Traldar and the Legend of the Eyes
• Traldar and brother are lesser sons of Nithian Pharaoh
• Traldar is a natural leader of men
• Brother of Traldar is favored by Pharaoh
• Neither is in line for the crown
• Arrival in Nithia of Hutaakan ambassadors
• Convincing of Pharaoh to start colonization – including one near Hutaakan homeland to the southeast
• Pharaoh decides to send each of his “lesser” children as colony leaders and have them colonize in far separated areas
• Traldar sends brother to plead a case for them, their family, and friends to stay together
• Pharaoh grants request – instructs group to build colony together
• Pharaoh bestows the desirable land near the Hutaakans
• Group travels west to foot of “impassable” mountain range (near Parsa circa 1000 AD)
• Area is good and bountiful – they stay for 4 years
• Hutaakans arrive and instruct them on how to cross the mountains to an even better land
• Passage found under the mountains
• Need for light during long journey causes brother of Traldar to create 16 clear crystal stones
• Stones touched by an Immortal (should be a strong connection to Pharaoh) so they provide light (continual light spell)
• Dividing of the stones to the 8 major families – stones called “eyes” as they allow them to see in the darkness
• The journey underground begins
• Encounter with evil Immortal – Arik of the Thousand Eyes (possibly in female form – or both?)
• Arik covets the “eyes” of Traldar
• The temptation of Traldar (something severe enough to cause the banishment of Arik)
• Corruption of one “eye” – creation of the Black Opal Eye
• Traldar blinded
• Transformation of companion “eye” – creation of the Fire Opal Eye
• Other 14 “eyes” unaffected
• Escape from underground (cave collapse? agents of Arik? something else?)
• Entry into the new land
• Welcome from the Hutakaans
• Traldar able to use “eyes” to see dangers for his people
Black Opal Eye – Rumored Powers
• Answer one question per month with 50% chance of being correct
• Magical Enhancement (ie. increases magical ability)
• Telepathic Communication
Fire Opal Eye – Rumored Powers
• Detect Magic/Evil 3x per day each
• Detect Invisible/ESP 2x per day each
• Locate Object (5 miles per level of user) 1x per day
• Additional Detection-type spells
People known to have been involved with, or in possession of, one or both Eyes:
• Traldar (both) – 1500 BC
- Both eyes lost at his death (or perhaps buried with his body?)
• Zirchev (both) – 1000 BC
- Discovered both eyes and used to forsee beastman invasion
- set up position of Seer to watch over the Traladarans
- sets up “Watchers” (rangers) to act as helpers to the Seer (“eyes”…”watchers”…get it?)
• Trinkla (Black Opal) – 500 BC
- possible vampire or other undead
- stole Black Opal from current Seer
- why not Fire Opal?
- made ivory dragon claw pedestal
• Elyas (both) – 0 AC
- called as Seer
- recovered Black Opal from Trinkla
- Black Opal lost in the destruction at his death (mountains falling out of the sky and all…)
• Caymen of the Blight Swamp (Black Opal) – 800 AC
- how did it get here from Elias’s tower under the Gray Mountain?
• Kerid Bey (Fire Opal) – 800 AC
- Seer during Thyatian invasion
- joined expedition to Blight Swamp – perhaps heard rumors of the Black Opal Eye being there?
- died in the swamp
• Rosentos (Black Opal) – 900 AC
- leader of Thyatian expedition to Blight Swamp
- became vampire – how?
- did he ever actually have possession of Black Opal or did caymen alone have it? Caymen and Rosentos not on friendly terms in 1000 AC
• Three Sidhe Priestesses (Fire Opal) – 900 AC
- only in possession until new Seer found
- possibly held it since death of Kerid Bey
• “Seer of the Lake of Lost Dreams” (Fire Opal) – 1000 AC
- Sidhe Priestesses give Fire Opal to him
- creation of red steel dragon claw pedestal
- later to be stolen by agents of the Black Eagle Baron – any connection?
- Black Opal still essentially “lost” (in possession of caymen)
:D Jesper
HWR2 - Kingdom of Nithia
AC2 - Treasure of the Hideous One
B3 - Palace of the Silver Princess
DDA3 - Eye of Traldar
B10 - Night's Dark Terror
GAZ1 - Grand Duchy of Karameikos
GAZ2 - Emirates of Ylaruam
WOI:Codex of the Immortals
---"Council of Mystara"
---"Phlarr"
---"Arik"
Hollow World: Dungeon Master's Sourcebook
---"Nithian Empire"
---"Hutaaka Valley"
---"Traldar Kingdoms"
Hollow World: Player's Guide
---"Nithians"
---"Hutaakans"
---"Traldar"
B7 - Rahasia
Seer of the Lake of Lost Dreams
Witches of Radlebb
Karameikan Timeline
Hutaakan Valley HWR
I think that covers all my sources. I try to keep track so I can give credit where credit is due.
It has been my habit through the years to have a flurry of Mystara activity, followed by a long period (sometimes years long) of silence. I recently read "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Conrad (?) which talks about the major elements in mythology throughout the world.
It's Joseph Campbell. He is very inspiring. If you can get your hands on the tapes or DVD I would recommend checking out "The Power of Myth" interviews that he did with Bill Moyers on PBS. There are 6, 1 hour long interviews in which he talks about different aspects of myths from around the world, and how they are all the same. I based a lot of my Blackmoor/Great Rain of Fire mythologies on it.
Shameless plug can be found here:
http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/catas.html
It has been my habit through the years to have a flurry of Mystara activity, followed by a long period (sometimes years long) of silence. I recently read "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Conrad (?) which talks about the major elements in mythology throughout the world. Pretty interesting stuff. It really made me want to write up a mythology of my own, using as many of the elements as I could...so, of course, I made it a Mystaran mythology. Since I recently did some work on Traldar and his "Eyes", I figured it would be a great topic to flesh out. What follows is a rough sketch. Any thoughts?
Okay Steven, you knew this would drag me out of hiding didnt you?
Traldar and his eyes played a central role in my 6 year (real time) long campaign, and continue to be a great interest to me. You have a lot of great ideas here, I'll try and add some comments!
By the way, isn't "Hero with a Thousand Faces" one of George Lucas' main inspirations for Star Wars?
Traldar and the Legend of the Eyes
• Traldar and brother are lesser sons of Nithian Pharaoh
• Traldar is a natural leader of men
• Brother of Traldar is favored by Pharaoh
I'm getting some real Moses-esque associations here. Very nice.
• Neither is in line for the crown
• Arrival in Nithia of Hutaakan ambassadors
• Convincing of Pharaoh to start colonization – including one near Hutaakan homeland to the southeast
• Pharaoh decides to send each of his “lesser” children as colony leaders and have them colonize in far separated areas
• Traldar sends brother to plead a case for them, their family, and friends to stay together
• Pharaoh grants request – instructs group to build colony together
• Pharaoh bestows the desirable land near the Hutaakans
• Group travels west to foot of “impassable” mountain range (near Parsa circa 1000 AD)
• Area is good and bountiful – they stay for 4 years
• Hutaakans arrive and instruct them on how to cross the mountains to an even better land
• Passage found under the mountains
• Need for light during long journey causes brother of Traldar to create 16 clear crystal stones
Hmm...so why are they called the Eyes of Traldar, if it was in fact his brother who created them? In my version of the Traldar story it was speculated that Traldar made the stones from his own eyes. Ofcourse in that version there were only 2 stones, or possibly 3, the third representing Traldars third eye (his soul). I like the possibility of having more "eyes" though, it provides alot of potential for adventures.
• Stones touched by an Immortal (should be a strong connection to Pharaoh) so they provide light (continual light spell)
This doesn't fit very well with the powers the stones have
• Dividing of the stones to the 8 major families – stones called “eyes” as they allow them to see in the darkness
I like the part with one stone for each family. Perhaps if the stones are rediscovered, they can be given to the head of each major Traladaran clan to cause some magical disjunction or something?
• The journey underground begins
• Encounter with evil Immortal – Arik of the Thousand Eyes (possibly in female form – or both?)
Some MML theory held that Arik was originally a Beholder, hence his obsession with eyes....
• Arik covets the “eyes” of Traldar
• The temptation of Traldar (something severe enough to cause the banishment of Arik)
• Corruption of one “eye” – creation of the Black Opal Eye
But wasn't the black Opal Eye in the posession of Elyas before the Witches stole it from him? Why would he keep it if it had been corrupted?
• Traldar blinded
This fits very well with my image of Traldar. Why and how? Perhaps he could use his "eyes" to see even when blind?
• Transformation of companion “eye” – creation of the Fire Opal Eye
• Other 14 “eyes” unaffected
• Escape from underground (cave collapse? agents of Arik? something else?)
• Entry into the new land
• Welcome from the Hutakaans
• Traldar able to use “eyes” to see dangers for his people
Ah, sounds good.
Black Opal Eye – Rumored Powers
• Answer one question per month with 50% chance of being correct
• Magical Enhancement (ie. increases magical ability)
• Telepathic Communication
Good summary.
Fire Opal Eye – Rumored Powers
• Detect Magic/Evil 3x per day each
• Detect Invisible/ESP 2x per day each
• Locate Object (5 miles per level of user) 1x per day
• Additional Detection-type spells
In my version, this eye was a Crystal, not an Opal. I think that is what it was described as in Eye of Traldar, though I cant remember if it was or if it was just my invention...
People known to have been involved with, or in possession of, one or both Eyes:
Nice list! I like having that stuff organized. I have a couple of comments though...
• Traldar (both) – 1500 BC
- Both eyes lost at his death (or perhaps buried with his body?)
• Zirchev (both) – 1000 BC
- Discovered both eyes and used to forsee beastman invasion
- set up position of Seer to watch over the Traladarans
- sets up “Watchers” (rangers) to act as helpers to the Seer (“eyes”…”watchers”…get it?)
• Trinkla (Black Opal) – 500 BC
- possible vampire or other undead
- stole Black Opal from current Seer
- why not Fire Opal?
- made ivory dragon claw pedestal
• Elyas (both) – 0 AC
- called as Seer
- recovered Black Opal from Trinkla
- Black Opal lost in the destruction at his death (mountains falling out of the sky and all…)
• Caymen of the Blight Swamp (Black Opal) – 800 AC
- how did it get here from Elias’s tower under the Gray Mountain?
Is this from AC7?
• Kerid Bey (Fire Opal) – 800 AC
- Seer during Thyatian invasion
- joined expedition to Blight Swamp – perhaps heard rumors of the Black Opal Eye being there?
- died in the swamp
• Rosentos (Black Opal) – 900 AC
- leader of Thyatian expedition to Blight Swamp
- became vampire – how?
- did he ever actually have possession of Black Opal or did caymen alone have it? Caymen and Rosentos not on friendly terms in 1000 AC
Again, from AC7? (The adventure accompanying the DM's screen?)
• Three Sidhe Priestesses (Fire Opal) – 900 AC
- only in possession until new Seer found
- possibly held it since death of Kerid Bey
I always wanted to do something more with the Priestesses. I invented them as a parallell to the Three Fairies from Arthurian myth who are said to care for Arthur in Avalon and tend his wounds untill he is ready to return. Similarly, the Priestesses are servants of Halav. I used the Halav/Arthur parallell quite alot IMC.
• “Seer of the Lake of Lost Dreams” (Fire Opal) – 1000 AC
- Sidhe Priestesses give Fire Opal to him
- creation of red steel dragon claw pedestal
- later to be stolen by agents of the Black Eagle Baron – any connection?
- Black Opal still essentially “lost” (in possession of caymen)
The Sidhe could have been the ones who created the pedestal. Perhaps they did so because unlike his predecessors, the current Seer has some special purpose.
I still dont have a conclusive theory on how Bargle's men managed to steal the Eye. I suspect the Witches of Dymrak may have been involved. Their power is balanced by the presence of the Seer. Perhaps they wanted to get away with something? Hmmm....I'm thinking the Sverdlov character could play a role in this. I developed him somewhat in the "Masked one Unmasked" short story I wrote which is available on the Vaults.
The Blight Swamp isn't very far from Halag. I doubt if the things going on there were outside of Bargle's knowledge.
Thoughts?
Håvard
By the way, isn't "Hero with a Thousand Faces" one of George Lucas' main inspirations for Star Wars?
Yes, and if I understand things correctly Joseph Campbell was one of Georges good friends and somewhat of a mentor to him.
Okay Steven, you knew this would drag me out of hiding didnt you?
If I have to come out of hiding, so do you
Besides, since I used a lot of your writings as inspiration, I value your opinion on these matters. I've really taken to the idea of fleshing out the role of Zirchev and bringing him to the forefront of the Beastman Wars instead of Halav (BLASPHEMY!), which is why I've really gotten into this of late.I'm getting some real Moses-esque associations here. Very nice.
I actually hadn't noticed that. I was going off a different set of brothers from a different religious text...but I guess that is what Joseph Campbell's book is all about.
Hmm...so why are they called the Eyes of Traldar, if it was in fact his brother who created them? In my version of the Traldar story it was speculated that Traldar made the stones from his own eyes. Ofcourse in that version there were only 2 stones, or possibly 3, the third representing Traldars third eye (his soul). I like the possibility of having more "eyes" though, it provides alot of potential for adventures.
Okay, here is my rationale: The "Eyes of Traldar" (capital letters) refer to the set given to Traldar as the political leader (for lack of a better term) of the family. His brother created them and had them blessed because he was more of the spiritual leader of the whole colony.
This doesn't fit very well with the powers the stones have
Yes, I intended the original 16 stones to be very, very, VERY low-powered artifacts. I thought that this could take place before Nithia became a huge magical power. Something simple and practical...not just allowing them to see in the dark but giving a...I don't know...spiritual comfort? Let the colonists know that the Immortals are looking out for them.
I like the part with one stone for each family. Perhaps if the stones are rediscovered, they can be given to the head of each major Traladaran clan to cause some magical disjunction or something?
Yes! Instead of a magical effect, there would be fueds between the major Traladaran families of who would get them - which families are the oldest and then by association have the "right" to an Immortal artifact. That is, if they even knew about the eyes...they're not exactly well known. Then there comes the possibility of frauds, etc.
Some MML theory held that Arik was originally a Beholder, hence his obsession with eyes....
Oooo...has some possibilities. I'm not sure on a lot of the involvement of Arik. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that whatever happens between him and Traldar is NOT what got him banished...but it is just one more log-on-the-fire, so to speak.
But wasn't the black Opal Eye in the posession of Elyas before the Witches stole it from him? Why would he keep it if it had been corrupted?
Okay, corrupted wasn't a great choice of words. Although I see some kind of connection between the Black Opal and some kind of evil (Trinkla and Rosentos) perhaps when the two eyes are together the "corruption" is lessened. At any rate, I imagine the power of the two together are much stronger than one alone.
Good summary.
The summary of the powers are just a list of the eyes from the various sources. I feel tempted to change them around to fit my view of the Seer better, but I haven't delved into that too much yet.
In my version, this eye was a Crystal, not an Opal. I think that is what it was described as in Eye of Traldar, though I cant remember if it was or if it was just my invention...
Let's see...from DDA3: "The Eye of Traldar is a yellow-orange gem, the size of a large hen's egg, mounted in a dragon's claw setting ofashioned from toughened, red gold." Artistic license is always a GMs perogative, though.
Is this from AC7?
It's from AC2 (Combat Shield and Mini-adventure). AC7 is the Master Player Screen with a different adventure, the Spindle of Heaven. The AC2 adventure (Treasure of the Hideous One) is where Trinkla, Rosentos, Kerid Bey, the bone carved dragon-claw pedestal, and some of the powers of the Black Opal Eye (although in the adventure it is called "The Essence-Orb of Trinkla, the Black Sage"). I had to make a few minor changes, but on the whole, it is a great little adventure.
One thing that still bothers me is the Elyas connection. If you play out the Rahasia module, the Black Opal Eye is still in the tower instead of in the Blight Swamp where I want it :p. I suppose you can use the standard "This adventure takes place in the distant past" - but there are still questions of how to get it from Elyas's tower to the Swamp.
I always wanted to do something more with the Priestesses. I invented them as a parallell to the Three Fairies from Arthurian myth who are said to care for Arthur in Avalon and tend his wounds untill he is ready to return. Similarly, the Priestesses are servants of Halav. I used the Halav/Arthur parallell quite alot IMC.
I have to claim ignorance of most of that. I just like the idea. :D
The Sidhe could have been the ones who created the pedestal. Perhaps they did so because unlike his predecessors, the current Seer has some special purpose.
Perhaps...I really liked the idea of the red steel pedestal instead of the red gold one. Then again, there is no reason that the Sidhe couldn't get ahold of red steel...actually some good possibilities there.
As for the current Seer having a special purpose (anyone seen the move The Jerk?), my intention was to have a player become the next Seer as a precursor to the trial of Immortality. Something about a myth/legend/historical fact that the Seers who reunited the two eyes all became Immortals (okay, Elyas isn't an Immortal...or is he...?) I have to think some more on this and work out the details.
I still dont have a conclusive theory on how Bargle's men managed to steal the Eye. I suspect the Witches of Dymrak may have been involved. Their power is balanced by the presence of the Seer. Perhaps they wanted to get away with something? Hmmm....I'm thinking the Sverdlov character could play a role in this. I developed him somewhat in the "Masked one Unmasked" short story I wrote which is available on the Vaults.
The Blight Swamp isn't very far from Halag. I doubt if the things going on there were outside of Bargle's knowledge.
The Witches are certainly involved...but I don't know how or why. I was going to explore that more in the next installment of the Legend of the Eyes: Zirchev. Then we get into the rediscovery of the eyes, the Beastman Wars (with the possible connection of Ranivorus being the beastman king), the first Seer, the Watchers, etc. Lots to work on there.
I'll have to read your story and see what lights pop on. I would imagine Bargle would have extensive knowledge of the surrounding areas, but I always thought of the Blight Swamp as a great "unknown". Or, perhaps, Bargle does indeed know of the Black Opal Eye and it's history...which is why he wanted the Seer's eye to begin with...
As I mentioned, this is still in rough draft form - thank you for your comments! As always, they help get that spark of creativity going.
If I have to come out of hiding, so do you
I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. I have alot of stuff on my mind these days (exams and stuff), so I havent been able to keep up discussions as regularly as I like to. Anyways, thanks for your kind words. It seems that we have similar ideas about Mystara and are interested in many of the same aspects of the setting so getting a chance to discuss these elements is really useful for me aswell
On Moses:
I actually hadn't noticed that. I was going off a different set of brothers from a different religious text...but I guess that is what Joseph Campbell's book is all about.
Pretty much. But I think the idea of the Traldar leaving the Nithian lands always had similarities with the Exodus, even if never spelled out to that extent. In fact that may even have subconciously influenced me when I came up with the Traldar character too.
Okay, here is my rationale: The "Eyes of Traldar" (capital letters) refer to the set given to Traldar as the political leader (for lack of a better term) of the family. His brother created them and had them blessed because he was more of the spiritual leader of the whole colony.
Interesting. I am still not really sure what role Traldar's brother fits. Oh, and another association: Romulus and Remus, the twins who are concidered the founders of Rome.
Yes, I intended the original 16 stones to be very, very, VERY low-powered artifacts. I thought that this could take place before Nithia became a huge magical power. Something simple and practical...not just allowing them to see in the dark but giving a...I don't know...spiritual comfort? Let the colonists know that the Immortals are looking out for them.
Okay, works for me
Yes! Instead of a magical effect, there would be fueds between the major Traladaran families of who would get them - which families are the oldest and then by association have the "right" to an Immortal artifact. That is, if they even knew about the eyes...they're not exactly well known. Then there comes the possibility of frauds, etc.
Yeah, I see alot of possibilities for these things...
Perhaps fake stones show up every now and then is King Stefan's recurring nightmare come true?
Oooo...has some possibilities. I'm not sure on a lot of the involvement of Arik. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that whatever happens between him and Traldar is NOT what got him banished...but it is just one more log-on-the-fire, so to speak.
I am thinking his bannishment was related to the destruction of Nithia. But like you suggest, he probably wasn't that popular to begin with
Okay, corrupted wasn't a great choice of words. Although I see some kind of connection between the Black Opal and some kind of evil (Trinkla and Rosentos) perhaps when the two eyes are together the "corruption" is lessened. At any rate, I imagine the power of the two together are much stronger than one alone.
Interesting....
The summary of the powers are just a list of the eyes from the various sources. I feel tempted to change them around to fit my view of the Seer better, but I haven't delved into that too much yet.
I also never got around to fully developing the Eyes. I don't see the need to feel to restricted by canon on this one since the details from DDA3 really didn't make it seem like such an interesting item.
Let's see...from DDA3: "The Eye of Traldar is a yellow-orange gem, the size of a large hen's egg, mounted in a dragon's claw setting ofashioned from toughened, red gold." Artistic license is always a GMs perogative, though.
I have no problem with that actually
It's from AC2 (Combat Shield and Mini-adventure). AC7 is the Master Player Screen with a different adventure, the Spindle of Heaven. The AC2 adventure (Treasure of the Hideous One) is where Trinkla, Rosentos, Kerid Bey, the bone carved dragon-claw pedestal, and some of the powers of the Black Opal Eye (although in the adventure it is called "The Essence-Orb of Trinkla, the Black Sage"). I had to make a few minor changes, but on the whole, it is a great little adventure.
AC2, right. I actually ran that adventure years ago, though I've forgotten most of the details. I'll see if I can find it.
One thing that still bothers me is the Elyas connection. If you play out the Rahasia module, the Black Opal Eye is still in the tower instead of in the Blight Swamp where I want it :p. I suppose you can use the standard "This adventure takes place in the distant past" - but there are still questions of how to get it from Elyas's tower to the Swamp.
Hmmm... I have a theory on how the Eye of Traldar came to Fort Doom (Involving Sverdlov) that I'll post later, but how the other eye would have made it to the Blight Swamp I don't know. I think Bargle could easily be involved though....
Sidhe Priestesses:
I have to claim ignorance of most of that. I just like the idea. :D
Well that's where it came from. Anyways, I found it a more interesting take on the Isle of Lost Dreams than the one presented in B10.
Perhaps...I really liked the idea of the red steel pedestal instead of the red gold one. Then again, there is no reason that the Sidhe couldn't get ahold of red steel...actually some good possibilities there.
Indeed. The Sidhe do not like Iron, so Red Steel could be a good substitute for them...
As for the current Seer having a special purpose (anyone seen the move The Jerk?), my intention was to have a player become the next Seer as a precursor to the trial of Immortality. Something about a myth/legend/historical fact that the Seers who reunited the two eyes all became Immortals (okay, Elyas isn't an Immortal...or is he...?) I have to think some more on this and work out the details.
Not familiar with that movie
I had my player become the seer aswell, through defeating the existing Seer in a duel and making a deal with Oberon afterwards. Loads of fun
The Witches are certainly involved...but I don't know how or why. I was going to explore that more in the next installment of the Legend of the Eyes: Zirchev. Then we get into the rediscovery of the eyes, the Beastman Wars (with the possible connection of Ranivorus being the beastman king), the first Seer, the Watchers, etc. Lots to work on there.
Very interesting! I also like the Ravinous/Beastman King connection.
I'll have to read your story and see what lights pop on. I would imagine Bargle would have extensive knowledge of the surrounding areas, but I always thought of the Blight Swamp as a great "unknown". Or, perhaps, Bargle does indeed know of the Black Opal Eye and it's history...which is why he wanted the Seer's eye to begin with...
I think Bargle would have some knowledge of the Eyes. The Blight Swamp might be out of his area of influence however, due to the presence of the Vampire there. But Vampires can be bargained with....
As I mentioned, this is still in rough draft form - thank you for your comments! As always, they help get that spark of creativity going.
Any time
Håvard
I'm getting some real Moses-esque associations here. Very nice.
mmmm... Maybe from his "Prince-of-Egypt" version... The Biblical Moses had no brother (from Pharaoh's side, that is).
mmmm... Maybe from his "Prince-of-Egypt" version... The Biblical Moses had no brother (from Pharaoh's side, that is).
Hehe, yes that may be where I got it from. :P
Did they make that up in that movie? I was sure that came from some other sources too though...
Anyways, the whole, leaving Egypt thing was the main thing that got me thinking about the Exodus, but having a couple of brothers involved really works for me
By the way, there has been alot of discussions concerning the origins of the Traldars on the MML these past few days. Might be worth checking out as it could have some relevance for this topic. James Mishler just posted a massive document on the Traldars' entry into Proto-Karameikos for instance...
Håvard
By the way, there has been alot of discussions concerning the origins of the Traldars on the MML these past few days. Might be worth checking out as it could have some relevance for this topic. James Mishler just posted a massive document on the Traldars' entry into Proto-Karameikos for instance...
I haven't been on the MML for YEARS. I'm interested in what James came up with, although I'll have to wait until it is posted on the Vaults. However, that does send a few sparks into the brain cells...
If I remember right, wasn't the pre-Traladaran region occupied by a Taymora civilization? Or was that further south in the area around where Minrothad/Ierendi/et al. are located? If they were further up on the mainland, I have some great ideas (pending timeline research to make sure it fits) about the Traldar clan meeting up with one or two sole survivors (who don't speak the Traldar/Nithian language) and perhaps a record of Taymora (that can't be translated...yet).
I haven't been on the MML for YEARS. I'm interested in what James came up with, although I'll have to wait until it is posted on the Vaults. However, that does send a few sparks into the brain cells...
I still have all the posts saved. If you give me your email addy, I could forward them to you if you are interested. Ofcourse, James has been known to lurk these boards, so he might comment on this himself...
If I remember right, wasn't the pre-Traladaran region occupied by a Taymora civilization? Or was that further south in the area around where Minrothad/Ierendi/et al. are located? If they were further up on the mainland, I have some great ideas (pending timeline research to make sure it fits) about the Traldar clan meeting up with one or two sole survivors (who don't speak the Traldar/Nithian language) and perhaps a record of Taymora (that can't be translated...yet).
From what I understand, Taymora covered the southern parts of current Karameikos and the lands that used to be south of that again. From James' last postings quite a few Taymorans did survive the destruction of that empire, but I'm sure we could find some ways to get your ideas to fit aswell if you want to share them *hint* *hint*
Håvard
Hehe, yes that may be where I got it from. :P
Did they make that up in that movie? I was sure that came from some other sources too though...
Anyways, the whole, leaving Egypt thing was the main thing that got me thinking about the Exodus, but having a couple of brothers involved really works for me
Well, I'll check out tomorrow if there is any Jewish commentary in that direction.
Meanwhile, however, I would guess that this is a Spielbergian extension of the sibling-rivalry theme from Genesis to Exodus...
Well, I'll check out tomorrow if there is any Jewish commentary in that direction.
Meanwhile, however, I would guess that this is a Spielbergian extension of the sibling-rivalry theme from Genesis to Exodus...
According to both Jewish tradition and the Old Testament, Moses and Aaron were indeed brothers. Aaron, who was appointed as Moses' spokesperson, was also the older of the two. So who's older, Traldar or his brother? The relationship between the two could be very similar to that of Moses and Aaron; Traldar the leader and his brother the spokesperson. Btw, has a name been given to the brother yet? I haven't noticed one.
According to both Jewish tradition and the Old Testament, Moses and Aaron were indeed brothers. Aaron, who was appointed as Moses' spokesperson, was also the older of the two.
Oh. I didn't mean Aaron - I was talking about Moses' "Egyptian" brother: Another son of Pharaoh - given to him by Steven Spielberg in "Prince of Egypt".
From what I understand, Taymora covered the southern parts of current Karameikos and the lands that used to be south of that again. From James' last postings quite a few Taymorans did survive the destruction of that empire, but I'm sure we could find some ways to get your ideas to fit aswell if you want to share them *hint* *hint*
Okay...here's what the archeologists have dug up:
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[i]Possible interpretation of broken tablet series 641:[/i]
“And it came to pass in the days of Traldar, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of the Eyes.”
“And they gave an account of one Tumur, and the slain of his people. And Tumur was discovered by the Hutaakans; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.”
“It also spake a few words concerning his fathers; And his first parents came out from the lands of the Taymora at the time the Immortals confounded the lands of the people; and the severity of the Immortals fell upon them according to their judgments which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land southward.”
[i]Portion of an ancient journal (authenticity unknown) of an unnamed personage as recovered by adventurers in the Cruth Lowlands:[/i]
“Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that forty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Nithia, they we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us…”
And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Nithia but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of the…”
And for a testimony that the things they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings…”
“And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.”
“And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust; and there is no one in the land that is able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates.”
“…I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language; for, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came; or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction.”
Btw, has a name been given to the brother yet? I haven't noticed one.
No name as yet...just "The Brother of Traldar"
Oh. I didn't mean Aaron - I was talking about Moses' "Egyptian" brother: Another son of Pharaoh - given to him by Steven Spielberg in "Prince of Egypt".
Doh! *slaps hand on forehead*
Sorry, I haven't seen that movie yet. So now that I'm "in the loop" regarding what's in the movie, according to Jewish tradition again, Moses was the only one in line for succession to the crown of Egypt (apparently this saved his life at least once) and so I'd say it's not likely that there were any Egyptian brothers of Moses; either by blood or adoption.
As for the current Seer having a special purpose (anyone seen the move The Jerk?)
Not familiar with that movie
When the main character was a child, his mom told him his...um..."boy parts" were for a Special Purpose. As a grown up, he meets a woman who says she is looking for a man with a special purpose. He then shouts out loud, "[u]I[/u] have a Special Purpose!!" :P
... according to Jewish tradition again, Moses was the only one in line for succession to the crown of Egypt (apparently this saved his life at least once) and so I'd say it's not likely that there were any Egyptian brothers of Moses; either by blood or adoption.
Well, Exodus 11:5 does mention "Pharaoh's first-born son", but that just might be a figure of speech in that context.
Well, I'll check out tomorrow if there is any Jewish commentary in that direction.
Meanwhile, however, I would guess that this is a Spielbergian extension of the sibling-rivalry theme from Genesis to Exodus...
Actually, the portrayal of Rameses and Moses as brothers in "Prince of Egypt" hearkens back to Cecil B. DeMille's "The Ten Commandments", which was in turn based upon the quite prevalent idea among Biblical scholars that Rameses II was probably the Pharaoh of the Exodus, who is never directly named in the Bible. The idea comes from the names of the cities that he has the Hebrew slaves build, very similar to ones that were built in the reign of Ramses II.
If Moses' deeds of power were done during the reign of Rameses, and he grew up in the previous Pharaoh's house, that would have had him raised in the court of Seti I, who would have been the baby-killer from the first part of the story. Therefore, it is likely that he was raised as a sort of adopted brother to Ramses, if that chronology is to be accepted anyway. There are a few inconsistencies with it. Moses, of course, would never have taken the throne because he was not Pharoah's natural son.