...and he was listed as having a class level of 56. I don't remember specifically how his levels were spent, but I remember that he was CR 56. Strange. I also remember Dalamar being somewhere in the low 30's. LOL! Funny shite.
That is weird. I have heard people think his class levels will probably total 39.
I'm just saying...
That wasn't really directed at you. It was just a sort of general question for the 39ers out there.
That wasn't really directed at you. It was just a sort of general question for the 39ers out there.
That is entirely possible, having him cast it once and then having a second one on spell trigger to be cast immediately afterward. I am more thinking that he increased his spellcaster level through various means so that he would be able to cast the spell. The Reserves of Strength feat pretty much has this covered, as he practically went into a coma afterwards. Heck, you never know, he could have raised his caster level using the Leech Item feat or something. Between the two, he could have gotten around 7-10 caster level increase, which could have brought him into the right zone of of the caster level requirement. I'd say Raist is probably around 30th level give or take a few levels, at best.
Cheers,
Cam
As the original 39th level caster theorist (look the thread up if you don't believe me) I formally retract my position that Raistlin was a 39th level caster. There were plenty of things he could have done to raise his caster level up to the point where he would have been able to make the Time Reaver spell move him forward in time 39 years.
Don't do it man, don't give up!
Now, if when his stats do come out he doesn't have the Reserves of Strength feat, I will be utterly confused.
He'll probably have something silly, like the Master of Past and Present feat or some funky unique ability like Spellcasting members of the Majere family automatically add ten to their caster levels when casting spells involving time travel. (if you own Star Wars, it's similar to the Skywalker syndrome.)
Don't do it man, don't give up!It's all over man!He'll probably have something silly, like the Master of Past and Present feat or some funky unique ability like Spellcasting members of the Majere family automatically add ten to their caster levels when casting spells involving time travel. (if you own Star Wars, it's similar to the Skywalker syndrome.)
Oh God, I hope it doesn't come to that...although...it would explain Palin casting a 9th level spell.
Fistandantilus cast the EXACT same spell, with the EXACT same properties while at level 22!
Fistandantilus cast the EXACT same spell, with the EXACT same properties while at level 22!
Well...we don't know that for sure. It was stated that those stats for Fisti were from about 20 years before the Cataclysm. (at least I thought it was)
He'll probably have something silly, like the Master of Past and Present feat
You know...I used to think "Master of Past and Present" meant some sort of mastery over time.
After reading Towers of High Sorcery...I think it is supposed to have a different meaning. Because Raistlin was essentially two people when he entered the Tower in 352 AC (he was both Raistlin, and had a part of Fisti's life essence as well)...that's what made him Master of Past and Present. It doesn't mean he has mastery over time...it means he is the Master in the Past (Fistandantilus) and the Master of the Present (Raistlin). ("Master" meaning bad a** mo-fo wizard)
Because Raistlin was essentially two people when he entered the Tower in 352 AC...
Is this a specific ToHS addendum? Because I thought he was two people only on the second time (during the Dwargate War timeline). And If so, how exactly was he two people before merging with Fistandantilus after defeating him? I'm confused.
Edit: besides, I seem to recall Fistandantilus himself being surprised when Raistlin informed him of his MoPaT status?
Is this a specific ToHS addendum? Because I thought he was two people only on the second time (during the Dwargate War timeline). And If so, how exactly was he two people before merging with Fistandantilus after defeating him? I'm confused.
Well, specifically it'd be a Soulforge thing (maybe even "Test of the Twins"...but I don't think so). Fisti was feeding off of Raistlin to stay alive...but Raistlin stole some of Fisti's life essence to stay alive after the Test as well.
Edit: besides, I seem to recall Fistandantilus himself being surprised when Raistlin informed him of his MoPaT status?
I think that would be because it was then that Fistandantilus realized he screwed up...in making trying to make himself the Master of Past and Present...he made it possible for Raistlin to take that role. Raistlin is the true Master of Past and Present...not Fistandantilus. The Guardians know that...which is why they didn't allow Fisti to enter in 39 AC (according to ToHS)...and why in War of the Twins they almost killed Raistlin, because they thought that he was Fisti.
It's a bit dizzying...and some of this is specualtion on my part...but I like where this is going. I am very much looking forward to the book based off of Legends...and hope they can get Tracy to do an even larger write up on his River of Time diagram from Annotated Legends. (given some revelations in ToHS, a new creature, and the River of Time diagram...I think it is going to turn out that Fisti did not die in the blast that leveled Zhaman like was previously thought...that's my prediction)
(given some revelations in ToHS, a new creature, and the River of Time diagram...I think it is going to turn out that Fisti did not die in the blast that leveled Zhaman like was previously thought...that's my prediction)
Well, we had to do something about that pesky demilich in DL3, you know.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, we had to do something about that pesky demilich in DL3, you know.
Yeah.
It meshes very well with Tracy's diagram...when one looks at that, you get the very distinct impression that everything in Legends happened as it happened with Fistandantilus and Denubis, essentially...all the way up until Caramon convinces Raistlin not to go through with it. In the original Timeline, that never happened...Phergas either wasn't there at all, or at the very least was unable to make it to the Tower to stop Fistandantilus ('cause remember it was Tas who saved Tanis who saved Caramon...that wouldn't have happened in the original Timeline because there was no kender hoppin' around).
Anyway...that's just my take on it...I'll wait until this summer to make my final decision, though.
Also, you don't need Phergas there to stop Fistandilus because Fistandilus didn't succeed where Raistlin did. Fistandilus never made it to the Abyss, so it doesnt matter.
No, that was the whole point of my post. The history books had it wrong...they only thought Fistandantilus failed...but he didn't. I think Tracy's musings on the subject in Annotated Chronicles certainly insinuate the fact that the true Timeline had the end of the world in 360 AC because of Fistandantilus, and the fact that Sovereign Press created the Remnant (which I assume would replace the Fisti Lich)...I think that they are going to go this way as well.
It has never made much sense to me...the High God decreed that the mortals could not effect time...it was like a pebble being thrown into a river. He's human...how could he have survived when Fistandantilus didn't? So how did Raistlin change the past? The answer...he didn't. Both Fistandantilus and Raistlin were successful in opening (and entering) the Portal. Although they didn't do it unscathed...which left a Remnant behind when they were blown through.
That's what I think, at least.
Despite musings to the side (although the ones you brought up are intriguing), Fist is meant to fail casting his magic, magic that he couldn't handle, which would argueably make his current stats make perfect sense. but not for Raist, who really, really, really, would have to be something like 39-43 in character levels in order to even *think* about defeating Tak and all of her minions.
go ahead and chalk up Fisty's stuff to his own foolishness. but raist is the very definition of what a epic wizard is. He is even more deserving of having epic levels than even Elminster of Forgotten Realms. And that's...my two scents.
He casts the Timereaver spell at the end of the trilogy.
Unless he gained 17 levels during the books, I wouldn't use the spell to determine Raistlin's level.
....two more scents
none the less, Raist still would have to be rediculously epic on order to do the feats described in legends. and the popular fan level for Raist suprisingly fits into what would be needed for the timereaver spell.
Well...he'd have to be a rediculously high level to do the things that Caramon and Tas saw in the future. But he never got to that point...so how high was his level really?
I'm going to bet they don't put him very high...beacuse there comes a point where it's just silly. And Level 39 has certainly hit that point.
exactly. a ridiculously powerful mage who destroyed all of Tak's army and forced her into coming after himself while in the prime material plane. when you look at that, 39 aint so ridiculous.
Well, I'm fairly certain that Crysania did most of the destroying of the "army."
As for the battle on the material plane...the point was to bring Takhisis out of the Abyss because her true form was too powerful for Raistlin to defeat on his own. Basically he needed to destroy her avatar.
So the question is...how powerful is her avatar? It depends. If it's anything like Tiamat, that could be done by a wizard between 25th and 30th level. If it's anything like her avatars from Tales of the Lance, it doens't matter how powerful he is, he can't defeat her (or Paladine for that matter).
And I believe that Crysania defended against the children illusion. Legends states that Raist defeated her entire personal army before she was forced to deal with him herself.
The Deities and Demigods Tiamat isn't a Greater Goddess but _would_ wipe the floor with Fist - with all 5 heads tied behind her back. Somebody needs to go and beef Fist up for his next appearance. I mean, killing Ariakas with one hit is possible by the rules (power attack, two-handed, crit, massive damage) and so is normal bows and arrows bringing down Beryl (lot of crits). So there had better be a decent chance for Raist to kill something at least as tough as De&De Tiamat.
For whatever reason, Paladine can do this easily but its a major chore for Takhasis.
Thus, if Fizban had been "truly" destroyed then he would have died forever.
I tend to think though that we never saw Part 2 of Raistlin's plan, how he intended to achieve godhood. In my campaign part of Raistlin's plan involved reading the Torbil after stealing part of Takhasis' power.
Thus stealing Gilean's power and defeating her.
While it's not "in the rules" there's no such thing as an avatar in Krynn really whenever Margeret Weis and Hickman write.
Which creates a big problem when trying to put D&D rules to the Dragonlance pantheon. They've never really fit very well.
For whatever reason, Paladine can do this easily but its a major chore for Takhasis.
This is because of what Huma made her swear to do. Before the 3rd Dragon War, the Abyss was just her home. After the 3rd Dragon War, the Abyss became her prison.
Thus stealing Gilean's power and defeating her.
I don't know how he did it...maybe we'll never know. But Raistlin at Level 40 is just...well, I don't buy it.
Thus stealing Gilean's power and defeating her.
I don't know how he did it...maybe we'll never know. But Raistlin at Level 40 is just...well, I don't buy it.
The problem isn't how Raistlin planned and executed Takhisis' downfall...that we can leave to a simple footnote saying something like "with the knowledge of Fistandantilus Raistlin discovered a weak point in Takhisis' armor" (figuratively of course) and then just not explain what that was (whether it's a matter of something he personally did or simply interference by the other gods, or maybe he struck her weakened true form in the Abyss).
The big question is how he managed to achieve godhood afterwards. I mean, what? He used the soulstone on Takhisis? Made a deal with the High God? Pointed to the preservation of balance and his status as the mightiest mortal within a thousand lightyears? And the other gods agreed to it why? Or did they even have a choice in the matter?
The big question is how he managed to achieve godhood afterwards. I mean, what?
Ah yeah...that's the easy part...he simply needs to steal the Tobril from Gilean. Gilean being the neutral observer that he is, wouldn't stop him. Once Raistlin opens that book and reads it...insta-godhood.
I just hope Raistlin didn't stop to say "LOSER" on the way out.
Another possibility was that Raistlin actually made a deal with Takhasis after Crysannia dying. The future showed the Queen quite alive but PALADINE dead. Her offer might have been to make Raistlin a god and to team up on the gods of good while Raistlin intedned to destroy them all.
I prefer my Gilean theory though
Brimstone, don't you think that Gilean would stop Raistlin because of the huge upset to balance that would be? He would have been an extra god on the evil side which I don't think that Gilean would allow to happen at all.
It's just as likely that Timereaver calculates range of travel from the caster's origin point as it is that the point of current casting. Therefore, I don't think we can use Raistlin's jump from 0 PC to 39/100 AC to prove anything one way or the other.
And according to the Atlas of the Dragonlance World, all the constellations were still present in the possible future Tas and Caramon visited--the Queen of Darkness had been displaced to the edge of the sky, and the Hourglass occupied her former position opposite the Valiant Warrior.
Matthew L. Martin, who doesn't even like Legends that much. ;)
I think it is going to turn out that Fisti did not die in the blast that leveled Zhaman like was previously thought...that's my prediction)
In the WotL sourcebook, they mention a shadow dragon that resides in Skullcap that is bound to the ruins by the power of Fisti who resides further down in the bowels of the ruins as a lich. Fisti must still exist because that shadow dragon is still imprisoned there afaik (no sources that I'm aware of have alluded to his freedom UNLESS he's supposed to be the same shadow dragon in the Dhamon Saga, but I don't think that is the case)
Effectively, Raistlin has his own research under Fistandalius plus every single bit of knowledge Fistandalius had himself. The presumption is that basically Fistandalius and Raistlin worked on parrallel lines, which is not necessarily true in my opinion.
Raistlin has all of his own research, some based on Fistandalius' spellbooks but other work that was clearly his own such as research into the Undying Ones. Dalamar noted that Raistlin's spellbooks were certainly impressive in their own right.
Also, Fistandalius' level was for at the "height" of his doings but we don't know if he had any dramatic jumps later on or even minor doings. Obviously, he was preparing for the attack on the Queen of Darkness....we have no idea what might have really started to go on in the changes in his body and mind.
Certainly, Raistlin dramatically changed.
The series is called Legends. Now, what does legend mean? It usually means an epic story of immense proportions that is probably mostly not true. "Legions" may be exagerrated (sp?) to mean a dozen.
A true story that this reminds me of...a guy I know (who is 5'4") saw a fight once and said that the instigator of the fight was, and I quote, "the guy was HUGE!! he had to every bit of 5'8", 5'9". Hmmmm, not so huge after all. Ben Kenobi said it best when he said it all depends on your point of view.
plus, if you want to talk game rules, ghouls aren't that powerful, and there are some very weak demons in the game as well.
Dark wizards and dark clerics-plural-could mean he defeated 2 dark wizards and 2 dark clerics and still be true.
It makes a great story and was probably not intended to cause this much specualation about exactly what level these characters were in a game
I guess everything is alot weaker in Dragonlance.
I'd say that's pretty much a given. Unlike world like the Forgotten Realms, where you can't go buy your milk+8 at the epic convenience store without facing a horde of multiheaded fiendish bumblebees (don't get me wrong, I love the Realms), Dragonlance is a setting where even the lowest 1st-level peasant has a role to play in the fate of the world. In a way, the fact that anyone has the potential to become a great hero or vilain gives the setting a much more epic feel. Honestly, I don't think Raistlin ever was stronger than a CR 30 until he'd defeated the Dark Queen. Just my two cents, of course.