Brimstone wrote:
BTW, is it just me, or does the physical description of the Tarmak seem to lend well to Duncan Ironweaver? :heehee
I know, probably not, but he was described as having a bit of elven and dwarvish traits so that you weren't sure exactly what he was. Tarmak fits that well in body, if not in mind. *shrugs*
Back to topic!
Cheers,
Cam
How do you explain half-kender, or that human in Brothers in Arm who had goblin ancestry?
Why is everyone under the impression that the Tarmak are some type of half-breed race? Isn't it possible that they were just a race unto themselves without necessarily having some sort of cross species origin?
Not in Dragonlance.
There are only three true mortal races: humans, elves, and ogres. They are the only races created at the end of the Age of Starbirth...from the souls in the stars themselves.
The bakali came before...but like the dragons, they were created from the earth. All the fey creatures, they come from the High God and are children of magic and nature.
All races on Krynn have to come from those 5 groups in one form or another.
Having pointed ears doesn't make the Tarmak relatives of elves. It's very possible that they were influenced in the Age of Dreams by the irda, who taught them the art of painting their bodies blue to protect themselves. The Tarmak could, in fact, be a race of half-ogres, their ogre blood coming from before the fall of that mighty race.
At the moment...this is the idea I like the best of the origins of the Tarmak.
I just like my views on Krynnish racial breeding too much.
Not in Dragonlance.
There are only three true mortal races: humans, elves, and ogres. They are the only races created at the end of the Age of Starbirth...from the souls in the stars themselves.
The bakali came before...but like the dragons, they were created from the earth. All the fey creatures, they come from the High God and are children of magic and nature.
All races on Krynn have to come from those 5 groups in one form or another.
I didn't realize that. Very interesting. I'm not positive on this, but didn't it state in AoM that Tarmak weren't native of Krynn? Or was it that they weren't native to Ansalon? I don't have my copy of AoM with me.
I didn't realize that. Very interesting. I'm not positive on this, but didn't it stat in AoM that Tarmak weren't native of Krynn? Or was it that they weren't native to Ansalon? I don't have my copy of AoM with me.
Um...I don't know for sure. But if I had to guess...it probably said not native to Ansalon.
... All the fey creatures, they come from the High God and are children of magic and nature ...
At the risk of sounding ignorant - which races are considered among the fey in Krynn?
At the risk of sounding ignorant - which races are considered among the fey in Krynn?
Dryads, sprites, satyrs, that sort of thing. Anything with the fey creature type is automatically in that group. Some might appear to be fey, but aren't - centaurs aren't fey, for example, although they live in areas that fey frequent.
Cheers,
Cam
Having pointed ears doesn't make the Tarmak relatives of elves.
Exactly why I don't like the theory that kender are related to elves, which is largely due to pointed ears (and general appearance) as well as the controverrsy over Balif.
At the risk of sounding ignorant - which races are considered among the fey in Krynn?
Well, for the purposes of "children and protectors of nature created by the High God" they would be nymphs, sprites, faeries, satyrs, centaurs, dryads, sirens, not sure what else...
Huldrefolk now seem to not be native of Krynn. Kyrie (and their Greygem offshoot Aarakockra) and Shadowpeople may be fey as well.
Now...Dragonlance fey creatures do not necessarily mean they are "fey" in the sense of D&D. I just can't think of a better term for them.
How about Children of the Stars (humans, ogres, elves), Children of Krynn (dragons, bakali), and Children of Nature (centaurs, kyrie, shadowpeople, fey)?
Dryads, sprites, satyrs, that sort of thing. Anything with the fey creature type is automatically in that group. Some might appear to be fey, but aren't - centaurs aren't fey, for example, although they live in areas that fey frequent.
Right...I really should stop using that term.
How about just Children of Nature? (that would include the non D&D "fey" type creatures and the other nature protectors of Krynn like centaurs, sirens, kyrie, and shadowpeople)
Now let me flaunt my ignorance a bit further... :embarrass
What are Shadowpeople?
Thanks.
Now let me flaunt my ignorance a bit further... :embarrass
What are Shadowpeople?
They were a underground dwelling humaniod race that live beneath Neraka. They have recently disappeared.
It's nice visiting Krynn again...
Thanks once more.
It's nice visiting Krynn again...
I forgot about the thanoi...I'm not sure if they're a Child of Nature or if they're a Graygem mutated ogre/goblinoid.
Anyway, this is a shadowperson and a thanoi (left and right respectively)
How do you explain half-kender, or that human in Brothers in Arm who had goblin ancestry?
The half kender are human descended, so humans can breed with them. The half-goblin I was prepared to allow to go the way of the half-orc in Kendermore because hobgoblins are pretty much the same thing statistically. I suppose I would lose Bram DiThon too, since he is half-fey.
However, I was looking for something simple to explain to my players as to what half-breeds they could expect to find. It was simple, and it kept out most of the wonky while allowing all but two examples from the canon works. However, otherwise it just seems to convoluted and vague to explain to my players.
The same with magic on Krynn. If I ever use all 4 magics, I'll just say they draw upon the various planes of existance (mysticism positive/negative energy planes, Sorcerers elemental planes, Wizards Astral, Ethereal and Shadow planes, and Clerics the outer planes.) Otherwise I have a hard time explaining the difference of where the magic comes from.
As for the Tarmak they can be half-Irda or a human greygem offshoot. I think though that the reason all of us got the idea that they are ogre/elf/human mixture is because they were previously described as having "the pointed ears of elves, the beards of dwarves and the strength of ogres".
As for the Tarmak they can be half-Irda or a human greygem offshoot. I think though that the reason all of us got the idea that they are ogre/elf/human mixture is because they were previously described as having "the pointed ears of elves, the beards of dwarves and the strength of ogres".
Don't ogres/irda have pointed ears, too, though?
Right...I really should stop using that term.
How about just Children of Nature? (that would include the non D&D "fey" type creatures and the other nature protectors of Krynn like centaurs, sirens, kyrie, and shadowpeople)
Okay...I don't know why I forgot this term...but I was reading through the DLDMS again last night. A much better term for the "children of nature" would be the "Sylvan Races."
That way, you avoid the confusion of using a D&D "type" term...but still get the same basic meaning across.
Don't ogres/irda have pointed ears, too, though?
Yes that is true (though I wish it wasn't because it makes Irda too elfin) but it doesn't change the fact that's where the amalgam of races idea for the Tarmak came from.
It came from the description "beards of dwarves, ears of elves, and strength of Ogres". I wish I could remember where I read that.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind the half-Irda origin for the Tarmak, because I like the idea of the Brutes being barbaric and evil, but still beautiful people. Fills a niche.
Yes that is true (though I wish it wasn't because it makes Irda too elfin) but it doesn't change the fact that's where the amalgam of races idea for the Tarmak came from.
It came from the description "beards of dwarves, ears of elves, and strength of Ogres". I wish I could remember where I read that.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind the half-Irda origin for the Tarmak, because I like the idea of the Brutes being barbaric and evil, but still beautiful people. Fills a niche.
A bunch of STINKING GIANT *KENDER*
A half dwarf/ half elf maybe a possible origin as well for the Tarmak. Think along the lines of the Mul from Dark Sun. Granted those are human dwarf cross breeds but elf/dwarf could produce something similar.
Except that half-dwarves are sterile, so that couldn't be the case.
The three original races can breed with any other race and create an offspirng. No other races can breed between themselves. No goblin - kobold crossbreeds. No minotaur - goblin crossbreeds.
So the breeds that can cross breed are human, Irda, Ogre, Elf. Remember ogres are not a result of the greygem, they are a result of the slow degradation of the irda race. Sorta like the de-evolution of the human being (homosapian) to the cave man.
As far as for the tarmak. My theory.
When two of the original races create offspring, these offspring can mate betweens themselves and create an entirely new race. for instance. If two Half-Elves mate they would produce a half-elf. Same thing for a pair of half-ogres and even a ogre-elf offspring. Through the eventually continual breeding this would create a race entirely new to krynn. Now we know what would happen when an elf and human breed, we even know what would happen when an ogre and human breed. We do not know what would happen when an irda and a human breed. I believe that the tarmak are the result of the irda that left with Igraine breeding with humans. When Igraine left some humans went with him. There were some half-irda created during this time and they wanted their own place. Through the eventually descenadants the tarmak were created. Just as the irda degraded into the Ogre the tarmak are degradation of the half-irda who left Igraine. I think there are half-irda that are more like the irda that still live with the descendant sof Igraine or somewhere else.
Except that half-dwarves are sterile, so that couldn't be the case.
Thats only in accordance with Dark Sun half-dwarves/Mul rules. Just like Dark Sun elves are tall and run fast which isn't the case for DL elves. Its a rule/mechanic specifically for that campaign world. I can't recall any product outside of DS that detail half-dwarves.
So a half dwarf/ half elf could still be an option/explination for Tarmaks.
I didn't realize that. Very interesting.
As a side note to this. I was re-reading Worldbook of Krynn this weekend (2nd Edition Dragonlance), and it claims that goblins Graygem mutations from already mutated (from the "curse") ogres.
SAGA says they are ogre/elf crossbreeds. 3rd Edition Dragonlance says they are most likely ogre/elf crossbreeds, but this theory is contended.
I don't suppose anyone has DLA handy do they? (I should have checked that one too) There's no telling what the 1st Edition rules were though...I'm not sure it's in DLA. Maybe somewhere in DL5 or DL16 perhaps? Maybe Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home. I'm not sure...I don't think it was first mentioned in SAGA...but I could be mistaken.
The races (and their offshoots) listed before the greygem are:
Dragons
Irda: Ogres, Minotaurs, Giants, Goblins
Animals
Humans: Gnomes
Elves: Silvanesti, Kagonesti
According the PLayer's Guide to Dragonlance: Goblins are descendants of the ogres changed by the greygem.
According the PLayer's Guide to Dragonlance: Goblins are descendants of the ogres changed by the greygem.
Yeah, that should be the same write up that's in the Worldbook of Ansalon from TotL.
I saw that last night in the DLA, too. So...I guess the DLDMS is probably the best of what we've got: "Here's what we think is true...but it's hottly contested."
What saga resource says goblins are ogre\elf crossbreeds?
I believe it's The Bestiary. I'll check that tonight. (5th Age Boxed Set may say that as well.)
What saga resource says goblins are ogre\elf crossbreeds?
It's mentioned in the Dragonlance DM Screen booklet's Monster section.
What saga resource says goblins are ogre\elf crossbreeds?
Okay...here we go:
Dragonlance Adventures: Goblins are a curse mutated variant of ogres. Hobgoblins and bugbears are Graygem variations of goblins.
Worldbook of Ansalon: Goblins are a curse mutated variant of ogres. Hobgoblins and bugbears are Graygem variations of goblins.
Book of the Fifth Age: Goblins are the offspring of ogres and elves. Hobgoblins and bugbears are Graygem variations of goblins.
Dusk and Dawn: Goblin races are a Graygem mutation created at the Tower of Gargath's.
The Bestiary: Caramon says he was taught that the goblin races are Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Sligs, and Kobolds. Growing up, he learned that goblins were the offspring of ogres and elves; a hobgoblin was an offspring with more elven blood than ogre, and a bugbear was an offspring that had more ogre blood than elven. Sligs and kobolds are Graygem variations of these races. Bertrem says scholars believe sligs and kobolds have a more reptillian ancestor and are probably not related to the goblins...also he says that many on Ansalon do not buy that the goblins are offspring of ogres and elves (and the ogres and elves themselves vehemently deny it)
Dragonlance Dungeon Master's Screen: Says that goblins are most likely offspring of ogres and elves and that the other goblin races (hobgoblins, bugbears, grimlocks, etc.) are Graygem mutations. But this is a hotly debated topic.
So...there you go...that's about as accurate as we're gonna get, I think.
What does everybody think of my theory
My theory.
When two of the original races create offspring, these offspring can mate betweens themselves and create an entirely new race. for instance. If two Half-Elves mate they would produce a half-elf. Same thing for a pair of half-ogres and even a ogre-elf offspring. Through the eventually continual breeding this would create a race entirely new to krynn. Now we know what would happen when an elf and human breed, we even know what would happen when an ogre and human breed. We do not know what would happen when an irda and a human breed. I believe that the tarmak are the result of the irda that left with Igraine breeding with humans. When Igraine left some humans went with him. There were some half-irda created during this time and they wanted their own place. Through the eventually descenadants the tarmak were created. Just as the irda degraded into the Ogre the tarmak are degradation of the half-irda who left Igraine. I think there are half-irda that are more like the irda that still live with the descendant sof Igraine or somewhere else.
We do not know what would happen when an irda and a human breed. I believe that the tarmak are the result of the irda that left with Igraine breeding with humans. When Igraine left some humans went with him.
The Tarmak could very well be offspring of ancient humans with the ancient High Ogres. Cam mentioned this above, as well, and it is by far my favorite idea on the origin of the Tarmak race. It's also the one that makes the most sense.
I don't, however, believe they are what you would get if an Irda and a human bred these days. The Irda have changed too much, I think...they are not the high ogres they once were.
I don't, however, believe they are what you would get if an Irda and a human bred these days. The Irda have changed too much, I think...they are not the high ogres they once were.
I believe that would depend on the Irda you use. As we know you have the ones who broke open the Greygem as well as the ones on Selasia (I think that is the island's name) the ones mentioned in otherworlds. In the middle the ocean between Taladas and Ansalon.
The Tarmak could very well be offspring of ancient humans with the ancient High Ogres.
Of course, another theory might be that they are actually the ancient ogres, if we assume that the modern Irda are not the same as the ancient ogres of old. ;)