Raistlin as God of Neutrality - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Raistlin as God of Neutrality

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Charles_Phipps
Oct 07, 2004 10:55:38 I dislike the tight-rope feel of Gilean personally and was curious if anyone had any ideas how to make his Balancing act more interesting with his clerics doing...well...stuff.

:-)

I'm currently contemplating a major shakeup in the pantheons of Krynn with Gilean stepping down as another two gods are elevated from mortals. I'm not sure yet whom or what but I had considered the Torbil would be handed over to Raistlin Majere

(He'd never be Good but he wouldn't be Evil again)
#2
sephzero
Oct 07, 2004 10:59:33 I am not too sure how well of a job Raistlin is capable of pulling off in Gilean's position. Besides, he probably just spends endless times looking through the Torbil and ripping out pages that don't make sense anymore thanks to disregard to meddling with the River of Time by numerous parties. Either that or the Torbil is actually blank and Gilean's been winging it ever since.
#3
Charles_Phipps
Oct 07, 2004 11:02:02 Raistlin as God of Neutrality finishes reading the Torbil and basically then burns it.

The God of Neutrality knows that Takhasis, Chaos, and everyone else has thoroughly destroyed the High God's plan and it is time to essentially start from square one to make sure that things end up at something similiar to the original idea.

Raistlin would believe it is his duty to protect the free will and progressive nature of mortals probably and (ironically) his clerics would work to prevent divine interference in mortal lives.

At least my opinion
#4
dragontooth
Oct 07, 2004 12:51:37 This is stupid. Raistlin deserve to remain dead.

And no he wouldn't be neutral he is evil, and will always remain evil. No if's, and's, but's about it.
#5
Charles_Phipps
Oct 07, 2004 12:59:34 And if its stupid, its no more than Tinker Gnomes, Kender, or Gully Dwarves and I love those.

Raistlin's "Death" is also something I find a waste of a good character. Krynn could use him ressurected "cheaply" a thousand times more than they could use Dhamon Grimwulfs (no offense to him).

Also, what the devil are you talking about? Raistlin was about as evil at the end of Legends and in following appearences as a kitty cat.
#6
talinthas
Oct 07, 2004 13:05:08 tell me you're joking. waste of a good character? the waste was bringing him back in the first place!
#7
ares
Oct 07, 2004 14:12:27 i can see now of all people... huh, of never mind... anyway...

Raist is an iconic character of Dragonlance. no if's and's or but's about it.

but yeah, he's still evil. just cuz' he's evil doesn't mean he still can't make up with his family. however, his philosophy is still that of a selfish magic o' holic.

which in dl terms, means he's evil.
#8
Charles_Phipps
Oct 07, 2004 14:34:54 [tell me you're joking. waste of a good character? the waste was bringing him back in the first place!]

How? Raistlin has more personality in his pocket than the entire New Age of characters combined. It's like your speaking Portugese to me (which I don't understand) when you say its a bad thing to bring him back.

As Re: Raistlin's evil

In my opinion, Raistlin recanted all of his evil at the Portal to the Abyss. Facing that magic would not fill the whole in his heart, Raistlin knew his entire actions to this point were worthless. Hence, his obsession and hatred is all dull and no more.

He's returned to the cynical but compassionate mage of before, leaning more towards good than evil. He's saved Krynn twice after all.
#9
ares
Oct 07, 2004 14:51:35 he still wears the robes of black, even though Nuitari holds no love for him.

although compassionate, his philosophy is that of evil.
#10
Nived
Oct 07, 2004 14:54:24 Part of Dragonlance I really like is that important main characters can and do die and stay dead. Raistlin died at the end of Legends, sure his spirit came and helped out once or twice, but that was because he couldn't move on. His soul was tied to his brother's and he had to wait.

Now they're both free to move on... and hopefully stay moved on.
#11
talinthas
Oct 07, 2004 14:55:13 heh. you had to pick portuguese, the one language on the iberian peninsula i have no experience with =)

I will ask you this, then. What's wrong with Gilean? he's doing a great job holding the line.
#12
Charles_Phipps
Oct 07, 2004 14:57:14 Raistlin is dead yes, but the fact as a god he would be dead anyway but now a being of the divine. I personally stick by the "rule of comics" that death is directly proportional to the enjoyment of the series. As an ongoing series, I prefer a ressurected dead character with panache to a living but bland one.

As for Raistlin wearing the Black Robes, I imagine its largely a stylistic choice rather than a reflection of his beliefs now. He's shown absolutely no inclinations towards evil whatsoever or the ambitions. My guess is that he doesn't consider his robes really a reflection of his current beliefs anymore...especially given he has no magic.
#13
ares
Oct 07, 2004 14:57:55 Stop trying to get into a debate!

*smashes with cartoon mallet of Justice*

Hey, yeah, what is wrong with Gil?
#14
Nived
Oct 07, 2004 15:03:32 We've seen that Raist does a really bad job as a God (see legends trilogy)

We've also heard Raistlin say that if he had it to do over again he'd make the same choices (which makes him different than say... Palin who regrets his choices and wishes he could change them).

You seem to have one interpritation of Raistlin we don't seem to share. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The thing here is you asked for ours on the subject and seem to take offence that we don't like your idea.
#15
Charles_Phipps
Oct 07, 2004 15:04:57 As for Gilean, there is absolutely no expectation that I have set for him that he has not lived down to in canon (he's alot more active in my games). But I'll explain my reasons for why I would do it though...

Because it would be interesting to change the world and be an interesting bunch of adventures to run.

This campaign has been running since the original modules. Not only have we done the war of the lance, rescued Gilean from Takhasis' attempt to steal the Torbril, gone on a time tripping chronomancy adventure to stop Fistandalius from rewriting history, discovered a new continent, destroyed Chemosh and Takhasis' three demigod children, and not to mention played incredible amounts of politics in Solamnia and the Church of Paladine.....

But we've even dealt with a plot that would transform the entire world into kender.

Thus, it falls to the responsibility of the Dragon Master (our house name for DM) to come up with ever new amounts of interetsing changes to cope with and otherwise far reaching consequences for the world. No, there's nothing INNATELY wrong with Gilean but Raistlin would be more interesting.

It fits our campaign where one of the players was Raistlin's evil Elf Apprentice (after "Dragons of Spring Dawning" but before Legends), where Raistlin has been portrayed consistently as the wisest of all mortals save Anstius, where all the players believe along with their characters that he has the potential to RIGHT what has gone wrong in Heaven but know he used his powers for evil and not good....

The idea of him being a God makes sense in the context of the game and thus I'd like to think on the consequences both spiritually and physically in the realm of mortals.

RE: Raistlin as a God

Frankly, I thought it was obvious Raistlin was saying in "Dragons of Summer Flame" that repentence is an empty concept. You can't 'Undo' what you've done and you're the product of your environment both good and bad.

No he wouldn't "undo" what he's done because then it wouldn't be he who made the choice.

He certainly wouldn't go do evil again though.

The Raistlin who became a source of all evil in the world was a Raistlin who had not yet defeated the evil in his heart and was filled with emptiness and self-loathing. The Raistlin who sealed the abyss was one who had come to love his brother and respect that he'd made a great mistake while also deciding to atone for it.

It's why he was accepted by Paladine and rewarded for his actions with Krynnish Heaven ala Darth Vader.

I'd make him a God of Good were not I'm sure his change has been THAT sublime.

You seem to have one interpritation of Raistlin we don't seem to share. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The thing here is you asked for ours on the subject and seem to take offence that we don't like your idea.

I admit my interpretation isn't shared and yours is no wronger than mine at best. I'm going to give my opinions though because I do believe canon backs them up. I will point out though that even if its ambigious, nothing makes my interpretation 'wrong' I believe.

I am pretty set on the idea though and am hoping for help on the consequences thereof....though I'm still persuadable that I shouldn't remove Gilean for Raist....I just don't think it should be because he died or because he's still evil. The former I might agree with were this not an issue about the gods, the later just isn't applicable in my games.

We do take a "softer" view of then most though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Charles_Phipps Oct 07, 2004 10:55:38	I dislike the tight-rope feel of Gilean personally and was curious if anyone had any ideas how to make his Balancing act more interesting with his clerics doing...well...stuff. :-) I'm currently contemplating a major shakeup in the pantheons of Krynn with Gilean stepping down as another two gods are elevated from mortals. I'm not sure yet whom or what but I had considered the Torbil would be handed over to Raistlin Majere (He'd never be Good but he wouldn't be Evil again)
#2 sephzero Oct 07, 2004 10:59:33	I am not too sure how well of a job Raistlin is capable of pulling off in Gilean's position. Besides, he probably just spends endless times looking through the Torbil and ripping out pages that don't make sense anymore thanks to disregard to meddling with the River of Time by numerous parties. Either that or the Torbil is actually blank and Gilean's been winging it ever since.
#3 Charles_Phipps Oct 07, 2004 11:02:02	Raistlin as God of Neutrality finishes reading the Torbil and basically then burns it. The God of Neutrality knows that Takhasis, Chaos, and everyone else has thoroughly destroyed the High God's plan and it is time to essentially start from square one to make sure that things end up at something similiar to the original idea. Raistlin would believe it is his duty to protect the free will and progressive nature of mortals probably and (ironically) his clerics would work to prevent divine interference in mortal lives. At least my opinion
#4 dragontooth Oct 07, 2004 12:51:37	This is stupid. Raistlin deserve to remain dead. And no he wouldn't be neutral he is evil, and will always remain evil. No if's, and's, but's about it.
#5 Charles_Phipps Oct 07, 2004 12:59:34	And if its stupid, its no more than Tinker Gnomes, Kender, or Gully Dwarves and I love those. Raistlin's "Death" is also something I find a waste of a good character. Krynn could use him ressurected "cheaply" a thousand times more than they could use Dhamon Grimwulfs (no offense to him). Also, what the devil are you talking about? Raistlin was about as evil at the end of Legends and in following appearences as a kitty cat.
#6 talinthas Oct 07, 2004 13:05:08	tell me you're joking. waste of a good character? the waste was bringing him back in the first place!
#7 ares Oct 07, 2004 14:12:27	i can see now of all people... huh, of never mind... anyway... Raist is an iconic character of Dragonlance. no if's and's or but's about it. but yeah, he's still evil. just cuz' he's evil doesn't mean he still can't make up with his family. however, his philosophy is still that of a selfish magic o' holic. which in dl terms, means he's evil.
#8 Charles_Phipps Oct 07, 2004 14:34:54	[tell me you're joking. waste of a good character? the waste was bringing him back in the first place!] How? Raistlin has more personality in his pocket than the entire New Age of characters combined. It's like your speaking Portugese to me (which I don't understand) when you say its a bad thing to bring him back. As Re: Raistlin's evil In my opinion, Raistlin recanted all of his evil at the Portal to the Abyss. Facing that magic would not fill the whole in his heart, Raistlin knew his entire actions to this point were worthless. Hence, his obsession and hatred is all dull and no more. He's returned to the cynical but compassionate mage of before, leaning more towards good than evil. He's saved Krynn twice after all.
#9 ares Oct 07, 2004 14:51:35	he still wears the robes of black, even though Nuitari holds no love for him. although compassionate, his philosophy is that of evil.
#10 Nived Oct 07, 2004 14:54:24	Part of Dragonlance I really like is that important main characters can and do die and stay dead. Raistlin died at the end of Legends, sure his spirit came and helped out once or twice, but that was because he couldn't move on. His soul was tied to his brother's and he had to wait. Now they're both free to move on... and hopefully stay moved on.
#11 talinthas Oct 07, 2004 14:55:13	heh. you had to pick portuguese, the one language on the iberian peninsula i have no experience with =) I will ask you this, then. What's wrong with Gilean? he's doing a great job holding the line.
#12 Charles_Phipps Oct 07, 2004 14:57:14	Raistlin is dead yes, but the fact as a god he would be dead anyway but now a being of the divine. I personally stick by the "rule of comics" that death is directly proportional to the enjoyment of the series. As an ongoing series, I prefer a ressurected dead character with panache to a living but bland one. As for Raistlin wearing the Black Robes, I imagine its largely a stylistic choice rather than a reflection of his beliefs now. He's shown absolutely no inclinations towards evil whatsoever or the ambitions. My guess is that he doesn't consider his robes really a reflection of his current beliefs anymore...especially given he has no magic.
#13 ares Oct 07, 2004 14:57:55	Stop trying to get into a debate! smashes with cartoon mallet of Justice Hey, yeah, what is wrong with Gil?
#14 Nived Oct 07, 2004 15:03:32	We've seen that Raist does a really bad job as a God (see legends trilogy) We've also heard Raistlin say that if he had it to do over again he'd make the same choices (which makes him different than say... Palin who regrets his choices and wishes he could change them). You seem to have one interpritation of Raistlin we don't seem to share. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The thing here is you asked for ours on the subject and seem to take offence that we don't like your idea.
#15 Charles_Phipps Oct 07, 2004 15:04:57	As for Gilean, there is absolutely no expectation that I have set for him that he has not lived down to in canon (he's alot more active in my games). But I'll explain my reasons for why I would do it though... Because it would be interesting to change the world and be an interesting bunch of adventures to run. This campaign has been running since the original modules. Not only have we done the war of the lance, rescued Gilean from Takhasis' attempt to steal the Torbril, gone on a time tripping chronomancy adventure to stop Fistandalius from rewriting history, discovered a new continent, destroyed Chemosh and Takhasis' three demigod children, and not to mention played incredible amounts of politics in Solamnia and the Church of Paladine..... But we've even dealt with a plot that would transform the entire world into kender. Thus, it falls to the responsibility of the Dragon Master (our house name for DM) to come up with ever new amounts of interetsing changes to cope with and otherwise far reaching consequences for the world. No, there's nothing INNATELY wrong with Gilean but Raistlin would be more interesting. It fits our campaign where one of the players was Raistlin's evil Elf Apprentice (after "Dragons of Spring Dawning" but before Legends), where Raistlin has been portrayed consistently as the wisest of all mortals save Anstius, where all the players believe along with their characters that he has the potential to RIGHT what has gone wrong in Heaven but know he used his powers for evil and not good.... The idea of him being a God makes sense in the context of the game and thus I'd like to think on the consequences both spiritually and physically in the realm of mortals. RE: Raistlin as a God Frankly, I thought it was obvious Raistlin was saying in "Dragons of Summer Flame" that repentence is an empty concept. You can't 'Undo' what you've done and you're the product of your environment both good and bad. No he wouldn't "undo" what he's done because then it wouldn't be he who made the choice. He certainly wouldn't go do evil again though. The Raistlin who became a source of all evil in the world was a Raistlin who had not yet defeated the evil in his heart and was filled with emptiness and self-loathing. The Raistlin who sealed the abyss was one who had come to love his brother and respect that he'd made a great mistake while also deciding to atone for it. It's why he was accepted by Paladine and rewarded for his actions with Krynnish Heaven ala Darth Vader. I'd make him a God of Good were not I'm sure his change has been THAT sublime. You seem to have one interpritation of Raistlin we don't seem to share. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The thing here is you asked for ours on the subject and seem to take offence that we don't like your idea. I admit my interpretation isn't shared and yours is no wronger than mine at best. I'm going to give my opinions though because I do believe canon backs them up. I will point out though that even if its ambigious, nothing makes my interpretation 'wrong' I believe. I am pretty set on the idea though and am hoping for help on the consequences thereof....though I'm still persuadable that I shouldn't remove Gilean for Raist....I just don't think it should be because he died or because he's still evil. The former I might agree with were this not an issue about the gods, the later just isn't applicable in my games. We do take a "softer" view of then most though.