We now have new possibilities for roles at the Citadel, plus some older roles that have yet to be developed into 3rd edition. Clerics will undoubtedly show up at the Citadel with the return of Mishakal, and I could also see the healer from the Miniatures HB being used as well.
I could see things such as a Citadel Healer, or perhaps a Citadel Guardian PrC. Maybe some sort of mediator as well.
So what other types of PrCs would you guys like to see for the Citadel?
You did me one better by describing the mediator prestige class. It makes sense that the Citadel would send out agents to try and diffuse hostile areas. I think this could be a good 3-5 level prestige class. I'd give it abilities like the ones a bard gets for influencing mood, and some calm emotions effects.
My own that I would add is Battlefield Medic. That would be a 5 level prestige class with abilities such as fast movement, an ability that allows them to cast sanctuary at a higher caster level DC, protection from ranged weapons, and moving through threatened areas without getting hit with attacks of opportunity. I don't imagine many characters would take it, but I imagine quite a few of their cohorts will.
I must say I don't like the idea of Mishakal becoming more militant. Kiri-Jolith was literally born to be the embodiment of divine wrath. Let him have his moment in the sun.
So it would be fully in character for a cleric of Mishakal to take up arms against certain monstrous foes, while delegating the task of battle between more "normal" races to her son.
An adaptation of the Citadel Mystic is a good idea though, and one I wondered about since many new clerics of Mishakal are apparently former mystics. Do they lose their PrC levels when they undergo Epiphany or simply convert them into cleric levels?
The Heart's Grace and Reputation PrC benefits could still be applicable to a cleric from the Citadel. Other benefits might be an extra Domain, enhanced ability to use to use Healing domain spells, etc.
A more militant PrC might be the previously mentioned Battlefield Healer (a great idea) or some kind of undead slayer.
Maybe if Mishakal gains a Divine Rank as her role expands she can pickup the Repose domain and adopt a stronger counter-position to Chemosh, not only in life but in afterlife?
Well I think we can assume from the lack of response over the day that the Citadel of Light is kind of a one trick pony when it comes to character roles. People are nice and they heal people there right?
Yeah, the Citadel Mystic sort of comes across as the mystic version of a cleric of Mishakal. Oftentimes, they’re only seen as healers, and not much else.
I think there can be some good role-playing possibilities for those who don’t subscribe to hack-and-slash games. Citadel mystics and clerics can be advisors, mediators, healers, and activists for peace. They make excellent teachers as well.
There may be a tendency to think of Citadel characters as being stuck in the Citadel. This is no more true of them than it is of the Wizards of High Sorcery.
Any thoughts on this? How else can we expand upon the roles of the Citadel of Light?
Any thoughts on this? How else can we expand upon the roles of the Citadel of Light?
I'd do a series of about 5-6 5-level PrC's focusing on specific aspects of the Citadel's attendees.
Citadel Ambassadors (suggested by you, DH) would focus on diplomacy and creating relations with other nations and rulers. Their class abilities would focus on things like comptence bonuses to Diplomacy checks, detecting alignment, social spells, and even channeling their spells slots into calming effects.
Citadel Missionaries seek out potential candidates. Their class abilities woud allow them to sense mystic potential in a person, flexibility in shaping their spells, a firm belief in the self used to empower their magic, and the ability to boost another's mystic caster level from time to time.
Citadel Guardians have only some small mystic training. Their focus is instead on the protection of traveling mystics or as warriors on errand for the Citadel. Their class abilities would focus on defending mystics, using spell slots to beef up attacks, and damaging foes of the citadel.
Citadel Paragons are the faithful elite of the citadel - they have such a powerful inner faith in themselves that they can achieve otherwise impossible tasks with mysticism. Their class abilities allow them to expend hit points to beef up spells beyond normal, raise or lower their or another's caster level, apply metamagics for free by gaining a select number of slots or sacrificing a permanent slot or two.
Citadel Purists devote themselves to a single particular domain and beef up that domain's abilities, spells, and benefits considerable at the cost of being penalized in every other domain.
Citadel Battlefaiths are warrior-mystics, skilled in using mysticism for defensive purposes (similar in some ways to the War Mage - one of my all-time favorite PrC's). Their class abilities allow them to ramp up defensive and offensive spells, expand their spell ranges, and increase damage and healing potentials- possibly by class level.
These are just a few ideas. There's tons more where that came from. ;)
Citadel Purists devote themselves to a single particular domain and beef up that domain's abilities, spells, and benefits considerable at the cost of being penalized in every other domain.
I actually thought about this myself as a prestige class, though I thought about mystics in general. I called this concept "the incarnate" because the design philosophy was really going to emphasize the fact that the mystic had become the archetype for a particular domain. So they would have some sort of physical and spiritual transformation into the domain they selected.
So a person with the war domain would be a juggernaut of martial fury like Ares, the Sun domain a radiant Apollo or Ra figure, the Dreams domain a ethereal type creature etc.
Of course, I have no idea how this could be even remotely possible to do in the rules. Any rulesmiths who have some ideas out there... let me know.
I actually thought about this myself as a prestige class, though I thought about mystics in general. I called this concept "the incarnate" because the design philosophy was really going to emphasize the fact that the mystic had become the archetype for a particular domain. So they would have some sort of physical and spiritual transformation into the domain they selected.
So a person with the war domain would be a juggernaut of martial fury like Ares, the Sun domain a radiant Apollo or Ra figure, the Dreams domain a ethereal type creature etc.
Of course, I have no idea how this could be even remotely possible to do in the rules. Any rulesmiths who have some ideas out there... let me know.
Rules on them would be quite simple, really. In fact, as I previously stated, I'd just narrow them all down to 5 level PrC's for ease of design and comfort.
And... all right. I admit it. After doing some d20 Modern work, I'm very much into the 5 level PrC cap. Don't much care for 10 level PrC's anymore. But I know, I know... this is D&D. Sue me.
I'll even pitch them with you one at a time right here on the boards if you like. Which one would you like to start with?
Citadel Ambassadors (suggested by you, DH) would focus on diplomacy and creating relations with other nations and rulers. Their class abilities would focus on things like comptence bonuses to Diplomacy checks, detecting alignment, social spells, and even channeling their spells slots into calming effects.
That sounds pretty cool. The Master Ambassador sorta fills this slot, but it could work if you gave it some really cool class abilities.
Citadel Missionaries seek out potential candidates. Their class abilities woud allow them to sense mystic potential in a person, flexibility in shaping their spells, a firm belief in the self used to empower their magic, and the ability to boost another's mystic caster level from time to time.
That sounds awesome! To my knowledge, there aren't really any missionary-type prestige classes in *ANY* D&D book, so I think one for the Citadel would go great.
Citadel Guardians have only some small mystic training. Their focus is instead on the protection of traveling mystics or as warriors on errand for the Citadel. Their class abilities would focus on defending mystics, using spell slots to beef up attacks, and damaging foes of the citadel.
Another good one. Would this have its own spell list, in the style of the Kender Nightstalker, or simply have a couple of +1 to mystic spells?
Citadel Paragons are the faithful elite of the citadel - they have such a powerful inner faith in themselves that they can achieve otherwise impossible tasks with mysticism. Their class abilities allow them to expend hit points to beef up spells beyond normal, raise or lower their or another's caster level, apply metamagics for free by gaining a select number of slots or sacrificing a permanent slot or two.
Sounds good.
Citadel Purists devote themselves to a single particular domain and beef up that domain's abilities, spells, and benefits considerable at the cost of being penalized in every other domain.
This sounds cool, but how would it be handled?
Citadel Battlefaiths are warrior-mystics, skilled in using mysticism for defensive purposes (similar in some ways to the War Mage - one of my all-time favorite PrC's). Their class abilities allow them to ramp up defensive and offensive spells, expand their spell ranges, and increase damage and healing potentials- possibly by class level.
A Mystic War Priest?! Awesome!
These are just a few ideas. There's tons more where that came from. ;)
Keep 'em coming!
Citadel Ambassadors (suggested by you, DH) would focus on diplomacy and creating relations with other nations and rulers. Their class abilities would focus on things like comptence bonuses to Diplomacy checks, detecting alignment, social spells, and even channeling their spells slots into calming effects.
You know, I wonder if multiclassing with the master ambassador would do the trick just as well.
Citadel Missionaries seek out potential candidates. Their class abilities woud allow them to sense mystic potential in a person, flexibility in shaping their spells, a firm belief in the self used to empower their magic, and the ability to boost another's mystic caster level from time to time.
This could work either for clerics or mystics, actually. I like this idea, as it gives a person a reason for wandering Ansalon.
Citadel Guardians have only some small mystic training. Their focus is instead on the protection of traveling mystics or as warriors on errand for the Citadel. Their class abilities would focus on defending mystics, using spell slots to beef up attacks, and damaging foes of the citadel.
I like this. I was a bit uncertain on having them cast spells, but perhaps they just need their own spell list - something we haven't seen too much of in DL.
Citadel Purists devote themselves to a single particular domain and beef up that domain's abilities, spells, and benefits considerable at the cost of being penalized in every other domain.
I could see this for mystics.
Citadel Battlefaiths are warrior-mystics, skilled in using mysticism for defensive purposes (similar in some ways to the War Mage - one of my all-time favorite PrC's). Their class abilities allow them to ramp up defensive and offensive spells, expand their spell ranges, and increase damage and healing potentials- possibly by class level.
I'm not sure I like the idea of the Citadel clerics and mystics being taught the ways of battle. Then again, Mishakal is more militant. Hrm...
I'm not sure I like the idea of the Citadel clerics and mystics being taught the ways of battle. Then again, Mishakal is more militant. Hrm...
Mystics might revere Mishakal, but they don't worship her. They never did, never have to. They can do anything they please, get as militant as they wish, and the Gods can't do squat.
Mystics might revere Mishakal, but they don't worship her. They never did, never have to. They can do anything they please, get as militant as they wish, and the Gods can't do squat.
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Gods can't do squat. They could do plenty. Look what happened the last time a divine spellcaster got a wild hair up his rear.
As to Citadel PrCs, just like every other class(like the Monks of Majere), I don't really see the real need for a PrC. The only ones that seem viable are the Citadel Guardian and the Citadel Paragon, at least to me. The others really seem like their roles are better filled by multiclass characters. Then again, the more PrCs the better, I guess.
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Gods can't do squat. They could do plenty. Look what happened the last time a divine spellcaster got a wild hair up his rear.
A divine cleric, yes. Mystics don't rely on the Gods for anything.
As to Citadel PrCs, just like every other class(like the Monks of Majere), I don't really see the real need for a PrC. The only ones that seem viable are the Citadel Guardian and the Citadel Paragon, at least to me. The others really seem like their roles are better filled by multiclass characters. Then again, the more PrCs the better, I guess.
Many of them don't require a PrC. But this topic is more of a For-the-Fun-of-it exercise, so why not? But then again, you never know what's viable or not until you actually sit down and build it and see if it has a purpose.
Many of them don't require a PrC. But this topic is more of a For-the-Fun-of-it exercise, so why not? But then again, you never know what's viable or not until you actually sit down and build it and see if it has a purpose.
Right.
The other thing I'm thinking of too is the idea that there isn't a Citadel prestige class for non-mystics. The way I see the Citadel going, there's going to be clerics and druids there as well. It would be nice to have a PrC to cover them. Adapting the Citadel Mystic just doesn't quite do it for me since that's geared towards mystics.
Oh, and on Citadel Guardians, I'm rethinking the spell progression for the class. Since they could theoretically be clerics or mystics, perhaps it would be better to have that +1 spellcaster level at every other level.
Right.
The other thing I'm thinking of too is the idea that there isn't a Citadel prestige class for non-mystics. The way I see the Citadel going, there's going to be clerics and druids there as well. It would be nice to have a PrC to cover them. Adapting the Citadel Mystic just doesn't quite do it for me since that's geared towards mystics.
Oh, and on Citadel Guardians, I'm rethinking the spell progression for the class. Since they could theoretically be clerics or mystics, perhaps it would be better to have that +1 spellcaster level at every other level.
I'd actually go +1 spellcaster level at 3rd, 6th, and 9th, or 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th. For the way I'm envisioning them, with better prificiencies and hit die, I'd go with the former.
10-level classes represent a more permanent or significant focus in the character which takes them away from their standard class' breadth of ability and into an elite group, membership, order, or profession. This is especially true of concepts that cover a lot of ground or require a lot of experience to gain the higher levels of power.
Legion of Steel characters are very diverse and share some common traits that can be represented by the Steel Legionnaire class, although even then many of the Legionnaires don't have a PrC at all. Conversely, while there are wizards who do not choose to take the wizard of High Sorcery PrC after they pass the Test, most will, and the class defines their future more fully than the standard wizard class does.
In the case of the Citadel, the Citadel mystic is an excellent 10-level class concept, but the supplementary classes are more appropriately 5-level classes in general. One imagines taking the Citadel mystic class and branching out further once the initial secrets and lessons are learned into specialized areas - it also means you can max out Citadel mystic and one 5-level Citadel PrC by the time you reach 20th level, usually.
Cheers,
Cam
5-level classes are preferable for concepts that don't represent a significant change of direction in the character that can't otherwise be handled by base classes. They are often representative of special training, focus in a specific character ability or theme, or development of a racial talent or power. They make excellent choices for characters who benefit from their standard classes yet would like to pick up something to complement them.
10-level classes represent a more permanent or significant focus in the character which takes them away from their standard class' breadth of ability and into an elite group, membership, order, or profession. This is especially true of concepts that cover a lot of ground or require a lot of experience to gain the higher levels of power.
Legion of Steel characters are very diverse and share some common traits that can be represented by the Steel Legionnaire class, although even then many of the Legionnaires don't have a PrC at all. Conversely, while there are wizards who do not choose to take the wizard of High Sorcery PrC after they pass the Test, most will, and the class defines their future more fully than the standard wizard class does.
In the case of the Citadel, the Citadel mystic is an excellent 10-level class concept, but the supplementary classes are more appropriately 5-level classes in general. One imagines taking the Citadel mystic class and branching out further once the initial secrets and lessons are learned into specialized areas - it also means you can max out Citadel mystic and one 5-level Citadel PrC by the time you reach 20th level, usually.
Cheers,
Cam
You beat me to the punch. Well said.
I'll add that in this case, 5-level PrC's are more fitting due to the specialized nature of the class concepts. A PrC that is more heavily focused around fewer concepts is better off with fewer levels in order to narrow the abilities and area of expertise of the class. 10-level PrC's are more suited to broader class concepts, ones in which a much more thorough and general path of focus and abilities are the focus.
The other one would be a Citadel Guardian. The Guardians really are sort of a specialized role, where one dedicates their life to defending the Citadel and the inhabitants within.
For the other PrCs we’ve discussed (i.e. missionaries), I would recommend 5-level PrCs to be added on to the base Citadel mystic (and cleric, if that’s ever worked up).
Here’s a question for you guys. Looking at the Citadel Mystic, you can see where it is designed more specifically for the mystic. Now that clerics are also going to be in the mix, I’m curious what abilities you guys think a Citadel cleric should have. I’d imagine they’d get the reputation bonus, but how would they be the same as a Citadel mystic, and how would they be different?
Citadel Guardian
The Citadel Guardian lives a life dedicated to the protection of the Citadel of Light and its attendees. Serving as the guards, enforcers, and bodyguards of the Citadel and its patrons, Citadel Guardians are the miltary arm of the Citadel of Light. Their dedication to the Citadel is paramount and their faith both in themselves and the tenets of the Citadel serves as an ethical pillar in the aesthetic values of the Guardians. While Citadel Guardians are required to be proficient in some small level of mystic knowledge and power, some Citadel Guardians come from those who couldn't pass the Citadel's tests or those whose interest in the pursuit of mystic capability was surpassed by a more martial focus. Fighters, rangers, and mystics all make excellent Citadel Guardians.
While often assigned to serve as bodyguards, a Citadel Guardian's missions often feature a wide variety of adventures. The Citadel is not without its enemies and the Citadel Guardian must always be vigilant in the protection of the Citadel against such foes. Some Guardians are even sent out solo or in groups for matters of espionage; the Citadel, while opposed to political manipulation and subterfuge, understands the value of learning the ideas and potential threats that come from the outside world before it's too late.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
To qualify to become a Citadel Guardian, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any good.
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Saves: Base Will Save +2
Skills: Heal 4 ranks, Survival 2 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells.
Class Skills
The Citadel Guardian's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points per level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
[SIZE=3]All of the following features are class features for the Citadel Guardian prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Citadel Guardians are proficient with all martial weapons.
Spells Per Day: A Citadel Guardian continues their advancement the use of divine magic. Starting at 1stlevel and every odd level thereafter, the Citadel Guardian gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. The Citadel Guardian does not gain any other benefits a character of the former class would except for increased effective level of spellcasting. A Citadel Guardian who had more than one divine spellcasting class must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of spells per day.
Faith of the Heart (Su): At 1st level, a Citadel Guardian hones his defensive awareness of the situations around him. He may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to his armor class. At 3rd level, he may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to saving throws. At 5th level, he may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to his attack and damage rolls. The bonuses last for a number of rounds equal to the character's divine caster level.
Defend the Citadel (Ex): At 2nd level, a Citadel Guardian gains the ability to better protect his charges. The Citadel Guardian selects a single ally within 30 ft. and may add his Dexterity modifier (if positive) to the ally's armor class as a bonus. While the bonus is transferred to a target, the Citadel Guardian does not lose his own Dexterity bonus to armor class. The Citadel Guardian must be able to see the chosen ally in order to use this ability.
Guardian Survival (Ex): At 3rd level, a Citadel Guardian is able to summon tremendous fortitude in times of dire need. Once per day, a Citadel Guardian gains a number of temporary hit points equal to his divine caster level. He may choose to apply the temporary hit points to himself or a single ally within 30 ft. The temporary hit points follow normal rules for temporary hit points (see pg 146 in the Player's Handbook). The hit points last for a number of rounds equal to the Citadel Guardian's divine caster level.[/SIZE]
All right, let's look at another possibility.
Considering mystics and clerics simple healers, regardless of their faith or devotion, is a mistake. Citadel Battlefaiths prove that the power of divine magic is not only potent when it comes to healing, but is just as potent when applied to offensive magic. On the battlefields of Krynn, Citadel battlefaiths work hand in hand with fighters, rangers, knights of all orders and other combat-oriented classes in the pursuit of warfare. Citadel battlefaiths can come from either mystics or clerics; they are taught the offensive practices of honing their divine magics at the Citadel by veteran battlefaiths. However, even the occasional druid has been known to become a Citadel battlefaith as the Citadel has long harbored a great many animism specialists and a great reverence for the unspoiled lands of Krynn.
Their implementation after the War of Souls was done with the knowledge that the Citadel had powerful enemies who might be willing to stop at nothing to destroy the refuge of the mystics and clerics of Mishakal. Thus, supported by the militant of Mishakal's new flock and the more aggressive mystics of the Citadel, the battlefaiths were formed. Focusing on the more extreme properties of both healing and offense, battlefaiths serve as the divine warrior elite of the Citadel's new martial forces.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
To qualify to become a Citadel battlefaith, a character must meet all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any good.
Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Base Save Bonus: Fort +4, Will +4.
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells.
Class Skills
The Citadel battlefaith's class skills (and the key ability for each skill are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana, nature, religion) (Int), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the Citadel battlefaith prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Citadel battlefaiths gain no additional proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Spells Per Day: Citadel battlefaiths continues their advancement in the use of divine magic. Each time the Citadel battlefaith gains a level in this class, he gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. The Citadel battlefaith does not gain any other benefits a character of the former class would except for increased effective level of spellcasting. A Citadel battlefaith who had more than one divine spellcasting class must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of spells per day.
Battlefaith (Su): At 1st level, a Citadel Battlefaith may bolster his offensive and healing spells to more powerful levels. The Citadel battlefaith may choose any spell that directly deals damage or heals to a target with a variable dice numeric (the spell causes damage or healing based on dice rolls). He may expend an existing divine spell slot that is one level higher than the spell being cast and roll 1 additional die when casting the spell (thus a one spell slot higher per 1 additional die of damage or healing ratio). At 3rd level, the Citadel battlefaith may expend a divine spell slot two levels higher and add 2 additional dice with the spell. At 5th level, the Citadel battlefaith may expend a divine spell slot three levels higher and add 3 additional dice with the spell.
Divine Concentration (Ex): At 2nd level it becomes incredibly difficult to force a Citadel battlefaith to break their concentration on their spells. A Citadel battlefaith may add his Wisdom modifier as a morale bonus to any Concentration checks made to resist disrupting spellcasting.
Channel Faith (Su): At 4th level, a Citadel battlefaith is capable of channeling divine energy into a manifestation that can be used in one of several ways once per day. The use of this ability depends on what kind of energy the Citadel battlefaith channels. Former clerics channel divine energy types depending on the alignment of their deity (good channels positive energy, evil channels negative energy, and neutral may choose either). Former mystics and druids may choose what type of energy to channel at will except for ,ystics with the Sun domain who must channel positive energy. The effects of each use of this ability last a number of rounds equal to the Citadel battlefaith's caster level. Activation of this ability is a free action.
Positive: The Citadel battlefaith may add his class levels to all turning or destruction attempts against undead and half of all the damage done with his spells is considered holy.
Negative: The Citadel battlefaith may add his class levels to all rebukes or cammand attempts against undead and half of all the damage done with his spells is considered unholy.
A 'necromantic light' type character. Given the mystic's good nature, I don't think they would go into controlling and/or enslaving the undead, but perhaps they can communicate with spirits, turn undead, etc. Almost like a Kender Nightstalker. Goldmoon communicated with Riverwind using some of the ideas that inspired this subclass. One of Goldmoon's students took this very concept too far, and became a full fledged mystic necromancer. Which brings up another idea....
Mystic enemy- necromancer. The idea here is, the prc uses mystic derived powers for abilities normally granted to followers of Chemosh or Nuitari. We've seen 2 examples of this thus far in the novels. One was Goldmoon's follower that turned against them (forgot his name), the other being Nephera from the Minotaur Wars series.
Mystic class- seer. A special sub class for the mystics that has access to scrying abilities/bonuses. The purpose of this is to see what is going on in the world, or possibly seek out potential students, find dangers and try to diffuse them, etc. This would be warranted, particularly after Beryl and her forces struck the Citadel of light in the past. This concept could potentially be taken towards a more psionic idea, introducing the full spectrum of character classes to Dragonlance since psionics were never mainstream canon character types before.
The mystic guardian idea is really nice. That could be applied to that Gnoll that befriended Goldmoon, so we could have a stat block for him in any supplements that might come out focusing on the mystics.
Rooks, I don't think that the abilities that you have given the Citadel Guardian merit a loss of 2 caster levels. Losing 2 caster levels is a big deal and a class that forced you to lose caster levels better provide something [i]good]/i] to make up for it.
Think about what the Citadel Guardian is, though. Really, they're warriors who defend the Citadel of Light. The old Citadel of Light boxed set hints that they don't even have spellcasting ability. Now, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I would think they would have minimal training as mystics or clerics just due to being around the environment of the Citadel for so long. So in this case, I think the sporadic progression of divine spellcasting ability is warranted.
I would drop the requirement from casting 2nd-level divine spells to 1st-level, to help to better define this, though.
A 'necromantic light' type character. Given the mystic's good nature, I don't think they would go into controlling and/or enslaving the undead, but perhaps they can communicate with spirits, turn undead, etc.
At the Citadel of Light, the study of necromancy was expressly forbidden; necromancy dealing more with animating corpses, etc. However, the practice of spiritualism was okay, that being communicating with the spirits of the undead. There was some concern over the practice, but it generally wasn't considered evil like necromancy is.
A spiritualist PrC may be good, but it would have to offer some special abilities found nowhere else. Honestly, I'm not sure I would go this route with the kender nightstalker already in place.
Mystic enemy- necromancer. The idea here is, the prc uses mystic derived powers for abilities normally granted to followers of Chemosh or Nuitari. We've seen 2 examples of this thus far in the novels. One was Goldmoon's follower that turned against them (forgot his name), the other being Nephera from the Minotaur Wars series.
Do you mean Mina?
There was a role in Citadel of Light called a Citadel Renegade, or something to that effect. I could easily see coming up with a villain who once studied at the Citadel, but turned against his fellow mystics. Perhaps he turns to the worship of Chemosh and becomes a cleric, or becomes a powerful mystic necromancer.
Mystic class- seer. A special sub class for the mystics that has access to scrying abilities/bonuses. The purpose of this is to see what is going on in the world, or possibly seek out potential students, find dangers and try to diffuse them, etc.
A mystic seer would be a neat idea, and one that doesn't have to be limited to the Citadel.
Rooks, I don't think that the abilities that you have given the Citadel Guardian merit a loss of 2 caster levels. Losing 2 caster levels is a big deal and a class that forced you to lose caster levels better provide something [i]good]/i] to make up for it. And frankly, those abilities just aren't worth it. The Radiant Servant of Pelor advances turning, gets 2 good saves, advances spell casting at every level and has a ton of other abilities. Same with the Sacred Exorcist. And many other divine prestige classes grant full caster progression and cool abilities, sacrificing only turning advancement. So, if I were you, I'd add those 2 caster levels back.
But you didn't say it! You didn't say it!
Ok, seriously, the beer buzz is long gone now and I'm coherent.
You raise some interesting points. It's hard to compare because I don't think I have access to that PrC (Complete Divine, correct?). I'll say that there is a chance that the Radiant Servant of Pelor might be a little overpowered; there's always that chance with some WotC products.
Now to address your concerns: As far as beefing up the class, I've considered what you said and you're right; it needs something and I've got some ideas. Their Faith of the Heart ability is actually fairly hefty - it stacks with feats and other bonuses (it's not listed as a specific type of bonus for stacking purposes), which is something most divine PrC's that I've seen don't have. And I wouldn't want to increase their casting progression because that would emphasize too strong a divine link.
I'll propose upping thier hit die to d10. With a fighter's hit die, they have an added toughness that no divine class really gets. In addition, I was considering condensing Faith of the Heart down into 1 ability and granting three others - I have some ideas and I'll get to them in the next day or so.
I appreciate your criticism! Your comments were very constructive and have helped me a great deal!
Think about what the Citadel Guardian is, though. Really, they're warriors who defend the Citadel of Light. The old [i]Citadel of Light boxed set hints that they don't even have spellcasting ability. Now, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I would think they would have minimal training as mystics or clerics just due to being around the environment of the Citadel for so long. So in this case, I think the sporadic progression of divine spellcasting ability is warranted.
I would drop the requirement from casting 2nd-level divine spells to 1st-level, to help to better define this, though.
SAGA roles had very loose rules. Any character could do anything, so don't try to stick so firmly to old SAGA concepts - they're too flexible to set a firm notion of what a class should and should not do.
However, you have an excellent point about their spellcasting requirement. It will be dropped to 1st level spells.
Great critique everyone! Thanks and please keep it coming. :D
However, you have an excellent point about their spellcasting requirement. It will be dropped to 1st level spells.
Is it your intent to allow this prestige class to be taken as somebody's 5th character level? A paladin, cleric, or ranger could qualify for that class at 4th level if you drop the spellcasting requirement to 1st. Actually, a cleric could qualify for it regardless of whether you dropped it or not.
I mean, I know the knight of the Crown and wizard of High Sorcery are both classes you can qualify for at 4th level, but they're considerably more iconic than a Citadel guardian.
Cheers,
Cam
Is it your intent to allow this prestige class to be taken as somebody's 5th character level? A paladin, cleric, or ranger could qualify for that class at 4th level if you drop the spellcasting requirement to 1st. Actually, a cleric could qualify for it regardless of whether you dropped it or not.
I mean, I know the knight of the Crown and wizard of High Sorcery are both classes you can qualify for at 4th level, but they're considerably more iconic than a Citadel guardian.
Cheers,
Cam
No, 5th... wait, let me check...
Ah, shoot. There was some confusion on my part in regards to the BAB/Will save requirement. The spellcasting needs to stay at 2nd level.
No, 5th... wait, let me check...
Ah, shoot. There was some confusion on my part in regards to the BAB/Will save requirement. The spellcasting needs to stay at 2nd level.
Or you could up the required skill ranks...
Cheers,
Cam
Rooks, I don't think that the abilities that you have given the Citadel Guardian merit a loss of 2 caster levels. Losing 2 caster levels is a big deal and a class that forced you to lose caster levels better provide something [i]good]/i] to make up for it. And frankly, those abilities just aren't worth it. The Radiant Servant of Pelor advances turning, gets 2 good saves, advances spell casting at every level and has a ton of other abilities. Same with the Sacred Exorcist. And many other divine prestige classes grant full caster progression and cool abilities, sacrificing only turning advancement. So, if I were you, I'd add those 2 caster levels back.
Actually, since you brought it up, what about the Radiant Servant of Pelor? Pelor and Mishakal have an awful lot in common and certainly several of the PrC's characteristics, especially the ones relating to Healing, overlap nicely. What mods does this class need to be made more Citadel-appropriate for clerics?
Actually, since you brought it up, what about the Radiant Servant of Pelor? Pelor and Mishakal have an awful lot in common and certainly several of the PrC's characteristics, especially the ones relating to Healing, overlap nicely. What mods does this class need to be made more Citadel-appropriate for clerics?
I don't think I would ever let anybody play a radiant servant in one of my campaigns, and I'm pretty liberal as a GM.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't think I would ever let anybody play a radiant servant in one of my campaigns, and I'm pretty liberal as a GM.
Cheers,
Cam
I'm gonna go with you on this. I just looked that class over and it's loaded to the gills... I'll make a call and say it's way too powerful.
And on the skill ranks you mentioned? I could do that, but I'll say that as a personal pet peeve, I detest high skill rank requirments. They peeve me to no end; sitting there, dumping valuable skill points into a few select choices that a PrC designed thought would be 'essential to good class development'. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and coming off the d20 Modern work I did, I worked with skills a lot. Maybe I'm just more lenient in D&D? Who knows...
I think the 2nd level divine spells would be better. Really helps railroad the potential character into more mystic or cleric levels. But you are right - it can be done the other way.
And what in the holy crap have I just spend the last three minutes typing? My God... I'm rambling.
Peace.
And on the skill ranks you mentioned? I could do that, but I'll say that as a personal pet peeve, I detest high skill rank requirments. They peeve me to no end; sitting there, dumping valuable skill points into a few select choices that a PrC designed thought would be 'essential to good class development'. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and coming off the d20 Modern work I did, I worked with skills a lot. Maybe I'm just more lenient in D&D? Who knows...
I don't disagree that it forces you to put skill points in a certain place, but that's kind of a weak argument. I make use of skills all the time in my campaigns, and everybody who has ranks in skills gets to make use of them. In addition, what else would you put them in? The two you have for Citadel guardian are what the character should be good at. Why else would they be requirements in the first place?
Cheers,
Cam
I don't disagree that it forces you to put skill points in a certain place, but that's kind of a weak argument. I make use of skills all the time in my campaigns, and everybody who has ranks in skills gets to make use of them. In addition, what else would you put them in? The two you have for Citadel guardian are what the character should be good at. Why else would they be requirements in the first place?
Cheers,
Cam
No, no. Let me clarify because I think you misunderstood.
My point is that upping the skill ranks are perfectly legit, but as a personal design choice, I don't like doing it with D&D very often.
And in this case, when the 2nd level divine spells requirement fits so perfectly (and is much more restrictive), I think it makes more sense just to leave it the way it is.
Just a misunderstanding there.
BTW Cam, what are you going to be for Halloween?
Just a misunderstanding there.
I think I understood you just fine, but I get that it's a personal design thing and not something you're saying is the work of evil PrC designers. Since I am one.
BTW Cam, what are you going to be for Halloween?
Trick or treating was this evening here, probably because the religious folks were nervous about it being tomorrow. Anyway, my son went as Batman, my wife was a princess, and I was one of those Scottish highlanders from the cover of a trashy romance novel. Complete with kilt, garters, plaid, and blousy swashbuckler's shirt.
Cheers,
Cam
I think I understood you just fine, but I get that it's a personal design thing and not something you're saying is the work of evil PrC designers. Since I am one.
You and me both. But after working with d20 Modern for the past year or so, I'm just awfully partial to it. When I come back to D&D, I feel it lacks a symmetry and balance that d20 Modern has. D&D is much trickier to balance properly, partially because of the flood of D&D products (many official) that are poorly balanced or constructed. Modern has very defined level limits with set class structures, all of which carries a very smooth symmetry to it. I liken designing for d20 Modern like crafting a clay sculpture using a very sharp clay knife, a prescision chisel, and a brand new pottery table. I liken it to D&D by saying its like making the same sculpture using a hacksaw, a rusty needle, and a beer bottle.
Trick or treating was this evening here, probably because the religious folks were nervous about it being tomorrow. Anyway, my son went as Batman, my wife was a princess, and I was one of those Scottish highlanders from the cover of a trashy romance novel. Complete with kilt, garters, plaid, and blousy swashbuckler's shirt.
Cheers,
Cam
Ah. I'm picturing you and I'm picturing Fabio, both of you standing on the deck of a ship with the wind blowing your manes back. There's a woman just melting in both your arms. I think it's my Aunt Sylvia. Remind her she owes me $10 from the Bucs game a few weeks ago.
I went as an underpaid writer this year. I stapled manuscripts to me and begged at people's doors for them to just give it a read through, just a quick read through, God, please, the pain, just a read through, oh my God, your pitbull has my leg!
You get the idea.
Peace all.
You and me both. But after working with d20 Modern for the past year or so, I'm just awfully partial to it. When I come back to D&D, I feel it lacks a symmetry and balance that d20 Modern has. D&D is much trickier to balance properly, partially because of the flood of D&D products (many official) that are poorly balanced or constructed. Modern has very defined level limits with set class structures, all of which carries a very smooth symmetry to it.
I've been working with d20 Modern since it was in development, and while I agree that it's a nice change from the fixed classes of D&D I wouldn't say it's more successful than D&D at being balanced. There are several issues with the rules that find revision in third-party products, and truthfully I think Bloodaxe Game's Grim Tales does a much better job of character definement than d20 Modern does. Regardless, there's no difference in the skill system between the two, and in fact 3.5 D&D benefited from some of the concepts R&D were working on with d20 Modern when it was released, so it's easily the best implementation of D&D at this point.
If you haven't seen Grim Tales yet, I'd recommend it. It's been influential in my own work on GLORIANA.
Cheers,
Cam
I've been working with d20 Modern since it was in development, and while I agree that it's a nice change from the fixed classes of D&D I wouldn't say it's more successful than D&D at being balanced. There are several issues with the rules that find revision in third-party products, and truthfully I think Bloodaxe Game's Grim Tales does a much better job of character definement than d20 Modern does. Regardless, there's no difference in the skill system between the two, and in fact 3.5 D&D benefited from some of the concepts R&D were working on with d20 Modern when it was released, so it's easily the best implementation of D&D at this point.
If you haven't seen Grim Tales yet, I'd recommend it. It's been influential in my own work on GLORIANA.
Cheers,
Cam
Again, we're just talking about me being iffy on raising skill limits. And when I say balanced (in relation to d20 Modern), I'm talking about the overall greater symmetry that it has. All AdvC's have bonsu feats at set intervals, classes are more limited to X number of levels, etc. Not really rules, per say, but more tightly established guidelines that have always design work for me easier.
Never seen Grim Tales. Must check it out. On the flip side, seen the new Conan d20? Some great work in there.
Back on topic: Anything else to add about the classes I put up? And thanks for the input so far!
At the Citadel of Light, the study of necromancy was expressly forbidden; necromancy dealing more with animating corpses, etc. However, the practice of spiritualism was okay, that being communicating with the spirits of the undead. There was some concern over the practice, but it generally wasn't considered evil like necromancy is.
A spiritualist PrC may be good, but it would have to offer some special abilities found nowhere else. Honestly, I'm not sure I would go this route with the kender nightstalker already in place.
I can understand where your coming from in regards to the Nightstalker thing. I just used used that as an illustrative example to spawn further ideas. In actuality, this class could even play off of the seer. Maybe the spiritualist communicates with ghosts to collect information. Perhaps they could take a spirit familiar of sorts that can bolster their ability checks and/or spell like abilities. Progression in the class means they form a stronger tie to their spirit, so the bonuses the spirit can convey become a little stronger. Just a thought.
Do you mean Mina?
Nope, Nephera, high priestess of the Forerunners, wife of Emperor Hotak De Droka. She does not worship the gods, and even borderline mocks them for leaving the minotaurs, and never really helping them anyway. She uses spirits for spying, assasinations, visions, empowering herself, scrying, etc etc.
There was a role in Citadel of Light called a Citadel Renegade, or something to that effect. I could easily see coming up with a villain who once studied at the Citadel, but turned against his fellow mystics. Perhaps he turns to the worship of Chemosh and becomes a cleric, or becomes a powerful mystic necromancer.
That's not a bad idea, but I was thinking more of the follower of Goldmoon that sought to communicate with the dead, and succeeded (even though Goldmoon warned him of doing so). He was eventually corrupted by both the power of the dead, and the evil of one of the spirits he contacted. The spirits and the follower fed off of each other's growing evil and became more and more powerful. IIRC, he had a delusion that he could bring the dead back, and in the process, made them something far more sinister instead. Something he was inspired to do after he decided to try and bring Riverwind back to life as a gift to Goldmoon.
A mystic seer would be a neat idea, and one that doesn't have to be limited to the Citadel.
Do you think the idea of a modified psionic would be feasible, or just limit it to scrying, and things of that nature?
I think Citadel Guardian should have 10 levels. I'm not sure about the Skill requirements, but i think that the BaB should be a point or two higher, if this is a warrior-type.
A fighter's BAB and divine spellcasting? That's a little too much when you factor in the good Fort and Will saves, the d8 hit die, and the class abilities.
I meant the BaB in the REQUIREMENTS. Sorry if it is misleading. I like 3/4 BaB for it. I just think it should have a few points higher requirements.
Why?
The requirements, as they are, force a character to be 5th level in order to take the prestige class. Why should a class geared towards mystics and clerics have a higher BAB?
Why?
The requirements, as they are, force a character to be 5th level in order to take the prestige class. Why should a class geared towards mystics and clerics have a higher BAB?
No, it only requires that they be 4th level before they can take the class (cleric or mystic 4, cleric or mystic 3 plus 1 level of any class with a +1 BAB, etc). The PrC is the character's 5th level.
Cheers,
Cam
No, it only requires that they be 4th level before they can take the class (cleric or mystic 4, cleric or mystic 3 plus 1 level of any class with a +1 BAB, etc). The PrC is the character's 5th level.
Cheers,
Cam
That's what I said: "...force a character to be 5th level in order to take the prestige class..."
So, upon hitting 5th level (as a character), you enter into this PrC.
That's what I said: "...force a character to be 5th level in order to take the prestige class..."
So, upon hitting 5th level (as a character), you enter into this PrC.
What you said came across more as "requires you to be 5th level before taking the PrC" which means having 5 class levels before meeting the requirements, which is standard for most prestige classes. I'd said earlier that it would probably be better for this class to have a 5-level requirement, rather than the 4-level one which was made as an exception to the rule for the Crown knight PrC and wizard of High Sorcery, each of which is singularly iconic. I wouldn't say this kind of character has that sort of esteem.
But, as you said, you hate using skill ranks as requirements, so it's a little hard to enforce that.
Cheers,
Cam
What you said came across more as "requires you to be 5th level before taking the PrC" which means having 5 class levels before meeting the requirements, which is standard for most prestige classes. I'd said earlier that it would probably be better for this class to have a 5-level requirement, rather than the 4-level one which was made as an exception to the rule for the Crown knight PrC and wizard of High Sorcery, each of which is singularly iconic. I wouldn't say this kind of character has that sort of esteem.
But, as you said, you hate using skill ranks as requirements, so it's a little hard to enforce that.
Cheers,
Cam
You misunderstood me but it was just semantics anyway.
I agree on the level requirement; this class isn't iconic enough to be dropped into at 4th level. It's not a setting requirement like the WoHS or Knights are. And although I don't like upping skill ranks, I'm going to do that in the revision in order to lower the casting requirement down to 1st level divine spells. There's also going to be some renaming and ability clarification - I'll be adding a smidegeon more punch to the class as well in addition to touching up the requirements.Geez... sometimes designing for D&D twists me up after having done d20 Modern for over a year and a half... ever get that?
On topic, does anyone want to submit a class? I think it would be great to see a lot more ideas done up on this thread. Cam? DH? Talinthas? Anyone?
Peace.
I've revised the Citadel Guardian based on the popularity of 10-level PrC's as well as a tighter, slightly more powerful 5-level class. You can use whichever one you like. You'll also notice that the requirements are a little more strict, but the class packs quite a bit more punch than it used to. As always, critique and feedback is welcome.
Here is the 10-level version.
Citadel Guardian
The Citadel Guardian lives a life dedicated to the protection of the Citadel of Light and its attendees. Serving as the guards, enforcers, and bodyguards of the Citadel and its patrons, Citadel Guardians are the miltary arm of the Citadel of Light. Their dedication to the Citadel is paramount and their faith both in themselves and the tenets of the Citadel serves as an ethical pillar in the aesthetic values of the Guardians. While Citadel Guardians are required to be proficient in some small level of mystic knowledge and power, some Citadel Guardians come from those who couldn't pass the Citadel's tests or those whose interest in the pursuit of mystic capability was surpassed by a more martial focus. Clerics, druids, fighters, mystics, and rangers all make excellent Citadel Guardians.
While often assigned to serve as bodyguards, a Citadel Guardian's missions often feature a wide variety of adventures. The Citadel is not without its enemies and the Citadel Guardian must always be vigilant in the protection of the Citadel against such foes. Some Guardians are even sent out solo or in groups for matters of espionage; the Citadel, while opposed to political manipulation and subterfuge, understands the value of learning the ideas and potential threats that come from the outside world before it's too late.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
To qualify to become a Citadel Guardian, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any good.
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Saves: Base Will Save +2
Skills: Heal 8 ranks, Survival 4 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st level divine spells.
Class Skills
The Citadel Guardian's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points per level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
[SIZE=3]All of the following features are class features for the Citadel Guardian prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Citadel Guardians are proficient with all martial weapons.
Spells Per Day: A Citadel Guardian continues their advancement in the use of divine magic. Starting at 2nd level and every other level thereafter, the Citadel Guardian gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. The Citadel Guardian does not gain any other benefits a character of the former class would except for increased effective level of spellcasting. A Citadel Guardian who had more than one divine spellcasting class must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of spells per day.
Guardian Faith (Su): At 1st level, a Citadel Guardian hones his defensive awareness of the situations around him. He may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to his armor class. At 4th level, he may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to all saving throws. At 8th level, he may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to his attack and damage rolls. The bonuses last for a number of rounds equal to the character's class level.
Guardian Insight (Ex): at 2nd level, Citadel Guardians gain a greater understanding into the nature of their faith and the ways it manifests through their actions. A Citadel Guardian may add half his divine caster level as an insight bonus to any Wisdom-based skill check. He may do this a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom bonus.
Bonus Feat: At 3rd and 6th level, a Citadel Guardian gains a bonus feat that must be selected from the following: Alertness, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Diehard, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Self-Sufficient, Spell Focus, Touhgness, Weapon Focus, or any Metamagic feat. The Citadel Guardian must meet all the prerequisites of a bonus feat to take it.
Guardianship (Ex): At 5th level, a Citadel Guardian gains the ability to better protect his charges. The Citadel Guardian selects a single visible ally within 30 ft. and may add his Dexterity modifier (if positive) to the ally's armor class as a bonus. While the bonus is transferred to a target, the Citadel Guardian does not lose his own Dexterity bonus to armor class.
Guardian Evasion (Ex): At 7th level, a Citadel Guardian becomes capable of evading danger reflexively. Anytime the Citadel Guardian is forced to make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage taken, he takes no damage on a successful save.
Inspired Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a Citadel Guardian is capable of bestowing a greater level of protection to his charges simply by virtue of his presence. The Citadel Guardian may choose a single visible ally within 50 ft. and bestow the benefits of his Guardian Evasion class ability to them. The benefits last as long as the Citadel Guardian is within range of the chosen ally. Changing allies to receive the ability is a move action.
Stand for the Citadel (Ex): At 10th level, a Citadel Guardian is able to summon tremendous fortitude in times of dire need. Once per day, the Citadel Guardian may call upon his inner resources to gain damage reduction equal to his class level plus his Constitution bonus. The damage reduction type is -/-.[/SIZE]
Here is the 5-level version.
[SIZE=3]Spells Per Day: A Citadel Guardian continues their advancement the use of divine magic. Starting at 1st level and every other level thereafter, the Citadel Guardian gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. The Citadel Guardian does not gain any other benefits a character of the former class would except for increased effective level of spellcasting. A Citadel Guardian who had more than one divine spellcasting class must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of spells per day.
Guardian Faith (Su): At 1st level, a Citadel Guardian hones his defensive awareness of the situations around him. He may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to his armor class. At 3rd level, he may expend an existing divine spell slot and add the level of the spell slot as a divine bonus to his attack and damage rolls. The bonuses last for a number of rounds equal to the character's divine caster level plus class level.
Guardian Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level, a Citadel Guardian becomes capable of evading danger reflexively. Anytime the Citadel Guardian is forced to make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage taken, he takes no damage on a successful save.
Inspired Evasion (Ex): At 4th level, a Citadel Guardian is capable of bestowing a greater level of protection to his charges simply by virtue of his presence. The Citadel Guardian may choose a single visible ally within 50 ft. and bestow the benefits of his Guardian Evasion class ability to them. The benefits last as long as the Citadel Guardian is within range of the chosen ally. Changing allies to receive the ability is a move action.
Stand for the Citadel (Ex): At 5th level, a Citadel Guardian is able to summon tremendous fortitude in times of dire need. Once per day, the Citadel Guardian may call upon his inner resources to gain damage reduction equal to his class level plus his Constitution bonus. The damage reduction type is -/-.[/SIZE]
Cheers,
Cam
Rooks, that guardian insight special ability is pretty powerful. With abilities like that, you'd want to drop the skill points/level to 2. Even then, it might be a better idea to change the way the ability works such that it does something other than add divine caster level.
Cheers,
Cam
Ah, yes, let's talk about that. It's strong, yes, limited and circumstantial. I was originally going to apply it only to Listen, Spot, and Survival, but I didn't think that would be enough. And the bonus is scaled based on divine caster level, so it won't go too terribly high unless someone wants to pump a lot of levels into caster classes. But with a d8 Hit Die, cleric BAB and upped requirements, do you really think it's too much? Help me out here... give me some reasoning.
It's absent from 5-level version so I suppose that's not a concern.
Edit: Wait a sec... I think I may have made an error and meant it to be 1/2 divine caster level, but I need to check the original Word document. Anywho, holler at me.
The Citadel Guardian also looks pretty spiffy. ;)