Ethnicities and Ethnic Feats - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ethnicities and Ethnic Feats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Cthulhudrew
Oct 11, 2004 19:21:09 Toying around with the Regions/Regional Feats concept from 3E a bit more, and am trying to work around some of the problems with the "geographic" style of regions that is the standard in Forgotten Realms. The big problem with that, as has been pointed out a couple of times by various people, is that (particularly in the Known World nations) you have large numbers of ethnically diverse peoples within one geographic region, and they defy the "broad" regional classification as a result.

For example, in Glantri alone, if you wanted to be fair to all the various ethnic groups, you'd have to have at least 8 "regions" for humans alone. Contrast that to the Forgotten Realms, where "the Dalelands"- consisting of many different Dales- is considered one region. (Even if you wanted to break that down further- such as the Altumbel region of Aglarond) you'd still be better off than in Glantri, where there is no distinct geographical "cutoff".

As such, I'm combining an idea I had for Clans/Ethnicities on my Twilight of the Dawn site with the Region classification system in the FRPHB. It is based on the "Human Clans" from Oriental adventures- ie, each ethnicity gets its own Class Skill that reflects a talent that is highly valued and taught in that culture (and is a class skill regardless of what class you are). They also have a Favored Class that may or may not be different from the "generic" base race (again, reflecting an area or areas where the culture is more inclined to focus).

I'll post a couple of examples here so I can get some feedback from you guys.

Human Ethnicities

Aalbanese

The Aalbanese hail from the nation of Glantri, living primarily in the nation from which they derive their name. Men and women of Hattian and "common" Alphatian descent merged their bloodlines centuries ago, combining the strong martial traditions of the Hattians with the wizardly teachings of the Alphatians.
Favored Class: Fighter or Wizard. If an Aalbanese character has levels in both classes, only the highest level class is not counted when determining if he suffers an XP penalty.
Class Skill: Spellcraft.
Automatic Languages: Common (Thyatian), Hattian or Alphatian (choose one).
Bonus Languages: Alphatian, Hattian, Traladaran, Elvish (Alfheim dialect), Elvish (Belcadiz dialect), Flaemish, Sylaire.
Ethnic Feats: Discipline, Militia, Spellcasting Prodigy
Bonus Equipment: (A) Banded mail*, or (B) wand of magic missile (CL 1st, 20 charges)

Elvish Clans

Belcadiz

Glantri is the exclusive home to the Belcadiz clan of elves. These swarthy skinned elves are reknowned for their fiery tempers. Whether they be lovers or fighters, they pursue their passions with gusto.
Favored Class: Fighter.
Class Skill: Bluff.
Automatic Languages: Common (Thyatian), Elvish (Belcadiz dialect).
Bonus Languages: Alphatian, Traladaran, Elvish (Alfheim dialect), Flaemish, Sylaire, Ethengarian.
Ethnic Feats: Artist, Bullheaded, Twin Sword Style.
Bonus Equipment: (A) Longsword*, or rapier*, or (B) Scroll of two 2nd level spells.

Just a couple of examples, and definitely subject to change (the equipment, for one, may not remain the same, nor the feats). Let me know what you guys think!
#2
chimpman
Oct 11, 2004 21:49:53 I like these ideas, and although I have to study the two examples you provided in more depth I think they both work... at least they feel right. I agree that a "regional" feat might be a little too generic to work, and I like the idea of ethnic feats. Let me also propose the similar idea of national feats.

Take the Empire of Thyatis for example. This is almost the opposite of the example you cited with Glantri. Here you have a monolithic culture that embraces (as well as shares) new ideas among its many component cultures. In theory you could have a Thyatian, a Nauri, and a Hinterlander all enrolled in the Thyatian legion. In this case they might be considered to be "legionaires of Thyatis" as opposed to members of their respective ethnic groups. I can see characters forsaking their heritage (and the feats associated with that) in order to adopt some wider nationalistic ideals (and the feats associated with that).

Take the HW for example. In the HW I would consider (with very few exceptions) ethnic feats to be fairly synonomous with national feats (because the SoP forces that kind of thing). On the outer world it's not so cut and dry. Hmmm... interesting idea. Perhaps the SoP "forces" a HW character to take an ethnic/national feat...

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that we should have it both ways. I'm just not sure exactly how you do that.
#3
Hugin
Oct 11, 2004 22:02:07 Don't have a lot of time right at the moment, but I really like this idea. I think it's cool to be able to create distinctions among the ethinic groups to help them become, well, more distinct.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 12, 2004 3:55:14 As much as I like creating small differences to make each character and each race (or in this case belonging to a certain ethnicity) unique, I wouldn't recommend you to go on with having preferred classes for humans, because this way you alter one of the key features of the "human race" in comparison to all other playable races. One of the best advantages of humans is that they are versatile and don't have to be restricted by birth to a specific class as their preferred class. OTOH they lack some magical bonuses and defenses and some characteristics bonuses that other races have. If you cancel the "no preferred class" feature, Andrew, you seriously risk unbalancing them...

I'm also against giving them two languages as start. I certainly would give them their ethnic group dialect (ex. Averoignese dialect for averoignese characters) but I wouldn't give a character the Common (Thyatian) tongue if he had an Int. score lower than 11 for example, cause that would mean he wouldn't have had a chance to learn it naturally (he would have to use a skill to have it).
I also never quite understood the idea of "bonus languages": to me they are totally useless. A PC who wants to know a certain language simply comes out with an explanation for having learnt it and that's it. :p

These are my only points (...for now...) ;)
#5
spellweaver
Oct 12, 2004 5:01:11 Hmm, seems to me these issues have been touched upon before in the Knowledge thread:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=258376

and the Regions of Mystara thread:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3701420#post3701420

I like the ideas for ethical feats presented and am going to give it some more thought. I agree with DM though, that humans should keep the "no preferred class" bonus.

And, once more, I just want to mention that the Lighthouse has a great list of cultural feats you might want to look at:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/

:-) Jesper
#6
Cthulhudrew
Oct 13, 2004 4:03:39
As much as I like creating small differences to make each character and each race (or in this case belonging to a certain ethnicity) unique, I wouldn't recommend you to go on with having preferred classes for humans, because this way you alter one of the key features of the "human race" in comparison to all other playable races. One of the best advantages of humans is that they are versatile and don't have to be restricted by birth to a specific class as their preferred class. OTOH they lack some magical bonuses and defenses and some characteristics bonuses that other races have. If you cancel the "no preferred class" feature, Andrew, you seriously risk unbalancing them...

Well, Ethnicities, like Regions (in FRCS) are strictly optional- no one is required to take one. Anyone could just play a "generic" human (or "generic" elf, or what have you). Choosing an Ethnicity/Region simply grounds your character with a bit more background and development, as well as allowing them access to feats, equipment, etc. that they otherwise wouldn't get.

Pinning them down to a particular class as their Favored Class doesn't, to me, seem like a major disadvantage, as I'd imagine players would choose ethnicities that fit the background of the type of character they'd like to play- ie, a player inclined to play a warrior type is more likely IMO to choose say, a Thyatian ethnic background than a Minrothad ethnic background.

That being said, I can certainly see where a sense of resistance to the idea can come from and sympathize with the point.

I'm also against giving them two languages as start. I certainly would give them their ethnic group dialect (ex. Averoignese dialect for averoignese characters) but I wouldn't give a character the Common (Thyatian) tongue if he had an Int. score lower than 11 for example, cause that would mean he wouldn't have had a chance to learn it naturally (he would have to use a skill to have it).

I tend to agree with you on this point- I just happened to pick as an exampe one exception to the rule. I think it would apply only in certain situations- Thyatians, for example, are likely to be mono-lingual due to cultural considerations. On the other hand, I could see people who grow up in mixed-heritage families (such as the Alphatian/Thyatian Aalbanese) learning both languages growing up. Sort of like many Mexican-Americans. But generally, yeah, I think the same as you about the languages.

I also never quite understood the idea of "bonus languages": to me they are totally useless. A PC who wants to know a certain language simply comes out with an explanation for having learnt it and that's it.

I think it's just further guidelines of the sorts of languages the character is likely to have picked up- fleshing out the background a bit more (which is the whole point of the regions). They aren't barred from learning any language they spend the skill ranks for, but the "Bonus Languages" are the most likely to have been learned. I think the term "Bonus" is sort of misleading, as they aren't free, but that's another point entirely...
#7
havard
Oct 13, 2004 8:58:58 I think this is an interesting idea Andrew,
It could solve the whole problem of regional feats and Mystara. We could create ethnicities on many levels, so that Thyatian, Glantrian, Darokinian, Ylarii, Karameikan etc could be nation-level ethnicities, and include local-based ethnicities like the ones you propose. Since you can only pick one, the player should select the ethnicity his character mainly defines himself as when the game begins. In the real world it is also a fact that some people define themselves primarily by nationality, while others may define themselves based primarily on a local level, or on a transnational level.

Some examples:
Local, Mystara: Vyalian, Traladaran
Local, Real World: Basque, Bavarian
National, Mystara: Darokinian, Glantrian, Karameikan
National, RW: Scottish, French, German
Transnational, Mystara: Thyatian, Alphatian, NACE,
Transnational, RW: American, European, British

I assume this is more or less where you are going with this?

If so, I propose that we create the nation-based ethnicities first, that is based on each of the known world countries, aswell as the Empire ones, and then go onto lower local levels.

I sympathize with Marco's criticsm, but since you state that the ethinicties are optional, I agree that it is not so much a problem. I don't really find that giving some people an extra free language makes things too imbalancing.

Håvard

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cthulhudrew Oct 11, 2004 19:21:09	Toying around with the Regions/Regional Feats concept from 3E a bit more, and am trying to work around some of the problems with the "geographic" style of regions that is the standard in Forgotten Realms. The big problem with that, as has been pointed out a couple of times by various people, is that (particularly in the Known World nations) you have large numbers of ethnically diverse peoples within one geographic region, and they defy the "broad" regional classification as a result. For example, in Glantri alone, if you wanted to be fair to all the various ethnic groups, you'd have to have at least 8 "regions" for humans alone. Contrast that to the Forgotten Realms, where "the Dalelands"- consisting of many different Dales- is considered one region. (Even if you wanted to break that down further- such as the Altumbel region of Aglarond) you'd still be better off than in Glantri, where there is no distinct geographical "cutoff". As such, I'm combining an idea I had for Clans/Ethnicities on my Twilight of the Dawn site with the Region classification system in the FRPHB. It is based on the "Human Clans" from Oriental adventures- ie, each ethnicity gets its own Class Skill that reflects a talent that is highly valued and taught in that culture (and is a class skill regardless of what class you are). They also have a Favored Class that may or may not be different from the "generic" base race (again, reflecting an area or areas where the culture is more inclined to focus). I'll post a couple of examples here so I can get some feedback from you guys. Human Ethnicities Aalbanese The Aalbanese hail from the nation of Glantri, living primarily in the nation from which they derive their name. Men and women of Hattian and "common" Alphatian descent merged their bloodlines centuries ago, combining the strong martial traditions of the Hattians with the wizardly teachings of the Alphatians. Favored Class: Fighter or Wizard. If an Aalbanese character has levels in both classes, only the highest level class is not counted when determining if he suffers an XP penalty. Class Skill: Spellcraft. Automatic Languages: Common (Thyatian), Hattian or Alphatian (choose one). Bonus Languages: Alphatian, Hattian, Traladaran, Elvish (Alfheim dialect), Elvish (Belcadiz dialect), Flaemish, Sylaire. Ethnic Feats: Discipline, Militia, Spellcasting Prodigy Bonus Equipment: (A) Banded mail, or (B) wand of magic missile* (CL 1st, 20 charges) Elvish Clans Belcadiz Glantri is the exclusive home to the Belcadiz clan of elves. These swarthy skinned elves are reknowned for their fiery tempers. Whether they be lovers or fighters, they pursue their passions with gusto. Favored Class: Fighter. Class Skill: Bluff. Automatic Languages: Common (Thyatian), Elvish (Belcadiz dialect). Bonus Languages: Alphatian, Traladaran, Elvish (Alfheim dialect), Flaemish, Sylaire, Ethengarian. Ethnic Feats: Artist, Bullheaded, Twin Sword Style. Bonus Equipment: (A) Longsword, or rapier, or (B) Scroll of two 2nd level spells. Just a couple of examples, and definitely subject to change (the equipment, for one, may not remain the same, nor the feats). Let me know what you guys think!
#2 chimpman Oct 11, 2004 21:49:53	I like these ideas, and although I have to study the two examples you provided in more depth I think they both work... at least they feel right. I agree that a "regional" feat might be a little too generic to work, and I like the idea of ethnic feats. Let me also propose the similar idea of national feats. Take the Empire of Thyatis for example. This is almost the opposite of the example you cited with Glantri. Here you have a monolithic culture that embraces (as well as shares) new ideas among its many component cultures. In theory you could have a Thyatian, a Nauri, and a Hinterlander all enrolled in the Thyatian legion. In this case they might be considered to be "legionaires of Thyatis" as opposed to members of their respective ethnic groups. I can see characters forsaking their heritage (and the feats associated with that) in order to adopt some wider nationalistic ideals (and the feats associated with that). Take the HW for example. In the HW I would consider (with very few exceptions) ethnic feats to be fairly synonomous with national feats (because the SoP forces that kind of thing). On the outer world it's not so cut and dry. Hmmm... interesting idea. Perhaps the SoP "forces" a HW character to take an ethnic/national feat... Anyway, I guess I'm saying that we should have it both ways. I'm just not sure exactly how you do that.
#3 Hugin Oct 11, 2004 22:02:07	Don't have a lot of time right at the moment, but I really like this idea. I think it's cool to be able to create distinctions among the ethinic groups to help them become, well, more distinct.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 12, 2004 3:55:14	As much as I like creating small differences to make each character and each race (or in this case belonging to a certain ethnicity) unique, I wouldn't recommend you to go on with having preferred classes for humans, because this way you alter one of the key features of the "human race" in comparison to all other playable races. One of the best advantages of humans is that they are versatile and don't have to be restricted by birth to a specific class as their preferred class. OTOH they lack some magical bonuses and defenses and some characteristics bonuses that other races have. If you cancel the "no preferred class" feature, Andrew, you seriously risk unbalancing them... I'm also against giving them two languages as start. I certainly would give them their ethnic group dialect (ex. Averoignese dialect for averoignese characters) but I wouldn't give a character the Common (Thyatian) tongue if he had an Int. score lower than 11 for example, cause that would mean he wouldn't have had a chance to learn it naturally (he would have to use a skill to have it). I also never quite understood the idea of "bonus languages": to me they are totally useless. A PC who wants to know a certain language simply comes out with an explanation for having learnt it and that's it. :p These are my only points (...for now...) ;)
#5 spellweaver Oct 12, 2004 5:01:11	Hmm, seems to me these issues have been touched upon before in the Knowledge thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=258376 and the Regions of Mystara thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3701420#post3701420 I like the ideas for ethical feats presented and am going to give it some more thought. I agree with DM though, that humans should keep the "no preferred class" bonus. And, once more, I just want to mention that the Lighthouse has a great list of cultural feats you might want to look at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/ :-) Jesper
#6 Cthulhudrew Oct 13, 2004 4:03:39	As much as I like creating small differences to make each character and each race (or in this case belonging to a certain ethnicity) unique, I wouldn't recommend you to go on with having preferred classes for humans, because this way you alter one of the key features of the "human race" in comparison to all other playable races. One of the best advantages of humans is that they are versatile and don't have to be restricted by birth to a specific class as their preferred class. OTOH they lack some magical bonuses and defenses and some characteristics bonuses that other races have. If you cancel the "no preferred class" feature, Andrew, you seriously risk unbalancing them... Well, Ethnicities, like Regions (in FRCS) are strictly optional- no one is required to take one. Anyone could just play a "generic" human (or "generic" elf, or what have you). Choosing an Ethnicity/Region simply grounds your character with a bit more background and development, as well as allowing them access to feats, equipment, etc. that they otherwise wouldn't get. Pinning them down to a particular class as their Favored Class doesn't, to me, seem like a major disadvantage, as I'd imagine players would choose ethnicities that fit the background of the type of character they'd like to play- ie, a player inclined to play a warrior type is more likely IMO to choose say, a Thyatian ethnic background than a Minrothad ethnic background. That being said, I can certainly see where a sense of resistance to the idea can come from and sympathize with the point. I'm also against giving them two languages as start. I certainly would give them their ethnic group dialect (ex. Averoignese dialect for averoignese characters) but I wouldn't give a character the Common (Thyatian) tongue if he had an Int. score lower than 11 for example, cause that would mean he wouldn't have had a chance to learn it naturally (he would have to use a skill to have it). I tend to agree with you on this point- I just happened to pick as an exampe one exception to the rule. I think it would apply only in certain situations- Thyatians, for example, are likely to be mono-lingual due to cultural considerations. On the other hand, I could see people who grow up in mixed-heritage families (such as the Alphatian/Thyatian Aalbanese) learning both languages growing up. Sort of like many Mexican-Americans. But generally, yeah, I think the same as you about the languages. I also never quite understood the idea of "bonus languages": to me they are totally useless. A PC who wants to know a certain language simply comes out with an explanation for having learnt it and that's it. I think it's just further guidelines of the sorts of languages the character is likely to have picked up- fleshing out the background a bit more (which is the whole point of the regions). They aren't barred from learning any language they spend the skill ranks for, but the "Bonus Languages" are the most likely to have been learned. I think the term "Bonus" is sort of misleading, as they aren't free, but that's another point entirely...
#7 havard Oct 13, 2004 8:58:58	I think this is an interesting idea Andrew, It could solve the whole problem of regional feats and Mystara. We could create ethnicities on many levels, so that Thyatian, Glantrian, Darokinian, Ylarii, Karameikan etc could be nation-level ethnicities, and include local-based ethnicities like the ones you propose. Since you can only pick one, the player should select the ethnicity his character mainly defines himself as when the game begins. In the real world it is also a fact that some people define themselves primarily by nationality, while others may define themselves based primarily on a local level, or on a transnational level. Some examples: Local, Mystara: Vyalian, Traladaran Local, Real World: Basque, Bavarian National, Mystara: Darokinian, Glantrian, Karameikan National, RW: Scottish, French, German Transnational, Mystara: Thyatian, Alphatian, NACE, Transnational, RW: American, European, British I assume this is more or less where you are going with this? If so, I propose that we create the nation-based ethnicities first, that is based on each of the known world countries, aswell as the Empire ones, and then go onto lower local levels. I sympathize with Marco's criticsm, but since you state that the ethinicties are optional, I agree that it is not so much a problem. I don't really find that giving some people an extra free language makes things too imbalancing. Håvard