Largerly...would it have been possible for Dhamon to take out Sable, strictly D&D speaking? Is it possible for an adult shadow dragon to take out an advanced wyrm black dragon?
My initial thought was that the shadow dragon is actually uniquely suited to taking out a Dragon Overlord. An Overlord is dangerous for one reason only...they have gained levels beyond what should be normally possible (and therefore have become more dangerous and powerful than should be possible). Now, the shadow dragon has an ability that attacks this very feature...his breath weapon...it is a cloud of negative level drain. This is exactly the weapon needed to bring those beasts down to size. Now, it only does 3 or 4 levels at a time (if the dragon fails its Reflex save...which is highly likely). So...Dhamon does this three or four times...and Sable is in real trouble.
Now, Dhamon would need the evasion feat to help him survive her breath weapons...because I doubt she would attack him out right as her size and his size puts her at a considerable disadvantage (especially after a few blasts of his breath weapon). So, her best bet would be to stick with the breath weapon. Now, I'm not sure if Dhamon has this feat...but given the Lake of Death, I think we can pretty much ignore the stats in Age of Mortals as not being an accurate portrayal of Dhamon in the book.
Even though the AoM stats could still be considered "official," for the sake of argument let's ignore them all except for Dhamon's age category.
So, the question is...what would Dhamon need (feat and skill wise) to be able to destroy Sable?
One final note...aside from the reflex save...is there anything else that Sable can do to shake off the negative level drain breath weapon? (because if she can...then this is probably a lost cause)
My initial thought was that the shadow dragon is actually uniquely suited to taking out a Dragon Overlord. An Overlord is dangerous for one reason only...they have gained levels beyond what should be normally possible (and therefore have become more dangerous and powerful than should be possible). Now, the shadow dragon has an ability that attacks this very feature...his breath weapon...it is a cloud of negative level drain. This is exactly the weapon needed to bring those beasts down to size. Now, it only does 3 or 4 levels at a time (if the dragon fails its Reflex save...which is highly likely). So...Dhamon does this three or four times...and Sable is in real trouble.
Actually, the DC for an adult shadow dragon's breath weapon is only 24. Sable has a +25 reflex save, so she'd have to botch to fail that save. However, even if you make your save against the energy drain you take half the levels in loss. As an adult shadow dragon, Dhamon's level drain = 3 levels, which would be rounded down to 1 negative level when Sable inevitably makes her reflex saves.
Now, Dhamon would need the evasion feat to help him survive her breath weapons...because I doubt she would attack him out right as her size and his size puts her at a considerable disadvantage (especially after a few blasts of his breath weapon).
Since when is evasion a feat? In D&D I've only ever seen it as a class feature. I suppose Dhamon could have benefitted from a Ring of Evasion.
One final note...aside from the reflex save...is there anything else that Sable can do to shake off the negative level drain breath weapon? (because if she can...then this is probably a lost cause)
Sable can cast wish ... so I'd say it's a lost cause for Dhamon, unless for some reason Sable had used up her four 9th level spells for the day.
Alternatively, maybe Dharmon had gained some levels. Do Shadow dragons have sorc casting? I'm away from my books right now.
Does she have Limited Wish? That can emulate Death Ward and/or Restoration, which pretty much ends the chance of Dharmon draining her.
Good point. Limited Wish, maybe (I'd have to look). But, even if she does, she can ony cast it a maximum of 6 times (since she's a sorcerer)...once that happens, she's out of protection and Dhamon should pretty much have unlimited breath weapon uses.
Okay...let's say Dhamon is a Mature adult...which means his breath weapon drains 4 levels (2 if the Reflex save is made...which is highly unlikely for Sable). Now, once it is decided that it will be 4 or 2 levels...is there another save to see if they take effect (I would think not, as that would make that breath weapon basically worthless compared to other dragons as it doesn't do any damage aside from that)...but the write up in both the AoM and the Draconomicon (which are actually identical) are a bit ambiguous about it...nor does it say how long the negative levels last.
But...if it doesn't, and the negative levels last a while, every time Dhamon hits her with his breath weapon, she basically looses one age category (and all the BAB, saves, hit points, spells, special abilities, etc. that go with it). The only thing that doesn't change would be her size...and there fore her AC penalty...so the more breath weapon she takes, the weaker she gets, and the easier it becomes for Dhamon to hit her.
Right? Or am I missing something here?
Actually, the DC for an adult shadow dragon's breath weapon is only 24. Sable has a +25 reflex save, so she'd have to botch to fail that save.
Man...I don't know what I was thinking. For some reason I thought the Reflex saves wouldn't increase very much since their DEX doesn't go up at all.
Well...that shoots all that down. Although I still think a shadow dragon is uniquely suited to taking out an Overlord...it's just have to be one older than Dhamon.
But, like I was saying earlier...we can't really take Dhamon's stats at face value anymore from the AoM when comparing those to the Dhamon of Lake of Death. For one thing...he's a helluva lot larger (though still not as large as Sable). So, maybe his age category should be looked at (and possible increased).
Since when is evasion a feat? In D&D I've only ever seen it as a class feature. I suppose Dhamon could have benefitted from a Ring of Evasion.
I guess it's not...I thought it was.
Sable can cast wish ... so I'd say it's a lost cause for Dhamon, unless for some reason Sable had used up her four 9th level spells for the day.
For cryin' out loud...I didn't get anything right. It's only four, spell slots?
Yeah... I suppose realistically...there's no way Sable could have been beaten.
Okay...let's say Dhamon is a Mature adult...which means his breath weapon drains 4 levels (2 if the Reflex save is made...which is highly unlikely for Sable). Now, once it is decided that it will be 4 or 2 levels...is there another save to see if they take effect (I would think not, as that would make that breath weapon basically worthless compared to other dragons as it doesn't do any damage aside from that)...but the write up in both the AoM and the Draconomicon (which are actually identical) are a bit ambiguous about it...nor does it say how long the negative levels last.
The shadow dragon's breath weapon inflicts negative energy levels on the target, which gets a Reflex save for half. Thus, 4 levels or 2 levels. Negative levels have the following effects (taken from the System Reference Document):
–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save . On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
Note that losing a level for a creature is the same as losing a Hit Dice. This isn't the same as dropping an age category, as most dragons can advance in Hit Dice a few times before their effective age category increases.
Cheers,
Cam
The shadow dragon's breath weapon inflicts negative energy levels on the target, which gets a Reflex save for half. Thus, 4 levels or 2 levels. Negative levels have the following effects (taken from the System Reference Document):
–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
Okay...wow...I was way off.
Even on a dragon it's only -5 hit points?
Note that losing a level for a creature is the same as losing a Hit Dice. This isn't the same as dropping an age category, as most dragons can advance in Hit Dice a few times before their effective age category increases.
Yeah, but I figured if it was 4 or 2 HD per attack, that "averages" to one Age category per attack (as the dragons have 3 HD per age category).
Well...after reading this...I'm not even sure a powerful shadow dragon could take down an Overlord.
Sable rising as a wight, huh? now THERE'S a damn cool idea
Are you kidding? I'm surprised WotC let Rabe slip it through that Beryl still holds some sway in Ansalon, there's no way this would fly...
Okay...wow...I was way off.
Even on a dragon it's only -5 hit points?Yeah, but I figured if it was 4 or 2 HD per attack, that "averages" to one Age category per attack (as the dragons have 3 HD per age category).
Well...after reading this...I'm not even sure a powerful shadow dragon could take down an Overlord.
A great wyrm shadow dragon's breath weapon deals 8 negative levels (4 on a successful save). Sable has 43 HD, so 11 minimal hits on her would slay her with negative level loss. Chances are that by the time she's got 10 or so negative levels (-10 on attacks rolls and saves, -3 Age categories) she's going to start failing some reflex saves and take 8 negative levels per shadow breath (assuming she didn't use wish to protect/heal herself from this ability). If Dhamon were a great wyrm shadow dragon it'd be much more realistic a fight. You could even rationalize that the same affliction that affected the Chaos Shadow Dragon (rapid aging) was also affecting Dhamon, and that even though only a year had passed he had gained some age categories since his transformation.
In any case, if Dhamon has the ability to switch between human and dragon form as in Age of Mortals, that rather destroys the point of the whole story.
Surely it was the spell wrought by Ragh and the elven ghost, with Sable's scale and the scroll from the Lake of Death, that weakened Sable and enabled Dhamon to defeat him.
Yeah...and as much as I like Rabe and her work...I thought the ending of that book was truly awful. The spell wasn't explained and the fight was really vague. Here was Dhamon's moment to shine...here was something he had wanted ever since the Window of the Stars...and we didn't get to share it with him. And then he's just gone.
I was not pleased with how it was done.
In any case, if Dhamon has the ability to switch between human and dragon form as in Age of Mortals, that rather destroys the point of the whole story.
Yeah, I found that strange as well...I was under the impression that Jean Rabe wrote that section in the AoM book.
Wait, what? Dhamon died? Did he kill Sable while he was at it? What's Beryl got to do with anything? Dammit!
Hey...I put the warning on the thread title.
I could answer all these questions for you, but it will really spoil the big surprises in Lake of Death. But if you want, I will.
Hey...I put the warning on the thread title.
I could answer all these questions for you, but it will really spoil the big surprises in Lake of Death. But if you want, I will.
Spoil it. For me. Do it.
Cobra Commander wishes it so.
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Well, the book is about Dhamon, naturally. He and Ragh have claimed some of Sable's swamp for their own. But Dhamon has found a crystal ball that claims the answer to his wants is beneath the water of the Nalis Aren. He wishes to be human again. So, he seeks out Feril (who is in Qualinesti fighting against the encroaching goblins and Knights of Nereka) and gets her help. Beneath the waters, Feril finds the remains of Berylinthranox...who is miracuously non-decomposed...and glowing. Basically, her spirit is still there and has cased a lot of the dwarves, elves, and humans who were fighting in Qualinost's last days (both good and evil)...their spirits are forced into service protecting her corpse.
Some spirits in Qualinost are still there just like normal ghosts...but when they come close to Beryl's body, they are essentially taken over. For the record...there was no Medan or Laurana (at least not that we saw).
Well, one of the ghosts claims to have the magic that will save Dhamon. He says, it was a Dragon Overlord scale that caused this...than most likely, it is a Dragon Overlord's scale that can heal this. So Feril, Ragh and Dhamon spend the rest of the book looking for Sable's scales (since it was almost fatal when they tried to remove one of Beryl's).
Long story short...they end up in Sable's lair with the skull totem...find a scale, but discover that Feril has been one of Sable's agents for a while (she has a Black Scale attached to her...see AoM for rules on this). She betray's Dhamon and Ragh just as Sable attacks from under water.
Big battle ensues...Ragh wastes the magic spell that was going to be used to save Dhamon on Feril. Then together they do some other sort of spell that I don't really understand at all...but it apparently weakend Sable enough that Dhamon (along with his negative energy level drain breath weapon) could finally over power Sable and kill her. Unfortunately at the cost of his own life.
