The first point I'd like to make is when is the last time you've seen a Draconian around? There was a couple in WoS, one Sivak in Dark Thane (whose story required a shape shifter) but nothing since then. There was a couple in recent short story anthologies, but there has been dragonspawn in those too. Key of Destiny had a Dragonspawn as the biggest and final villain, but I don't think it had a major Draconian NPC.
So Dragonspawn aren't being ignored in favour of Draconians.
Now is anyone particularly have any animosity to Dragonspawn? I certainly don't, but the thing that all of us have in common (and as even the 5th Age fans admitted they themselves do) is that we don't use the dragonspawn as originally presented. Dark Thralls, Dragon Vassals, and Dragon Abominations have all made it into the Bestiary of Krynn. I myself am planning to have dragonspawn of all 10 dragons in my game. Simply put, I use my dragonspawn the way other settings use half-dragons, as the aides, commanders, and elite soldiers of Draconic tyrants. I also use the Dragonspawn as an excuse to bring in the DMG prestige class "Dragon Disciple" and the Draconomicon's "Dragon Kith"
So Lorrinar has an elite guard of half-dragon minions which he created to serve him, as my excuse to ressurect the dragonarmy flavour, with the dragonspawn as Dragonarmy officers and commanders. Sunrise has started a new order of dragon kith golden knights in his "Castle of the Sky" in Southern Ergoth, where he has a sorcerer serves as his dragon disciple and aide (though he isn't Ulin).
I use dragonspawn abominations all the time, though I hold all humanoids and monstrous humanoids can be regular half-dragon spawn.
Now if you saw Dragonspawn being used this way, would you object? If not, I imagine that most of what I'm using up here will probably be done by most Dragonlance DM's. Do you have any other suggestions?
As for the humanoid (ie non-human) conversion into dragonspawn, that would be mucking with the rules a bit, as it was spelled out that any mortal, non pure human used resulted in dragon abominations when the transformation was attempted.
As for KoD, there are several random encounter possibilities with dragonspawn throughout the Peak of Malys, aside from the final encounter. There is also an ogre dragon abomination encounter in the Peak as well. On the path to Hurim, there is a random encounter featuring 2 draconians. There are also sligs in the Peak of Malys. The only draconic critters not covered in the module are bakali, kobolds and noble draconians.
So Dragonspawn aren't being ignored in favour of Draconians.
I'm not sure anyone ever said that...I know I didn't.
Now if you saw Dragonspawn being used this way, would you object? If not, I imagine that most of what I'm using up here will probably be done by most Dragonlance DM's. Do you have any other suggestions?
Some of us aren't lucky enough to have a Dragonlance game going...where where our own little wants and nuances can be lived out and enjoyed. Unfortunately, some of us can only live in Dragonlance through the novels.
I'm looking at starting to have them seek others of their kind and try to build a small society together. All of them would be hunted, so they could ban together. Also my dragonspawn can procreate, so I'm hoping to start having dragonspawn have little kiddies around. Again, there are female and males.. so why wouldnt they be able to? I'm thinking about having these little bands try to incoporate into Teyr, seeing if they can participate in what the draconians have. At first the draconians will probably be distrustful and wary, but after sending an emmissary(whi is probably rebuffed), a pack of them come bearing small dragonspawn and the draconians realize that they are a lot alike. They both didnt have choices in what they became.
So I dunno. Too often it annoys me in worlds where people use "evil races" as dumb, primitive, cannon fodder. In too many worlds orcs are so dumb its not funny. In Dragonlance, I never see that much civilized Ogres and it annoys the crap out of me. In my Dragonlance the Ogres build grand cities also, they dont wander around in just tribes hunting and pillaging stupidely. They arent *as* intelligent as humans and elves, but some are, and the rest have enough that they arent seen as just a little better than animals. Where am I getting with this.. well.. I hate it when someone says a race was just kind of made to be killed off. And I'm not talking about the dragonarmies making the draconians. I'm talking about the design team making the dragonspawn, or at least thats the gist of it I got from Dragonhelm. Personally, I like see more depth go into the races and I think the dragonspawn have a lot to offer, especially with their "former lives" and "current lives". If this race would have been explored, there would have absouletly been no need for noble draconians (and I personally hope they never end up in a novel
). We really dont need just a "good" race to balance the "bad" race, because now the draconians are leening towards neutral anyways. The only ones who are supposed to be clear cut(and arent) are elves (good), humans (neutral), and ogres (evil). I say let the draconians and dragonspawn stand together and we have a valid lizard race that sdoesnt seem alien and that allows all sorts of storyline and conflicts to occurr.I like the idea of Dragonspawn to the idea that they don't need to corrupt good dragon eggs to create them. I don't like the idea that they are the same people that they were before though. I also think that Draconians still try to find Good Dragon eggs to make more of their race through black rituals.
Draconians fill the ranks of the "Evil Intelligent Cultists" in my games. The Thulsa Doom types who plot the destruction of the gods of good and the raising of massive armies of demons and undead dragons to destroy the good races are what Draconians do.
They're all far more intelligent than normal human beings could ever hope to be (though Aurak and their replacements in Red Dragonspawn are far moreso with Sivak and Blue Dragonspawn directly beneath them) and thus their plots are powerful along with Earth shattering.
Even Kapak and Bozak are brilliant generals and strategists even if they lack the priest and wizardry power of their leaders.
I do want to keep their numbers small though. Draconians will hide in caves and vast underground lairs because quite soon the horrors they inflict will be so incredibly mind-numbingly evil that if a person finds he is held by a Draconian he is very likely to have his heart explode from terror at what will happen from him. They will be hated and feared everywhere by every race and they will rejoice in that.
And because of that...I'd like to keep their numbers down. Teyr exists...but it's small, and I really wouldn't want it to get much larger. I just don't want either race to die out.
Personally, I wouldn't require a skull totem to create dragonspawn (and I'm not 100% sure that it does in the rules anyway).
I think the way it's handled in Key of Destiny is the right way to go. They are very rare...they're out there...but typically they're rare, and extremely powerful. They should be feared...an encounter with a draconian or a dragonspawn should not be laughed off (which is kinda hard to do because some of them are rather weak...)
Anyway...I like to keep them rare, not on the verge of extinctions...but not as wide spread as, say, goblins.
Oh...and I'd like to keep them as key plot points, too.They both had their time to be wide spread cannon fodder (draconians = War of the Lance; dragonspawn = reign of the Overlords). But now...their encounters should be special, rare, and frightening.
The only Draconians in Solace would be the subject of a lynch mob or widespread screaming. It hasn't been THAT long really since they were objects of terror.
When Margeret had Draconians in Solace.
The only Draconians in Solace would be the subject of a lynch mob or widespread screaming. It hasn't been THAT long really since they were objects of terror.
Yeah...I'm not a big fan of them becoming a working, integrated, accepted part of society. (the main reason I object to having draconians as PCs...LAs or not)
I can also see Draconians as LEADERS in the party when the PCs are dark knights, while it may not be as canon as it once was. I do think most Draconians started as Abishani 'summoned' into bodies of dragon eggs.
The spells were just refined when Takhasis realized that it was seriously depleting her demon supply
Of course, i also had disir and sable and things.
Dragonspawn
The first point I'd like to make is when is the last time you've seen a Draconian around? There was a couple in WoS, one Sivak in Dark Thane (whose story required a shape shifter) but nothing since then. There was a couple in recent short story anthologies, but there has been dragonspawn in those too. Key of Destiny had a Dragonspawn as the biggest and final villain, but I don't think it had a major Draconian NPC.
So Dragonspawn aren't being ignored in favour of Draconians.
Now is anyone particularly have any animosity to Dragonspawn? I certainly don't, but the thing that all of us have in common (and as even the 5th Age fans admitted they themselves do) is that we don't use the dragonspawn as originally presented. Dark Thralls, Dragon Vassals, and Dragon Abominations have all made it into the Bestiary of Krynn. I myself am planning to have dragonspawn of all 10 dragons in my game. Simply put, I use my dragonspawn the way other settings use half-dragons, as the aides, commanders, and elite soldiers of Draconic tyrants. I also use the Dragonspawn as an excuse to bring in the DMG prestige class "Dragon Disciple" and the Draconomicon's "Dragon Kith"
So Lorrinar has an elite guard of half-dragon minions which he created to serve him, as my excuse to ressurect the dragonarmy flavour, with the dragonspawn as Dragonarmy officers and commanders. Sunrise has started a new order of dragon kith golden knights in his "Castle of the Sky" in Southern Ergoth, where he has a sorcerer serves as his dragon disciple and aide (though he isn't Ulin).
I use dragonspawn abominations all the time, though I hold all humanoids and monstrous humanoids can be regular half-dragon spawn.
Now if you saw Dragonspawn being used this way, would you object? If not, I imagine that most of what I'm using up here will probably be done by most Dragonlance DM's. Do you have any other suggestions?
From what I have read, in The Dhamon Saga, they portray the dragonspawn as some kind of brainless barbarians. I would think that one would want to add more depth to the dragonspawn than just having them be some kind of mindless servants of evil.
Also, I have noticed that there are hardly any draconians in the 5th age. I like the 5th age but it seems as if they tried to get rid of everything that made Dragonlance well Dragonlance.
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I do think most Draconians started as Abishani 'summoned' into bodies of dragon eggs.
The spells were just refined when Takhasis realized that it was seriously depleting her demon supply
That's been retconned out of existence. Dracs are created without abishai/demons/devils/outsiders/etc.
That's been retconned out of existence. Dracs are created without abishai/demons/devils/outsiders/etc.
I mean, it was freaking COOL! It made the Draconians into literal demons on Earth! Pure evil without a trace of good and powerful beings incarnated into mortal bodies to aid the Queen of Darknes' entry and to rule under her.
I see the Draconians as her replacement for Ogres as the "Master Race" if I may make an uncomfortable comparison.
I also note that the Dragonspawn probably start as fairly brainless since they have no memories and only love for the evil creator.
I mean, it was freaking COOL! It made the Draconians into literal demons on Earth! Pure evil without a trace of good and powerful beings incarnated into mortal bodies to aid the Queen of Darknes' entry and to rule under her.
Agreed ... though I can understand why they retconned it. After all, how can you portray dracs as "just like the other races of Krynn" if they've got howling demons for souls. ;)
I also note that the Dragonspawn probably start as fairly brainless since they have no memories and only love for the evil creator.
Here's a shocking statement: Dead overlords = good situation for spawn. As the BoK mentioned, it's possible for spawn who've had their creating overlords killed to become free-willed as a consequence. Some even go beyond that and regain their memories from before their transformation. Can you just imagine the former human canvas artist turned red dragonspawn going back to his old home and trying to put brush to canvas again? Now that's a pretty odd picture. :D
One of my players played a Kapak Barbarian for awhile (before being killed) and he really enjoyed it. But he did learn a lesson when he started getting jipped by everyday people in towns. Some of the towns didnt exactly even want him there and wouldnt let him. Others, like some of the merchant cities, allow anyone.. but they do other things. My player started getting really annoyed when the dwarf weaponsmith took a disliking to him because he didnt exactly like draconians. My player ended up having to try Diplomacy and all sorts of things just so the price wouldnt be outrageous, although he still ended up having to pay more for certain stuff. Also a lot of common people who came across them they had to keep trying to pacify explaining the draconian wouldnt hurt them.
I dont foresee the draconians or dragonspawn as being a "common" thing for awhile, but I'm slowly trying to incorporate them in like so. You can every once in awhile see a draconian at a bar, or doing mercenary work, etc. You arent going to see huge congregations of them because I dont think they've had time to breed long enough to be any big numbers.
My dragonspawn PC has only been playing with us off and on. Now he's back here so will be playing on a permanent basis. He's going to get a realization when he sees how people react and it will be a neat process to see how he handles stuff. As I said before, I want them to become a fullfledged race eventually, so its all good for me.
My campaigns are so diverse that I see a lot of different things come across. I see a lot of people who run "good only" campaigns, restricted races campaigns, etc.. and thats cool. In my campaign though anything can happen.. and my PC's have free reign to do whatever they want. One of my players is even contemplating making up a Unicorn who takes monk levels because she likes them so much. With unicorns being rare and sometimes hunted by evil, it will be interesting how she pulls it off and what happens. I dunno, I'm big on choices and always looking for new races and classes to use. And I think dragonspawn who retain their old humanity being feared is such a good plothook.
I so much hate races that are just there to be the "evildoers" and "stupid brutes" in people's campaigns. If you only use a race for one simple thing of course you arent going to think very highly of them The one thing that has always made me like Dragonlance is that every race has the capacity for good/neutral/evil. There is no for sure thing anymore. You will see evil in good races and good in evil races. I love it. I hate labeling by saying "well these guys are evil and only does this..". Not enough thought is given to a lot of thigns
But then again everyone likes different things and everyone runs their campaigns differently.Sounded like a good idea up until the dragonspawn of all 10 dragons. I thought the process of creating a dragonspawn was a particularly horrific one to the human involved, and was considered an evil act because of it.
Well I imagine it is extremely painful, plus it does turn you into a literal monster. It would be, I imagine, similar to turning yourself into Ben Grimm aka The Thing.
However, I can't see why it is a moral problem for the dragon if someone does it voluntarily in order to make himself into a more powerful warrior. Taking on some of the dragon's strength in order to help the dragon defend the surrounding lands from the privations of evil.
Of course, this requires a retcon of a few things. I no longer require a draconian's blood in order the make the Dragonspawn process work. I also do not accept Sovereign Press' assertion that you need a dragon totem, for obvious reasons.
As for the humanoid (ie non-human) conversion into dragonspawn, that would be mucking with the rules a bit, as it was spelled out that any mortal, non pure human used resulted in dragon abominations when the transformation was attempted.
Yes, but I want my half-dragon Ogres, dwarves, kender, goblins, kobolds etc. without necessarily turning them into abominations.
I use Dark Thralls for the brainless cannon-fodder spawn and manual labour (as the Aboleth use Skum). I use dragonspawn for the elite commanders and officers, and I use the Dragonspawn Abominations for the Big Bad Monsters.
Of course, this requires a retcon of a few things. I no longer require a draconian's blood in order the make the Dragonspawn process work. I also do not accept Sovereign Press' assertion that you need a dragon totem, for obvious reasons.
I guess you could technically have the dragonspawn created from the dragon's tears. I think that was what Khellendros originally did when he created the first dragonspawn. Malys spied in on him at an inopportune moment and learned about the dragonspawn, then experimented with creating them herself, but used her blood instead and made them stronger IIRC.
I just assume that through practice and experimentation the dragons just got better at it since the days when the Dragon Overlords first attempted it. So it isn't really a retcon.... ;)
Yeah, I use a ritual involving blood and scales.
I just assume that through practice and experimentation the dragons just got better at it since the days when the Dragon Overlords first attempted it. So it isn't really a retcon.... ;)
I also like the idea of being able to create dragonspawn without the use of a dragon totem. I've used this very idea in my group's campaign. They befriended a Kender on a slaver ship. They later ran into that Kender and found out he was really a brass dragon in disguise that was trying to covertly thwart the machinations of a big blue dragon in the area that was collecting different specimens of humanoids for dragonspawn experimentation.
Kind of like Sentinnels from the X men comics
Say Beryl goes through the process of turning an elf into a spwn. However when the process is completed the elf is still an elf.
Well, all non-humans become abominations after going through the spawn transformation process.
At any rate, a better choice for this type of experimenting would have been Sable, who DID try doing things. Not that anybody cared - she was just another brainless, overgrown lizard.
Kind of like Sentinnels from the X men comics
The Sentinels have evolved quite over the years. But spawn, originally, looked decided more like humans than recent art has portrayed - they could pass as humans at a distance better than draconians ever could.
The Sentinels have evolved quite over the years. But spawn, originally, looked decided more like humans than recent art has portrayed - they could pass as humans at a distance better than draconians ever could.
Huh? As I recall, from their first appearance in the DoNA trilogy, they actually looked more draconian than human. It's only now with KoD that they've been given a more human look, though still decidedly reptilian.
Huh? As I recall, from their first appearance in the DoNA trilogy, they actually looked more draconian than human. It's only now with KoD that they've been given a more human look, though still decidedly reptilian.
I'm recalling stuff I've read more recently, which includes the LotL newsletter and some SAGA material.
As for the cover of KoD, that looks like a demon. :P
I was referring to, I think they were called "prime sentinels" led by Bastion like 7 years back, they keep all the human characteristics and acted like every day people, then with a certain trigger they morph into killing machines. I suggested elves only becuase they age slower so if the trigger is the Overlords domain returning to normal, who knows how long that would take. But sable would have better choice