Sargonnas' Character - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ferratus Oct 21, 2004 19:11:38	Sargonnas may come across as a big dumb brute, but he's not. He's not chaotic evil. He's lawful evil - he understands and exploits such things as oaths, bonds of loyalty, promises, pacts, and tradition. He understands and exploits honor, especially as a means of delivering a swift and bloody response to a slight or a threat from outside of his influence. Sargonnas is creative, as are all of the gods in Dragonlance associated with fire. True, his methods are brutal, violent and usually result in bloodshed, but he doesn't lash out like an undisciplined barbarian. His is a righteous and focused anger.
#2 Charles_Phipps Oct 21, 2004 19:31:05	What I'm disputing is that Sargonnas is interested in conquering the world, and I dispute this for two reasons. The first reason is that it simply isn't interesting from a story perspective. We've had three successive stories where a god of evil tried to conquer the world. If we're going to just do it again, what was the point of Takhisis dying? I've had enough. This is what I disagree with. Sargonnas in my mind has ALWAYS been about conquering the world, a thousand more times than Takhasis honestly. Takhasis wanted to control every last living thing in the entirety of Krynn and beyond because she was a possessive witch.... Sargonnas wants to rule the world because that is the only way that he can prove HIMSELF to be the strongest of all gods. The Violence itself is satisfying to him but ultimately he wishes his followers to be as powerful as he and the only way to do so is to keep them on an ever ascending staircase of conquest. It's not just Krynn but the UNIVERSE. Frankly, I'd like to see Sargonnas become morally ambigious to some extent. I'd like to see him show mercy, compassion, and respect for his foes. Takhasis was the one dimensional "I am evil incarnate" Zebomin, Nuitari, and Chemosh have all shown admirable qualities that ironically might lead to redemption were the gods so inclined (and maybe explain some of paladine's tratment of them). Sargonnas is certainly the one who should be closest in my mind. I suppose the Knights of Takhasis and Kas' people embody what I think of Sargonnas. He's the Roman Empire, the crushing boot, the Qin Emperor, and the Imperialist He's the violent nobility to Kiri-Jonilith's white washed.
#3 luis_de_pippo Oct 21, 2004 20:11:15	The problem Sargonnas had always had, and that prevented him from being truly known and despised, is that he was always under the shadow of Takhisis and that she did not let him do what he truly wanted to do. The examples of Sargonnas character we have are from one novel that is almost non-canon (The Queen of Darkness in which she destroys him because he angers her) and Galen Benikighted, in which he is shown as a cunning planner and schemer capable of waiting years for the completition of a plan. Sargonnas had to work through proxies (such as the Scorpion in Weasel´s Luck) because he could not act openly. In fact the history of the minotaur people is the history of the god. While the god was weak and serving others, so did the minotaurs. As soon as the god was free (Takhisis died) he and his people attacked and proclaimed themselves the masters of Silvanesti. If that is not a show of how he thinks, nothing is. First Silvanesti, tomorrow Ansalon, next week Krynn.
#4 ferratus Oct 21, 2004 20:43:01	Sargonnas wants to rule the world because that is the only way that he can prove HIMSELF to be the strongest of all gods. If Sargonnas felt he needed to prove something, I get the impression he'd deal with it himself. That is really the only reason he would care about ruling heaven. He doesn't care about the position of the top seat like Chemosh or Hiddukel do, he just wants to prove he is the strongest. However, how would he prove that through mortals? Their worship doesn't give the Gods of Krynn power. The Violence itself is satisfying to him but ultimately he wishes his followers to be as powerful as he and the only way to do so is to keep them on an ever ascending staircase of conquest. Okay... but then what? Takhisis wanted to possess it because she lusts after things as a goddess of desire. But what does it prove once you've conquered everything with the minotaurs? Wouldn't you, as a god of violence and vengence, love to start the whole thing over again?
#5 Charles_Phipps Oct 21, 2004 21:06:11	If Sargonnas felt he needed to prove something, I get the impression he'd deal with it himself. That is really the only reason he would care about ruling heaven. He doesn't care about the position of the top seat like Chemosh or Hiddukel do, he just wants to prove he is the strongest. However, how would he prove that through mortals? Their worship doesn't give the Gods of Krynn power. It actually does according to the Appendix, their power is STRENGTHENED by mortal worship as they leave a portion of power behind when they move on in the River of Souls (Chemosh doesn't even allow them to leave and it seems likely that the Dark Queen is similiar) Sargonnas I don't think actually even considers the spot of "King of the Evil gods" actually in dispute, he IS the King, he just needs to convince the otherds of that. And I disagree, that position of Top Dog is THE most important thing on his mind. As for proving it through mortals, I think Sargonnas needs to prove his chosen people are masters of the world and his worshippers better than anyone even by proxy. The fact he's always drilled into the minotaurs that they are going to rule the world is a major point in his favor. Also, don't forget in the quasi-canon "Companions" that Sargonnas tried to take over the world before Takhasis and nearly suceeded. Okay... but then what? Takhisis wanted to possess it because she lusts after things as a goddess of desire. But what does it prove once you've conquered everything with the minotaurs? Wouldn't you, as a god of violence and vengence, love to start the whole thing over again? Not really, because there IS no everything. As soon as he conquers the block, he'll conquer the city, as soon as the city, its the country, as soon as the country its the world, as soon as the world he'll start focusing on the next system over. Sargonnas climbs a staircase because there's nothing internal for him. Like Conan he's violent and destructive but totally extroverted. If he did conquer the universe, I imagine he'd go insane and commit suicide rather than try and start it over again.
#6 ferratus Oct 21, 2004 21:14:51	It actually does according to the Appendix, their power is STRENGTHENED by mortal worship as they leave a portion of power behind when they move on in the River of Souls (Chemosh doesn't even allow them to leave and it seems likely that the Dark Queen is similiar) Last I heard that had been retconned, because then the Cataclysm doesn't make much sense. Sargonnas I don't think actually even considers the spot of "King of the Evil gods" actually in dispute, he IS the King, he just needs to convince the others of that. Well, he's a greater god. It is certainly within his power to do that. He could literally pound the stuffing out of Chemosh or Hiddukel if they gave him a reason to. As for proving it through mortals, I think Sargonnas needs to prove his chosen people are masters of the world and his worshippers better than anyone even by proxy. The fact he's always drilled into the minotaurs that they are going to rule the world is a major point in his favor. So why is he undermining them by supporting the elves and the cult of the bloody condor? Also, don't forget in the quasi-canon "Companions" that Sargonnas tried to take over the world before Takhasis and nearly suceeded. Yeah, like I said, I'm tired of "evil god tries to take over the world and nearly succeeds storyline". Like Conan he's violent and destructive but totally extroverted. Are you talking about Conan the Robert E. Howard pulp stories stuff, or Conan the Marvel Comic book stuff?
#7 Charles_Phipps Oct 21, 2004 21:45:39	Last I heard that had been retconned, because then the Cataclysm doesn't make much sense. I don't see it in those terms actually. I see it as the gods simply not caring about losing a few generations of worshippers. They don't NEED the power, its just good to have. Unlike FR where its desperately needed. Well, he's a greater god. It is certainly within his power to do that. He could literally pound the stuffing out of Chemosh or Hiddukel if they gave him a reason to. Exactly why I think worshippers should matter. Otherwise Chemosh is going to be just looking silly for challenging Sargonnas for his activities. So why is he undermining them by supporting the elves and the cult of the bloody condor? Sargonnas desires the worship of everyone in my opinion. If the Elves are able to beat back the minotaurs with his strength then more power to them. His power is not wasted on the weak though. I imagine he'd prefer them fighting TOGETHER against the Knights of Solamnia though. He understands the need for revenge though, even if its against his own people. He respects it. Yeah, like I said, I'm tired of "evil god tries to take over the world and nearly succeeds storyline". Sargonnas isn't the only god though and he's the only god FOR organized, militaristic, and conquering evil. Dragonlance is one of the few campaign worlds where world domination is possible. Morgion and Chemosh couldn't care less along with Hiddukiel. As stated, I'm still annoyed at the Knights of Takhasis. Sargonnas should have been the one behind them....they wouldn't have fallen to chaos after the leaving them but carried on in his memory. Are you talking about Conan the Robert E. Howard pulp stories stuff, or Conan the Marvel Comic book stuff? Whichever reinforces my point, I'm aware of both characters highs and lows and was oversimplifying.
#8 cam_banks Oct 21, 2004 22:44:40	It actually does according to the Appendix, their power is STRENGTHENED by mortal worship as they leave a portion of power behind when they move on in the River of Souls (Chemosh doesn't even allow them to leave and it seems likely that the Dark Queen is similiar). It's not quite like that. Mortals are of vital importance to the gods because they, as souls with free will, enjoy a power the gods do not - the ability to drive the world forward, whether for good, for evil, or for a balance between the two (and wardenship of the world in the process). Each individual carries with him the power of choice, which when surrendered to a deity strengthens the deity's interests in the world. This is not the same as granting the god power - they have vast amounts of power, which they recover on their own. Instead, they require a soul to make a conscious choice in furtherance of the deity's aims, to grow and develop and become a polished gem that reflects the deity's image within it. Once they pass along the River of Souls and into the beyond, the world is changed, and the influence and spiritual resonance of their divine patron (whether willing or not) is increased. It's best to forget completely how the gods of the Realms and Greyhawk et al work in terms of Dragonlance. There are elements to the mythology and cosmology of Krynn that really don't work too well in those terms. Cheers, Cam
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 22, 2004 9:46:08	The subtle Romanesque elements associated with the minotaur empire are not accidental. Sargonnas is functionally similar to the god Mars during the Roman Imperial period. Although Mars was tentatively linked with the more chaotic and brutal Greek god Ares, he was actually a very different deity. Rome, likewise, was very different from the Hellenistic empire. Ancient Rome was an excellent example of a Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil society. They had a society of organized acquistiveness. Conquest and dominion were the driving impulses of the Empire in it's external relations. Internally power politics, often driven by military leaders, were the norm. Taken as a whole the Lawful Evil aspect was very strong, especially in the upper classes, the Senate and the Legions. And so it is with Sargonnas. He is all about power and strength. And power and strength are best demonstrated through rulership. For his worshippers he desires a great empire because that is the worldly demonstration of his greatness as a god.
#10 Charles_Phipps Oct 22, 2004 9:47:50	And so it is with Sargonnas. He is all about power and strength. And power and strength are best demonstrated through rulership. For his worshippers he desires a great empire because that is the worldly demonstration of his greatness as a god. There's room for both. Sargonnas is the violent deity Ferratus describes and whom is worshipped by Ogres while the militant deity I like is actually the god sargas worshipped by minotaurs. Sargonnas doesn't care so long as his worshippers grow and honor him with blood
#11 frostdawn Oct 22, 2004 10:19:44	The other thing to consider is the ever present balance in the world. If Sargonnas is all about bloody battle, rage, vengeance, etc, then he could inspire his followers to seek conquest. The ever present balance happens, war envelopes his followers, massive bloodshed (yeah for Sargonnas) his forces are defeated (a letdown, but the conflict may have been worth it to him). Unlike Takhisis, Sargonnas may wind up reveling in both the climb to power and the war that will inevitably result. Then he could do it all over again. This in mind, I would think Sargonnas would want to conquer possibly even more than Takhisis, particularly if he's conscious of the inevitable balance. Also, I'm kinda curious where everone is getting the idea that in battle Sargonnas would whip the other evil gods? Is there some proof or at least a story somewhere I'm missing?
#12 zombiegleemax Oct 22, 2004 10:47:02	There's room for both. Sargonnas is the violent deity Ferratus describes and whom is worshipped by Ogres while the militant deity I like is actually the god sargas worshipped by minotaurs. Sargonnas doesn't care so long as his worshippers grow and honor him with blood It's also possible that the less-civilized, more primative nature of the ogres themselves shapes the manner in which they perceive Sargonnas. Different people see the gods differently. The humans of Khur worship the gods under different aspects than the humans of Solamnia for example. Sargonnas may essentially be a Mars-like deity. But some of those that worship him, such as Ogres, may be too barbaric themselves to adopt a more strucutured worship akin to races such as minotaurs. Sargonnas, being a battle deity, revels in warfare in general, so he accepts this, as well as the worship he considers his due. As for why he is generally assumed to be stronger than the other Evil gods, there are two points to this. Firstly, he is a greater god, whereas the others are intermediate gods. This gives him a statistical edge. Secondly, he is much more direct-combat-oriented than any of the others in his pantheon. His edge is not huge, but it is there. At least for now.
#13 Charles_Phipps Oct 22, 2004 10:54:21	Sargonnas, being a battle deity, revels in warfare in general, so he accepts this, as well as the worship he considers his due. Precisely. Sargonnas is both Ares AND Mars. It's just like Chemosh can himself be a reasonably affiable chap who loves his Mina, black clothing, depression, and probably wouldn't be that out of place in Seattle while also being the insane goat-headed god of the undead who wishes to conquer all reality before turning it into a graveyard. As for why he is generally assumed to be stronger than the other Evil gods, there are two points to this. Firstly, he is a greater god, whereas the others are intermediate gods. This gives him a statistical edge. Secondly, he is much more direct-combat-oriented than any of the others in his pantheon. His edge is not huge, but it is there. At least for now. Quite so, also he has an Empire of worshippers while everyone else seems to be caught with cults and hence has their pants down to some extent. Zebomin has had the most luck of evil gods building her own cult seperate from the Dark Queen though, I think.
#14 cam_banks Oct 22, 2004 10:58:53	Precisely. Sargonnas is both Ares AND Mars. It's just like Chemosh can himself be a reasonably affiable chap who loves his Mina, black clothing, depression, and probably wouldn't be that out of place in Seattle while also being the insane goat-headed god of the undead who wishes to conquer all reality before turning it into a graveyard. This is right on the money. It's not good to maintain only one view of a deity - there's a lot more to them than just a stereotype. Sargonnas as "bull-headed violent war god" is only one aspect, just as "five-headed evil dragon god" is one aspect of Takhisis. Cheers, Cam
#15 ferratus Oct 22, 2004 12:37:45	If this is true, perhaps we should ditch the Greyhawk and FR notions of the dieties having an alignment on the lawful or chaotic axis. After all, we're pretty much in agreement that Sargonnas could be the god of both barbarians and blackguards, and if we can pretty much have both an Ares and Mars figure as a diety as "healthy" then perhaps we should just call him, and all the other gods, "Evil" and leave it at that. After all, it seems we are starting with portfolio rather than where they fit on the law/chaos axis anyway when writers are coming up with the personalities. A case could be made for Takhisis as both a CE and LE diety. A case could be made for Sargonnas both ways as well. Morgion is described in the DLCS as a NE diety and Hiddukel as a CE diety, even though I feel that should be reversed. In fact, if we consider Sargonnas' flock itself, I can see all of these clerics being valid. Cleric 1: I rules over my domain with a blood-splattered Iron fist. I am a harsh ruler, but fair, and any who cross his authority will feel my vengence. Cleric 2: Cities, homes and families are for the weak. I am a hell-handed warrior and I enjoy the suffering I inflict and crushing my inferiors. Cleric 3: Let the other fools worship Hiddukel and think they're clever. Even on the streets of Palanthas it is violence and fear which open doors and opens wallets. Cleric 4: Mankind is inherently weak, and therefore must be kept in line with punishments designed to deter them from crime. As well, for peace in the community to remain, the wronged must be allowed to take vengence. Cleric 5: Sargonnas is a god who gives me the strength to fight and the courage to die. I have my own code of honour, and I will allow no man to infringe upon it. There you go... a LE, CE, NE, LN and CN clerics of Sargonnas. We've seen all of these haven't we, or concieved of them in our mind's eye at the very least.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

ferratus

Oct 21, 2004 19:11:38

Sargonnas may come across as a big dumb brute, but he's not. He's not chaotic evil. He's lawful evil - he understands and exploits such things as oaths, bonds of loyalty, promises, pacts, and tradition. He understands and exploits honor, especially as a means of delivering a swift and bloody response to a slight or a threat from outside of his influence. Sargonnas is creative, as are all of the gods in Dragonlance associated with fire. True, his methods are brutal, violent and usually result in bloodshed, but he doesn't lash out like an undisciplined barbarian. His is a righteous and focused anger.

Charles_Phipps

Oct 21, 2004 19:31:05

What I'm disputing is that Sargonnas is interested in conquering the world, and I dispute this for two reasons. The first reason is that it simply isn't interesting from a story perspective. We've had three successive stories where a god of evil tried to conquer the world. If we're going to just do it again, what was the point of Takhisis dying? I've had enough.

This is what I disagree with. Sargonnas in my mind has ALWAYS been about conquering the world, a thousand more times than Takhasis honestly. Takhasis wanted to control every last living thing in the entirety of Krynn and beyond because she was a possessive witch....

Sargonnas wants to rule the world because that is the only way that he can prove HIMSELF to be the strongest of all gods. The Violence itself is satisfying to him but ultimately he wishes his followers to be as powerful as he and the only way to do so is to keep them on an ever ascending staircase of conquest.

It's not just Krynn but the UNIVERSE.

Frankly, I'd like to see Sargonnas become morally ambigious to some extent. I'd like to see him show mercy, compassion, and respect for his foes. Takhasis was the one dimensional "I am evil incarnate"

Zebomin, Nuitari, and Chemosh have all shown admirable qualities that ironically might lead to redemption were the gods so inclined (and maybe explain some of paladine's tratment of them). Sargonnas is certainly the one who should be closest in my mind.

I suppose the Knights of Takhasis and Kas' people embody what I think of Sargonnas. He's the Roman Empire, the crushing boot, the Qin Emperor, and the Imperialist

He's the violent nobility to Kiri-Jonilith's white washed.

luis_de_pippo

Oct 21, 2004 20:11:15

The problem Sargonnas had always had, and that prevented him from being truly known and despised, is that he was always under the shadow of Takhisis and that she did not let him do what he truly wanted to do.

The examples of Sargonnas character we have are from one novel that is almost non-canon (The Queen of Darkness in which she destroys him because he angers her) and Galen Benikighted, in which he is shown as a cunning planner and schemer capable of waiting years for the completition of a plan.

Sargonnas had to work through proxies (such as the Scorpion in Weasel´s Luck) because he could not act openly. In fact the history of the minotaur people is the history of the god.

While the god was weak and serving others, so did the minotaurs. As soon as the god was free (Takhisis died) he and his people attacked and proclaimed themselves the masters of Silvanesti.

If that is not a show of how he thinks, nothing is. First Silvanesti, tomorrow Ansalon, next week Krynn.

ferratus

Oct 21, 2004 20:43:01

Sargonnas wants to rule the world because that is the only way that he can prove HIMSELF to be the strongest of all gods.

If Sargonnas felt he needed to prove something, I get the impression he'd deal with it himself. That is really the only reason he would care about ruling heaven. He doesn't care about the position of the top seat like Chemosh or Hiddukel do, he just wants to prove he is the strongest. However, how would he prove that through mortals? Their worship doesn't give the Gods of Krynn power.

The Violence itself is satisfying to him but ultimately he wishes his followers to be as powerful as he and the only way to do so is to keep them on an ever ascending staircase of conquest.

Okay... but then what? Takhisis wanted to possess it because she lusts after things as a goddess of desire. But what does it prove once you've conquered everything with the minotaurs? Wouldn't you, as a god of violence and vengence, love to start the whole thing over again?

Charles_Phipps

Oct 21, 2004 21:06:11

If Sargonnas felt he needed to prove something, I get the impression he'd deal with it himself. That is really the only reason he would care about ruling heaven. He doesn't care about the position of the top seat like Chemosh or Hiddukel do, he just wants to prove he is the strongest. However, how would he prove that through mortals? Their worship doesn't give the Gods of Krynn power.

It actually does according to the Appendix, their power is STRENGTHENED by mortal worship as they leave a portion of power behind when they move on in the River of Souls (Chemosh doesn't even allow them to leave and it seems likely that the Dark Queen is similiar)

Sargonnas I don't think actually even considers the spot of "King of the Evil gods" actually in dispute, he IS the King, he just needs to convince the otherds of that. And I disagree, that position of Top Dog is THE most important thing on his mind.

As for proving it through mortals, I think Sargonnas needs to prove his chosen people are masters of the world and his worshippers better than anyone even by proxy. The fact he's always drilled into the minotaurs that they are going to rule the world is a major point in his favor. Also, don't forget in the quasi-canon "Companions" that Sargonnas tried to take over the world before Takhasis and nearly suceeded.

Okay... but then what? Takhisis wanted to possess it because she lusts after things as a goddess of desire. But what does it prove once you've conquered everything with the minotaurs? Wouldn't you, as a god of violence and vengence, love to start the whole thing over again?

Not really, because there IS no everything. As soon as he conquers the block, he'll conquer the city, as soon as the city, its the country, as soon as the country its the world, as soon as the world he'll start focusing on the next system over. Sargonnas climbs a staircase because there's nothing internal for him.

Like Conan he's violent and destructive but totally extroverted. If he did conquer the universe, I imagine he'd go insane and commit suicide rather than try and start it over again.

ferratus

Oct 21, 2004 21:14:51

It actually does according to the Appendix, their power is STRENGTHENED by mortal worship as they leave a portion of power behind when they move on in the River of Souls (Chemosh doesn't even allow them to leave and it seems likely that the Dark Queen is similiar)

Last I heard that had been retconned, because then the Cataclysm doesn't make much sense.

Sargonnas I don't think actually even considers the spot of "King of the Evil gods" actually in dispute, he IS the King, he just needs to convince the others of that.

Well, he's a greater god. It is certainly within his power to do that. He could literally pound the stuffing out of Chemosh or Hiddukel if they gave him a reason to.

As for proving it through mortals, I think Sargonnas needs to prove his chosen people are masters of the world and his worshippers better than anyone even by proxy. The fact he's always drilled into the minotaurs that they are going to rule the world is a major point in his favor.

So why is he undermining them by supporting the elves and the cult of the bloody condor?

Also, don't forget in the quasi-canon "Companions" that Sargonnas tried to take over the world before Takhasis and nearly suceeded.

Yeah, like I said, I'm tired of "evil god tries to take over the world and nearly succeeds storyline".

Like Conan he's violent and destructive but totally extroverted.

Are you talking about Conan the Robert E. Howard pulp stories stuff, or Conan the Marvel Comic book stuff?

Charles_Phipps

Oct 21, 2004 21:45:39

Last I heard that had been retconned, because then the Cataclysm doesn't make much sense.

I don't see it in those terms actually. I see it as the gods simply not caring about losing a few generations of worshippers. They don't NEED the power, its just good to have. Unlike FR where its desperately needed.

Well, he's a greater god. It is certainly within his power to do that. He could literally pound the stuffing out of Chemosh or Hiddukel if they gave him a reason to.

Exactly why I think worshippers should matter. Otherwise Chemosh is going to be just looking silly for challenging Sargonnas for his activities.

So why is he undermining them by supporting the elves and the cult of the bloody condor?

Sargonnas desires the worship of everyone in my opinion. If the Elves are able to beat back the minotaurs with his strength then more power to them. His power is not wasted on the weak though. I imagine he'd prefer them fighting TOGETHER against the Knights of Solamnia though. He understands the need for revenge though, even if its against his own people. He respects it.

Yeah, like I said, I'm tired of "evil god tries to take over the world and nearly succeeds storyline".

Sargonnas isn't the only god though and he's the only god FOR organized, militaristic, and conquering evil. Dragonlance is one of the few campaign worlds where world domination is possible.

Morgion and Chemosh couldn't care less along with Hiddukiel. As stated, I'm still annoyed at the Knights of Takhasis. Sargonnas should have been the one behind them....they wouldn't have fallen to chaos after the leaving them but carried on in his memory.

Are you talking about Conan the Robert E. Howard pulp stories stuff, or Conan the Marvel Comic book stuff?

Whichever reinforces my point, I'm aware of both characters highs and lows and was oversimplifying.

cam_banks

Oct 21, 2004 22:44:40

It actually does according to the Appendix, their power is STRENGTHENED by mortal worship as they leave a portion of power behind when they move on in the River of Souls (Chemosh doesn't even allow them to leave and it seems likely that the Dark Queen is similiar).

It's not quite like that. Mortals are of vital importance to the gods because they, as souls with free will, enjoy a power the gods do not - the ability to drive the world forward, whether for good, for evil, or for a balance between the two (and wardenship of the world in the process). Each individual carries with him the power of choice, which when surrendered to a deity strengthens the deity's interests in the world. This is not the same as granting the god power - they have vast amounts of power, which they recover on their own. Instead, they require a soul to make a conscious choice in furtherance of the deity's aims, to grow and develop and become a polished gem that reflects the deity's image within it. Once they pass along the River of Souls and into the beyond, the world is changed, and the influence and spiritual resonance of their divine patron (whether willing or not) is increased.

It's best to forget completely how the gods of the Realms and Greyhawk et al work in terms of Dragonlance. There are elements to the mythology and cosmology of Krynn that really don't work too well in those terms.

Cheers,
Cam

zombiegleemax

Oct 22, 2004 9:46:08

The subtle Romanesque elements associated with the minotaur empire are not accidental.

Sargonnas is functionally similar to the god Mars during the Roman Imperial period. Although Mars was tentatively linked with the more chaotic and brutal Greek god Ares, he was actually a very different deity. Rome, likewise, was very different from the Hellenistic empire.

Ancient Rome was an excellent example of a Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil society. They had a society of organized acquistiveness. Conquest and dominion were the driving impulses of the Empire in it's external relations. Internally power politics, often driven by military leaders, were the norm. Taken as a whole the Lawful Evil aspect was very strong, especially in the upper classes, the Senate and the Legions.

And so it is with Sargonnas. He is all about power and strength. And power and strength are best demonstrated through rulership. For his worshippers he desires a great empire because that is the worldly demonstration of his greatness as a god.

#10

Charles_Phipps

Oct 22, 2004 9:47:50

And so it is with Sargonnas. He is all about power and strength. And power and strength are best demonstrated through rulership. For his worshippers he desires a great empire because that is the worldly demonstration of his greatness as a god.

There's room for both. Sargonnas is the violent deity Ferratus describes and whom is worshipped by Ogres while the militant deity I like is actually the god sargas worshipped by minotaurs.

Sargonnas doesn't care so long as his worshippers grow and honor him with blood

#11

frostdawn

Oct 22, 2004 10:19:44

The other thing to consider is the ever present balance in the world. If Sargonnas is all about bloody battle, rage, vengeance, etc, then he could inspire his followers to seek conquest. The ever present balance happens, war envelopes his followers, massive bloodshed (yeah for Sargonnas) his forces are defeated (a letdown, but the conflict may have been worth it to him). Unlike Takhisis, Sargonnas may wind up reveling in both the climb to power and the war that will inevitably result. Then he could do it all over again. This in mind, I would think Sargonnas would want to conquer possibly even more than Takhisis, particularly if he's conscious of the inevitable balance.

Also, I'm kinda curious where everone is getting the idea that in battle Sargonnas would whip the other evil gods? Is there some proof or at least a story somewhere I'm missing?

#12

zombiegleemax

Oct 22, 2004 10:47:02

There's room for both. Sargonnas is the violent deity Ferratus describes and whom is worshipped by Ogres while the militant deity I like is actually the god sargas worshipped by minotaurs.

Sargonnas doesn't care so long as his worshippers grow and honor him with blood

It's also possible that the less-civilized, more primative nature of the ogres themselves shapes the manner in which they perceive Sargonnas.

Different people see the gods differently. The humans of Khur worship the gods under different aspects than the humans of Solamnia for example.

Sargonnas may essentially be a Mars-like deity. But some of those that worship him, such as Ogres, may be too barbaric themselves to adopt a more strucutured worship akin to races such as minotaurs.

Sargonnas, being a battle deity, revels in warfare in general, so he accepts this, as well as the worship he considers his due.

As for why he is generally assumed to be stronger than the other Evil gods, there are two points to this. Firstly, he is a greater god, whereas the others are intermediate gods. This gives him a statistical edge. Secondly, he is much more direct-combat-oriented than any of the others in his pantheon. His edge is not huge, but it is there. At least for now.

#13

Charles_Phipps

Oct 22, 2004 10:54:21

Sargonnas, being a battle deity, revels in warfare in general, so he accepts this, as well as the worship he considers his due.

Precisely. Sargonnas is both Ares AND Mars. It's just like Chemosh can himself be a reasonably affiable chap who loves his Mina, black clothing, depression, and probably wouldn't be that out of place in Seattle while also being the insane goat-headed god of the undead who wishes to conquer all reality before turning it into a graveyard.

As for why he is generally assumed to be stronger than the other Evil gods, there are two points to this. Firstly, he is a greater god, whereas the others are intermediate gods. This gives him a statistical edge. Secondly, he is much more direct-combat-oriented than any of the others in his pantheon. His edge is not huge, but it is there. At least for now.

Quite so, also he has an Empire of worshippers while everyone else seems to be caught with cults and hence has their pants down to some extent. Zebomin has had the most luck of evil gods building her own cult seperate from the Dark Queen though, I think.

#14

cam_banks

Oct 22, 2004 10:58:53

Precisely. Sargonnas is both Ares AND Mars. It's just like Chemosh can himself be a reasonably affiable chap who loves his Mina, black clothing, depression, and probably wouldn't be that out of place in Seattle while also being the insane goat-headed god of the undead who wishes to conquer all reality before turning it into a graveyard.

This is right on the money. It's not good to maintain only one view of a deity - there's a lot more to them than just a stereotype. Sargonnas as "bull-headed violent war god" is only one aspect, just as "five-headed evil dragon god" is one aspect of Takhisis.

Cheers,
Cam

#15

ferratus

Oct 22, 2004 12:37:45

If this is true, perhaps we should ditch the Greyhawk and FR notions of the dieties having an alignment on the lawful or chaotic axis. After all, we're pretty much in agreement that Sargonnas could be the god of both barbarians and blackguards, and if we can pretty much have both an Ares and Mars figure as a diety as "healthy" then perhaps we should just call him, and all the other gods, "Evil" and leave it at that. After all, it seems we are starting with portfolio rather than where they fit on the law/chaos axis anyway when writers are coming up with the personalities.

A case could be made for Takhisis as both a CE and LE diety. A case could be made for Sargonnas both ways as well. Morgion is described in the DLCS as a NE diety and Hiddukel as a CE diety, even though I feel that should be reversed.

In fact, if we consider Sargonnas' flock itself, I can see all of these clerics being valid.

Cleric 1: I rules over my domain with a blood-splattered Iron fist. I am a harsh ruler, but fair, and any who cross his authority will feel my vengence.

Cleric 2: Cities, homes and families are for the weak. I am a hell-handed warrior and I enjoy the suffering I inflict and crushing my inferiors.

Cleric 3: Let the other fools worship Hiddukel and think they're clever. Even on the streets of Palanthas it is violence and fear which open doors and opens wallets.

Cleric 4: Mankind is inherently weak, and therefore must be kept in line with punishments designed to deter them from crime. As well, for peace in the community to remain, the wronged must be allowed to take vengence.

Cleric 5: Sargonnas is a god who gives me the strength to fight and the courage to die. I have my own code of honour, and I will allow no man to infringe upon it.

There you go... a LE, CE, NE, LN and CN clerics of Sargonnas. We've seen all of these haven't we, or concieved of them in our mind's eye at the very least.