It appears to me that the post WOS products are attempting to "fix" the "mistakes" of the "5th age" as most of the unique elements pre WOS are unraveling. This started during WOS when the sheild around Silvanesti has fallen, the Shadow sorcerer is revealed to be Takhisis, and 3 of the overlords die. Like I said originally, at first I thought it was a good compromise. but since then:
Thunder and Splendor die in the Linsha series
The Dwarves are now ruled by the Hylar once again and shut up in their mountain
Palin's son, wwho was supposed to be learning the secrets of Dragon Magic is now hanging around Flotsam with no mention of Sunrise.
In the Dhamon trilogy 2 of the Heroes of the Heart are killed and another transformed.
In the "Wizards Conclave" the Orders of High Sorcery appear to have made up their minds that wild sorcery must be stopped and it appears that sorecrers are about to become an endangered species(ironic since it was wild magic that saved teh Tower at Wayreth).
Ogre titans have not been seen in the Minotaur Wars, even though the book shows ogres as allies of teh minotaurs.
Lake of Death kills yet another Hero of th Heart as well as Sable. Rumors circulate that Gellidus will be removed through the Key of Destiny Campaign.
It seems that the only permanant effects of the Age of Mortals are those put forward through Weiss and Hickman. The Minotaur invasion flows out of Wos, homeless elves (WoS), struggle for control of the Pantheon(Dark Disciple), even the Tarmak invasion comes from Weiss and Hickman as it involves their creations from DOSF.
Seriously name one afflicted kender taht has appeared others than Blister and those from Spirit in the Wind. with the new Rise of Solamnia series are we going to see the KoS chnge the measure enough where the become more like the Legion, thereby making LoS obsolete? How long before the clerics consider Mystics heathens and someone pulls a Kingpriest and leads acrusade against them? How long before dragonspawn die out as there are no Overlords to create them? How long before the terraformed lands of teh Overlords return back to normal now that the Overlords are gone? It seems that things are quickly moving back to the way things were after the WotL, with the exception of no Paladine and Takhisis conflict sweepin everyone up in the middle. I don't know if these are dictates of Soveriegn Presss, or WoTC, but after finishing Lake of Death it seems that a lot of Pro-5th Age/Saga people are getting the short end of the stick, and I'd hate to see another division of the fan base. It's bad enough that a lot of the potential from some of the 5th material has been discrarded.
Sovereign press said that mysticism, sorcery and the legion of steel are here to stay.
the big overlords will be killed off, but the smaller ones will remain.
Seriously if it were true the elves would by now have retaken their homes and the minotaur offensive would have failed horribly. All I see is new and exciting plot material. And it's still the 5th Age.
Besides, the concept 'Nth Age fan' is an odd one to me. I'm a Dragonlance fan, it's all good. :whatsthis
Tarmak Empire is definately not a 4th Age thingy.
Things change. Get over it. ;)
Maybe you should tell that the 4th Age fans that complained about every little thing that was done in the 5th Age.
But hey, atleast I'm not the only one outspoken against this direct campaign against the pre-WoS 5th Age.
Before I get to the heart of the topic, allow me to share a little background. I have been reading DL books since 1986 and own all of them to date. I was initrially shocked at the ending of DOSF and thought that was the end of DL. When Jean Rabe's DONA series came out, I was happy the DL was continuing but it didn't take long to figure out that this wasn't your father's Krynn anymore. now I know the series was controversial and split the fanbase, so there is no need to go over all that again. My initail reaction was "well, this is different, but it has potential". Then came WOS that was designed to pave the way for DL gaming and reunite that fanbase. Overall I really thought it was a decent compromise, we have the return of High Sorcery and Divine magic as well as wild sorcery and mysticism. We lose 3 of teh Dragon Overlords, but there are 2 remaining, as well as the lesser Dragonlords. But now after reading the last few DL novels and the gaming products I'm concerned over the fan base being split yet again. Again a warning the spoilers are comming.
To provide my own background, I came into DL when I read Dragons of Winter Night back in 1989, and stayed interested until Kindred Spirits in 1991. By that point, the books didn't seem to have the magic I'd found in the originals, and with my interest turning more towards Ravenloft (which I've stuck with ever since), I drifted out of DL. I came back with The Second Generation to some extent, but when I read Dragons of Summer Flame I figured "Ah. They've closed the book; they'll probably wrap up the series that are still running (Warriors was still working out at that time) and then that's it for DL."
However, the discussion of the Fifth Age game online and in DRAGON kindled my interest, and I eagerly anticipated it. When it launched, I became one of its most avid backers.
Which is why current trends leave me so disappointed.
How long before dragonspawn die out as there are no Overlords to create them? How long before the terraformed lands of teh Overlords return back to normal now that the Overlords are gone?
The former is already happening--although originally, you didn't need to be an Overlord or even a Lord to create spawn. Khellendros did it--almost by accident--back in 1 SC, before Malys even arrived on Ansalon. His lieutenant Gale also knew how. I understand this has been changed by later material, though.
And the latter's starting to happen also, I believe, with the exception of the Desolation.
It seems that things are quickly moving back to the way things were after the WotL, with the exception of no Paladine and Takhisis conflict sweepin everyone up in the middle. I don't know if these are dictates of Soveriegn Presss, or WoTC, but after finishing Lake of Death it seems that a lot of Pro-5th Age/Saga people are getting the short end of the stick, and I'd hate to see another division of the fan base. It's bad enough that a lot of the potential from some of the 5th material has been discrarded.
I've been forecasting a reversion to the Second Generation era for a while now--it was the re-emphasis of minotaurs, combined with the changes you note, that suggested such a thing to me. The more that happens, the more I'm convinced that I was right.
I'd like to see something constructive done. Recently, it seems that what we've been getting has been either destruction or a return to status quo ante DoSF. The only new elements that come to mind are the minotaur invasion, the brute invasion--which I find largely redundant--or the Beloved of Chemosh, who have potential but could easily become cardboard cutouts.
Matthew L. Martin, Dragonlance Heretic and Blasphemer. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
From a setting perspective I think that Krynn without the gods was too radical a departure for many people. It always had the virtue of being the most tightly-written campaign setting. It seemed to be flailing a little in the Fifth Age. Most mortal magic having been taken away, the Dragon Overlords seemed functionally unbeatable. The whole thing was just sort of going nowhere.
Hey, the SAGA people shoudl at least be happy that sorcerors and mystics have escaped all the limitations they used have. Sorcerors can now pretty much cast any spell wizards can, regardless of whether it affects the living or not. Mystics can now affect the unliving. That's a HUGE boost.
Well, as a novel reader, this means little. ;)
From a setting perspective I think that Krynn without the gods was too radical a departure for many people.
This I can understand.
It always had the virtue of being the most tightly-written campaign setting.
Umm, you'll have to provide an example, as after Legends came out, the setting went nowhere fast.
The whole thing was just sort of going nowhere.
See above - it was post-Legends/pre-DoSF that went nowhere.
The 5th Age team was laying the groundwork for a great many things, including the minotaur invasion. But everything came to a halt with the announcement of WoS and the ending of SAGA due to 3E and other factors.
The 5th Age team also actually released products about the things they introduced - Sylvan Shield, Rise of the Titans, Citadel of Light, the Palanthas book.
They tried new ideas with products - Odyssey of Gilthanas and Palanthas.
In the end, I would think that DoSF was the best thing to ever happen to DL - it shook the world up in such a way that one would think there was no going back. But, we are going back. To before DoSF.
I don't want the Knights of Solamnia to get in control, any more than the Knights of Neraka to, but there's a lot of stuff that just got TOO beat up by Overlords.
The Dragon Overlords themselves are pretty limiting for a campaign, IMO.
I would like to see the Ogre Titans more though, can't understand why such a neat element is just tossed aside.
Key of Destiny does use a good blending of the elements IMO, including Afflicted and True Kender. Main problem with Key of Destiny is the fact that it starts in the middle of no where, with no clues on how to start a group there.
Key of Destiny does use a good blending of the elements IMO, including Afflicted and True Kender.
And dragonspawn, the Peak of Malys, the Legion of Steel, sorcery, mysticism, ogre titans, the knights of Neraka, and a lot more.
Cheers,
Cam
I dropped Dragonlance, despite years of playing it uninterrupted, like a bad habit after "Dragons of Summer Flame." Believe me, when I saw the SAGA system I was happy and hoped that my fears that Dragonlance was dead were unjustified. Then I read it and I couldn't help but find that I hated it. I even read the books and I still hated it. Don't get me wrong, it was a valiant effort to interject some life into a 'dead' setting but I just didn't think it stood up to the old.
A brief run down of what I didn't care for...
1. The destruction of the old orders of the gods
It wasn't like they continued to worship Paladine and company from afar, it was like that suddenly all the efforts of Goldmoon and the War of the Lance were for absolutely nothing. It was once again back to the Age of Despair, the gods were CONFIRMED to have abandoned the world though.
2. The abandoning of the D20 2E system
I don't play non-D&D and I couldn't figure out what was most important...CONVERTING OLD CHARACTERS. Who wants to play a new character after a decade of play really? (I honestly forgot when Saga came out)
3. The Dragon Overlords
One of the most annoying elements of the setting was the fact that it was quite suddenly every single nation in Krynn being under a dictatorship. The best analogy I can draw is that Krynn suddenly became "Dark Sun" rather than Krynn. There were no good nations, only ones ruled by evil omnipotent-undefeatable badguys that even if you overthrew them would only result in new omnipotent bad guys taking over.
4. The destruction of the Orders of High Sorcery
The portrayal of them as a bunch of old guys doing absolutely nothing but hiding underground while magic ran out in their magical artifacts was the saddest thing imaginable to me. I know the Test and so forth was supposed to still be going on but it seemed with wild magic that the ancient tradition was dead.
Why study when you can make up your own spells?
5. The destruction of Kenderhome
What the hell is an afflicted kender and why the hell do I want one in my game? It's like destroying the Shire only to have all the Hobbits become badass mohawk wielding Mad Max warriors...admittedly cool in its own way but attacking the flavor of the characters.
6. The unrealistic changes in the landscape
Ergoth is a big icecube, the bay of the Bloodsea is a big icecube, Malys territory is a gigantic volcano....its like "Let's continue to live in the most hostile environments imaginable and pretend its remotely not going to result in large scale plague, famine, and the end of civilization"
7. The Loss of Silvastani
Effectively, it might as well have simply had everyone die in the place for all that was left of being able to adventure there or have people from it.
8. The Dictatorship of Qualinesti
Almost as bad as the Dragon Overlords.
9. The Destruction of the Knights of Solamnia
With no more Solamnia not ruled by Khelendros then my favorite character in Krynn are gone.
10. The Knights of Takhasis fall to dishonor
11. The betrayal of the creator's vision
Nuff said.
Waste of valuable characters.
To summarize, what makes Dragonlance enjoyable for me? Well I'd have to say its the Gods, Knights of Solmania, Orders of High Sorcery, Kender, Silvastani, Qualinesti, and the realistic landscape vs. Forgotten Realms. In effect, everything that I loved was wiped out and was left with a pretty much lackluster setting entirely in its place....at least to me.
I'm sure some people loved it but I think of it as something that doesn't appeal to me at all.
Okay, I'm going to be honest....
1. The destruction of the old orders of the gods
It wasn't like they continued to worship Paladine and company from afar, it was like that suddenly all the efforts of Goldmoon and the War of the Lance were for absolutely nothing. It was once again back to the Age of Despair, the gods were CONFIRMED to have abandoned the world though.
Actually, if you read the game material closely, most of the old clerics continued to keep faith and follow the ways of the gods, even in their absence.
2. The abandoning of the D20 2E system
I don't play non-D&D and I couldn't figure out what was most important...CONVERTING OLD CHARACTERS. Who wants to play a new character after a decade of play really? (I honestly forgot when Saga came out)
Well, the thing was, there weren't that many people who were still playing old characters. AD&D DL had died two years beforehand. I think management may have made a mistake in not using a D&D variant or allowing for dual-statted products, but it wasn't like they abandoned a thriving fan base.
3. The Dragon Overlords
One of the most annoying elements of the setting was the fact that it was quite suddenly every single nation in Krynn being under a dictatorship. The best analogy I can draw is that Krynn suddenly became "Dark Sun" rather than Krynn. There were no good nations, only ones ruled by evil omnipotent-undefeatable badguys that even if you overthrew them would only result in new omnipotent bad guys taking over.
I think you underestimate the impact that the destruction of Dragon Overlords and Lords would have on the setting--no one retook Dimernesti after Brine was killed, after all. And it's only half of Ansalon that fell under the Dragons; the rest remained under mortal rule.
4. The destruction of the Orders of High Sorcery
The portrayal of them as a bunch of old guys doing absolutely nothing but hiding underground while magic ran out in their magical artifacts was the saddest thing imaginable to me. I know the Test and so forth was supposed to still be going on but it seemed with wild magic that the ancient tradition was dead.
Why study when you can make up your own spells?
Why study when it provides no benefit? Unlike the clerics, there is literally no purpose to wizards without magic--and with the more free nature of Ancient Sorcery, the rules of the Conclave are nigh-impossible to enforce or even counterproductive unless you adopt a 'kill them all' approach.
5. The destruction of Kenderhome
What the hell is an afflicted kender and why the hell do I want one in my game? It's like destroying the Shire only to have all the Hobbits become badass mohawk wielding Mad Max warriors...admittedly cool in its own way but attacking the flavor of the characters.
It was Kendermore, actually--Kenderhome (Hylo) remained untouched, and there were plenty of true kender around. I liked it as eliminating a redundancy and demonstrating how terrible Malys really was.
6. The unrealistic changes in the landscape
Ergoth is a big icecube, the bay of the Bloodsea is a big icecube, Malys territory is a gigantic volcano....its like "Let's continue to live in the most hostile environments imaginable and pretend its remotely not going to result in large scale plague, famine, and the end of civilization"
The bay of the Blood Sea wasn't a 'big icecube', and the Desolation, while unpleasant, wasn't all active volcanoes. Besides, again, this was only about one-quarter to one-third of Ansalon. (The lesser Dragon Lords didn't do the landshaping.)
7. The Loss of Silvastani
Effectively, it might as well have simply had everyone die in the place for all that was left of being able to adventure there or have people from it.
Actually, this gave Silvanesti heroes (of whom there were plenty) an additional plot hook if they wanted it, and aside from adventure DLT1, Silvanesti's never been that useable for long-term gaming anyway. Besides, the Shield was probably going to be dealt with fairly quickly in the original plans, from what I've gathered. (This is one area where I disagree with several of my fellow 5A boosters--I don't mind the Shield going down, although I wish it had been less of a side affair.)
8. The Dictatorship of Qualinesti
Almost as bad as the Dragon Overlords.
The dictatorship of Qualinesti was one of the Dragon Overlords.
9. The Destruction of the Knights of Solamnia
With no more Solamnia not ruled by Khelendros then my favorite character in Krynn are gone.
Actually, the southern half of Solamnia is embattled but free, as is southern Sancrist. The Knights of Solamnia were actually enjoying a renaissance.
10. The Knights of Takhasis fall to dishonor
I think this was pretty much inevitable, actually--there is a fundamental tension between Ariakas' ideals of honor and the goal of doing anything necessary to ensure the triumph of the Dark Queen. The balance tipped towards the latter, especially with the desperate situation the Knighthood found itself in.
11. The betrayal of the creator's vision
The risks of something you do as work-for-hire . . . and the creator and one of the original writers wrote Dragons of Summer Flame.
I'm sure some people loved it but I think of it as something that doesn't appeal to me at all.
I get the impression that you're taking most of your vision of the pre-WoS Fifth Age from the War of Souls and the Sovereign Press materials. Those works, regardless of their other merits, do deviate from the Fifth Age as presented in the original lineup. This may not be a bad thing, but it does require care when trying to assess the Fifth Age as originally intended.
Matthew L. Martin
If the Knights of Solamnia had been featured more and showing the "old stuff" was still applicable then it wouldn't have been bad. It just felt like a compleetly different setting with the same logo. My perception may be off but it seemed that the Dragon Overlords had actually annihilated their own race in the Dragon Purge too...which also destroyed one of my loves for the game...
The abundance and influence of thousands (my perecption) of dragons
In any case, its a somewhat unfair question since the dragons were ABSENT the entire time during the Age of Despair and even reign of Istar. What REALLY bugs me I suppose is the fact that they felt the need to do the Dragon Purge at all.
Why *DO* we need Epic Dragons (I suppose the best name for them) killing each other and ruling over entire regions? Why not simply DRAGONS since they can work together and have the same power to protect themselves as normal people.
Hell, just give Dragons levels and have them work their own sorcery and troubles on the world.
Why did you need to KILL them all in a massive civil war and institute these gigantic fat things as overlords of all regions, why say they simply conquer everything? Why not RPG out a "War of the Dragons" with all the accompanying hardships rather than say the defenses of the world causally go ker-splat?
Hell make the Metallic Dragons a NATION in Krynn and have them be as politically uninterested in fighting as Solamnia and the elves have been.
The Dragons weren't predominant because the Dragonlance setting was supposed to be about people. More so than classic dungeon-crawling, DL was about "human" issues like faith, politics, cooperation, community and relationships.
To people that had been involved with the setting for a long time, it felt as if Dragonlance was torn down to take it and make it the setting for the SAGA game system. Hence shredding all the establishments of the setting that were not deemed necessary outside of d20. It felt like cannibalization.
Since the leading complaint among veteren DL gamers was that SAGA was annoying and that elements of the setting that were long-beloved (the gods, the Orders of High Sorcery, etc.) had been wiped out to make room for SAGA, those gamers did not like the Fifth Age at all. I knew many DL vets that flatly refused to have anything to do with it.
Wizards tried wooing people back by releasing late 2E d20 type modules but it still felt like a lame attempt and many people didn't like where the setting itself had gone. It was not just an issue of not liking the card game. That's what brought us to the current stage of trying bring back a lot of the old elements, in order to win back the DL old-timers.
A sort of compromise is being made here. They could have eradicated sorcery and mysticism when the gods came back, but they didn't. They could simply brought the gods back in without killing off Takhisis and demoting Paladine, but they didn't.
The Dragon Overlords have been dropping like flies, but frankly invincible super dragons started to paralyze the setting even more, since they were becoming as much distant, unbeatable fixtures as gods. I think that this was part of the reason for the Dragon Purge, because an explanation was needed as to why the native dragons wouldn't put a stop to super-dragons becoming dictators over mortals and dragons alike. The Overlords ultimately become onerous and there was no way you could bring back the gods and still have room for the Overlords.
I also noticed that they seem to be getting rid of all the 5th age new introductions. Which is kind of sad, but makes me happy. I never liked any of it, so it doesnt bother me. What sucks though is that people who just started getting into the setting with that stuff or fully like the stuff that happened. Now they have all of it leaving. Kind of reminds me of how I felt when the 5th age happened... everything I liked about the setting going away or changed too drastically. And now its doing the reverse..
I personally feel that when the gods came back this last time, they should have named it a new Age. To me, this Age isn't that much similar to the 5th age. But than again, maybe I want this to happen for selfish reasons. If they made a new Age after the Gods came back.. I could just say "ignore the 5th age.. its horrible". Instead now I have to say..well when the 5th age started it sucked.. but this part of the 5th age is cool. So who knows.
While I understand that some people like the 5th age elements, I don't really think it is the majority. Too many people complained after DoSF of the way Dragonlance was headed. They *had* to get Wies and Hickman back in there.. too many people were just turning away.
While I feel bad that 5th age fans feel betrayed, I am happy that the Dragonlance I knew and loved is coming back to me in bits and piecies. And pretty soon, I hope to see it whole again.
The changes in the Saga system were dictated by teh events of DoSF, with the gods leaving and taking away divine and moon magic. I'm sure we've all heard the story of DoSf supposing to be a trilogy and crunced into 1 book, as well as being the swans song for DL. After it was decided to continue, it was teh Saga designers having to work within the restrictions created by DoSF.
I agree many vets didn't want to deal with it, and they fan base split much like Greyhawk's after Gygax left. I believe WoS offered a great comprise for fans of both ages. My intent when starting this thread was not to get into a "My age is better than your age" discussion, but more to express my feelings of betrayal as I feel that the compromise reached is slowly becoming one sided with each new product being released.
Sorcerors and Mystics made out like bandits, acquiring magical powers vastly better than what they had under SAGA.
Dragons of Summer Flame was the swan song for d20 Dragonlance, setting the stage for SAGA rules (hence "Paladine's" cryptic remark about "new magic" at the end).
But a lot of the elements that have developed were inevitable. That the Academy of Sorcery was destroyed should come as no surprise to anyone that believes in suspension of disbelief in writing. It was a big lump of defiance sitting within spitting distance of an Overlord's realm and I am sure Malys, Beryl and Khellendros considered it as having served it's purpose the minute the Knights of Takhisis/Neraka made off with the basics of sorcery.
The other realms were largely stuck with no elbow room. The Dragon Overlords were so absurdly powerful, that with magic neutered the way it was under SAGA, nobody, not the Knights, not the Legion, not the Citidel Mystics and not the Academy sorcerors, had any chance of budging them. But bringing the gods and magic back raises the suspension of disbelief issue again because there is no way that they would reasonably put up with Malys for more than a few days before getting sick of her.
As for Malys coming from "across the sea". Consider that if Malys came cruising in from the Ethereal Plane, the odds of her landing on Krynn overland would be lower, as Krynn, like Earth, has more water than landmass. Malys arrived over the sea and then flew to Ansalon. To an observer on Ansalon (and most Krynn natives are not very planes-saavy) it would seem that she came from unknown lands across the sea.
But those other SAGA elements still remain. The Legion of Steel still exists, and has been given a number of PrC's, should anybody care to actually play them. Sorcerors and mystics still exist, and have a number of PrC's to play with as well. The Knights of Neraka are ongoing villains that don't look like they will be going away anytime soon. The Ogre Titans are still in use.
The issue is that the majority of people willing to pay for DL books are going to be old-timers that preferred the old paradigm. As inidicated by True Blue, a lot DL vets get nauseous even reading most of the Fifth Age stuff. So naturally Sovereign (which as a business needs to make money) is targeting winning back the readers and gamers that were lost to SAGA.
I've been around long enough to see quite a few setting "relaunches". Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Darksun, even Forgotten Realms. Everytime it happens, it almost seems like its a new, different world. And sometimes, I kinda wish they were. Quite often, new elements are added to "liven up" the world, but often these elements clash and conflict with existing material (5th Age DL was probably the most dramatic, but I've seen it pop up in almost every relaunch) that alienate existing fans.
That being said, I view 5th Age Krynn as fodder for a new world, distinct from DL. Perhaps a world crafted by the gods and later abandoned, perhaps, with all the elements of 5th Age in play (dragon overlords, mysticism, etc). But that'd be me way of dealing with the problem
with the new Rise of Solamnia series are we going to see the KoS chnge the measure enough where the become more like the Legion, thereby making LoS obsolete? How long before the clerics consider Mystics heathens and someone pulls a Kingpriest and leads acrusade against them? How long before dragonspawn die out as there are no Overlords to create them? How long before the terraformed lands of teh Overlords return back to normal now that the Overlords are gone?
I highly doubt the Knights of Solamnia will ever be like the Legion of Steel. They've made a lot of progress since the War of the Lance, but are still traditionalists.
Not every cleric is going to consider mystics to be heathens. It will differ, based on the god you worship. The neutral gods may support mysticism as a balance issue. The good gods may have concerns, but they're good, so they won't touch them. At the Citadel of Light, many mystics there are becoming clerics of Mishakal, but they are not all becoming clerics. Mystics will co-exist with the clerics there. Only the evil gods will wholeheartedly wipe them out.
As for the dragonspawn, they are probably a casualty of the latest changes, unless they find some way of becoming a race in their own right. I'd hate to touch that story, since that's a bit too much like draconians to me. As for the lands of the overlords, I think Chislev will have a strong influence on getting them back to normal.
I'd like to see something constructive done. Recently, it seems that what we've been getting has been either destruction or a return to status quo ante DoSF. The only new elements that come to mind are the minotaur invasion, the brute invasion--which I find largely redundant--or the Beloved of Chemosh, who have potential but could easily become cardboard cutouts.
Ah, look no further than Amber and Ashes for something constructive. The appendix gives full details on that (without giving away any spoilers).
I think the new Rise of Solamnia trilogy (or whatever it will be called) will also have some construction.
Matthew L. Martin, Dragonlance Heretic and Blasphemer. :-)
all i'm stating is that some of the 5th age elemnts "was new and exciting plot material" I'm not defending one age over teh other, i'm worried that some of these fixes are going to once again splinter the fan base that WoS tried to reunite. I'm hoping that future products aren't going to further diminish the contributions of past designers, and put the DL community back where it was 4 years ago were everyone was shouting "this age is better tahn that one". As things are heading right now, the 5th age fans may find themselves alienated more and more with each new product being released
Unfortunately, the "4th age vs. 5th age" gap seems to be widening some. I think, given time, this will eventually lessen. I doubt you'll ever get rid of the rift completely, although I think it can heal some.
Part of it, though, is centered around this paranoia that "everything is reverting back to the 4th age". People see a few things happening, which are occurring to set things up for new story arcs, and they cry "foul".
Yet this is merely a prelude. None of us know for sure where things are headed. We cannot say for a certainty what the end result will be.
Personally, I think there is a movement to get back to the core of what made DL great to begin with, yet I also think steps are being taken to take Dragonlance into new territory. This isn't the time of the companions or the dragon overlords any more. Their time is done; their tales are now part of the River of Time. This is a new era, with new tales and new heroes.
From a setting perspective I think that Krynn without the gods was too radical a departure for many people.
The gods of Krynn are an integral part of the setting. The era of the Time of Darkness was a good background era, so nobody really had problems with that. The split comes with the aftermath of Dragons of Summer Flame. It was a time in the present with no gods, and that is part of what caused the rift in fandom.
HOWEVER - It added a nifty new concept, that being an era where mortals had to stand on their own. They suddenly gained power on their own, without the help of the gods. This, in turn, creates one of the coolest dynamics in Dragonlance - the rivalry of focused and ambient magic.
All the products we have coming out are geared to the "old" way. The War of the Lance, Legends, Towers of High Sorcery, Holy Order of the Stars.
War of the Lance was released in celebration of 20 years of Dragonlance. Towers of High Sorcery and Holy Orders of the Stars are books that can exist in almost any time period. They are staples of the Dragonlance setting, and books that I personally feel should have been written years ago.
As Cam mentions above, Key of Destiny has several 5th age elements in it. Plus, some of the materials from the books above can be used in the pre-WoS Age of Mortals as well.
ToHS devotes like 3 paragraphs in the entire book to Wild/Primal Sorcery, basically saying it's not as good. I'm sure we're going to see much of the same thing from HOotS.
If ToHS has any bias, then that's due to it being a book about wizards, much like Wizards' Conclave is. Jamie mentioned that there may be a possibility for a book on sorcery and mysticism, although I'm sure that would be a ways off if it were to go.
Wait and see.
I think this was pretty much inevitable, actually--there is a fundamental tension between Ariakas' ideals of honor and the goal of doing anything necessary to ensure the triumph of the Dark Queen. The balance tipped towards the latter, especially with the desperate situation the Knighthood found itself in.
I think Ariakan's will and inspiration as a leader is largely what kept the Knights of Takhisis going. Without him, it just fell apart. I just hate that they degenerated the way they did. Better to have let them fade from the setting, than to do that. *shrugs*
A sort of compromise is being made here. They could have eradicated sorcery and mysticism when the gods came back, but they didn't. They could simply brought the gods back in without killing off Takhisis and demoting Paladine, but they didn't.
Excellent point. If this was simply a "return to the 4th age", then ambient magic would be gone, and we'd be back to having Paladine and Takhisis going at it. Instead, there's a blend of elements going on, and new dynamics due to the "demotion" of Paladine and Takhisis.
The Dragon Overlords have been dropping like flies, but frankly invincible super dragons started to paralyze the setting even more, since they were becoming as much distant, unbeatable fixtures as gods.
Another excellent point. To me, they were almost like demigods. These uber-powerful nearly unbeatable foes dominated the setting to such a degree, that it was tough to add in new elements without touching upon them.
Honestly, they were created for one reason, and that was to be slain. The big theme behind the Age of Mortals seems to be humanity fighting alone against impossible odds against an unbeatable foe. The end result was that they would be killed.
I personally feel that when the gods came back this last time, they should have named it a new Age. To me, this Age isn't that much similar to the 5th age. But than again, maybe I want this to happen for selfish reasons. If they made a new Age after the Gods came back.. I could just say "ignore the 5th age.. its horrible". Instead now I have to say..well when the 5th age started it sucked.. but this part of the 5th age is cool. So who knows.
By this reasoning, the 4th age should be two ages instead. Actually, it originally was meant to be that way. Summer Flame sort of changed that. Certainly, I think the early 5th age should have a name, such as the Reign of the Overlords, or some such.
The problem with creating new ages is that if you redefined the timeline again, you would have a fanbase that wouldn't approve. By strict, in-world reasoning, there should be more ages. Yet the term "5th age" is now a strong one amongst DL fans. If we reverted to the Tales of the Lance age naming system, for example, we would find some very angry fans indeed, many of whom would claim it was an attempt to "wipe out the 5th age".
Whew! That's a lot of quoting.
My friends, I know that the current happenings in DL are causing a bit of a stir and that, once again, we have walked down the "4th age vs. 5th age" path. I've seen it on all the DL message boards.
I still think it's too early to tell what exactly is happening. Yes, some elements of the early Age of Mortals are being phased out, but that's only for that one era. The parts of Dragonlance that make it such a special world still remain. Only the direction of the story is changing.
I would advise, then, to take a "wait and see" approach. Don't make any judgments before you know the end results.
Sure mystics, sorcerers and the Legion are still around but liek I asked in my initial post for how long? Wizards Conclave sent a clear message that the Orders of High Sorcery will not allow for the existence of Wild Sorcery. And with teh new trilogy about Solamnia coming soon and all the talk about revising the Measure, it is possible, provided the Measure is changed enough, that it could cause the Legion o become redundant. Recent products have shown a track record of "fixing" 5th age "mistakes" and it seems likely it will continue. What started as an honorable compromise to reunite the fan base is showing diminshing returns for the 5th age fans.
All teh talk about the 5th age fans should be happy that Wild sorcery and Mystics are still around is kinda condescending. like someone eating a 7 course meal serving a hungry guy bread once a day and saying "at least you are not starving". There has yet to be mention in teh latest line of novels advancing the timeline of afflicted kender, or ogre titans. Coryn in Wizards Conclave is shown just how awful her former life of a sorcerer is(even though her wild sorcery saved the Tower of Wayreth). The only mention of mystics have been background characters in the Linsha trilogy (the main characters Mysticism works haphazardly due to souls sucking the energy away) Feril in Lake of Death (likely only due to Ms. Rabe writing the book), and teh kender in Amber & Ashes, who I will reserve judgement on for right now so we can see were the charcter goes (thankfully, thus far he has not been the typical Tas clone.).
What would go a long way to setting things at ease would be working more with what you have. For example, the KoS relax teh Measue enough to employ magic users in everday rank and file instead of a seperate unit like the Solamnic Auxilary Mage. However since the KoS and WoHs have a history of distrust and, at best, tolerance for one another, have the knights welcome sorcerers with open arms. This creates multiple plot threads. The sorcerers now have some back up when the WoHS begin tracking down Renegades. The distrust between the conclave and the knights deepen. The knights start learning some lessions from Ariakans example and begin to emplo arcane means showing that they are not as inflexible as they once were. you can also have traditionalists in the knights opposed to the change setting up additional political intrigue. A marriage of 4th and 5th age ideas like this provide great potential, as well as making the 5th age fans more secure that the aspects opf DL they love aren't dying a slow death and my restore faith in that compromise that WoS had brought about
I think Ariakan's will and inspiration as a leader is largely what kept the Knights of Takhisis going. Without him, it just fell apart. I just hate that they degenerated the way they did. Better to have let them fade from the setting, than to do that. *shrugs*
Ariakan was deluded in thinking that he could escape the Law of the Dark Queen - Evil always turns in upon itself.
He mistakenly believed that he could circumvent a universal axiom, simply by trying to emulate the aspects of Good that he found contributed to Good's success.
What happened was inevitable and could not have been avoided, even if Takhisis hadn't betrayed everyone by stealing the world. Had the Knights successfully conquered Ansalon Takhisis would have gotten bored with all this honor nonsense and driven the Knights to start acting more crudely anyway. Look at what happened with the ogres. They were shiny and perfect once too.
I wrote a letter to Ms. Weis about my concerns. I urge everyone who feels this way to do the same.
heh. you missed the huge discussion we had on this topic last week on the DLML =)
Well it took me longer to finish Lake of Death than I had planned(finished it Friday night) and figured I'd calm down a bit before I posted out of anger :D
Wizards Conclave sent a clear message that the Orders of High Sorcery will not allow for the existence of Wild Sorcery.
Towers of High Sorcery has a bit of a different take on the issue. I'm assuming the verdict presented there is after great discussion after the events in Wizards' Conclave.
White Robes keep an eye on sorcerers, inviting them into the Orders as wizards, and watching those who refuse.
Red Robes are directed to learn what they can from sorcerers for the betterment of magic.
Black Robes learn what they can from sorcerers to increase their own power, but if they have a chance to neutralize a sorcerer, they do so.
I doubt that groups like the Knights of Solamnia will welcome sorcerors. The Knights, as a rule, prefer godly magic and aren't likely to support wild magic now that the gods are back. The Legion of Steel however probably will continue to support sorcerors amongst their ranks, probably even more so than wizards, as they feel that sorcerors have fewer commitments pulling at their loyalty.
Towers of High Sorcery has a bit of a different take on the issue. I'm assuming the verdict presented there is after great discussion after the events in Wizards' Conclave.
White Robes keep an eye on sorcerers, inviting them into the Orders as wizards, and watching those who refuse.
Red Robes are directed to learn what they can from sorcerers for the betterment of magic.
Black Robes learn what they can from sorcerers to increase their own power, but if they have a chance to neutralize a sorcerer, they do so.
I reall y cant comment becuase i have not read Towers of High Sorcery yet, however by inviting them into the Orders and converting them cant that be seen as trying to eradicate Wild Sorcrey? By changing the way te person cast magic from Wild to Arcane nets you the same result as killing the sorcerer. In both cases there is one less sorcerer running around. Again giving the impression that the Conclave cant/wont co exist with sorcerers.
Let me give you the Hitchhiker's Guide to Krynn though
DON'T PANIC
and we'll look up "Stuff from 5th age to New Age predictions by Charles Phipps"
Here's what I think will happen to certain elements.
The Dragon Overlords- They will be annihilated. No offense but you can pretty much kiss every last one of the suckers good bye. Krynn is a setting that largely is too low key for them and their climate changes too radical. I'm afraid that fans of the Dragon Overlords will have to look elsewhere.
Sorcery- This my friend, is here to stay. The conflict between High Magic and Sorcery is getting lots of fans who WANT an all out magical war. Nothing sparks a gamer's interest than freedom to commit genocide (at least amongst my group) and I'm sure the sorcerers will soon be retaliating.
Dragonlance actually must conform to D&D 3rd edition rules so Sorcerers will remain and we have the cool dynamic between them.
Mysticism- Touch and go honestly. We have the Druid gods for their patronage so there's no "mystic class" ala Sorcerer. However, the Seeker Gods making a return and a conflict between "false gods" and "true gods" with clerics following abstracts sounds pretty damn cool (like in regular D&D they can)
Look at it this way, conflict is GOOD in a game setting. The more intense a conflict, the more likely it'll never be resolved.
Making Mystic Paladins and Blackguards would also be a good idea.
The Legion of Steel- Believe me, you have my support. If the Knights of Solamnia become the Legion of Steel then the worst element of Fifth Age would have survived and both of us would go home unhappy. I want my measure unrevised and unwieldly exact. The Legion is supposed to be the Krynnish Harpers while the Knights are supposed to Arthurian.
Players want both and if they do go the way you fear, it will brass off both 4th agers and 5th agers.
At present, they seem very incorporated into Linsha Majere's work and the two's conflict is intense...which is again, good. THOSE INSIPID DESCENDENTS OF THE DARK KNIGHTS!
The Knights of Nekara- As much as I'd want a return to the Old Ways, they're pretty much the massive army of mercenaries mixed with the slime of humanity they always will be. You won't see these going anywhere as we get to have clerics hate the "atheist badguys"
I'd hate them if not for the fact it basically is the original Dragonarmies of Krynn reborn if not Arikians.
This is my summary at least. I see also the environmental changes not being undone but leaving a time of chaos, darkness, and whatever emerges to be quite different from the "original"
The gods are probably taking a long-term view I guess. Wild magic also existed in the Age of Dreams, but waned as High Sorcery arose to bring order to the world's magic. The gods may figure that history will repeat itself once the Orders really get moving.
I doubt that groups like the Knights of Solamnia will welcome sorcerors. The Knights, as a rule, prefer godly magic and aren't likely to support wild magic now that the gods are back. The Legion of Steel however probably will continue to support sorcerors amongst their ranks, probably even more so than wizards, as they feel that sorcerors have fewer commitments pulling at their loyalty.
i doubt the knights will attract the sorcerers as well, but I was thinking about what Mr martin said about trying to be constructive, and I was suggesting marriage of 4th and 5th age ideas. as far as Dragonhelms notes about the appendix in Amber & Ashes, yes it was constructive, especailly when I read a similr thread about that specific tower right here on these boards about a few months ago. I will say that Ms. Weiss took a very different tract than the one presented on these boards (so please don't think I'm accusing Ms weiss of plagarism).
He mistakenly believed that he could circumvent a universal axiom, simply by trying to emulate the aspects of Good that he found contributed to Good's success.
What happened was inevitable and could not have been avoided, even if Takhisis hadn't betrayed everyone by stealing the world. "
I this this quote is what distinguishes me from a lot of other Dragonlance fans. I've had this problem with the Balance and other things within Dragonlance. It seems all too often I see everyone who sees things that they think *can't change*. People think that the Balance will always happen.. and I just don't understand it. The same with Evil turns upon itself, etc. I see these things more as "insights into the past". When Fizban says at the end of DoSD that Evil turns upon itself, I saw it more as him commenting what has all happened in the past. Not as a "IT WILL HAPPEN" For me, things like Evil will turn upon itself, the Balance always evens out, etc.. just takes away from the free forming of the world.
If the designers feel the same way as a lot of the fans.. I pretty much know whats going to happen in every situation. I know any evil group that comes to power will automatically crumble from "inside problems". So..yea I can read the books and see how it happens.. but I know ultimately it will happen. No evil organization will ever be unique, neat, etc.. they will always follow precedence. I know that no matter how many good things happen in the DL world, there will *have* to be a big, evil, insiduous thing happen so that "good" doesnt get to be "good" for very long. I know that whenever evil rears its ugly head, just shrug my shoulders and really not worry... good will win the day in the end. Yea I can read about how it happens.. but I'm already assured evil wont reign for long either. I especially know that whenever an earth shattering thing happens for either side, there will definately be a big pendelum swing back the other way.. All I have to do is wait for it... It almost kind of just gives me a bored feelings. I almost feel like I'm watching a movie that I already know the ending too.. just to see one or two actors. No surprises...
god how I hate that... I love reading about worlds where I have no clue exactly what will happen. Say a bad guy takes over a part of the world, maybe he'll be there for a long time and set up an evil organization who rules it for centuries... or maybe he'll be gone the next day.
I dunno maybe I'm making a big deal about nothing, but something just really bothered me when its said the Knights of Takhisis were going to automatically fail. I *hate* the Balance as a "for sure thing" and wish it would just be changed. It makes no sense that the evil goods would even try to take over the world or anything because they know its not possible. Why do good gods even try to make good lands? They know they will fall eventually. Also its a swinging effect.. I'd be scared as hell if I was a god of good and my followers started healing everyone . "Are you an idiot! Now theres going to be just as much evil done as what you did good!" The gods of light, like Paladine, preach Balance? Thats absurd. I can't believe a god who promotes evil.. says "eh.. there'll always be evil.. its Balance" instead of saying "I understand there has always been evil, but we try to cut it down as much as possible, all the while hoping we can stamp it out"
Again, maybe this isn't such a big deal to a lot of others, and I'm sorry if its not exactly ontopic. I just am sometimes amazed how much stuff is just a "given" in Dragonlance and sometimes lament that the world ultimately will never really ever change, because it can't, the Balance is what keeps everything the same and the "universal axioms" always come true.
For me, i like to view the balance as a long term correction. It swung in favor of good when Tak was tossed out around Huma's time, and took until the cataclysm to be reset. The reset shoved hard on the side of evil, and took till the chaos war to level out again. etc etc.
In fact, that was exactly what happened in the alternate future wherein Raistlin became a god. He (Evil) managed to win against everyone, gods and mortals, but destroyed the world in doing so.
So one really cannot sit back on one's laurels secure in the knowledge that Evil will always self-destruct, Balance or no Balance. Because Evil might very well drag down everything and everyone with it in it's slide into destruction.
It's also an open question how long and painful that self-destruction will be. How long did the great empire of the ogres last before they Fell? I doubt that to the generations of humans that suffered under their tyranny it felt okay because "someday" it was destined to crumble. People suffered and people died during Evil's long reign.
The Knights of Takhisis, in adopting honor as a virtue, were trying to emulate Good. In fact, in so doing many of them ultimately became Good (the ones that ran off to join the Legion of Steel). The flaw in Ariakan's dream was always Takhisis herself, and the fundamental nature of Evil, which by definition is not honorable.
Now in a new age, the Knights of Neraka face that same problem. Evil, in the form of Morganne simply assassinated the real leader of the Knights without regard for honor, which he didn't care about.
When I first started reading DoNA, I thought it had a great opening. "This is not the Age of Mortals, it is the Age of Dragons". I had visions of dragons organizing and asserting their power. Of Dragons without the lance, gathering up gold and jewels and draconic politics. Dragon-kings who ruled over the territory they seized.
Instead we got 5 dragon overlords who were invincible and grew to giant size overnight. Then they took 1/3 to 1/2 of the campaign setting out of production by terraforming wastelands devoid of human life. They overshadowed the areas outside the wastelands as well, so that facing the dragon overlords was the only campaign hook. The most frustrating part of that was that you could never hope to defeat them, so it was the even more limiting "placate the dragon overlords, and pick off a few of his minions without him noticing."
There was nothing wrong with the personalities of the Dragon Overlords. Malystryx the Destroyer, Khellendros the mourning lover, Sable the mad genius, Beryl the Cruel, and Gellidus the Brute. As characters they were fine, and as character concepts they were fine. However, they ruined themselves by trying to be excessively "cool". Instead of being powerful, they were ultra-powerful supreme! Instead of being evil, they were ultra-evil supreme! As such they became cheesy and one-dimensional characters, because they simply didn't interact with the rest of the campaign world. Even if they were like the dragon-kings of Dark Sun it would have been better, because at least the Dark Sun dragons actually care about ruling their subjects, and make it possible to live in their domains (if not pleasant).
So that's why so many people are cheering because of the loss of the big 5. That's why everybody hates the 5th Age. There are small virtues in the setting, but those 5 collossal mistakes make them hard to be noticed.
The best thing, bar far, to come out of the 5th Age was the Legion of Steel. They are the best thing because unlike the other changes I will talk about, they actually filled a role in the setting that wasn't there before. The role of the gritty and grim hero. A hero who goes to ground, supplies a resistance cell with equipment and training, spies on his enemies and puts a local tyrant's head on a stick. Of course, I like Sovereign Press' interpretation better than the 5th Age design team and fans. They wanted it to be the "replacement" Knights of Solamnia. But you know what... we like the Knights of Solamnia. But we would appreciate a place for our Rangers and Commandos of the dragonlance world.
The rest... well there isn't much to get really excited about. For example, I simply don't understand the attachment to sorcery and mysticism. It's just D&D clerics and wizards renamed. Sure they have minor game mechanic differences such as spontaneous casting and having magic that only affects living vs. non-living things. In all other respects though, such as the role they fill within parties, they are exactly the same. What they lacked however, was the distinct cultures that fit the central theme of the Dragonlance world, which was namely good, evil and the balance between the two. The Academy of High Sorcery was just another wizard's college that could have existed anywhere in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.
What do you want done with the sorcerers and mystics? Of course the wizards would prefer if everyone joined the conclave. That has been their modus operandi since day 1. What do you want to see? Would it be all better if sorcerers were allowed to practice sorcery and yet join the conclave? Otherwise everything is fine, because we have a compromise peace between the sorcerers and wizards now. The only thing is that interest hasn't been drummed up for sorcerers. If authors and game designers aren't being inspired by them, what are you going to do? What can be done if there is a character concept that could just as easily be filled with a wizard as a sorcerer?
Myself I plan on using mystics as false heathen prophets (seekers etc.) and for pure mechanical reasons of giving a few divine spells to non-religious figures. What I will be using sorcerers for is if I need a renegade cabal or two for various reasons. Mostly I'll use them for characters that have innate magical abilities (ie. demon or dragon descended PC's) and for the spellcasting power of magical creatures. That is because most of the time my PC's will want to play WoHS, and I need to keep those spellbooks coming. I also find the mystery and occult nature of the WoHS more interesting than Palin's Academy which reminded me of the everyday hum-drum of getting my worthless humanities degree. God I wish I had gone into the sciences.
Academic regets aside, I'll deal with the last major introduction to the Dragonlance 5th Age was the dragonspawn. There are many ways this could have been handled. They could have been Dragonlance's answer to Lyncanthropy (ie. Steve Millers Dark Thralls of Sable), Dragon "Knights" which were bonded to their Dragon Masters as elite agents. Instead what they were were replacement draconians. They were rank and file troops that blew up when they died. Like Jamie Chamber's Noble Draconians, they are another option but they do not add anything dramatic to the setting. Notice that the Dragon Vassals and Dark Thralls are in the Bestiary of Krynn, and will probably stick with the setting when the Dragonspawn fade away.
Other than that though well... the 5th Age had a lot of opportunities wasted. They created no new evil organizations, only created two new cultures (Northern Ergoth and Khur), and only a few monsters. If the 5th Age had created more stuff, and stuff that didn't directly compete or clash with the revived elements of the 4th Age, there would be more of it around.
However, the 5th age I think largely flopped before the War of Souls.
Even though we don't have actual sales figures to support this, I'd say you are wrong. DL novels have been going strong for years.
Game material may be another issue, but again, we don't have sales figures. What SP sells now may be no more than what SAGA sold, only that SAGA printed more copies (and with it being TSR at the time, that was possible).
There were many things that were changed, but it is really the Dragon Overlords which really inspire that intense dislike in the 5th Age setting.
I think it's more complex than that. There were a lot of elements introduced that many fans felt didn't convey the feel of Dragonlance. Placing all the "blame" on the dragon overlords is a bit of an oversimplification.
When I first started reading DoNA, I thought it had a great opening. "This is not the Age of Mortals, it is the Age of Dragons".
One of the things I liked about Dragonlance Adventures was what was considered the present era at that time - the Age of Dragons. The name evokes images of dragons in battle, of a time when dragons came from being children's tales to stark reality.
The most frustrating part of that was that you could never hope to defeat them, so it was the even more limiting "placate the dragon overlords, and pick off a few of his minions without him noticing."
Agreed. There was no way to win. Every victory was a hollow one.
There was nothing wrong with the personalities of the Dragon Overlords. Malystryx the Destroyer, Khellendros the mourning lover, Sable the mad genius, Beryl the Cruel, and Gellidus the Brute. As characters they were fine, and as character concepts they were fine.
Personally, I thought Malys was a bit two-dimensional. She was big, wanted to become a goddess, and destroyed things. There was no depth to her character. Khellendros was more to my liking, as he had purpose to what he did beyond becoming the ultimate force on Krynn.
However, they ruined themselves by trying to be excessively "cool". Instead of being powerful, they were ultra-powerful supreme! Instead of being evil, they were ultra-evil supreme! As such they became cheesy and one-dimensional characters, because they simply didn't interact with the rest of the campaign world.
I like depth to my villains. Being evil for evil's sake is dull. I want to see reasoning behind it, motive, depth of character. Darth Vader would have been a lot more boring had he just been a big, bad Sith Lord. He's far more interesting being a fallen Jedi, and the father of the hero, Luke Skywalker.
The best thing, bar far, to come out of the 5th Age was the Legion of Steel. They are the best thing because unlike the other changes I will talk about, they actually filled a role in the setting that wasn't there before. The role of the gritty and grim hero. A hero who goes to ground, supplies a resistance cell with equipment and training, spies on his enemies and puts a local tyrant's head on a stick. Of course, I like Sovereign Press' interpretation better than the 5th Age design team and fans. They wanted it to be the "replacement" Knights of Solamnia. But you know what... we like the Knights of Solamnia. But we would appreciate a place for our Rangers and Commandos of the dragonlance world.
This is partially why I prefer to not think of the Legion as knights. There's a grim and gritty determination, a resolve to do good first and to not get wrapped up in the rules.
Plus, the other big organizations all have gods sponsoring them. The Legion is the one big organization that doesn't. This adds to their charm.
The rest... well there isn't much to get really excited about. For example, I simply don't understand the attachment to sorcery and mysticism. It's just D&D clerics and wizards renamed. Sure they have minor game mechanic differences such as spontaneous casting and having magic that only affects living vs. non-living things. In all other respects though, such as the role they fill within parties, they are exactly the same.
Unfortunately, ambient magic does come across as "replacement magic". To the credit of the 5th age design team, they worked to give each type of magic its own unique feel. Sorcery affected non-living things and was highly elemental in nature. Mysticism was the magic of life and spirits.
The attraction to ambient magic for me is the conflict of ambient and focused magic in the modern era. You don't have to worship the gods in order to have magical power. Now mortals can stand on their own might. This adds a whole new dynamic to clerics and wizards, who have to re-examine how they approach things with ambient magic around.
I also find the mystery and occult nature of the WoHS more interesting than Palin's Academy which reminded me of the everyday hum-drum of getting my worthless humanities degree. God I wish I had gone into the sciences.
Palin's Academy reminds me a lot of the Jedi Academy. ;)
Academic regets aside, I'll deal with the last major introduction to the Dragonlance 5th Age was the dragonspawn. There are many ways this could have been handled. They could have been Dragonlance's answer to Lyncanthropy (ie. Steve Millers Dark Thralls of Sable), Dragon "Knights" which were bonded to their Dragon Masters as elite agents. Instead what they were were replacement draconians.
Unfortunately, this is one of those elements of the 5th age that didn't see its full potential. I never really cared for spawn for the very same reason - that they are replacement draconians.
Andre' made me look at dragonspawn in a new light, and one that I wish was explored more. The idea is that they're more of a corruption of humanity. There's a sense of tragedy involved, and a different feel for dragonspawn.
I personally thought Noble Draconians were redundant. We already had regular draconians, and now dragonspawn. I'm not exactly sure why females who are made into dragonspawn couldnt mate with males who were made into dragonspawn, but who knows. Maybe they just wanted the only way to create more to only be by other dragons. I think it would have been nice that when the dragons who made them died, they would have had their free-will back and started searching out and settling down with others of their kind. Eventually have them have children.. and they would be the other 5 "draconians". Instead.. we are given noble draconians, which I still don't like. It was hard enough for me to accept female draconians because of the retcon of it. But now, they say that good draconians were made from evil eggs using evil demons.. I dunno I just find it a funky premise. As I said before, if they would have given the free will back to the dragonspawn and let them procreate, there wouldnt have been any need for noble draconians. We would have had all 10 varieties of draconians. Oh well.. not much I can do about it. Just irks me.
I think it would have been nice that when the dragons who made them died, they would have had their free-will back and started searching out and settling down with others of their kind.
The BoK says this is possible.
But now, they say that good draconians were made from evil eggs using evil demons.. I dunno I just find it a funky premise.
Erm, that's not how they're made. They're made just like the original draconians were, in a magical creation ritual that did not involve demons or devils or abishai or what-have-you.
Ahh well I forgot they had changed that. None of the demon thing happening. Its still always been described as "corrupting" of the egg. I dunno, no matter the process, I just find it amazing that the same process that turned the good dragon eggs evil, would turn evil eggs good. It seems everyone else seems to like them.. I just find them redundant. Dragonspawn had the potential to be "the other 5 draconians" if more time and story would have been put into fleshing out individual ones.
True enough, though novel-wise Noble dracs have yet to make an appearance, so unlike the spawn they are relegated to the "gaming" world.
There was a short story in a Dragon magazine a long time ago that showed one that retained his memories and outlook on life. I've always thought it was a neat story.
Hmm, do you remember what issue it was?
I'm not exactly sure why females who are made into dragonspawn couldnt mate with males who were made into dragonspawn, but who knows.
This is a retcon by SP. As is removing the ability for non-Dragon Overlords to create spawn.
All it does is it allows spawn to become extinct in a hurry.
See my post above about a marriage between the KoS and Sorcerers. Unlikely to happen, but an interesting concept IMHO.
Dragon magazanine ran a years worth of Dragonlance stories years ago that included the opne about the dragonspawn reataining its memories. I don't know the issue # but about ten of the stories are included in the Dragon 25th anniversary cd that includes Dragon 1-250. so I would guess that story is somewhere in the 240 range of Dragon
There was a short story in a Dragon magazine a long time ago that showed one that retained his memories and outlook on life. I've always thought it was a neat story.
There was a short story in Dragon about spawn?
Funny how so much of the Fifth Age was about chasing after things from the past that people wanted.
Sorcery, and Palin's Academy, was an attempt to replace the lost High Sorcery formerly provided by the gods and taught by the Orders.
Mysticism was sought as a replacement for the lost clerical magic.
The Dragonspawn were created by Dragon Overlords with overblown egos trying to emulate the Queen of Darkness.
It's seems as if the Fifth Age was really the Age of Substitution, in which much activity went to into finding replacements for lost pieces of the past.
I dont mind ambient magic so much, I think it provides a wealth of possibilities. How much different would the world have been if mysticism and sorcery were always present. Seems a lot of conflicts happen because of how close the gods do interect with the world. I think you would have seen a lot more people buck the gods and do what *they* think is good. I kind of like how all the gods have to woo back their worshippers.. it actually makes them care about them, or at least I think so. If you want people to use High Sorcery, you better give them a reason to. You want them to use clerical magic and not mysticism.. better try to do things for your worshippers. I like the conflict that will start from the gods trying to make mortals think that their magic is better and should be used.
I dont think you could say that the Dragon Overlords were just trying to be like the Queen of Darkness by wanting to rule the world. That means everyone who wants to rule the world is trying to be like her? Sargonas would rule the world if he could.. is he just a rehash of Takhisis? Just because Takhisis is the major villain who is always trying to rule the world, it doesnt make everyone else just being imitations.
Palin's academy I never saw as a rehash of the WoHS. They arent even close in my book because you never had the strict disciplined rules of the WoHS. Palin even said he pretty much wasnt a teacher, each person there pretty much was learning together. Right after wizardry left the world and sorcery was discovered, it makes sense that people would gather together and try to learn together. Is every instiution that uses magic going to be a rehash of the WoHS? I somehow doubt it. I think of the academt as a place where everyone was just trying to formulate the basics of sorcery, and to teach people with this innate ability how to control it. Not nearly as formal as the WoHS, more like an open area of discussion.
As I said before, I'm biased towards the dragonspawn anyways. I was hoping they would become a fullfledged race that would eventually maybe live along with the regular draconians. I personally think this would be a neat thing. I've been waiting for a non-mammal race in a setting that doesnt seem so... alien. The draconians have started to become "normal" in Dragonlance and I love it. Too many times I see people who try to put in "lizard people" and it just seems weird. I just would love to see the Dragonspawn become the 6-10 draconians with freedom of choice and will.
As I said, I wonder how many of us just discount the things that 5th age brought. Trust me I still dont like the age whatsoever.. or at least the Dragon Overlord part. I like some of the things that have come out of it.. but as a whole I think it was just a flop. Thats why I like the return of the gods and the reestablishing of the stuff from before the 5th age. I get my old dragonlance back that I liked, while trying to keep the few things I liked from 5th age. Its working out pretty well for me.
The Spawn always seemed like cheap imitation Draconians to me. An attempt by the Dragon Overlords to get something equivalent to what Takhisis had
Only by those who didn't bother to explore them.
Funny how so much of the Fifth Age was about chasing after things from the past that people wanted.
Umm, no.
Sorcery, and Palin's Academy, was an attempt to replace the lost High Sorcery formerly provided by the gods and taught by the Orders.
In case you didn't notice, even the 5th Age design team saw the wisdom in making sure there was magic around to use after the removal of High Sorcery and clerical magic by W&H.
I've always maintained that sorcerery is the magics that beings such as dragons had innately. Mysticism would fit in here easily enough as well.
But, SP had to go with something that made even less sense and still doesn't explain dragons and other magical creatures.
The Dragonspawn were created by Dragon Overlords with overblown egos trying to emulate the Queen of Darkness.
And now Jamie has gotten noble draconians canon. Where's your complaints about emulation with them?
It's seems as if the Fifth Age was really the Age of Substitution, in which much activity went to into finding replacements for lost pieces of the past.
Oh please. What did affilicted kender replace? the Sylvan Shield? Titans?
For a world that was as dead as DL, people have alot of complaints about what was added to it.
And the 5th Age team added more to the world than any other group has combined, including the current group at SP.
That it shows how plain and utterly devoid pre-DoSF DL actually was.
Even worse that people apparently prefer it that way.
I was so excited right after War of Souls (little did I know that all that had been destroyed would stay destroyed). So much potential...that has just been squandered in this mad dash to re-institute pre-Chaos War Dragonlance. Sure there are two new magics and a new "knightly" order...but they are similar to their "true" 5th Age counterparts in name only.
But...I did want to comment on this:
I've always maintained that sorcerery is the magics that beings such as dragons had innately. Mysticism would fit in here easily enough as well.
But, SP had to go with something that made even less sense and still doesn't explain dragons and other magical creatures.
I'm fairly certain that this is exactly the route Sovereign Press has gone. All dragons are sorcerer/mystics...as are all of the other creatures I like to call "children of Krynn" (where as the mortal races are "children of the Stars"). Anyway...so this fear can at least be put to rest.
See I dont want everything to go away that was implemented in the 5th age. My problem was too many drastic changes happened at the beginning of the 5th age. They almost got rid of everything that made Dragonlance unique. Granted.. they added other unique things, but that wasnt the world that I had liked. I like the mixing of the two now. I was severely dissapointed when I read Lake of Death though. They dont need to go in and throw away everything from 5th age. I need the gods, wizardry, clerical magic, the WoHS, etc. But the addition of Legion of Steel, Ogre Titans, dragonspawn, afflicted kender, etc never bothered me.
I guess in the end the 5th age bothered me because of what they took away, more than what they added. I mixing of the two I can live with.
as far as 5th age magic being a replacement for 4th age magic, it was Weiss and Hickman that planted the seed at the end of DoSF when Fizban said there was still magic in the world. Silvanthalas defended it nuch better than I could hope too,so I'll just stop here. I will give True Blue credit for trying to see the 5th age fans point of view
Is it all Hasbro/WoTC or is it some them and some Sovereign Press?
I'm fairly certain that Soverign Press might have a little bit of...well...input maybe? But I doubt it goes any further than that, but I could be wrong...I'm not really sure who decides any of it. I am interested in seeing how the 5th Age modules will be handled in the novel realm. If it does in fact turn out that Frost bites it...that is a hefty plot point that we'll never see written about. Now, for those gamers out there...so what? They won't care because they've got the story...but for the novel readers...they'll just have to be left to wonder.
Don't get me wrong...I never expected the Overlords to stick around for ever. I'm just disgusted at their under usage while they were around and at they way they're going to be tossed aside.
Malys, Skie, and Beryl...those demises were pretty well done (Beryl's most of all...Malys a bit less...Skie's was disappointing)...but at least it happened in a major story.
Sable, well, I was hoping she was going to bite it in the Dhamon Saga...but instead they did it in a stand alone...with a fight that is more or less impersonal and happens off screen (we see it from Ragh's point of view...and therefore really see nothing).
Frost's death won't even be written about.
My problem was too many drastic changes happened at the beginning of the 5th age.
The problem is, though, that Dragons of Summer Flame (intentionally or not) effectively ended Dragonlance as we know it. If Dragonlance were to continue, it would only be because it was different. The world and people were same...but they had nothing to work with. No gods, no magic...they had to go somewhere.
For the most part, the 5th Age team only created...the destroyed nothing...except the whole Dairly Plains. heh heh
I guess in the end the 5th age bothered me because of what they took away, more than what they added.
What do you mean? The 5th Age took away nothing...all it did was add to the setting.
But lately we are starting to see a pretty one sided mix, ans I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, because thus far whether it be WOTC or Sov. Press that is dictating things, the track record shows that whatever th 5th age design team came up with is being slowly eliminated.
Well...I don't know. Although I was a little disappointed with the way some of the things were handled (sorcery/mysticism mechanics, Legion of Steel, and lack of Dragon Overlord and Dragonlord stats) game wise...Sovereign Press has really been pretty 5th Age friendly.
I sometimes forget exactly what was happening company-wise with Dragonlance. I realize that DoSF was supposed to be a cut off point, it just kind of sucked that in order to end it, they decided to do it by cutting out a lot of the good stuff I liked. When they started making 5th age/SAGA stuff, when I would read it I would just sigh because it didnt even sound like Dragonlance anymore. Yea it was all the same people, but none of the same stuff in it. Others may disagree, its just the way I see it.
See I was happy with the end of the War of the Souls pertaining to the Overlords. I was very glad there were 2 left. I didnt like there being 5, it seemed too many. I also didnt like the fact that each one was a different color, it just seemed way too contrived. And now Sable is gone.. and everyone knows that Frost will happen too. Its a no-brainer. Which is just sad. I will give the Overlords this much though, they were never more than 2 dimensional. "I want to rule everything, *roar*"... kind of sad. Too many things just havent seen the effort given to them to become great things. I think the Ogre Titans is the most underappreciated thing. I would like to see more about afflicted kender than "Um they are kender, but serious..". I also would like to see more on the Brutes. We are seeing them trying to stake out a nation, but I dont want a race that is just bent on conquering the world. I already know the minotaurs. As I've stated before, I'd love to see the dragonspawn become a race onto their own. These things just need so much detail given to them then a few lines in a book somewhere.
I dunno, as I've said plenty before I'm just gald to see a lot of the things I liked back.
I will give the Overlords this much though, they were never more than 2 dimensional.
Not all of them. Khellendros was certainly not this way...nor was Onysablet. Berylinthranox had potential as a bit of a "mad" ruler (but this was established in the very first 5th Age product ever...the promotional comic).
Malystryx was really no more than a dragon version of Ariakas...and Gellidus...well...he was never really explored much.
The Dragonlords are much more fleshed out personality wise...but they're never written about.
That's what I mean by so much potential squandered.
Palin and the wizards were all longing for the old magic, and plenty of his time was devoted to pumping up primal sorcery, which in both the novels and the SAGA game was vastly inferior to High Sorcery, to the point where it could be a true substitute. His Academy of Sorcery couldn't emulate the Orders of High Sorcery because he himself didn't know enough about primal sorcery to operate that way. There was no body of lore comparable to what there was for High Sorcery so traditional mentorship wasn't possible. But in the novels a lot of Palin's thinking worked around making primal sorcery into an adequate replacement for High Sorcery.
Mysticism was also lame. We had Goldmoon, who quite frankly still wanted to be a cleric (and was written that way) again teaching a substitute for clerical magic. The Knights of the Skull even used it to fake their clerical powers and Takhisis's Vision.
And everyone wanted to reempower magic to the point where it matched the old stuff because otherwise they had no chance of getting rid of the Overlords.
The Spawn, I'm sorry, not as original as some would like them to be. Like I said, they're rip-off draconian mutants.
The Silvanesti Shield? Let's just make the Silvanesti isolationists in indisputable fact as well as ideologically.
Afflicted Kender? Let's make kender more "edgey", less cute. Plus, now we have yet another quest to regain the past, but seeking a cure for the poor afflicted little buggers.
The Dragon Overlords? One-half draconic deities, one-half dragon kings of Athas.
Ogre Titans? Heck, the whole point to them is to give ogres (a bit of a neglected evil) a throwback to their ancient glory days.
The whole mess was like somebody's attempt to take advantage of an existing brand name, redesign the game system and elements while still taking advantage of the backplot, all to create a more "edgey" feel. Also to make it work better in a game system that didn't use dice.
But from a story perspective I personally (these are just my personal feelings here) felt that the Fifth Age was nothing but one long quest to regain the glories of past while overcoming an evil that wasn't particularly creative.
Obviously I'm not alone in that because, as noted by many here, having exited SAGA to return to d20 somebody in front a keyboard made a business decision to kill what had been the Fifth Age storyline and move back towards classic DL.
Sometimes I wonder if thats the attitude that gets us anti-5th age fans in trouble. We look at everything in the 5th age as a substitution, instead of trying to look at the stuff as their own unique thing. We don't give it the benefit of the doubt, we just assume its a copy-cat idea and discount it.
I would say there's a lot of truth to that.
I dont think you could say that the Dragon Overlords were just trying to be like the Queen of Darkness by wanting to rule the world. That means everyone who wants to rule the world is trying to be like her? Sargonas would rule the world if he could.. is he just a rehash of Takhisis? Just because Takhisis is the major villain who is always trying to rule the world, it doesnt make everyone else just being imitations.
Yeah, but then there's Malys. She was trying to become a god in the DoaNA trilogy. The way she phrased it, she was trying to "become Takhisis". The other dragons even called her the Dark Queen, or some such, at the end.
I think that defeated the purpose of having a new villain, in that it just went back to Takhisis. I never did understand why Malys would want to become Takhisis anyway. I would figure that she'd want to become a god in her own right.
As I said before, I'm biased towards the dragonspawn anyways. I was hoping they would become a fullfledged race that would eventually maybe live along with the regular draconians.
Herein lies the problem. If the dragonspawn became a race of their own, their path would be similar to that of the draconians. Then what would make each race special? How would they forge their own identity, and not come across as carbon copies of each other?
In case you didn't notice, even the 5th Age design team saw the wisdom in making sure there was magic around to use after the removal of High Sorcery and clerical magic by W&H.
Steve Miller has said that he would have gone into the 5th age without new magic.
And the 5th Age team added more to the world than any other group has combined, including the current group at SP.
I will give them credit for adding a lot to the world, although I'm not sure the comparison to Sov. Press is a fair one since Sov. Press has only been at it a year. Give it time, and we'll see.
Maybe it says something, too, about the state of DL when the only elements that can be removed are the ones that the 5th Age team added.
Not entirely true. Paladine and Takhisis were removed.
That it shows how plain and utterly devoid pre-DoSF DL actually was.
Even worse that people apparently prefer it that way.
It isn't about the quantity of material, it's about the flavor and feel. That isn't to say that new additions were bad. In fact, they fleshed out the setting considerably. Some things, though, just didn't have that DL feel to them.
I think that's why I really like the current era. It's got the DL feel to it, yet all the expansions that have taken place since. Best of both worlds.
I'll start with this, then reply to a few others. Lively discussion!
Every time DL has changed, from the first mods to 2nd edition, 2nd to Saga, Saga back to 3e, fifth age to wos, the fandom has been pared down, as more and more people leave because their ideal of DL has been left behind. Certainly the amount of folks leaving has lessened over the years, but it's still there.
There is a core, though. a group of fans who have embraced every change and every cataclysm and tried to find something to love about it, and keep their joy in the setting alive. And now we're being punished for it.
But Brim is right. We can't fight this. Heck, we're not even on the battlefield.
Or is that really true? Should we sit down? I don't think the game is over yet, my friends. Dragonlance as an ideal hasn't died within me yet, and i'm willing to bet the flame still glows in all of you too. I still dream of the day that i can join the list of fans who jumped to the state of author and designer, and i still love the core of the setting.
So what can we do, then? We need to make sure that those elements that we can save are spread as much as we can. Consider an example. In the dovm appendix, MLM insinuated that Cyan made a deal with Chemosh and became a dracolich. Even though most official works ignore that, cyan as dracolich is a meme that grabbed hold of a large chunk of fandom and just won't let go. Similarly, fans have begged and pleaded for Taladas for a very long time, leading to a trilogy and eventual sourcebook.
The solution, my friends, is to make sure that people remember what was cool about these elements in the first place. To remind people why the titans are the cutting edge of awesome villany, why mysticism and sorcery arent just mislabled divine/arcane stuff, why thinkers and afflicted give new dimension to otherwise comical characters.
The fifth age isnt dead, folks. It really isnt. Only the big visible chunks are, and as evinced by the other thread, there really wasnt any other way to advance the story. We've still got a lot of forgotten bits to harvest. All we have to do is make sure it isnt forgotten.
Let's take inventory of what is still here. Mystics, Sorcs, Thinkers, the Herald, Chaos infused magical places, The assassins and monks of Claran Elian, the grey, Titans capturing elves, The Khur, Sikket Hul and the good goblins, Solanthus as the capital of solamnia, All of the Minor Dragonlords (not counting thunder), Duntollik, Schallsea and the citadel, Northern Ergoth, Belladonna and the Afflicted in Hylo, the LoS, and Spawn. Of course, there is more i'm forgetting, i'm sure.
What isn't here anymore? Overlords, the Academy, Souls and such for the Titans, Soth, and Dhamon. More, but this is pretty big unto itself.
What has been introduced? Chemoshian vamps, the new istar tower, gods returning, minotaur invasions, the brute invasions, the Lake of Death and that cool community under it, and a rebuilt WoHS.
I think that our cries are valid, but a bit premature. I think we can still save the fifth age, and fuse it with the core of Dragonlance permanently. We just need to make the folks in charge aware of what we want to see. This is our setting, my friends. Let Margaret know what you want to see in it. Let Jamie know how you think it can proceed. Tell us about your campaigns where you fuse these elements. Write your fanfictions about the Spawn Mystic who discovers his true calling is to be a cleric of Chislev, cleansing Sable's curse in her swamp.
We can fight, folks. All hope isn't lost yet. Remember, this is dragonlance, the setting where the little people win the big battles =)
Besides, it's not a battle anyway. We don't know where these new changes are going yet, so it's too early to see where the compass will point. But we can make sure that the past will be honored in the future.
-tal, the fanboy.
I think that's why I really like the current era. It's got the DL feel to it, yet all the expansions that have taken place since. Best of both worlds.
wait, what?
sorry trampas, i can't parse that statement.
Steve Miller has said that he would have gone into the 5th age without new magic.
I believe Steve said that in the context of "Since the line was doomed anyway, maybe we should have gone all-out radical with it."
Matthew L. Martin
If WotC/Hasbro is going to turn Dragonlance back into pre-Chaos War Dragonlance, whatever, I can't stop them.
Okay, what does this mean, "turning Dragonlance back into pre-Chaos War Dragonlance"? I just don't see it. Just because the gods are back? Just because the WoHS are back? Just because the overlords and spawn are dying out?
What is happening is no surprise, folks. The gods are back? Yep, since War of Souls, we knew it would happen, and that this was part of the healing of the fan rift. The WoHS are back? Yep, they're a staple of the setting, and with the gods of magic back, so are they.
The overlords and spawn are dying out? You betcha. For starters, the gods wouldn't stand for them tearing up their world. That's their job. ;) Secondly, they were designed for one purpose - to be destroyed. It was inevitable, yet when it happens, people don't like how it happened.
So here we are in this marvelous modern era, where we have 4 types of magic, one god has died, and another god is now a mortal. We have all the fleshing out of the setting from the SAGA days, plus new things are being fleshed out as well, such as the followers of Majere. Add to this new villains, new heroes who aren't the Heroes of the Lance, and the continued change and shaping of the setting.
After all of this, you guys still claim that we're "going back to the 4th age"?
(Tobin - Please note that I wasn't targeting you with this. I was just trying to illustrate a point.)
This is not the 4th age, or more specifically, the Time of Dragons. This is not a time when Paladine and Takhisis constantly warred with each other, and everyone got drug along for the ride.
This is not the latter 4th age, nor is it the early 5th age. But no matter what has been added or subtracted to the setting, it's all still Dragonlance.
Is it all Hasbro/WoTC or is it some them and some Sovereign Press? I'm not exactly sure what the cut-off is there. I know all novels are under WoTC, but the gaming material is made by Sovereign Press. Do the people at SP get a choice to where they would like to see the world go.. or is it mainly up to WoTC?
I don't know how much control Sov. Press has, but WotC has the final say. Everything SP does is reviewed by WotC, for example.
The problem is, though, that Dragons of Summer Flame (intentionally or not) effectively ended Dragonlance as we know it. If Dragonlance were to continue, it would only be because it was different. The world and people were same...but they had nothing to work with. No gods, no magic...they had to go somewhere.
Agreed. Really, the 5th age design team did wonders, all things considered. I just think they were handicapped by the loss of the gods and the WoHS. In a way, it's a no-win situation.
Mysticism was also lame. We had Goldmoon, who quite frankly still wanted to be a cleric (and was written that way) again teaching a substitute for clerical magic.
I think the one lame thing in all this was that it was Goldmoon who brough divine magic back to the world....again. Why not a new character, or an underused one from previous times? Imagine if it had been Jasper.
I'll catch up here in a bit on the rest of the posts.
I know this is a controversial topic, guys, but I think it's overall being handled well.
Herein lies the problem. If the dragonspawn became a race of their own, their path would be similar to that of the draconians. Then what would make each race special? How would they forge their own identity, and not come across as carbon copies of each other?
How would you know unless you bother to explore them? I have. I've told stories that you can't tell with draconians.
Draconians have turned into something they weren't originally. But unless you're willing to do something with them, you can't know what they'll be.
Steve Miller has said that he would have gone into the 5th age without new magic.
Well, Steve has been known to be disagreeable. Steve, btw, was also the one who came up with Sable. Too bad he didn't get to do what he wanted with her either.
I will give them credit for adding a lot to the world, although I'm not sure the comparison to Sov. Press is a fair one since Sov. Press has only been at it a year. Give it time, and we'll see.
It's been since the beginning of WoS, Trampas. I'd be shocked if Margaret has less say in what's going on than I give her credit for.
Not entirely true. Paladine and Takhisis were removed.
Two gods do not a pantheon make. Move Mishakal and Sargonnas up a rung on the ladder, and you can have the same plots all over again.
It isn't about the quantity of material, it's about the flavor and feel. That isn't to say that new additions were bad. In fact, they fleshed out the setting considerably.
Then why are they being removed?
I think that's why I really like the current era. It's got the DL feel to it, yet all the expansions that have taken place since. Best of both worlds.
Yes, a feeling of stagnation and decay. That's what old Dragonlance brought to the table after nothing substantially new in the 10 years between Legends and DoSF.
The mumblings of minotaurs invading and the elves reuniting are only now coming to play, but are old concepts.
It's really pretty simple. I don't hate DL, I don't hate the authors and designers. I've not met any of them, but I'm sure they're nice people. A&A and Lake of Death were a couple of very enjoyable books among many these last few years.
But I've spent alot of years on DL, and on the 5th Age in particular, because that's when I "came into my own" with DL. I enjoy it, I've always wanted to contribute to it. And in ways I have, such as making spawn more than the "carbon copies" many people mistake them to be.
So, I'm not giving this up without a fight, because I think this is the wrong direction for DL to take. The last thing DL should be doing right now is removing things without any idea of when other things are going to be added.
And with SP's current schedule, it is all upon the books to do the adding, if any.
You know what? I don't care if this is the latter 4th Age, the True 5th Age, or the 3.83^3 Age. All I know is, it's not what I want from DL.
And I'm kind of tired of the implication that, as elements I _do_ like are removed or downplayed in favor of ones I don't care for, that I should shut down my heart and mind and simply embrace it as part of "reunifying the fanbase" or "moving the setting forward". I understand that a lot of people who like the new age want others to like it as well, but I sometimes feel like I'm being told "You'll take the new era and LIKE it!". (Then again, there may have been some of that with the Classic Fifth Age as well. :-) )
The fanbase and the setting as setting have not done enough to inspire that kind of loyalty--heck, there are times when the fanbase has helped drive me _away_ from Dragonlance.
Dragonlance is not an end in itself for me--it is a means to an end, that of enjoyable and worthwhile stories, games, and other imaginative work. The setting as it stands is serving those ends less and less; therefore, I have less
and less interest in the setting.
I understand that other people seek different things from DL than I do; so long as they're evaluating it fairly and accurately, that's fine. But I don't think that we need to hold onto the setting, or be shackled to it, if we find it no longer holds our interest.
Maybe I'm overly pessimistic about the current direction of DL; that's a distinct possibility. But even as it stands right now, I'd rather split off in different directions than simply follow along 'for the good of the setting'.
Matthew L. Martin
Secondly, they were designed for one purpose - to be destroyed.
I'm sorry, are we talking about spawn or draconians here? I honestly couldn't tell the different there.
Now, yes, I'm dripping with sarcasm, but it perfectly illustrates my point on the fact that you are so far off base with your descriptions of spawn it's not even funny.
Draconians were cannon fodder. But they were allowed to become something more.
Spawn are somewhat cannon fodder, and you'd rather deny the chance for them to become more based on dislike and a poor assumption of them.
I believe Steve said that in the context of "Since the line was doomed anyway, maybe we should have gone all-out radical with it."
I could be wrong, but I thought he had said that he would have rather go with no magic, but that the powers-that-be (or someone) had dictated that there would be magic.
*shrugs*
The solution, my friends, is to make sure that people remember what was cool about these elements in the first place. To remind people why the titans are the cutting edge of awesome villany, why mysticism and sorcery arent just mislabled divine/arcane stuff, why thinkers and afflicted give new dimension to otherwise comical characters.
The fifth age isnt dead, folks. It really isnt. Only the big visible chunks are, and as evinced by the other thread, there really wasnt any other way to advance the story. We've still got a lot of forgotten bits to harvest. All we have to do is make sure it isnt forgotten.
Excellent points, Tal. Agreed.
What isn't here anymore? Overlords, the Academy, Souls and such for the Titans, Soth, and Dhamon. More, but this is pretty big unto itself.
Forgot to mention earlier that Soth and the remaining companions are also 4th age elements that have been taking away.
I think that our cries are valid, but a bit premature. I think we can still save the fifth age, and fuse it with the core of Dragonlance permanently. We just need to make the folks in charge aware of what we want to see. This is our setting, my friends. Let Margaret know what you want to see in it. Let Jamie know how you think it can proceed. Tell us about your campaigns where you fuse these elements. Write your fanfictions about the Spawn Mystic who discovers his true calling is to be a cleric of Chislev, cleansing Sable's curse in her swamp.
We can fight, folks. All hope isn't lost yet. Remember, this is dragonlance, the setting where the little people win the big battles =)
Besides, it's not a battle anyway. We don't know where these new changes are going yet, so it's too early to see where the compass will point. But we can make sure that the past will be honored in the future.
Excellent points, Tal. That's the way to go.
Remember too that the Nexus is here as a resource. If you want to post any fan gaming articles, I'd be happy to set you guys up.
How would you know unless you bother to explore them? I have. I've told stories that you can't tell with draconians.
That could be. I just think it would land up being redundant, having not one, but two stories of dragonmen who were once the pawns of some greater power who are seeking to establish a race of their own. Maybe you could tackle it in different ways, but the basic elements still remain.
Maybe I'm missing something?
So, I'm not giving this up without a fight, because I think this is the wrong direction for DL to take. The last thing DL should be doing right now is removing things without any idea of when other things are going to be added.
And with SP's current schedule, it is all upon the books to do the adding, if any.
Without any idea of when other things are going to be added?
These books and storylines are plotted out months, if not years, in advance. I think they know full well where things are headed. We're the ones who don't, which is where frustration can set in.
I'm sorry, are we talking about spawn or draconians here? I honestly couldn't tell the different there.
Sorry, I was referring to the overlords only.
Now, yes, I'm dripping with sarcasm, but it perfectly illustrates my point on the fact that you are so far off base with your descriptions of spawn it's not even funny.
Draconians were cannon fodder. But they were allowed to become something more.
Spawn are somewhat cannon fodder, and you'd rather deny the chance for them to become more based on dislike and a poor assumption of them.
Spawn, as presented in the DoaNA trilogy are canon fodder as well. Personally, I prefer Andre's outlook on them, where they're more of a corruption of the soul. THAT to me is what a dragonspawn should be. This doesn't require a new race, much like having vampires or werewolves don't require a new race.
I'd be perfectly happy letting spawn survive if presented thusly.
Apologies for the uber-long reply. Every time I try to send one off, everyone else raises a great point.
Maybe I'm missing something?
Maybe. Draconians started out but nothing more than cannon fodder, and, by all accounts, were retcons into existance by W&P. And for the best.
Personally, I prefer Andre's outlook on them, where they're more of a corruption of the soul.
Well, how do you think I too have presented them, for the most part?
Most people haven't seen this potential though, and I'm afraid they never will. I used to have alot of discussions with Andre over spawn, and I wish I could've contributed in some way to what was in the Bestiary, but he obviously did well enough with out me.
Either way, maybe it's time I get my spawn stories online to give people a chance to see for themselves what can be done with them in a story format. I admit, gaming is something else, and something a little beyond me.
I think what I would like to see is the draconians as a race, and then maybe the occasional dragonspawn here and there as an agent of a dragon. Not a race in their own right, but more of a corruption. Rather than there being several servants for a dragon, I'd like to see a character you can really get attached to, then have tragedy strike. Then, they're a shadow of their former selves, with only partial memories of their former life, haunting them.
I think the one lame thing in all this was that it was Goldmoon who brough divine magic back to the world....again. Why not a new character, or an underused one from previous times? Imagine if it had been Jasper.
Jasper can be summed up in one word: sidekick
He was so depressingly lacking in depth it wasn't even funny. Then again, I doubt that the world would have been flocking to rather a self-effacing dwarf the way they did to Goldmoon. The transparent attempt to channel Flint by making Jasper a relative was even more silly.
All of this said and done, as the world is not reverting to what it was. But there are some elements of Krynn that are too crucial to not have back.
The Wizards of High Sorcery have always been unique in the D&D campaign settings. Be honest, independent spellcasters who can do what they want without some organization are the norm in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. Doing the same thing in Dragonlance is nothing but making it more generic.
The absence of the gods was also pointless. If you want a campaign setting that explores what mortals do when they have their fate in their own hands then Dark Sun was waiting for all would-be atheists. The unique relationship of gods and mortals on Krynn, so much more intimate and coherent than other settings, was too key to the setting.
The Dragon Overlords were an attempt to introduce a supremely powerful but non-divine big bad. But that also existed in Dark Sun, and combined with the deconstruction of magic the Overlords became untouchable evils that ultimately paralyzed any forward momentum in the setting.
This is not to say that some great adventure hooks have not been added. The Knights of Solamnia have renewed their sense of purpose, but have also lost most of their old holdings and have much to do to get them back. Palanthus is no longer the center of the world, having been diminished in stature as an occupied city, and no longer hosting the Tower of High Sorcery or the ageless Astinus. The fall of the elven realms opens up countless options for elves to become more active in the world. The Knights of Neraka may not be as honorable as before, but they are still a mighty military power, who presently have many opportunities open to them. The Legion of Steel has yet to burst openly into the stories, but having been assigned an impressive number of PrC's they offer a great option for players. And minotaurs invading Ansalon changes them from being funny sidekicks to the serious threat they were always supposed to be.
So both storylines are moving forward in all honesty. We've just ditched all the baggage that was holding things back.
I'm only saying that these changes and new items from the 5th Age shouldn't be shoved in a closet or under the rug like the embarassed sibling. Instead they should be embraced at having reinvigorated the DL setting giving new plots and storylines. Because of Mysticism and Sorcery the gods are forced to compete for the love and faith of the people, instead of expecting it. I loved DL before the 5th Age, and I love it even more because of it. A blending is possible without a return to stagnicity.
It's been stated that the affliction of the kender is more like a curse as it lessens from one generation to the next, therefore Afflicted Kender will be able to "disappear" soon as well.
Well, this is something I've suspected would happen from the start. It's just a matter of a) how quickly we get through a couple of generations in the timeline now, b) if the process is "sped up" or not.
Even Don Perrin wrote an article in one of the Bertram's Guides that mentioned the possiblity that there were affilicted kender post-Cataclysm, which is also something I've long thought and supported.
I've also always assumed that, upon the death of an Overlord, that Overlord's land would start to revert back to a degree as well. Again, this now depends on how fast SP wants the process to go.
I'm only saying that these changes and new items from the 5th Age shouldn't be shoved in a closet or under the rug like the embarassed sibling. Instead they should be embraced at having reinvigorated the DL setting giving new plots and storylines.
Hmm. Maybe I could've summed up all of my posts so far on this by saying the above.
For the life of me I still can't see how you would be able to make draconians with evil eggs. I really really doubt that the dragons of the dragonarmy would just willing give away their eggs. They arent exactly very caring, but they all have that maternal/fraternal instinct. But.. I guess it could happen
. And what really doesnt make sense is that they said originally female draconians werent made, so how in the world would female noble draconians been made? So how in the world do the noble draconians procreate? I know they said there were only a few left, does that mean their all male? I would assume so. I'm assuming they would have been made the exact same way as the regular draconians.. no females. So that means they would die off after awhile.This is why I liked the idea of dragonspawn being made a different way. I liked the fact that the dragons who made them also are dying.. meaning no one just "makes more". This means they would procreate with themselves, not by just making more. I dont even see noble draconians as needed. After the War of the Lance the draconians have free will to decide their fates as needed.. so they just arent "evil". After the Overlords all die, the dragonspawn have free will to decide their fates as needed also. This gives us "dragon people" of each color who could be a part of the setting and fit in very well. As I've said, I've been looking for a world that included reptiles/lizardmen/etc as an actual "real" race that didnt seem alien. And Dragonlance gives me that.
Again, I know I'm biased but I think too many things just werent given enough potential. The dragonspawn were just described as mindless servants. That discounts all the stories that there could be written about dragonspawn confronting their new nature, trying to go back to a society who knew them before, the seeking out of others of their kind, the procreating of their kind, etc. I realize a lot of this sounds like the original draconians, but I think eventually they would have been accepted into Teyr. The original draconians know how it feels. Also the original draconians dont have a "before time". Dragonspawn all remember what it was like before the transformation, at least until they had kids of their own. I dunno, sigh, I know it all will never happen but I hate to see dragonspawn die out because "eh we assumed they'd die anyways". Well i dont care what was planned out in the beginning, things change all the time. Maybe I'll even implement this in my game, would be interesting to see draconian pc's interact with dragonspawn. I have a dragonspawn character right now too. Hmm...
It just is human nature to want everything to stay the same.
Anyway. I enjoyed DoSF, BUT, I think it was a Major Jump to WoS. And didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but was still an interesting story. Basicly it all boils down to you can't please all the people all the time. But if you try real hard you can fool most of the people some of the time !
oh and one last thing... Whyy do all my characters end up looking like this guy?
I enjoyed DoSF, BUT, I think it was a Major Jump to WoS. And didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but was still an interesting story.
Well...of course it didn't. You missed 6 years of filler novels including one major forward moving trilogy.
And although War of Souls did ignore some of the more subtleties of the 5th Age...it really wasn't written with a lot of background information. It really wasn't written to jump from DoSF to WoS. There's just too much that happened in those 40 years.
Okay, what does this mean, "turning Dragonlance back into pre-Chaos War Dragonlance"? I just don't see it. Just because the gods are back? Just because the WoHS are back? Just because the overlords and spawn are dying out?
Nope. Because the Overlords are dying, their spawn are dying, the Academy has been destroyed, the sorcerers are few and far between and now they're loners and they're branded as Renegades so they'll be hunted down, no dragon mages, the Citadel has been destroyed, but is being rebuilt for the Mishikites, the Shield was destroyed, the Legion of Steel is still non-existant, the Hylar are back in control of Thorbardin, the Dragonlords are being killed off or ignored (or simply forgotten in the case of Pyrothraxus), the "affliction" has become a curse that can be cured, the Titans are MIA, the gods have returned and miracuously everyone accepts them with open arms and no hostility or distrust, the Wizards of High Sorcery have returned, and the Minotaur Nation is invading Ansalon (a clear pre-Chaos War 4th Age plot point that was never fully realized but mentioned several times).
Now...a lot of these things are represented (and represented well, I might add) in the game products...but as far as the novels and forward moving Dragonlance timeline is concerned, the 4th Age stuff has returned (including pre-Chaos War plot lines) and everything created in the 5th Age has either been destroyed, changed, or ignored completely (so far...although I might be forgetting something).
After all of this, you guys still claim that we're "going back to the 4th age"?
Not really. I didn't mean littereally going back to "pre-Chaos War Dragonlance"...and even so, I said "if" that's what they're doing, I can't stop them. Which was the true point of my post.
But, since you brought it up...
Most 5th Age fans are not upset about the 4th Age stuff returning (as most of us love 4th Age DL as well). We're not even upset about some of the things being gone (like you said, the Shield, the Overlords...they were there to be beaten eventually...even though I've been a little disappointed with the way some of them have gone, and their under-utilization while they were here). What we're truly upset about is how people who hate the 5th Age think we should just be gracious that any 5th Age material was kept around. It's a farce. Like I said, so far, all the new 5th Age material has either been destroyed, changed, or ignored. We aren't getting a compromise...we're getting 4th Age stuff with unrecognizeable 5th Age material that shares a name only with the stuff we know and love.
That is why we're upset. (well, me anyway)
(Tobin - Please note that I wasn't targeting you with this. I was just trying to illustrate a point.)
I know...but I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say (or I said it poorly, which is most likely
)Dragonlance as an ideal hasn't died within me yet, and i'm willing to bet the flame still glows in all of you too.
The death of Dhamon, I think, hit me pretty hard.
The death of a character isn't really enough to upset me (they usually don't...I've never been upset at a character's death before...). I think it was more like the final can of water poured over the embers that finally put out the fire.
It's been little things building up to this...the story of the Lioness being in the wrong place, with characters that have been long dead; in the major happenings of the dwarves, where's Severus; Ulin is no longer a dragon mage, he's not even a sorcerer...he's a alchemist; the sorcerers, the damned heroes of the 5th Age, are being hunted down like common criminals, by those they once called collegue and friend; Usha cheats on Palin; the Minotaurs invade Ansalon and ally with the ogres...where are the Titans; Splendor is killed.
All these little things...then the death of Dhamon...it came like a hammer blow. And I don't know if it's something I can recover from...my interest in Dragonlance has slowly been fading since 2000 (it's had it's ups and downs though)...and now, it may be over. I don't know...maybe it's just one of those troughs...but I feel I've lost Dragonlance to politics.
My only saving grace is Sovereign Press and Dragonlance gaming. Everything I want I can either find in the gaming material or create from it. But, with no stories to tell and no one to tell them too (ie, no PCs)...it won't be enough.
Damnit.
The minotaur invasion (as mentioned a 4th age plot thread) is occurring eerily at the same time as the Tarmak invasion. How many islanders are going to invade Ansalon anyway?
Regardless on what the original intent(cannon fodder or not) spawn were always unique for being the "chromatic draconians" at least from the visual standpoint(even though 5th age fans know the were much deeper than that). That is now lost with the Noble Draconians (I raelize the alignment differences, I'm just speaking fom the visual standpoint).
We now have adventure hooks under the water in two more places. We have the Tower of Istar under the Blood Sea as well as Qualinost under the lake of death. Combine that with the Sea elves living in Istar as shown in Chronicles, as well as Dirminost. Did we really need nore underwater adventure settings?
Speaking of Qualinost, it is now populated by ghosts, much like the missing city USED to be. Granted the ghosts in the missing city did not interact with the living like those in Qualinost, but did we have to destroy one ghost city just so we could have another?
We lose Lord Soth but gain Lord Krell, even though their personalities are different, end result one death knight has been replaced with another.
Say what you will about the Overlords and Dragonlords being powerful and dominating the lands and storylines, at least it hadn't been done before on Krynn. In fact even though it is reminiscent of Athas, how is that relevant since I would guess the average novel readed had no knowledge of Dark Sun. I'm all for Sovereign Press and the new life spun into Dl, but I would like to see respect for what has come before as well as new ground breaking ideas. So far I see a lot of the same ground being covered again and again.
And the High God spoketh onto the people of Krynn...
"Beware when people change editions!"
and Gilean asked "Why O'Lord?"
The High God said "There are some whose whom the Second Edition with its kits and massive amount of supplementary information are sacred!"
Gilean said "But why o'lord? Propheciencies are unwieldy, armor class makes no sense, no one understands thaco, and the classes are unbalanced along with race!"
The High God said "Each game is different Gilean and what matters is not the rules themselves but how people interpret them. Boldly look yonder onto the world of Krynn the Fifth age and see with new eyes!"
Gilean looked upon the Fifth Age and said "Gasp! I see a world that shall draw people that wish the gods NOT to be interventionalist! That wish to face impossible odds under godlike figures! Dragon fans whom want terrifying epic overlords that hold the setting in the thrall of a Sauron like power. Magic that is unbeholden to gods or orders of high sorcery!"
The High God said "Indeed, the spawn and mutants from the Second Cataclysm are pretty darn cool too."
Gilean said "But how can this be? The gods and other stuff was what made Dragonlance popular!"
The High God replied "New fans have come Gilean! Like sorcerers to the new magic, the two settings will blend but each shall have its own adherents."
Gilean spoke "I see..."
The High God nodded "Except much in the way of complaining. Now go forth and work thy retcons!"
Gilean said then "Praise be unto thee Lord Hickman."
The High God finished "SSHHHH!"
The thing is, I love to make use of and incorporate a wide variety of Dragonlance themes and elements in my work. I really enjoy the palette that's been provided by the designers and authors of the past, and those of the present. I don't like to think of things in terms of 4th age versus 5th age because those labels are divisive and serve only to polarize a fanbase that's already got a million things to argue over. Rather, I think in terms of what's been used before, what was done to those things, and how those things can be brought back into the ongoing canvas of Dragonlance.
Dragonlance is about change, and conflict. It is strange to me to think that anybody would want things to remain as they are - they never have. There hasn't been a single edition, novel, supplement or sourcebook published since the very beginning that hasn't added to, altered, moved beyond, or in some cases purposefully reinvented or removed elements of the past. This is ongoing! It happened all the way through the Fifth Age SAGA products, and it happened before them, and it happens now.
It will keep happening, since this is the way of things for the setting. It's dynamic, it grows, it evolves. It remembers its past, and it holds onto some of the foundations that supported it over the years. It's not a setting that permanently abandons something - it will always come back in some shape or form, even if it's only minor. But it's not one that's afraid to make lasting changes to the characters, places, events and plotlines that make up the bulk of existing continuity.
I can promise, without needing to pause to think about it, that everything I do to contribute towards Sovereign Press' caretaking of the setting involves consideration for, respect for, and an understanding of all eras and editions of Krynn. I can't imagine how to write for this setting without that. I don't have anywhere near the courage, talent or vision possessed by some of the setting's greatest contributors, both D&D and SAGA, but I hope that I know what I'm doing, and I trust Sovereign Press implicitly with their own courage, talent and vision.
Cheers,
Cam
It will keep happening, since this is the way of things for the setting. It's dynamic, it grows, it evolves.
I don't mind change, obviously, as the change caused by the Chaos War effected me very little...although I do abhore most all retcons.
What I lament is the loss of some great ideas before they could be explored properly.
I don't mind change, obviously, as the change caused by the Chaos War effected me very little...although I do abhore most all retcons.
What I lament is the loss of some great ideas before they could be explored properly.
With a license as grounded as it is on the success of the earlier eras, which continue to draw readers and new audiences regardless of the forward movement of the setting in general, the notion that a great idea was never fully or properly explored loses some of its fire. It's entirely possible that you don't like what happened to character or concept X, but you can't deny that exploring character or concept X retroactively is never out of the question.
Cheers,
Cam
The Dragon Overlords
The Dragon Overlords didn't get enough exposure? Sable played a major role in no less than 7 novels (DoNA trilogy, Dhamon Trilogy, and Lake of Death) plus mention in various short stories and adventure modules. Malystryx was in 7 plus adventure modules and short stories. Gellidus has been in 3 novels plus an adventure module. Beryl in 3 or 4 novels. They have had plenty of exposure.
As for the complaint that she didn't die in a major story... I have to say that this can only be if her story doesn't demand to be noticed. If Raistlin had died (the first time) in a stand-alone, would it not be considered a major story?
Besides, if the 5th Age had actually resolved some of their dragon overlord plotlines rather than dragging their feet on them, perhaps there would have been a suitable finale to their story. If they had allowed Malystryx to die in the DoNA trilogy for example, and mentioned it in following products the after-effects of her death. If they had allows PC's to destroy a dragon overlord in their series of adventures. If they had actually advanced the plotline of the world at all through their adventures, rather than simply bringing things back to the status quo at the end. Now you're blaming Sovereign Press and WotC for finally wrapping up these storylines?
Now why do the Dragon Overlords have to die? Well because they want to develop the regions that they currently inhabit with something other than one big dragon. Look at writeups of both Southern Ergoth and Sable's realm. Notice that in both I actually allowed the civilizations to survive under the Dragon Overlords? I shrunk Sable's swamp to allow for New Coast Barbarians and the Kingdom of Blodeheim. I allowed Gellidus to cause his Ice to retreat so that Southern Ergoth could actually have a growing season. Why? Because Overlord Desolation areas are simply hack and slash locales if you don't have intelligent and non-alien humaniods.
If the Dragon Overlords hadn't terraformed large sections of Dragonlance, they wouldn't have to go. If they had ruled rather than simply destroyed, they wouldn't have to go. Now I will greive with you on the loss of the Dragonlords Iyesta and Thunder. I will support you in the quest to keep the Dragonlords alive (except Pyrothraxus who I think has to go to keep the flavour of Mt. Nevermind intact) but I refuse to shed a single tear over the Dragon Overlords. Saying their desolations added something to the setting is like saying that a toxic waste dump on the outskirts of town is good for city development.
The 5th Age new cultures and nations
Well look at that... everything is still here. Khur is exactly as it was in the 5th Age. Duntillok is still around as it was. Clare Elian and Northern Ergoth with the Ackalites is still around. Again, I will grieve with you on the loss of Iyesta and the Missing City. That was a damn cool place. But you know what? I'm going to blame Malystyx and the 5th Age design team as much as I'm going to blame Mary Herbert and WotC. I would venture a guess that the new kingdom of the Tarmak (which I like, because I like the Brutes) that Mary Herbert wanted to create could have been placed on the East Side of the Dairly Plains if it wasn't rendered uninhabitable by that Dragon Overlord.
However the fact is that the vast majority of setting detail that didn't revolve around the Dragon Overlords still remains. Perhaps if the 5th Age design team had given us a decent gazzeteer more elements would remain that they created. Now War of the Lance is the book that will definitively define the setting. It will define its mood, how large its armies are, how scattered or numerous the population is, which dynasties rule over the land, and so forth. Saying that the 5th Age expanded the setting more than any other product was true until the DLCS came out, and was rendered ludicrous as a statment this month with the release of War of the Lance.
If the 5th Age team had created 60 or 600 story elements rather than just the same 6 you keep harping about (afflicted kender, ogre titans, dragonspawn, dragon overlords, sorcery and mysticism) then perhaps you wouldn't have to worry about those 6 because there would be 54 major story elements left. For the record, only one of those things listed has left the setting.
It's entirely possible that you don't like what happened to character or concept X, but you can't deny that exploring character or concept X retroactively is never out of the question.
Nope, you're right...it'll just take a decade as it has with this new Young Readers series.
(which are really quite good...as a side note here, if anyone is not reading them simply because of the YR lable, I strongly suggest checking this out anyway)
Besides, if the 5th Age had actually resolved some of their dragon overlord plotlines rather than dragging their feet on them, perhaps there would have been a suitable finale to their story.
They were never given a chance. Dragons of a New Age had hardly ended before work began on War of Souls. WotC did not care, the sales were horrible (apparently) and they decided all forward work on the 5th Age would stop. It's not that the 5th Age team didn't resolve their plot lines...they weren't allowed to resolve them. And so they've just been left open and ignored.
Well look at that... everything is still here. Khur is exactly as it was in the 5th Age. Duntillok is still around as it was. Clare Elian and Northern Ergoth with the Ackalites is still around.
Yeah...and if it weren't for the gaming material...who would even know? No one.
If the 5th Age team had created 60 or 600 story elements rather than just the same 6 you keep harping about (afflicted kender, ogre titans, dragonspawn, dragon overlords, sorcery and mysticism) then perhaps you wouldn't have to worry about those 6 because there would be 54 major story elements left. For the record, only one of those things listed has left the setting.
A lot of things haven't left the setting...but as I've said several times above (but I'll repeat it here) the things that remain are either a) being ignored, or b) changed so much that they hardly resemble what they originally were.
Again...this is not the the gaming line I'm talking about as everything is still there, mostly (although a few things were left out, and it is certainly guilty of off the wall changes as well...but that can hardly be helped when switching to a new gaming system).
When I approach writing, I try to be a completist. It's almost comical to watch me write, as I'm at my computer surrounded by a semicircle of Dragonlance products, including novels and gaming products of every edition.
I try my best to cover as much of a topic as possible. The gaming products I use comes from 1st and 2nd editions, the SAGA materials, as well as the d20 Dragonlance materials. Sure, I have my own biases. We all do. But I can put them aside where writing is concerned.
For example, there's a module from 2nd edition I was taking materials from for a write-up. I don't consider this module to be very canon-friendly where DL is concerned, yet one section was of considerable help, so I incorporated it.
I try to incorporate as much as I can. I look at all editions, often looking for things that were not too well developed in order to expand on them and give them new life.
Or at least dramatically more satisfying.
I do have a suggestion. While I too am a professional writer and know that everyone chosen is chosen for a reason/should be trusted to know what their doing...
I hope they let the "Dice fall where they may"
Simply introduce the elements back in and follow the logical pattern and where along what they would do in the situation presented to them.
Was actually a problem because it was the only novel series that in my mind was completely pointless. The heroes did absolutely nothing in the story and none of the Great Dragons were killed. It would have been far better personally to have introduced a Dragon that DID unite them and have him killed.
Or at least dramatically more satisfying.
I do have a suggestion. While I too am a professional writer and know that everyone chosen is chosen for a reason/should be trusted to know what their doing...
I hope they let the "Dice fall where they may"
Simply introduce the elements back in and follow the logical pattern and where along what they would do in the situation presented to them.
Right, keeping Malys from becoming a diety and even more powerful was completely pointless
.and i'm sure the death of Brine meant absolutely nothing to the Dirmenesti. ;)
As far as letting the dice fall where they may, go ahead becuase I can already see where this is going. Ms. Weiss and Mr. Hickman appear to have a history when it comes to Dragonlance. If they are not involved in certain elements, well then the elements do not matter.
Case in point: James Lowder wroteh the Soth books for the Ravenloft line. He posted on the Ravenloft Baords here at wizards that Mr Hickman and Ms wiess were offered the chance to edit and serve as consultants to those books (I don't remember if he said they were offered to write it) to make sure Soth stayed true to character and they declined. They were adamant that Soth not go to Ravenloft, but again due to being part of a shared world Soth was removed and Mr Lowder also built in a device for Soth's return to Krynn.
Low and behold, Soth shows up in DoSF, published before Spectre of the Black Rose which released Soth back to Krynn. It would be an easy fix stating that times moves different in Ravenloft and even though he was in the ravenloft timeline for lets say 50+ years, only a few years had passed on Krynn. When posed with the question about Soth at last years gen con, Margaret and Tracy both stated "As far as we're concerned he was never there". Thereby calling into question the vaildity of 2 novels as well all the Ravenloft game products. Lesson to be learned: If MR Hickman and Ms. Weiss don't have a hand in decisions made regarding the DL setting, decisions made without them do not last long.
This is what makes me afraid for sorcery, mystics, the legion and all the rest. I realize they created the world, but it is a shared world. Dragonhelm and Cam have offered some reassurance(my thanks for that), and they have more input than the rest of us, but again there input could be easily over ruled.
My big problem right now is that Tobin is saying what i'm thinking, and cam and trampas are saying what i want to believe.
I think mine is that some of the excitement for Dragonlance has just gone away...and has been slipping away for a few years. My stack of unread DL books keeps getting taller and taller...
I'm just trying to put into words an intangible feeling...trying to understand why this may be so. They're just musings and rantings...it's all just kind of coming out. One can't help how they feel...I just wish I could understand it completely.
It's frustrating.
Right, keeping Malys from becoming a diety and even more powerful was completely pointless
Maybe because I didn't think for a second that there was actually a real chance Malys could become a deity affected my idea. Malys was a very effective Red Dragon but she wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed if you know what I mean. Raistlin Majere I could see destroying the universe. Arikan by virtue of his pedigree, I see has a chance of becoming one. Hell, even Mina.
Malys has the same chance as I think Anakin Skywalker of the Prequels.
"And someday I'll be the most powerful Dragon EVAR! You'll see Obi Wan!"
and i'm sure the death of Brine meant absolutely nothing to the Dirmenesti. ;)
We didn't see him long enough in the books to make a difference honestly. At least in my opinion, a contrast between before and after might have made a serious feeling. I would have felt better if later sources had addressed the Dimrmenesti becoming a focus of resistance against the Dragob Overlords.
As far as letting the dice fall where they may, go ahead becuase I can already see where this is going. Ms. Weiss and Mr. Hickman appear to have a history when it comes to Dragonlance. If they are not involved in certain elements, well then the elements do not matter.
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed...wait, wrong movie. Don't forget Ms. Weis and Mr. Hickman CREATED the elements of a Fifth Age with Dragons of Summer flame. Ms. Weis and Hickman I think are actually enjoying some of the new elements like Wild Sorcery....
I don't know about Mysticism personally though.
They were adamant that Soth not go to Ravenloft, but again due to being part of a shared world Soth was removed and Mr Lowder also built in a device for Soth's return to Krynn.
The point is that in this respect, TSR stomped on the artistic intergrity of the characters. I myself am writing seven books for a shared universe project and two other authors declined to work with me because I had to sign a contract that would allow others to use my characters and change them as I see fit. I have the EXACT SAME consulting option....(and I intend to use it) but I am subject to their wishes.
I don't blame my friends for declining though because they are attached to their characters
Low and behold, Soth shows up in DoSF, published before Spectre of the Black Rose which released Soth back to Krynn. It would be an easy fix stating that times moves different in Ravenloft and even though he was in the ravenloft timeline for lets say 50+ years, only a few years had passed on Krynn.
That's exactly what they did you know.
When posed with the question about Soth at last years gen con, Margaret and Tracy both stated "As far as we're concerned he was never there". Thereby calling into question the vaildity of 2 novels as well all the Ravenloft game products. Lesson to be learned: If MR Hickman and Ms. Weiss don't have a hand in decisions made regarding the DL setting, decisions made without them do not last long.
Yes, why? Because Hickman and Weis felt overulled and betrayed by the company who said that they didn't care about Soth's history of Krynn, they wanted to put him in Ravenloft. They also didn't care about their objections. The fact that the Lowder books were GOOD didn't change this.
I think a Creator's opinion should be valued personally. Frankly, Soth would have been better off having been an original character in those novels.
This is what makes me afraid for sorcery, mystics, the legion and all the rest. I realize they created the world, but it is a shared world. Dragonhelm and Cam have offered some reassurance(my thanks for that), and they have more input than the rest of us, but again there input could be easily over ruled.
Weis and Hickman now have re-established their rule over Krynn, ditto for Ed Greenwood, and good for them I say. Even Gary Gygax has been invited back for limited consulation. The original authors are what made the world what it is.
They created the Fifth Age though and I'm happy to have their ideas behind its themes present
They created the Fifth Age though and I'm happy to have their ideas behind its themes present
No they didn't. They ended the 4th Age. There's a difference.
Anyway...I think it's pretty clear that the major culprit here is that no one is allowed to ease into or out of big changes. The 4th Dragon War officiall ends with the Blue Lady's War...but then we jump ahead 25 years and create huge changes at the end of it.
Jump ahead another 30 years to get us back into a semi-recognizeable fantasy world, but only offer up about 50 pages to catch us up on the huge sweeping changes.
Jump ahead another 6 years ignroring what just happened and don't talk at all about the past 6 years and incorporate huge changes again.
It's too much. We're not allowed to ease into the changes, getting to know and understand the changes, getting to know and understand the whys and the whats and the wheres and the whos.
What is my hope beyond hope is that the Minotaur Wars and Dark Disciple and the Linsha Trilogy and Rise of Solamnia are all indicative of things to come...no more huge time jumps...no more massive change (well...that's not necessary...but less of it would be nice).
I'm just hoping that it's not to late for me...I wouldn't think it was...but it certainly is hard to convince myself to open up a new DL book these days.
See thats my problem with most of the novels that have been coming out, and its almost the breaking point where I just ignore them. I've been gaming on a regular basis now and its really annoying when every single novel that comes out is changing huge swaths of things. I mean come on. I know the world needs to move foward, but does it need to take huge leaps everytime a novel comes out? I like to keep my games as close to the novels as possible, but its becoming more and more harder. I want novels that tell stories that are neat and do unique things, but stop changing the world with each one. Overlords dying, Brutes invading, Minotaurs invading, Solamnic Knights rising up with an emperor?(who knows), etc. I'm tired of it. We dont need broad changes every novel just to make the stories good. Let us have a little break before each world shaping event.
I've been playing Dragonlance since the beginning and only VERY RECENTLY did we get up to the Blue Lady's war on Palanthas. Then we had to figure out whether or not to time skip to the Chaos War and whether or not to actually do the Age of Mortals. It also meant even if we did, several characters would die of old age and only the elves would live.
My whole point is that if something happens that the original creators didn't have a hand in, it gets swept under the rug and teh Soth situation is a precedent for that. As far as the rest of your post, and off topic, what is it that you wrire? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Just curious if I've read anything by you.
Change is good, and in DL expected.
But when the change is as sudden as a car hitting a wall at 80 mph, change is bad. What we need is for a smooth transition. Big events happen in other settings all the time, but never with the sudden jolt that hits us. It's like we're in a stick shifter car with a driver who never learned to drive, and only knows how to slam the brake or the gas with both feet. This is a recipe for disaster.
So what do we do? This is a decision for the editors, really, and they need to learn to ease up a bit. I hate, hate, HATE the fact that DL retroactivly fills in the gaps between story hops. The linsha books, the minotaur books, the dhamon books could have all come out simultaniously with WoS and eased in a transition period.
We had this same problem before. the chaos war/ bridges of time novels didnt come out till after DoaNA, by which point it was too little too late.
With WoS we saw the same thing again.
Why can't wotc or the editors ease us in? Why can't they start laying the foundation for future huge story arcs years in advance, and slowly build up to hte main event? We'd already seen the preliminary attempts at this with Sylvan Veil and Rise of the Titans.
But instead, we're hit with a barrage of super changes at once. yeah, trilogies take years to come out and all that, but you know what i mean. Look at the schedule. we get a superchanger story arc, and then a year or two of fillers, reprints and historicals, and then BAM! the timeline jumps x years and totally remakes the setting. Fans grumble a bit, and are told that we should have appreciated it while it was still around.
You know the analogy we use most with DL? a pond of stagnant water. Rather than building a stream or a filter or something to keep the water gently moving, or at least continually flowing, every few years, someone comes along, drains the pond completly and refills it with some chlorinated replacement. A lot of the pond life dies out and doesnt come back. Those that live try to make the best of the new situation, and hope that the next clensing isnt as bad. and those who came to enjoy the stagnation are left high and dry.
Or something. You see where i'm going here.
I hate, hate, HATE the fact that DL retroactivly fills in the gaps between story hops.
I'm hoping this has ended. The Dhamon Saga did come out at the same time as War of Souls...and we already have three books that take place after the War of Souls (and none of them are more than a year later!
) This all bodes well...let's just hope another Dragons of Summer Flame/Dragons of a New Age/War of Souls change never happens again. (and that it's not too little too late...)
They were never given a chance. Dragons of a New Age had hardly ended before work began on War of Souls. WotC did not care, the sales were horrible (apparently) and they decided all forward work on the 5th Age would stop. It's not that the 5th Age team didn't resolve their plot lines...they weren't allowed to resolve them.
Oh come now, it isn't as if they created a series bible and were never allowed to publish anything. They had:
1. Heroes of Hope
2. Heroes of Defiance
3. Heroes of Steel
4. Citadel of Light
5. Heroes of Sorcery
6. The Last Tower
7. Wings of Fury
That's 7 adventures, and they couldn't resolve any of their plotlines? The simple fact is that they didn't want to resolve their plotlines. They wanted to do little adventures which showed off the dragon overlords without doing anything about them... except for Brine. (Whose Spawn, btw, show up in BoK).
They also had about 20 novels, but they chose to spend those novels telling stories which had already been covered in the game material.
[on 5th Age geographical stuff]
Yeah...and if it weren't for the gaming material...who would even know? No one.
Yeah, but the gaming material is always more comprehensive than novel material. After all, take a look at the Ogre Titans (who more properly belong to the WoS era than the 5th Age) whom we haven't seen yet. How many Legionnaires of Steel did we see in 5th Age novels? Where was the novel featuring Clare Elian? Where was the Novel about Northern Ergoth?
If you want to know if something exists in a D&D setting, you look in the gaming material. In the novels people write what they think will make for an interesting story and get themselves fed. If the 5th Age elements aren't interesting the novels writers what can we do about it? It isn't as if they, or the novel line editor, reads these boards.
A lot of things haven't left the setting...but as I've said several times above (but I'll repeat it here) the things that remain are either a) being ignored, or b) changed so much that they hardly resemble what they originally were.
The only two things that are being kept but changed are:
1) The Legion of Steel - Which are cooler now than they were in the 5th Age.
2) Sorcery and Mysticism - Of which the change is merely a matter of a game mechanic change, rather than flavour text.
Now if you want the game mechanic of true spontaneous casting back, I could ressurect my project trying to make a method of sorcery using skills and feats. You take a skill in a type of magic (pyromancy, hydromancy), and then use feats to find new ways of shaping that magic (ray, 20 foot burst, cone).
It think it could work, and it would be a valuable part of any D20 book on Sorcery and Mysticism. However, since I couldn't get the schools of enchantment and summoning to work in this model (nevermind that I could include mishaps and creating spells on the fly) you and some other 5th Age fans said you didn't want it. I could ressurect it if you are little less picky now.
Mr Phillips, I agree with you as far as the rights of the creators, you'll get no argument from me on that one, unless they pull a Todd Mcfarlane and crusade for creators rights and then deny them to others, thus becoming what they once hated. They probably were dumped on by the upper management and felt betrayed. The problem is the deal with Soth was done, and it wasn't his creators that fixed the problem (as I stated the didn't want anything to do with the Ravenloft situation) it was James Lowder who fixed the scenario. And they did not have a hand in the 5th age design at all. they just set the styage by ending the fouth age and it was believed at the time that they ended DL as well.
Just for reference, it's Phipps not Philips. Phipps is a Scottish name. Its similiar but not the same like Luthor vs. Luther. A good mnenonic device is the Pretzel chips if you remember them.
In any case, Mr. Lowder's respect for the Creators should be lauded and you'll get no arguement from me.
I will also point out that they didn't have a hand in the Fith Age past setting up the theme (DoSF also could be seen as 'wrecking' the world since they were fired from being involved in it from this point- they took away everything they didn't want touched...I don't see them as that petty though).
They have incorporated a lot into things though. The Knights of Nekara weren't remade back into their original forms and while Mystics/Sorcerers do somewhat get the shaft...they DIDN'T choose to say that all Mystics lost their power or that Sorcerers suddenly all became renagades or wizards of High Sorcery.
My whole point is that if something happens that the original creators didn't have a hand in, it gets swept under the rug and teh Soth situation is a precedent for that. As far as the rest of your post, and off topic, what is it that you wrire? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Just curious if I've read anything by you.
This is the fact though, Soth wasn't fitting in even to the RL writers and they decided to replace him. The fact remains, I believe in SP that Soth WAS gone. Like Ed Greenwood, what Margeret says is important but NOT canon unless in a book...kinda like Mathew and Cam on these boards.
As for what I've written, I'm what's termed right now probably a 'failed' fantasy writer. My published works I'm disowning so while you can look up my name, I wouldn't advise you reading them.
The current book deal I have is for seven books from people who believed in me when I lost faith in myself. They're cyberpunk novels set in the 24th century. I'm quite proud of them and I look forward to their release next year.
Oh come now, it isn't as if they created a series bible and were never allowed to publish anything.
Terry...come on, how can you resolve anything retroactively? You can't. You have to move forward...which they weren't allowed to do. Your 7 adventures all coincide with Dragons of a New Age...which (rightly or wrongly) was where they started the the new saga. All the novels are retroactive fill...not very conducive to resolving plot lines.
There was the Crossroads series, but that was nothing more than filler for between War of Souls and Dragons of a New Age. It certainly didn't do the job it was sold to the fans as doing, which was to bridge the gap between the two.
If you can't go forward with your plan...you can't resolve anything.
How many Legionnaires of Steel did we see in 5th Age novels? Where was the novel featuring Clare Elian? Where was the Novel about Northern Ergoth?
That's my point! It's nowhere...they don't exist. Period. This isn't a 5th Age Team vs. post-WoS team...everyone dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned. I was just hoping that now we had a chance to fix the mistakes of the past, but they aren't. They've decided to forget about the past mistakes, move forward and try not to make them again. (which is, of course, arguably has it's merits as well)
This is the fact though, Soth wasn't fitting in even to the RL writers and they decided to replace him. The fact remains, I believe in SP that Soth WAS gone. Like Ed Greenwood, what Margeret says is important but NOT canon unless in a book...kinda like Mathew and Cam on these boards.
Hey...um...you misquoted there. It wasn't me who said that. I'd appreciate it if you would take my name of that.
Thanks man!
Terry...come on, how can you resolve anything retroactively? You can't. You have to move forward...which they weren't allowed to do.
Then it is the novel line editor's fault, not Sovereign Press'. If they handed the job over to Weis and Hickman, they are certainly allowed to resolve it their own own way.
Your 7 adventures all coincide with Dragons of a New Age...which (rightly or wrongly) was where they started the the new saga. All the novels are retroactive fill...not very conducive to resolving plot lines.
But why didn't they kill of Malystryx in DoNA? Why didn't Skie stay banished in the netherworld? That would have been two storylines resolved right there. Then we could have killed off Beryl, Sable, and Gellidus in WoS. Then we would have both gotten what we wanted. You would have had the 5th Age team resolve some of their own plot lines, and I could have had all the Overlords already dead. ;)
Was this what the 5th Age team intended, or was this like Goldmoon where Jean Rabe killed somebody off and the game line writers objected? Did W&H summon these creatures back from death so they could kill them themselves... or did they always intend for them to survive the ambiguous deaths at the end of Eve of the Maelstrom?
This isn't a 5th Age Team vs. post-WoS team...everyone dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned. I was just hoping that now we had a chance to fix the mistakes of the past, but they aren't. They've decided to forget about the past mistakes, move forward and try not to make them again. (which is, of course, arguably has it's merits as well)
Well what mistakes are they forgetting about? I mean, I wanted to retcon the fact that the desolations were their current size if you remember, and I was told that it wasn't canonical.
They are making improvements though aren't they? You now have heroes created for the novel rather than dragging up the same old fossils. Novels seem to be written for the most part to advance events in the world rather than just filling in character backstory (though Prisoner of Haven is the exception which I refuse to buy).
Then it is the novel line editor's fault, not Sovereign Press'. If they handed the job over to Weis and Hickman, they are certainly allowed to resolve it their own own way.
I have not once blamed Weis and Hickman for this...and I certainly am not blaming Soverign Press. (please see post #103)
They are making improvements though aren't they?
Okay...I know there is a lot of writing here and a ton of posts...but you are reading my posts right?
I don't know...maybe I'm just not being even remotely clear.
I know two things:
1) After an initial excitement about post-War of Souls Dragonlance, I have since, in general, been disappointed with how it has been going. And I'm starting to lose interest in reading new Dragonlance material.
2) I really can't explain why.
Yes, I can see that it appears things are getting better for the future. But there's no guarantee...and even if it is better, if I can't bring myself to enjoy it anymore, what good does it do me?
TSR stomped on the artistic intergrity of the characters.
Bull. Soth was doing nothing in DL.
W&H, essentially, walked away from DL after Legends.
They could have done something with Soth after that trilogy but chose not to.
So when he showed up in DoSF, it seemed like nothing more than giving the finger to RL. And, in a way, it felt like after that single chapter in WoS, that they were giving the fans the finger too.
Now, I know it's not literally like that, but W&H whined and moaned with the best of them over Soth, and STILL failed to utilize him. So I don't see how the heck you can complain when somebody else does.
There was the Crossroads series, but that was nothing more than filler for between War of Souls and Dragons of a New Age. It certainly didn't do the job it was sold to the fans as doing, which was to bridge the gap between the two.
One author told me that the purpose of that series wasn't to bridge the gap between DoaNA and WoS like we thought it would, but, to paraphase, only to tell stories in well known places with more (possible) HotL relations.
Case in point: James Lowder wroteh the Soth books for the Ravenloft line. He posted on the Ravenloft Baords here at wizards that Mr Hickman and Ms wiess were offered the chance to edit and serve as consultants to those books (I don't remember if he said they were offered to write it) to make sure Soth stayed true to character and they declined. They were adamant that Soth not go to Ravenloft, but again due to being part of a shared world Soth was removed and Mr Lowder also built in a device for Soth's return to Krynn.
Margaret and Tracy have their views, as do we all. Part of their views is that DL should not be part of the great wheel cosmology of 2nd edition.
Now, I think Soth going to Ravenloft was cool and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, I also see where Margaret and Tracy are coming from. Really, their point is validated by the module Wild Elves, where we see spelljamming drow on Krynn.
Not every world has to touch upon each other, and when they do, they can sometimes introduce elements that go against the flavor of the setting.
Margaret and Tracy have their views, as do we all. Part of their views is that DL should not be part of the great wheel cosmology of 2nd edition.
Now, I think Soth going to Ravenloft was cool and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, I also see where Margaret and Tracy are coming from. Really, their point is validated by the module Wild Elves, where we see spelljamming drow on Krynn.
Not every world has to touch upon each other, and when they do, they can sometimes introduce elements that go against the flavor of the setting.
DH I wont comment on Wild Elves as I haven't read it. And I agree, Margaret and Tracy can have their views, and TSR at the time had theirs. However as TSR was in charge, theirs won out. The problem comes from the fact that the whole Soth debacle, in my mind, set a precedent that is being followed to this day. If it wasn't created by Margaret and Tracy (and by default, their design team) it needs to be fixed. The minotaur invasion has spun out of WoS, and by reading between the lines, it's roots go back before then. Tarmak invasion features characters (brutes)created by them. The idea of reuniting of the elven empires has goes back to marrying Alhana and Porthios. These three elements being built upon have all been spun out of their work. Other than being ignored whats happening with teh Ogre Titans? How is Silvara's resistance in Ergoth going? But if you look at the things that have been destroyed, as mentioned in the first post of this thread. See anything there that Margaret and Tracy had their hand in from the beginning? I'm not saying that they are purposefully getting rid of the 5th age elements, but they do have a track record of ignoring things that they do not like. Which has me skeptical of the remaining elements done by the 5th age team. I agree with on eof your ealier posts about wanting to see something constructive done, but so far some of the new elements that I have seen are redundant that i noted before.
The idea of reuniting of the elven empires has goes back to marrying Alhana and Porthios.
Frankly, its alot older but I don't see it happening. Neither people really care for another despite their attempts to reunite.
Other than being ignored whats happening with the Ogre Titans?
I presume ruling over Ogredom in Qualinesti. Frankly, they can't last very long, they'll waste their entire kingdom trying to capture enough elves to supply them. They need to find a "cure"
Either that or keep a hell of a big blood bank of elves.
How is Silvara's resistance in Ergoth going?
The land is free and well, frankly. Its a small element to the greater whole.
Don't get me wrong...I never expected the Overlords to stick around for ever. I'm just disgusted at their under usage while they were around and at they way they're going to be tossed aside.
Malys, Skie, and Beryl...those demises were pretty well done (Beryl's most of all...Malys a bit less...Skie's was disappointing)...but at least it happened in a major story.
Sable, well, I was hoping she was going to bite it in the Dhamon Saga...but instead they did it in a stand alone...with a fight that is more or less impersonal and happens off screen (we see it from Ragh's point of view...and therefore really see nothing).
If nothing is allowed to happen except in the main story, no one will bother to read the other books; but then again, since no one reads these books anyway, it might be better not to have things happpening in them.