hero because she isn't like the other knights of Solamnia. Tarn Bellowsgranite is considered a good hero because he isn't like other dwarves. They are "progressive".
There's nothing wrong with the Oath and the Measure. 17 volumes of concise etiquette that results in a perfectly apt guide to living right as well as behaving honestly. Linsha is too lazy and too bull headed to behave in a manner keeping with tradition or working for an honest Republic's rule in a time of chaos.
"Be good" is all fine and dandy but standards of behavior being lost are NOT good things.
Changing the Oath and Measure? First act is a King being elected, REAL progress....
The Knights of Solamnia are not brigands but an enlightened group of magistrates that rules through right only of assumed superior knowledge of law, standards of behavior, and piety. The moment that you throw that tradition out the window is when standards are relaxed and people grab at whatever they can.
The Knights are welcoming a dark age by abandoning the Measure, as good a system as any for government of behavior, especially since it comes directly from infalliable Paladine!
What I dislike is the assumption that there is no right to a certain amount of elistism when individuals train, work hard, and adjust themselves to become an ideal that benefits the greater whole of society.
The Prequel Jedi have been blasted horribly for being "elistist" when they seem to, of all standards, live up to the ideals that they profess.
After all, "institutions" noted for making stupid decisions in DL are as broadly defined as the entire Qualinesti and Silvanesti kingdoms!
Dragonlance does contain numerous social themes. The story of Istar and the Kingpriest for example is a direct reference to what can happen if one group (or individual in this case) acquires the power to define what is "good" for everyone in the world. Even before the Cataclysm, the Kingpriest wrought great suffering on many people simply because he felt offended by their refusal to obey his moral vision. In this he is reflective of real world historical religious and social leaders that tried to impose a universal morality on all people they could control and caused great pain in doing so.
As Paladine himself put it: "It breeds the belief that because I am right then everyone that does not believe as I do is wrong."
The Knights, the elves and others are also an object lesson. In the War of the Lance and other conflicts these powerful groups often failed to accomplish the good they were capable of because they were either too concerned about their own interests or too indecisive to take action. The dragons of Krynn could have fought off Malys and the other invaders if they'd put aside their squabbles and cooperated. Instead many tried to lay low or wait for the conflict to come to them before acting.
This can be related to America of today, where we are prepared to lash out against evil only when we feel personally threatened by it. The Taliban in Afghanistan committed atrocities for years with little more than vague statements of displeasure from our country, mainly because we didn't see them as our problem until after 9/11.
This parallels the elven nations, who were unwilling to take serious interest in matters beyond their borders until they themselves came under threat. The Solamnics likewise tend to take a short-sighted view of dealing only with immediate threats and so often find themselves blind-sided by threats that developed in places they considered beneath their notice.
The other key moral lesson is that individuals can and do make a difference in the world. Laurana's appointment as leader to the Whitestone forces was surprising to most. But as Astinus pointed out it was technically legal under Solamnic Measure. Had they taken the obvious route and waited for political considerations to be worked through then Takhisis would have conquered the world while everyone was still caught up negotiating.
There is a message of individual empowerment here. But that's because individuals make history for good or evil. Adolf Hitler was the driving force behind Nazism, which caused conflict on a scale the world had never seen. In the late 18th century a stray bunch of gentry and tradesmen founded what would become the most powerful nation on Earth. Even today the world is swayed by personalities, individuals whose decisions move whole nations.
When the assumption is that it is the organization and not the people that make the decisions then paralysis ensues. Two or more people rarely interpret things the same way from a book of laws to a religious text. The Solamnics are often paralyzed by the Measure that is supposed to guide them because they forget that it is the Oath that truly matters.
These are the lessons in Dragonlance.
Goldmoon was a good person if and of herself as was Riverwind. The Heroes of the Lance were all wonderfully decent people. They are, however, rather aimless until they are made the servants of Paladin the in the War of the Lance. Goldmoon never finds as much devotion and joy in the service of Mysticism as she does in the service of Mishakahal and her life's work is found in the Disks she finds.
Disks thousands of years old containing the Old God's wisdom that would be worthless really if all that was required was saying largely
"Be excellent to one another."
Sturm Brightblade is a man who lives and dies by the tradition of the Knights. He doesn't defy the code ever but lives by it by living to its spirit rather than specifics, and even the specifics are spotty at best. The Measure, for all its flaws when interpreted by an evil heart is nevertheless one that provides justice and meaning in the hearts of those who follow it.
The Knights of Takhasis are filled with men like Steel Brightblade whom find meaning in the vision and religion that would have made them outstanding Knights of Solmania had not they had their noble truths corrupted and vilely used by the Dark Warrior.
Raistlin Majere never rebelled against the Moons....
Largely, the truth I got from the works is that they support not abandoning institutions but looking back to the principles that they are meant to embody. The principles are not changed but the same ones always because good is timeless along with courage and valor.
Linsha Majere offends me largely because she's a disgrace to the Knights. It'd be better if she wasn't one because at least then she'd be a hero on her own merits than demeaning the legacy of an order she doesn't believe in but belongs to out of her own damning sense of obligation that shames Sturm and Tanis Majere her uncles....who while not the BEST knights, lived up to the codes.
I don't like to see people "buck the system" of the organization they are in. Its a bad trend I tend to see in too many people. Sturm disobeying a direct command, as people have said, maybe is a little bit different when you know that Derek was practically insane. But where do you draw the line that soldiers are allowed to debate the commands from their elders? Linsha just not caring about people above her is a blatant disregard for the whole structure of the knighthood. While Sturm did save the day and maybe the world, what kind of principles would that the show future knights? I like the way that Steel was shown.. that he knew if Palin got away, he was going to die... and he was honorable and stepped up and took the punishment that was written in the laws. These laws are written by people who have lived full lives and lots of experience. Yes the laws of the KoS became outdated, so seeing knights like Sturm going against that seems a little bit more reasonable. The Measure was just rewritten in a way that all the Knights accepted and liked. And now Linsha comes along and "bucks the system"?
I agree with ferratus. We need heroes who have joined organizations and follow the tenets of that organization. I'm not justs aying the KoS... pick the WoHS, Knights of Nerake, Knights of Steel, a guild of rogues, etc. I'm tired of seeing people who are perceived as heroes when they go against the organization they have decided to join. You know what..maybe it is harder to do things in the strict confines of the law for that organization, but thats another challenge. You can't just buck the system when its hard for you on one thing.. but it could work for thousands of others. I think we see too much individualism.
Yes she does. In her very first novel appearance, at that, Oddysey of Gilthanas.
As a side note, Linsha seems to be getting less "knightly" with each appearance.
I mean, have a look at the pictures of her...
SAGA card -> Cover of Clandenstine Circle -> Cover of City of the Lost -> Cover of Flight of the Fallen -> Cover of Return of the Exile
So let's take a look at what Linsha gets from her prestige class. Smite evil, Inspire Courage, Rallying Cry, Strength of Honour.
Well, she joined the knighthood in a time of no gods and failing magic, so most of these powers really aren't usable until post-WoS.
A ranger/rogue would fit her perfectly instead.
Drop the ranger. Linsha keeps going on in the novels of her love of urban environments and dislike of the wilderness. Try mystic/rogue/fighter instead, if you really want to drop her prestige classes.
Linsha Majere offends me largely because she's a disgrace to the Knights. It'd be better if she wasn't one because at least then she'd be a hero on her own merits than demeaning the legacy of an order she doesn't believe in but belongs to out of her own damning sense of obligation that shames Sturm and Tanis Majere her uncles....who while not the BEST knights, lived up to the codes.
Disgrace?
Oh, please drop the hyperbole. Derek was a disgrace, Linsha isn't.
We know nothing of what Tanin and Sturm Majere were like as knights. We only saw them pre-Knighthood, and then after their death.
Sturm was a drunken womaniser, how good a knight would he have made? Tanin was, frankly, an insufferable pain in the backside.
And yes, Linsha believes in the knighthood. That's what half of her internal monologues are about, why she refuses the continual offers to join the Legion of Steel.
I'm sensing a disturbing double-standard here, Gerard Uth Mondar "bucked the system", disobeyed orders, never thought about the Measure. Where's the whines about him? Or Lady Odilia? I think if you look at Fifth Age Solamnic Knights, Linsha isn't an unusual case.
Sturm may have said "Damn the Measure!" but the fact remains that Sturm nevertheless believed in it. What Sturm resented, even if he didn't understand it himself (I believe), was essentially that people used the wording of the legal text rather than attempt to live up to the spirit of the words.
They were essentially cowards, power hungry individuals, and those paralyzed by indescision who justified themselves with procedure. Sturm Brightblade recognized the Measure's specifics that they're meant to be a guide but certain things take precedence over its specifics.
Certainly fighting evil is the greatest goal of the Measure but its merely part of the many volumes.
He lived, breathed, and died that code.
Cameron Majere caused his second in command in the Army of Fistandalius to regain a sense of his self and honor simply by mentioning the measure.
That's power.
I'm sure Linsha is a hero and I have no doubt my words are exaggerrated but the cause of being a hero doesn't mean that one should join a group one is ill suited for.
I also point out Cameron Majere's sons Tanis and Sturm were a bit thick headed along with lusty but they were raised in a tavern by Cameron. Of course they were going to lack a little polish. The fact remains that they were willing to fight to the death for their posts if nothing else and in their one appearence, would have made fine knights in the end I think.
Linsha seems actively antagonistic to the heritage she follows and that's what bugs me
Linsha seems actively antagonistic to the heritage she follows and that's what bugs me
Linsha's character, and her struggles with her sense of belonging and feelings about the order to which she belongs, make her an interesting character. I think I would be bored to tears by a character who was upright, honorable, had no character flaws nor any reason to do anything but act like a boy scout. Sturm was exceptional because he was literally the spirit of the Oath, not the Measure, and it is the Oath which brings the Solamnic knights their truest virtue. The Measure is described at the time of the War of the Lance as a needlessly complicated and endlessly detailed record of hundreds of years of stagnation bookended by heroic paragons.
An institution is really only as good as its members make it, and those members better have conflict in their lives if they're going to tell a story worth reading.
Cheers,
Cam
I think that's what I've been trying to say, but I had trouble doing it as succintly as you.
A person who believed ferverently in honor and idealism even fi he wasn't always right and tried very hard to deal with a society that held those ideals largely in contempt.
Even the most Solamnic of Solamnic has to confrotn the fact that as close as Palanthas from the High Clerist's Tower his honor meant nothing to people.
In game terms I see this as a conflict between the Lawful (Measure) and Good (Oath) elements of the Knighthood's alignment. Many Knights seem to drift towards actually becoming more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Good, worrying about the legalities of the Measure to the point that they cease to worry about honor. This was the challenge Sturm faced with Derek and his supporters. And he was reminded of the historical precedent of when Vinas Solamnus had to rebel against his lawful monarch because of the latter's corruption.
As for Raistlin, I somehow don't think that trying to supplant your gods can be construed as an act of remaining faithful to them.
But the message that seems to repeat here is that individuals need to smetimes look beyond the dictates of organizations to find what is Good. Organizations are often more concerned with Lawfulness than with Goodness and may put their commitment to following rules ahead of what is the right thing to do.
The elves did this with their isolationism. The Knights do it with their paralysis whenever the Measure doesn't explicitly tell them what to do (something Gunthar tried to change that but apparently had less success than he'd hoped).
On the D&D alignment wheel any time you want to do Good (or Evil), you will have to drift away from perfect Lawfulness. Compromises become necessary.
You lose one, you lose the other.
And yes, Linsha believes in the knighthood. That's what half of her internal monologues are about, why she refuses the continual offers to join the Legion of Steel.
I fail to see how she can believe in the knighthood when she neither respects the people that make up the knighthood nor respects the traditions and rituals of the knighthood. I'm left to conclude that she simply wants to belong to the Solamnic Knighthood because she loves the title and prestige that goes along with it.
I'm sensing a disturbing double-standard here, Gerard Uth Mondar "bucked the system", disobeyed orders, never thought about the Measure. Where's the whines about him? Or Lady Odilia? I think if you look at Fifth Age Solamnic Knights, Linsha isn't an unusual case.
Well the fact that Linsha isn't an unusual case is the problem. Linsha would be much easier to swallow if she was a rogue member. However, the Knights that are heroic are those that do not follow the rituals, codes, and traditions of the order. As if these maverick knights are what every knight should be.
I want the shining plate mail. I want the training from birth. I want the aristocratic codes of honour. I want the discipline. Above all, I want the willingness to die for the defense of Solamnia and the cause of justice.
Now I won't praise Sir Gerard to the sky as the ideal of the knighthood. Quite clearly he is not. He definately bends the rules when he feels that this could alllow his mission to be completed in a more pragmatic manner. However what differentiates Gerard from Linsha is that Gerard is his attitude.
Gerard reveres the Code and the Measure. Linsha never mentions either. Gerard considers the measure (such as when he asked if he was bound to fullfill a near-impossible oath) and seeks the official guidance of his superiors. Gerard treats his friends and enemies with courtesy and respect. Linsha respects no one but herself and her own sense of righteousness. Gerard is a professional soldier, Linsha is a freebooting adventurer.
As a chaotic good force for good, avenging wrongs and giving out justice with her sword, Linsha is just fine as a character. But is this really what we want for a knight?
Good is the highest ideal but the Knighthood is founded not on the principles of good alone but organization, strategy, discipline, and training to PROTECT that good.
You lose one, you lose the other.
But nobody ever said being Lawful Good was easy.
Like I said before, when you start to place obedience to law and tradition above the good of the world then you are no longer Lawful Good, you're Lawful Neutral.
The Knighthood therefore faces a delicate balancing act. It's not a coincidence that their god Paladine, the epitome of their values, nonetheless sometimes enjoyed masquerading as a crazy old wizard up-ending the status quo (I LOVED when he threatened to make their mustaches fall off!). That was his way of reminding them not to take themselves too seriously. Indeed, also consider how interesting that he chose the form of a wizard, a character class that most knights have historically had little regard for.
Sturm found himself in opposition to Derek because the latter, a consumate political knight, was too wrapped up in his politics to see the urgency of doing what was needed for the forces of Good to oppose Evil. Sturm saw the need for balance between the Oath and the Measure and when the Measure was being used to invalidate the Oath Sturm could not stand allowing that to happen. Other great figures like Lord Gunthar or Huma himself also saw the need to make some compromises in order to make sure that the goal of Good was served.
Remember that the Solamnic Knighthood was founded by the Gods of Good. It would not serve their interests to have that Knighthood become Lawful Neutral, however attractive the virtues of order may be. Just as Paladine sometimes shakes things up a little to remind everyone of what they're supposed to be doing, it also reflects he never wanted the Knights to robotically follow the Measure if it meant setting aside the cause of Good.
The noble upbringing, rituals, ceremony and other trappings of order are meant to instill all that. But as I said, Paladine meant for them to be knights, not lawyers. The moment they start caring more about what goes on inside the Knight's Council than they do about whether Evil is winning some victory is the moment that they stop serving Good.
You cannot have every knight who is dissatisfied just not follow the rules they deem as not important or serious. The oath and measure is what made me start liking the knights. Both of them. You cant just follow the Oath and do what you want because you are doing good in the world. The Knights knew they needed structure and maybe some of the rules do prevent immediate good from happening. But the knights knew that the eventual good and constant good from the knighthood would overcome this problem. Its necessary. If knights don't like the rules and structure they must go through to do good in the world, they shouldnt be a knight. Get out. As ferratus said, Linsha is a good hero for chaotic good, but not much of a knight.
I think our problem comes from each hero being that "shaker" knight who wants to "buck the system". If you want to show good knights getting tired of other knights only following the law, show how they do it using the system, not going against it.
You hit the nail on the right there. The renegade Solamnic Knight has been so overused that we are sick of it. Not only that, we have come to assume that there are two types of knights in the knighthood today. One are the freebooting rogues who are the true heroes, and the other kind of knights are those who follow the measure and thus are stupid, intolerant, power-hungry, cowardly, and greedy.
The discipline is there for good reason. This is why Sturm knew he would be executed for refusing a direct order in war time, if Derek lived through the battle. You can tell that he at all costs didnt want to refuse the order, but in the end had no choice. Too many of the newer knights arent in situations where they literally have to refuse a command. They just choose to because they just dont want to or dont like it. And they expect nothing bad to happen because of it.
Exactly, and if something bad does happen because of it, it is because their superiors are morons, stuck in the past, or corrupt. The one-sidedness of this debate is infuriating, and laden with a few ideas that I find particularly abborent.
1) Soldiers who are trained from birth in the arts of warfare are incompetant when it comes to war. For that, you need people who fight dirty and have no chain of command.
2) The Person is smart and talented, but when a group of People numbering more than 5 get together, they are obviously stupid and corrupt.
You cannot have every knight who is dissatisfied just not follow the rules they deem as not important or serious. The oath and measure is what made me start liking the knights. Both of them. You cant just follow the Oath and do what you want because you are doing good in the world.
I think the best analogy would be if a person wanted to pursue the religious life in the Church. However that same person refuses to regulate his or her behavior, study any of the religious texts, or devote any time to prayer. As well, they will refuse to acknowledge any authority within the hiearchy to assign them duties or to give them spiritual guidance.
This above is Linsha to a "L". She does not show evidence of any working familiarity to the Measure. She does not conduct herself with decorum or follow any semblence of discipline. She does not pray or meditate, though she should as a mystic and knight. She treats others in the knighthood with contempt unless they agree with her or allow her to do what she wants.
And I personally see Sturm as more of an ideal knight. Which is really the point here. The issues for Sturm and Linsha are different ones. Sturm's "disobedience" was to the knightly body of law, even as he was being loyal to the ideals of Paladine, whom that law was supposedly meant to serve.
Is it a crime to place the ideals of the gods above the ideals of the mortal organization?
Think carefully. The Kingpriest of Istar would have said yes. Indeed, his holy empire was based on discarding the teachings of the gods in favor of a social system that was more to his liking. Denubis sat a solitary scribe performing the "unimportant" work of transcribing the Disks of Mishakal (the sacred texts of the Gods of Light!) for people to read. Yet when the Night of Doom came Denubis was the only cleric in the Temple that was deemed worthy to be saved.
The Knights have also gotten like this repeatedly. Ironically, Sturm, raised in exile by a mother with an idealistic, romantic notion of what being a Knight meant came closer than perhaps anyone in years to actually living up to the ideal. Many others, like Derek, even scorned their own heroic history, dismissing Huma as some children's fable.
The Knights are supposed to be shining figures of virtue but in truth many aren't. And unsurprisingly that leads to a decline in much the same way the Knights of Neraka have declined into a bunch of thugs in fancy armor since Ariakan was killed. That a Knightly circle was willing to employ espionage and subversion to try and remove Hogan Bight is indicative of why someone like Linsha might decide that the Knighthood isn't all that their press releases claim. Certainly Sturm faced considerable disillusionment at far less severe politicking coming from the upper ranks.
However, the Knighthood is in flux right now and that is part of the problem. The Knights were hardly gleaming paragons during the Age of Despair either. Perhaps now that Kiri-Jolith is back full time the better members of the Knights will gain ascendancy and Knightly ideals will undergo a renewal. One can hope.
Frankly, that's what the Kingpriest DID do. Not the reverse. The gods of good's idealism is just as dangerous as the ideals of a secular institution since you can realize the Measure is built to take into account the ideals
A
People will screw upB
People NEED directionC
Things are not perfect"My honor is my life" is lovely but what exactly IS honor. The Measure is supposed to TELL you what they are. The first you start believing there's a conflict between the Oath andthe Measure is when you realize you aren't cut out to be a knight.
Sturm wasn't bucking the system, he was faced with a situation where the code did break down yes but was fully PREPARED to face the consequences of his actions and he recieved a legal and fair trial. The grandmaster acted within the Measure and it WORKED. It was closer than it should have been yes.
But I think someone needs to cut Derek Crownguard some slack here. Sturm certainly did. The Knights of Solamnia in that tower hanging onto the Measure for dear life were the GOOD guys.
Derek: Jerk, arrogant, self righteous, not the right man for the job.
Kitiara's father: Hired out to the highest bidder, murdered villages, and dumped a woman when he tired of her.
The Knighthood was filled with people who had no respect for the Measure and that was their DEFENSE against the scum of their society that had taken over. Verminaard, lets not forget, was the child of a Knight of Solamnia.
They were united by the code and their shared purpose but needed someone like Sturm to show them what exactly a true knight was...not because of conflict in the Measure but because of too many examples of godless scum who didn't do anything right had worn away their idealism.
That's my interpretation at least
The Gods of Good did feel that things had gone too far and had taken action to indicate their displeasure, as the hordes of powerless pseudo-clerics running loose indicated. But to the corrupt clerics it mattered little, because they still ruled Ansalon spells or no-spells.
But the message was the consequences of a system in which there are no checks-and-balances.
Nothing restricted the word of the Kingpriest, not even the gods, and disaster was the result.
Likewise, the Measure is often treated as an end-all-be-all and as a result the Knights often find themselves tied in knots because they encounter a situation that the people that wrote the Measure were not prophetic enough to have foreseen and addressed in writing.
As for Derek, I don't doubt for an instant that he sincerely believed he was the best candidate for leading the Knighthood. As I have reiterated, I don't think he was evil, a coward or any other sort of mess.
But what he was was too wrapped up in a political system. The system itself mattered more to him than the reason the system was created in the first place.
This is the vulnerability of absolute Law, and why the gods tried to temper that with a hefty dose of Good to balance it out. When upholding the Measure becomes an end unto itself, then the Measure has by defintion failed in the purpose it was created to serve.
The "anti-institutional" message is really more a case that an organization needs to be mindful of why it exists, rather than treating it's existence as an absolute.
Setting aside the Knights in their shining armor, Solamnia, and the rest of Ansalon, is populated by average people who don't give a Gully Dwarf's *** for what it says in the Measure. In Paladine's ideal plan, the Knights are supposed to be the vanguard of the army of Light that exists to defend those average people.
The Heroes of the Lance became heroes because they discovered, to their dismay, that the figures of authority in their world, such as the Knights, were too wrapped up in their own issues to turn around and save everyone from the Dark Queen.
For the gods' sakes, the Knights turned a Dragon Orb over to the gnomes to try and figure it out, rather than attempt something intelligent like ask somebody that might actually know something about magic!
If that's not a testament to organizational thick-headedness then I don't know what is.
Now onto the wizards thing. Um.. I'm a Knighthood who is founded on Good.. who has a Dragon Orb that I think may save the world. Do I want to show it to the wizards, who have admittedly evil people within their organization, who profess they put *magic* first, and who made this item and may think therefore they are entitled to it? Or do I want to give it to the gnomes who are our allies and have a knack for figuring out things. Hmm.. no brainer for me. I think I'll use the gnomes all right. *You* dont even know what would have happened if they would have asked the wizards. The wizards might have stole it or said they deserve it. I highly doubt they wouldnt have had a problem with the KoS holding onto it. "Oh well the Knights didnt learn anything their way.." Well yea, but how did they know until they tried? Again we are privy to knowledge the people in that world arent.
I find too often people who read the bookls come with a sort of condescending tone about the things that happen. "How could they do this" "Why are they stupid and did that action", etc... you know what find me the perfect organization or person in this world. There isnt any. These people are just as dumb, prejudiced, empathetic, etc as the people in our world. And thats what keeps me reading. These people have real flaws. Even the "good" people have the flaws and show that they arent perfect.
The Measure was written and lasted for thousands of years. I just dont see how people say "it doesnt work" and chuck it. Yes maybe parts need to be redone, but that thing withstood time and throughout the years many many many Knights did many many many good things with it. To say it has failed is a gross injustice. Yes things need to be changed, but it has served a very valuable purpose and has done countless good in the world.
1) The Dragon Orb is a magical item.
2) The gnomes hate magic and scorn the study of it.
3) The gnomes also often have "knack" for not being able to figure out devices that they themselves built!
4) The pressing sense of urgency caused by Dragonarmies sweeping across Ansalon.
5) Wizards do understand magic, and also created the Dragon Orbs.
I'm sure that had the Knights been patient (and Paladine not opted to meddle), in two or three decades the gnomes would have issued a report that would have informed the Knights in three or four hundred thousand words that the Dragon Orb appears to be magical and has no mechanical method of activation.
I know that when my DVD player needs to be fixed that it probably won't help to take it to a seamstress.
As previously noted, the Measure, as written, had proven largely useless for centuries ranging from the end of the Age of Might right up to the early Age of Mortals. Hey, the world went and changed. How dare it? Doesn't the River of Time know that all things should remain constant so that change is unecessary and can be suitably scorned by right-thinking people who like things to stay the same.
But updating the Measure to cope with changing realities in the world is not the same thing as tossing it in the fireplace.
The Knights are at their worst when they've reverted to unyielding dogmatism and at their best when they've been willing to examine possibilities.
As I noted early, Laurana's appointment to general of the Whitestone forces was, in fact, perfectly legal by the Measure as the otherwise-neutral Astinus pointed out.
Yet ironically, many conservative knights found the idea shocking simply because it hadn't been done before. That it was legally permissable had nothing to do with the fact that they personally felt that a woman should be in a dress hovering near a fainting couch, not flying around on dragonback leading armies.
Often the Knights get locked in static modes of thought. And while they wrestle with the Measure and what it does and does not allow they get left behind. Paladine's frivolous Fizban routine was meant to jolt people out of complacency and get them thinking again. Crysania, during her super (self) righteous phase found the notion of her god as a crazy old wizard rather blasphemous. But Paladine doesn't run his life based on some cleric's sense of propriety.
Likewise the Knights sometimes need to think outside the box.