1) Who are they?
2) What are their powers?
3) How did they get said powers?
4) Are they responsible for destroying Athas's terrain, it's dieties, and its links to the Great Wheel?
I wasn't really aware of the Dark Sun setting 'till the Dragon magazine re-vamp came out a few months ago. It's definetely the grittiest setting out there. Anyway...the description of the Dragon Kings kinda confused me. I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone could help me with the following:
1) Who are they?
They are extremely powerful arcane/psionic wielders. Formerly the Champions of a being known as Rajaat, each tasked to the eradication of a specific race. There once was 13 Champions in total, but their numbers have dwindled. The major turning point in their existence was when they discovered the truth of their master's intent - the eradication of all races save for Halflings (rather than Humans), most of them revolted against him, and imprisoned him. The revels from this became the Sorcerer-Kings and the Dragon.
2) What are they powers?
They are epic arcane spellcasters/psionic manifesters, Defilers of the highest order, and each on their own path towards becoming a Dragon.
3) How did they get said powers?
They have been around for thousands of years. Rajaat unlocked some of their powers, and then they themselves have developed more.
4) Are they responsible for destroying Athas's terrain, it's dieties, and its links to the Great Wheel?
The terrain - partially. All Defilers have had a hand in Athas's destruction. And The Dragon also had gone insane for a couple centuries, causing most of the descrution in the Tablelands region.
There never has been "gods" for Athas - there were ancient "gods" that were followed, most likely they were elemental powers given a god-name. And Athas' separation from the rest of the multiverse is a mystery, but it happened before the days of the Sorcerer-Kings.
My suggestion to you is, check out svgames.com, and look for the Dark Sun PDF's available there - they are $5 per, and all the 2E rules for Dark Sun can be found there. Then also, check out Athas.org, and their conversion of Dark Sun - which has been worked on for four years now, and is just as official as the Dragon and Dungeon magazine articles - just is full of much more of the flavor of the setting. They also have a listing of all the products for Drk Sun - from gaming materials to novels, to the Polyhedron, Dragon and Dungeon articles of the past that had Dark Sun info in them.
I hope this helps.
My sources for #1 are "The Wanderer's Chronicle" from the revised Dark Sun box for 2nd Edition (pages 15 & 16), and the novel "The Rise And Fall Of A Dragon King" by Lynn Abbey (all over)
Sacha, 1st Champion, "Curse of the Kobolds", successful, loyal to Rajaat, ultimately killed by Rikus
Kalak, 2nd Champion, "Ogre Doom", successful, immortal before Rajaat and never a true Champion
Dregoth, 3rd Champion, "Ravager of Giants", failed, immortal before Rajaat but a Champion, believed killed by the surviving others (of the time), and now existing in undeath as a Kaisharga (Dark Sun version of a Lich)
Myron, 4th Champion, "Troll-Scorcher", failed, killed by Hamanu
Hamanu, 4th Champion, "Troll-Scorcher", successful
Abalach-Re (originally Uyness of Waverly), 5th Champion, "Orc Plague", successful, killed by Sadira
Nibenay (originally Gallard), 6th Champion, "Bane of Gnomes", successful
Sielba, 7th Champion, "Destroyer of Pterrans", failed, killed by Hamanu & his army
Andropinis (originally Albeorn), 8th Champion, "Slayer of Elves", failed, imprisoned in the Black for 1,000 years by Rajaat
Tectuktitlay, 9th Champion, "Whemic Annihilator", successful, beat to death with the Dark Lense by Rajaat
Oronis (originally known as Keltis), 10th Champion, "Lizard Man Executioner", believed successful, truely reformed as an Avengion
Lalali-Puy, 11th Champion, "Aarakocra Scourge", failed
Wyan, 12th Champion, "Pixie Blight", successful, killed by Sadira with the Scourge of Rkard
Borys of Ebe, 13th Champion & replacement, "Butcher of Dwarves", failed, accellerated metamorphosis to full dragon in power, killed by Rikus with the Scourge of Rkard
Daskinor, 14th Champion, "Goblin Slayer", successful, alive and ruling the isolated city-state of Eldaarich
Kalid-Ma, 15th Champion, "Tari Killer", failed, believed killed (and very well could be dead) in a mysterious event that befel Kalidnay*
* Truth of the matter is that Kalidnay became an "Island of Terror" in the demi-plane of Ravenloft, last I read.
In the novel I found the names Inenek and Pennarin. In scanning the book I think I saw a hint that Albeorn was a replacement. I can't verify this. Also, I have no idea who Inenek is, but he was in the novel with the rest of the Champions.
2: What are their powers? In 2nd Edition terms, they ranged in the low 20's for the most part. Well, 20th level Defiler, 20th level Psionic, and anywhere from 1st through 10th level Dragon. In 3/3.5 terms I'd say they are most definately Epic level, somewhere between 41 to 50 in character level (yes, I would think they should be this powerful).
3: How did they get said powers? Most of them were infused by Rajaat (even reshaped by him) and the Dark Lense. Kalak & Dregoth had achieved immortality on their own, but Kalak refused Rajaat's offer but still participated in the Cleansing Wars as a Champion (Sacha & Wyan, the traitors to the final rebellion against Rajaat, provided Tyr's Templars with spells, not Kalak).
4: Are they responsible for destroying Athas's terrain, it's dieties, and its links to the Great Wheel? In part, yes. Borys in his final stage of evolution did plenty of damage during his century of insanity.
Years ago, I found a file here (when the game was still owned by TSR) that outlined many major events in Athas's history from World/Blue Age, Green Age, and the Time of Magic. In it there was actually a war that happened before the Cleansing Wars, one between Preservers and followers of Rajaat that would've done a lot of damage as well. I would believe that this war, not the Cleansing War, did the most damage.
As to the dieties and links to the Great Wheel, they never really existed in the first place. The world of Athas is almost totally sealed from the Astral plane and the divine conduits (even those conduits through the Etherial plane) necessary for a god to extend his/her/its will to Athas. There is one artifact (in possession of Dregoth) that does have a link into the Great Wheel, but it is so fragile (the connection, not the gate) that no diety would even try using it. There may also be a few wormholes to the Astral or Outer planes, but finding them would be DM's perogitive. Planar travel to and from Athas is best done by the Etherial plane, if you can get there first.
In SpellJammer terms, the world is a permamently closed crystal sphere (not to mention that a helm would destroy hundreds of square miles just to leave the planet).
...(Sacha & Wyan, the traitors to the final rebellion against Rajaat, provided Tyr's Templars with spells, not Kalak).
Nice idea, I was thinking about this on my own too, but then I couldn't explain to myself, why Tyr's templar lost their ability to cast spells after the fall of Kalak. How do you explain it?
Sacha and Wyan providing spells for Kalak violates one thing. It was Borys and not Rajaat who linked the SK's with the vortices that allow them to grant spells to their templars. Why would Borys give the same powers to two traitors? This linking was done AFTER the the imprisonment of Rajaat, so Sacha's and Wyan's status as traitors was not in contention.
I agree. Plus Kalak, even if some don't see him as a true champion, doesn't have to be a total wimp as many DMs seem to feel (maybe he was having a bad day when Rikus threw the Heartwood spear). After all, he was, in 2e ed, a 25th/25th level defiler/psionicist if not a dragon... that's not something to spit at (anyways, not to his face). And, if he wasn't a Advanced being, why wasn't he approached by the Order? -The Order: a powerful organization of psionicists who promotes the purity and neutrality of psionic power... that is, if you're a 21st level psion... join us or die.
PB
And, if he wasn't a Advanced being, why wasn't he approached by the Order? -The Order: a powerful organization of psionicists who promotes the purity and neutrality of psionic power... that is, if you're a 21st level psion... join us or die.
PB
One reason my last DM used for this was that the order only considers pure psions to be of any importance. People who combine their skills are mongrels not worth wasting theyre time with. I'll have to look over my books to see if this holds though.
One reason my last DM used for this was that the order only considers pure psions to be of any importance. People who combine their skills are mongrels not worth wasting theyre time with. I'll have to look over my books to see if this holds though.
From what I understood, the Order didn't waste their time with "pure" psionic users as Advanced Beings, and anything that they decided to be in the natural order of things, and imposed their views on "mongrels" and other unnatural psionic users...
This is in Dragon Kings, under the section on Psionicists.
Sacha and Wyan providing spells for Kalak violates one thing. It was Borys and not Rajaat who linked the SK's with the vortices that allow them to grant spells to their templars. Why would Borys give the same powers to two traitors? This linking was done AFTER the the imprisonment of Rajaat, so Sacha's and Wyan's status as traitors was not in contention.
Sacha & Wyan weren't found out as traitors till after Rajaat was banished to the Hollow. They were discovered trying to free the Warbringer after his imprisonment and later beheaded for their treachery by the other SKs.
(EDIT)
I stand corrected on this. They were beheaded before Borys' used the Dark Lens on the other Champions. My Bad
Another thing that makes me believe that Kalak was indeed the one giving spells to his templars is his brief appearance in the Gray in the Obsidian Oracle. In there, when Tithian is being attacked by the ghosts, Kalak tells him how he killed his brother by "calling upon him". Unless Kalak was in the habit of asking Sacha and Wyan (or anyone else for that matter) about every single person who asked for a spell, how would he know this?
Kalak was just probably thinking about his grocery list when he got speared by Rikkus.
The Order considers the Sorcerer-Kings to be an intregal part of Athasian life and therefore don't bother them. Their views on advanced beings are up in the air so they just monitor them for the time being.
In the adventure "Dragon's Crown" the member of the Order makes up their minds about the advanced beings issue. Advanced beings taint the purity of psionics with magic, are abominations and therefore have to get killed. A second after the Order has reached a concensus about this, they kill Athas' third avangion, Korgunard. Again, only Keltis/Oronis is left. Very Dark Sun-like.
A second after the Order has reached a concensus about this, they kill Athas' third avangion, Korgunard. Again, only Keltis/Oronis is left. Very Dark Sun-like.
Damn... Talk about bad luck. There are many more dragons than avangions, yet an avangion is the first kill. Very Dark Sun-like indeed ...
Damn... Talk about bad luck. There are many more dragons than avangions, yet an avangion is the first kill. Very Dark Sun-like indeed ...
Korgunard should/could be brought back in some way. Maybe in the theme of Dregoth as some sort of undead? He was after all killed in a pretty hideous and gruesome way. Smoked by a gang of high level Order psions and served up to a hungry halfling as Avangion-kabobs? I'd say that was grounds for coming back as a undead Venger or something similar. Cool twist to have a undead avangion hunting down the remaining members of the Order hell bent on revenge.
Another idea could be to have the hafling who ate him(I've not yet read the adventure, so I'm not sure if he is still alive) being affected by the avangion that he ate. Perhaps he gained some of the avangions personality from when he consumed it? (Think of all the cultures that believe in passing knowledge/virtues of a person by consumming them).
The halfling who ate him should have been smoked by the party if all went right in the adventure. The halfling's motivation behind eating Korgunard was to attempt to gain some of his strength and power if I'm not mistaken.
Well... So much for that idea. I guess the "I snack on you and get your powers" bit has been used quite a few times already.
Perhaps Korgunard's spirit could posses the corpse of the halfling psion instead (since his was consumed). A zombie like halfling with the powers and soul of one pi$$ed off avangion.
Perhaps Korgunard's spirit could posses the corpse of the halfling psion instead (since his was consumed). A zombie like halfling with the powers and soul of one pi$$ed off avangion.
And perhaps this could be an intermittent occurrence...
With Korungard's spirit and the halfling's wrestling for the control of the corpse...
The moment's winner would be in control, leaving the other's spirit (visible or not) orbiting around the corpse, unable to act or communicate, obsessed with gaining control to pursue his own agenda...
The moment's winner would be in control, leaving the other's spirit (visible or not) orbiting around the corpse, unable to act or communicate, obsessed with gaining control to pursue his own agenda...
Somebody's been reading The Death Gate Cycle...
(or if not, what you said is extremely similar to what goes on in the 3rd book of the series)
Somebody's been reading The Death Gate Cycle...
(or if not, what you said is extremely similar to what goes on in the 3rd book of the series)
In fact, no.
But it sounds interesting... will have to buy.
From what I understood, the Order didn't waste their time with "pure" psionic users as Advanced Beings, and anything that they decided to be in the natural order of things, and imposed their views on "mongrels" and other unnatural psionic users...
Yeah, I've read. I just see a glitch
in the Order's way of thinking, though. If you're a 21st level psion and you don't want to join us, we'll kill you! If you're a 21st level psion, you have lots of levels in another class, you don't want to join us and we figure you're too powerful for our puny psionic powers, we'll leave you alone and watch you destroy what we believe in (namely the neutrality and purity of psionic). Kogunard, you would like to restore Athas to its original splendor but we're hypocritical fools who want to feel better about ourselves and you're weak enough (and you don't have an army protecting you) so we'll just kill you and feed you to the halflings! *ZAP* So much for beliefs...
PB
In fact, no.
But it sounds interesting... will have to buy.
Extremely, highly reccomended. I loved that series.
In the adventure "Dragon's Crown" the member of the Order makes up their minds about the advanced beings issue. Advanced beings taint the purity of psionics with magic, are abominations and therefore have to get killed. A second after the Order has reached a concensus about this, they kill Athas' third avangion, Korgunard. Again, only Keltis/Oronis is left. Very Dark Sun-like.
One of the main reasons I am debating having the Order break up into three different factions and kinda deal with their own version of a coup for awhile in my campaigns.
One of the main reasons I am debating having the Order break up into three different factions and kinda deal with their own version of a coup for awhile in my campaigns.
That was something I didn't agree with the Dragon DS converstion on. They had it that the Order never recovered from the events of Dragon's Crown. I always felt that they would have rebuilt their ranks or the very least became some other organization with similar interests
Somebody's been reading The Death Gate Cycle...
My favourite books! Btw it's time to read them again...
That was something I didn't agree with the Dragon DS converstion on. They had it that the Order never recovered from the events of Dragon's Crown. I always felt that they would have rebuilt their ranks or the very least became some other organization with similar interests
Oh, I will have them recover after that incident and the coup that follows (might be pre-DC haven't decieded yet), just might not be the exact same organization.
Oh, I will have them recover after that incident and the coup that follows (might be pre-DC haven't decieded yet), just might not be the exact same organization.
It appeared to me after the Dragon's Crown that the Order was going towards amore NG slant on its goals and hwo it would now interact with psions on Athas. Or at least thats how I took it from what happens at the end of the Mod.
It appeared to me after the Dragon's Crown that the Order was going towards amore NG slant on its goals and hwo it would now interact with psions on Athas. Or at least thats how I took it from what happens at the end of the Mod.
Well, the three factions I have are one in the middle being more of a True Neutral Order, while the two others is one wanting to keep the usual tactics of keeping psionic purity, and the other opposite end not giving a damn about psionic purity and all for mixing it with other things in order to gain more power.
Think of it as the Jedis being the Order it is today, the Sith being the opposite, and more of a Grey Council of sorts (B5 reference) for the TN one.
I think I am also going to have psychic warriors be more or less the guardians of the Order and protect all three sides till the coup is over and the Order reunifies.
Regarding Korgunard, the halfling that ate him did make a knife from one of Korgunard's bones if I rememeber right. Ran the Dragon's Crown module once but the players never thought to try using that knife as a component to bring him back to life. (No undeath for him unless there's ever a preserver version of a Kaisharga; defliers only, like evil only for liches.)
And then there's why Tyr's templars lost their spells when Kalak died, yet the novel I've read says that Sacha & Wyan were the ones providing the spells. Why the loss? Two reasons at least. 1: Tyr's templars prayed to Kalak; when he's dead, why pray? 2: Maintain the illusion; people would be suspicious if Kalak was dead but Tyr's templars still had their magic.
In that same novel, "The Rise And Fall Of A Dragon King", I would think would be a good one to read. Last one for Dark Sun published as far as I know, and gave some insight into the Cleansings Wars (from Hamanu's perspective) as well as the Rebellion against Ragaat. Sacha & Wyan were found to be traitors before Rajaat's imprisonment, but after his death. Also, it was when Borys drew the life energy from the surviving Champions to finish his metamorphosis when Sacha & Wyan were beheaded by the life draining (those two were probably focused on, but all the others had a portion of their life taken as well).
Also, RaFoaDK should not be seen as canon, there are LOTS of inconsistencies in there because of the lack of communication between the different authors of TSR.
[who cast raise dead on the kalak thread anyway?]
btw...what is the deal with avangion? anyone ever hear of ressurection? we didnt have character trees cuz deep down inside our dm was weak ;)
In the adventure "Dragon's Crown" the member of the Order makes up their minds about the advanced beings issue. Advanced beings taint the purity of psionics with magic, are abominations and therefore have to get killed. A second after the Order has reached a concensus about this, they kill Athas' third avangion, Korgunard. Again, only Keltis/Oronis is left. Very Dark Sun-like.
I'll have to pick up Dragon's Crown; it's one of the DS products I don't own yet. Maybe this weekend...
And then there's why Tyr's templars lost their spells when Kalak died, yet the novel I've read says that Sacha & Wyan were the ones providing the spells. Why the loss? Two reasons at least. 1: Tyr's templars prayed to Kalak; when he's dead, why pray? 2: Maintain the illusion; people would be suspicious if Kalak was dead but Tyr's templars still had their magic.
Now, that's something I like very much. To keep the illusion. Option 1 can be outta there, but I will give a small explanation. You always have faithful peoples that will pray or believes, even if their gods are gone or it's been SAID that they should leave their faith. So eventually, some of the templars would try to cast SK spells and would see it no longer work.
As for Option 2, the one I like, it can be hard, when you are in a difficult position, not to use your powers. Of course, there might be some leak, BUT it's easier, I think, to restraint yourself from using your powers keep the illusion that you are powerless. This way you always have a surprise effect if needed. Anyway, dont you think that if someone see a templars casting and that person should NOT have been that this person will stay alive to tell it?
*blink*blink*
Huh? Because muddy water is inherently muddy, it's not a threat to pure water?
WRT people's recommendations of _Rise and Fall of a Dragon King_ I cannot express strongly enough that its blatant disregard for the Dark Sun canon is rivaled only by that of the recent Dragon Magazine "conversion". As far as I'm concerned, the events it describes did not happen, and neither did the history it recounts. Stay away. Stay far away.
In my campaign, the player killed Kalak (see the thread I made;``The verdant passage``) but its the only thing of the Prism pentad I kept. I stick to the first box for the story. Kalak was a sorcerer king like Hamanu and everyone else.
WRT the Order and Advanced Beings: trying to sort out the slipshod inconsistencies between the various Dark Sun products is irritating enough, but Dragon King's explanation of the Order's views on this matter is infuriating to me because they manage to contradict themselves literally within the space of a single sentence -- the sentence in question being (from memory) "Because the AB's psionics are inherently tainted by magic, the Order does not view them as a threat to the purity of psionics on Athas."
*blink*blink*
Huh? Because muddy water is inherently muddy, it's not a threat to pure water?
I always figured that the Order was merely rationalizing their cowardice. Sure, it doesn't necessarily make sense, but who wants to directly take on the SKs and the Dragon? Picking on lone 21st level single-classed psionicists is much easier.
Another thing that makes me believe that Kalak was indeed the one giving spells to his templars is his brief appearance in the Gray in the Obsidian Oracle. In there, when Tithian is being attacked by the ghosts, Kalak tells him how he killed his brother by "calling upon him". Unless Kalak was in the habit of asking Sacha and Wyan (or anyone else for that matter) about every single person who asked for a spell, how would he know this?
In RaFoaDK, Kalak is portrayed as having coopted the two floating heads' spell granting capabilities: all requests for spells are routed though Kalak who makes use of Sacha and Wyan's connection to the Dark Lens (in that novel it is that connection that allows spell-granting, not vortexs). This coopting of their power is facilitated by Kalak's mastery over sorcery and mindbending as well as the severly diminished power of the two Champions dating from the time Borys drained them of a considerable amount of their essence when he tried to become a full Dragon.
In the novel I found the names Inenek and Pennarin. In scanning the book I think I saw a hint that Albeorn was a replacement. I can't verify this. Also, I have no idea who Inenek is, but he was in the novel with the rest of the Champions.
Abbey, the author of RaFoaDK, devised ancient names for the Champions, names they changed when they became sorcerer-monarchs (some of those may have been supplied to her by TSR):
Uyness/Abalach-Re
Gallard/Nibenay
Inenek/Lalali-Puy
2: What are their powers? In 2nd Edition terms, they ranged in the low 20's for the most part. Well, 20th level Defiler, 20th level Psionic, and anywhere from 1st through 10th level Dragon. In 3/3.5 terms I'd say they are most definately Epic level, somewhere between 41 to 50 in character level (yes, I would think they should be this powerful).
You should check out Xlorepdarkhelm's thread "(very) Brief sorcerer-king sketch" that tries to give levels to the various SKs, based on Xlorep's own Dragon rules.
Another idea could be to have the hafling who ate him(I've not yet read the adventure, so I'm not sure if he is still alive) being affected by the avangion that he ate. Perhaps he gained some of the avangions personality from when he consumed it? (Think of all the cultures that believe in passing knowledge/virtues of a person by consumming them).
Maybe upon his death Korgunard didn't dissolve in the Gray but rather joined with the spirit of the land known as Desverendi.
WRT people's recommendations of _Rise and Fall of a Dragon King_ I cannot express strongly enough that its blatant disregard for the Dark Sun canon is rivaled only by that of the recent Dragon Magazine "conversion". As far as I'm concerned, the events it describes did not happen, and neither did the history it recounts. Stay away. Stay far away.
Wow, you make it sound like a Rose Estes'...
If she had had the full information she was supposed to have had from the beggining, I sincerly believe she would have plowed Denning into the ground with superior prose, all around more believable characters and better rendition of DS flavor elements and "atmosphere". I can see through the inconsistencies the novel she should have been allowed to write and its a damn good one. That's my opinion.
Wow, you make it sound like a Rose Estes'...
If she had had the full information she was supposed to have had from the beggining, I sincerly believe she would have plowed Denning into the ground with superior prose, all around more believable characters and better rendition of DS flavor elements and "atmosphere". I can see through the inconsistencies the novel she should have been allowed to write and its a damn good one. That's my opinion.
Plus she did most of the Pavek books, RaFoaDK not being the only one she did in the Chronicles series, and all the ones she did was good IMO, RaFoaDK being the best in the group and the series.
The Darkness Before the Dawn was also a good book in that series IMO.
I always figured that the Order was merely rationalizing their cowardice. Sure, it doesn't necessarily make sense, but who wants to directly take on the SKs and the Dragon? Picking on lone 21st level single-classed psionicists is much easier.
My thoughts exactly!
In the end though, we end up with those seven magical words (or eight, but who cares :P): It's your campaign; Do whatever you want :D.
No undeath for him unless there's ever a preserver version of a Kaisharga; defliers only, like evil only for liches.
Kornugard could not be a kaisharga, as they 'voluntarily sought undeath' (TBT).
He could return as an incorporal dhaot, who 'cannot rest until they return home.'
I have the Pentad and i'm thinking of buying other DS novel.
Except fot RaFoaDK, are the other Chronicles novel good?
Most of the Chronicles series was good, the best being what Abbey wrote with RaFoaDK at the top.
Another good one in that series was the Darkness Before the Dawn.
However, I'm a bit biased since I also liked the Tribe of One series, though I will agree it wasn't as good as Pentad or most of the Chronicle series.