Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bengeldorn Oct 07, 2004 12:06:23	Preservers who defile must roll a Will Save DC 10 + spell level + amount of times previously defiled. Failing this save, they become defilers. Preservers succeeding the save lose their preserver status and become tainted. Tainted wizards are not defilers, but risk becoming so.....
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2004 12:15:15	I believe that tainted represents a Preserver who is one step closer to becoming a Defiler. I don't have the rules with me here, but I believe that either not defiling for a long time or performing some type of ritual will return you to Preserver status. One question I'd be curious to have answered is how many times can a Preserver become "tainted" and get out of it. I believe that sliding all the way to Defiler simply makes it harder to go back to preserving as well as only being able to do so only a limited number of times before you permanetly become a defiler. I'll take a look at the rules again, but this was my impression. **** EDIT (I did have the rules here :P) The difference seems that a tainted wizard can return to being a Preserver much more easily that a Defiler (one loses 100xp per level vs 1000 for a Defiler as well as having to perform a quest).
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2004 12:33:10	Is a tainted wizard still a preserver, or something different? Still a preserver. A tainted wizard is a preserver who has defiled. Is the the risk for a tainted wizard higher than for a preserver? Yes: Preservers who defile must roll a Will Save DC 10 + spell level + amount of times previously defiled A tainted wizard can gat a conversion spell and 'reset' the number of times they have defiled to zero. They are no longer tainted (unless the tempation returns and they defile again). Does a tainted wizard risk to defile while he intended to preserve? No, he risks becoming a defiler only when he defiles, the same as any other preserver. Every time he does, the temptation intensifies. The DC is low, you're in serious trouble, you can always gat a conversion spell later... Sorry for the lack of examples.
#4 jihun-nish Oct 07, 2004 12:52:07	I think that Sadira is a good example of a tainted wizard on the verge of becoming a defiler. Lucky for her she was given the gift of clerical sun magic.
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 07, 2004 13:25:07	I think that Sadira is a good example of a tainted wizard on the verge of becoming a defiler. Lucky for her she was given the gift of clerical sun magic. She wasn't gifted with clerical sun magic. She was gifted with the ability to use the Sun's energy to quicken her spells, in the same way that other wizards use plants, and dragons use animals. She is only not considered a defiler, because she's now using a different energy source. And at night, it doesn't even work, so she would have to rely on her normal spellcasting abilities - which could be problematic.
#6 bengeldorn Oct 07, 2004 14:10:38	Ok, before this leads to something complete different, I want to thank you for you're replys. Jon explained it to me something like this: There are preservers, defilers and tainted wizards. A preserver is a wizard who has no taint and is able to preserve and to defile. She souldn't be detected by a defiler scent spell. A tainted wizard is a wizard who has at least defiled once and therefore got tainted. She still is able to preserve and to defile, but she would be detected by a defiler scent spell. A defiler is a wizard who is tainted and not able to preserve. As she is tainted she would be detected by a defiler scent spell. The risk to become a defiler occurs to tainted wizards and preservers only when they defile. Tainted wizards tend to become faster a defiler, because they have at least defiled once.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2004 15:06:06	I remember the time (about one and a half year ago) when I was a newbie here, and asked the same questions. Since than at least ten people asked the same. To the credit of the team and the community everybody got answer. But shouldn't it be a sign to the athas.org team, that this section of the book needs a more clear re-write? I suggested this in the past already, but I was ignored. C'mon, people here are not stupid, if a lot of them has problems with this than it's maybe really hard to understand.
#8 nytcrawlr Oct 07, 2004 15:34:39	I think that Sadira is a good example of a tainted wizard on the verge of becoming a defiler. Actually, if you read the Troy interview by Eric thread, Sadira is a defiler. Something most of us suspected all along.
#9 jon_oracle_of_athas Oct 08, 2004 13:22:10	To the credit of the team and the community everybody got answer. But shouldn't it be a sign to the athas.org team, that this section of the book needs a more clear re-write? I suggested this in the past already, but I was ignored. C'mon, people here are not stupid, if a lot of them has problems with this than it's maybe really hard to understand. I will look into it and see if I can rephrase or provide an example.
#10 jihun-nish Oct 08, 2004 14:07:02	Actually, if you read the Troy interview by Eric thread, Sadira is a defiler. Something most of us suspected all along. Yeah, your right. I just kind of hoped she could of been more tainted then defiled since in my book defilers are more evil (or very much careless about what happens around them, which is quite similar.) then good aligned. And ... welll with what she's done (freeing Tyr, saving the world and all) I see her as a good person.
#11 elonarc Oct 08, 2004 14:28:46	I did not like the character of Sadira at all. She is totally ruthless in what she is doing and gives a **** about the consequences. I liked the scene in Nibenay where she meets the young preserver again who helped her earlier. He has been cast out of the Veiled Alliance because of Sadiras actions (she defiled the whole public garden, killing the trees and, in consequence, a hundred slaves) and just tells her how much he depises her before he gets himself killed by templars. [/flame off] Sorry for this rant, I am no big fan of the Prism Pentad in general and especially not of Sadira (she tops even the dumb mul).
#12 zombiegleemax Oct 08, 2004 15:05:51	I will look into it and see if I can rephrase or provide an example. The way Bengeldorn describes it just above my post is maybe a good start for that. Thanks Jon for taking care of this!
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 08, 2004 16:39:56	Yeah, your right. I just kind of hoped she could of been more tainted then defiled since in my book defilers are more evil (or very much careless about what happens around them, which is quite similar.) then good aligned. And ... welll with what she's done (freeing Tyr, saving the world and all) I see her as a good person. Well, defilers are able to justify to themselves, and rationalize excuses as to why defiling is acceptable. some simply don't care, but others do actually mentally go through the excersize. dosen't make them any less defiler. Remember, the 2E defiler could be any non-good alignment. So, not all of them were evil.
#14 nytcrawlr Oct 08, 2004 16:42:09	Yeah, your right. I just kind of hoped she could of been more tainted then defiled since in my book defilers are more evil (or very much careless about what happens around them, which is quite similar.) then good aligned. And ... welll with what she's done (freeing Tyr, saving the world and all) I see her as a good person. IMO you can be evil and still do those things, just means you are doing them for your own, selfish reasons. Or, and this is probably more probable, Sadira is more neutral than good or evil.
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 09, 2004 2:36:41	But shouldn't it be a sign to the athas.org team, that this section of the book needs a more clear re-write? Perhaps simply calling the number of times defiled 'taint points' or something similar would help (ie; a 'tainted wizard' is a preserver with 'taint points')
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 09, 2004 4:20:56	my favorite defiler anti-hero character was the defiler in one of the module short fictions who ran to tyr with an elf tribe, earning their respect, looking for his sister he had been seperaed from for a long time. he was a defiler because he was a really bad student as a child and his sister could preserve while he lacked the control and became a warrior instead, but could still cast low level defiler magic. i thought he was a really super keen and uniquely athasian character.
#17 flip Oct 11, 2004 7:55:16	Sorry for this rant, I am no big fan of the Prism Pentad in general and especially not of Sadira (she tops even the dumb mul). The takeaway point, perhaps, being that Athas doesn't have real heros (subtitle of DS2 aside).
#18 nytcrawlr Oct 11, 2004 13:54:05	The takeaway point, perhaps, being that Athas doesn't have real heros (subtitle of DS2 aside). Pretty much Athas in a nutshell IMO.