Greyhawk Monk Orders

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Oct 22, 2004 2:40:40
Hi,

I've read some of the threads here to find that many people are looking for infos about Greyhawk monastic orders. Well, I'm a DM using the Greyhawk world since 1983, and I've got some infos for those who wants to use them.

The official AD&D 2nd Ed adventure WG8 Fate of Istus gives more facts about the Scarlet Brotherhood and introduces three new monk orders (p.110- 111). The new orders are not very well documented, but are a start. For simplicity sake, I will transcript the exacts infos, and complement on how I have adapted these to my campaign. Foremost, few points must be stated beforehand:

1) you must know that in this product, the Scarlet Brotherhood learned their martial art from "alien people who bore a disturbing ressemblance to the Bakluni". In fact, they were oriental monks. They just entered the Plateau via magical portal, in 489 CY, and didn't have to power to go back to their lands. A couple of monasteries and villages have followed in the portal. The leader of the Scarlet Order of the time, one Irith Van, concluded an alliance with them. The presence of the orientals were kept secret.

2) according to this product, there is no temples to the Deities in Hesuel Ilshar. Only small shrines to the lawful, neutral and evil suloise Deities. "The Brotherhood does not encourage observance of these deities, except as expression of the Suel culture, and regards clerics of even suitable Suel powers with some suspicion." I know this is contradictory with the TSR11364 The Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook. I personnally prefer the first product regarding faith in these lands.

Here is the reference:
"Of the original intruders from Kara-Tur, not all allied themselves with the Scarlet Brotherhood. The Sapphire Celestials, of lawful good alignment, committed themselves to serene contemplation until such time as a gate to their homeland should reappear, and choose isolation from all outside influence. The Black Order was of similar alignment but took on a more active role, sending secret missions over the entire continent and establishing small enclaves beyond the Tilvanot Plateau all in search of a new homeward route. The Golden Monks, of lawful neutral alignment, chose to simply exists on the Tilvanot Plateau in such harmony as might be possible. Of these three schools, none had the success of the High Scarlet Order, wich had found an organization with similar ideas to its own and even (pershaps not by chance) the same colors. The Saphire Celestials, the Black Order and the Golden Monks have been driven into the wilder and more isolated regions at the edge of theTilvanot Plateau, but they maintain their progression of Masters in these secret monasteries and have taken in and trained both escaped slaves and renegades suelites. All have hidden representatives in Hesuel Ilshar. These seldom take any overt action, but are primarily observers."

Based on these infos, I have designed the different monk orders of my Greyhawk campaign. In fact, one of my player played a 1st Ed monk, so I needed to detail such organisation. I always liked the idea that monks are not religious character. In history, the fighting monks were more enlightened than religious. They follow strict discipline and philosophy. So, in my campaign, monks are not clergymen (or women).

I also like to define Monk Orders with the martial art they practice. In fact, with little research, every real martial art have its philosophy. It is simple to translate this in AD&D world. Occidental martial arts were not really developped into fighting monasteries... But oriental's are.

So, in my campaign, I have 5 Monk Orders existing in occident (Flanaess):
1. The Magni Order: This order is based solely on the AD&D 1st Ed monk class. It is pretty much the same as the 3rd Ed monk. They are Lawful Good, and are actively opposed to the Scarlet Brotherhood. They follow a philosophy similar to those of Taï Chi Chuan and Tao Te King (non-violent manners, fight only when forced too, never strike first).

2. The Scarlet Order: Pretty known by all Greyhawk campaigner... They are Oriental Adventure 1st Ed based monk, doing Dragon Style Kung-Fu. They are Lawful Evil (and the most powerful), and follow the philosophy of Divinity of Mankind.

3. The Black Order: They are Oriental Adventure 1st Ed based monk, doing Tiger Style Kung-Fu. In oriental esoterism, the Dragon and the Tiger are enemies. The Black Order "Tigers" "hunts" the Scarlet Brotherhood, the "Dragons". They are Lawful Good, and follow the virtues of Generosity, Courage, Loyalty, Thruth and Patience.

4. The Celestial Saphires: They are Oriental Adventure 1st Ed based monk, doing Kali (or Escrima). They follow the philosophy of the 1000's ancestors.

5. The Golden Monks: They are Oriental Adventure 1st Ed based monk, doing Pencak Silat. They are Lawful neutral, and follow the philosophy of Divinity of Mankind.

All these martial art types are detailed in some old Dragon Magazines. I've found that the philosophy of the Divinity of Mankind (found in the Complete Priest Handbook, AD&D 2nd Ed) really work well with the Scarlet Brotherhood. It says that humans, beings created in the likeness of the gods, are essentially divine themselves. They can transcend and become like gods. It sound really cool for the Scarlet Brotherhood ("Who cares for those Gods, cause we are all Gods. Lesser races must bow to us, cause we are divines").

Oh, yeah, the Golden Monks also share this philosophy. But they follow it in a lawful neutral manner, so they don't think they are above others. They try to enlighten others to achieve perfection, wich is the state nearest of the divine ascension.

Hope this may help.

Fearghal
#2

Sysane

Oct 22, 2004 8:54:08
There was also the Splintered Mind as detailed in Dragon Magazine (don't remember the issue #). They are a group that are opposed to the Scarlet Brotherhood. The founders are former S.B. monks and psychic warriors who saw the error in the Brotherhoods ways. Their ranks consist mostly of monks. psions, and psychic warriors.
#3

Monteblanco

Nov 03, 2004 5:12:46
In my game I ruled that all monks are, in one way or another, related to the Scarlet Brotherhood. As such, independent monks learned their art from renegade monks from the Scarlet Brotherhood, which actively hunt them.
#4

romulus_lonewolf

Nov 03, 2004 9:38:31
In my game I ruled that all monks are, in one way or another, related to the Scarlet Brotherhood. As such, independent monks learned their art from renegade monks from the Scarlet Brotherhood, which actively hunt them.

That's how I was planning to handle the concept of Monks in my campaign as well; the Flanaess Monk tradition originated in the Scarlet Brotherhood, but rebels who left the Brotherhood established their own Monastic Schools in different locations across the Flanaess.

...I'm also considering giving Elves and Dwarves ancient monastic traditions of their own, generally little known by outsiders.
#5

zombiegleemax

Nov 03, 2004 12:52:59
IMC asian style monks have been banned. I am aware that the default for the Scarlet Brotherhood agents is the PHB Monk, but hard experience has shown that eastern style characters do not belong in my Greyhawk.

I have had 4 different players start monk characters. Each person had varying degrees of background- one had "I was an orphan" , one was an ex-patriated Scarlet Brother, one was the student of the Bakluni martial arts, and the last was from an order founded by an ex-Scarlet Brother (long and involved story). Each person, regardless of how much effort went into their characters and backgrounds, grew bored with the monk and eventually begged to create a different character after only a few sessions.

My campaigns are typically European flavored and the oriental monk archtype simply does not do well.

Instead, we have adopted a Friar class based mostly on the European monastic orders. The Friar's role is to interceed in the back byways and out of reach areas that do not ordinarily warrant a full clergy member (cleric). These Friars gets some clerical spells (bard progression), but are much more worldly than your typical cleric. They serve in many ways as their historical counterparts did- as scribes, lay-clergy, and rural priests.

The European monks, with their eyes more firmly on the here-and-now than on the here-after, fit amazingly well into the typical peasant's world. These Friars form the bridge between some of the stuffier churches (Heironeous) and the base worshippers.

Although most religions will simply add the Friar as sort of an "extra layer", some religions, like Olidamarra (sp?) the Laughing Rogue and Boccob the Uncaring, fairly shout for the worldly outlook of the Friar as primary servants.

I have ruled that while there may be eastern style martial arts in the world, the monk class is banned.

NOTE: MY PLAYERS STOP READING HERE:

Most SB agents are actually Friars. It did not seem to make sense that underneath those distinctly Franciscan robes were coiled springs of asian death.

More likely, these robed men are simply wise, personable folk in touch with both the divine and the everyday world, perfect advisers to kings and able agents for the Brotherhood.
#6

zombiegleemax

Nov 04, 2004 0:02:57
On his fan website, Ernest Mueller used to have several monk orders that incorporated animal-style martial arts.

Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan indicated that the ancient Olman Empire had an monk tradition. Two of its practitioners could be released from stasis. I think they and their students may form one of the secret causes of the slave revolt in the Hold of the Sea Princes...
#7

zombiegleemax

Nov 04, 2004 9:32:20
I'm horrible with monkly types, and anything oriental in general.

However, I did just publish Dethand's new monkish orders of the flanaess submission @ Canonfire, if it would be of any interest to this thread.
#8

zombiegleemax

Nov 04, 2004 10:29:59
Of course. Fate of Istus also had Hesuel Ilshar as a rectilinear grid. The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement gives a far better treatment of the city and the region, and says that the SB and their monastic tradition reach back to the Suel Imperium.
That said - if you have oriental type monks crossing from the strongly oriental sounding Celestial Empire from the Dragon Annual Map 1 into the Suel Imperium and imparting their wisdom to the Suel, then that might work.

P.
#9

zombiegleemax

Nov 04, 2004 11:58:49
In 1996, Erik Mona penned a very detailed account of the development of monks, psions, and psychic warriors. See "Baklunish Delights (Part One): Xan Yae and Zuoken" in Oerth Journal issue 3. The download on Canonfire is available at http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=15.

Parts of it were incorporated into the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

IMO there's no reason to limit one's imagination regarding the development of monks in the Flanaess to the general historical fact that unarmed "martial arts" developed predominantly in Asia. While savate is sometimes mentioned but often regarded as peripheral, the history of capoeria provides persuasive evidence that unnarmed martial arts developed outside of Asia. Martial arts develop where people's social conditions require them to devise ways of fighting without conventional weapons.

Where enough time passes, these martial arts may develop traditions that branch into the philosophical/mystical. Alternatively, the development of the physical regimes/techniques may draw upon existing philosophies or coincide with the development of "new" ones.

Bringing it back to Oerth, there's no need for monks in the Flanaess ultimately to derive from some "oriental" empire east of the Civilized Bakluna. Erik has proposed an origin for Baklunish and Suloise martial arts. The Flan, Olman, and Touv monk traditions may (or may not) have different origins.

It's up to your imagination.
#10

zombiegleemax

Nov 23, 2004 9:48:16
IMC asian style monks have been banned. I am aware that the default for the Scarlet Brotherhood agents is the PHB Monk, but hard experience has shown that eastern style characters do not belong in my Greyhawk.

What about non-'asian style' monks? For my campaign I developed an order of monks devoted to Pelor. Instead of flashy kung-fu, their style is is mostly grappling and wrestling mixed with european boxing. They completly devote themselves to the development of their bodies and spirits for the glory of Pelor. Typically they look like a bunch of Greco-Roman wrestlers, rather than shaolin monks.

I agree with Tizok, you're only limited by your imagination. ;)
#11

lincoln_hills

Dec 01, 2004 16:59:01
As far as the never-ending quest for "canon" (whatever that means) monks goes, I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned a certain prominent Under-Oerth-dwelling race whose "police" are monks of surprising prowess. Those of you who've adventured in olde-school module D2 know of whom I speak.

For those who have less concern for canon, I should mention that after I decided the Baklunish had unarmed martial artists, I wrote out a variant monk class. The major changes - aside from altering the flavor by drawing names from a more Vedic/Arabian tradition of meditation and discipline - was in the "favored monk weapons". You should find the necessary changes quite minor.

Weapon proficiencies for my Baklunish monks - if I remember correctly - were: club, dagger, punching dagger, kukri, dart, and quarterstaff: also, since I have the Arms and Equipment Guide, I added the tiger-claw, sapara and chakram. (The weapons named are mostly Indonesian rather than Arabian, but there's a bit of India in the Baklunish lands, as some of you may have noticed.) Only the quarterstaff, kukri and tiger claw could be used at the superior attack rate. (I'm surprised the quarterstaff didn't "make it" into the Oriental monk's better-attack-rate list: it's definitely the weapon I associate most with them.)
#12

thanael

Dec 02, 2004 2:57:52
In Bastion of Faith which gives an F&A style rundown of Heironeous clergy there´s a small bit about a monk orders of Heironeous, the most famous of which - the Order of the Glory Everlasting - was founded by one Luther of 1E Rogues Gallery fame (updated to LG hu male Mon17).

In the Hextor entry there`s a small mention of Hextorian monks. The most famous monastic order is the Brotherhod of the Gray Hand, dedicated to preservation of Oeridian tradition and culture and the destruction of the Heirionean Order of the Glory Everlasting.
#13

rumblebelly

Dec 06, 2004 19:25:55
Let's not forget that the Dwarves of Dumaden also practice a Tai Chi like style of martial arts and might very well have "monkish" orders of their own. I also think it likely that elven worshippers of the moon goddess (Crikey, her name slips my mind right now) would have some monk-like worshippers.
#14

thanael

Dec 07, 2004 18:04:07
That would be Sehanine Moonbow.
Portfoliowise a few monks could well be among her worshippers..

I never heard of that Dumadan Taichi stuff though. What are your sources on that?
#15

gadodel

Dec 07, 2004 20:27:56
In my old campaign, most Monastic Orders had their roots in secret society started by Half-Elves. They mixed Elven and Human philosophies together. The Scarlet Brotherhood was an abomination that they did not forsee..
#16

rumblebelly

Dec 08, 2004 10:11:26
That would be Sehanine Moonbow.
Portfoliowise a few monks could well be among her worshippers..

I never heard of that Dumadan Taichi stuff though. What are your sources on that?

I just happen to have the source right in front of me--From the Ashes, Campaign Book, pg. 35. And I quote: "...and battle training that includes martial arts training in a form not unlike tai chi, involving slow, graceful, almost balletic movements and rythmic breathing exercises."

Who would be the patron of such a style, though? Clangeddin?
#17

zombiegleemax

Dec 08, 2004 19:41:10
Dumadan's dwur worship Moradin distinctively with what might be described as a mystical philosophy and poetry. (It reminds me of Sufism in a vague yet evocative way.) Dumadan's culture was contrasted with that of Karakast, where the culture is markedly martial (and the elite worship Clangeddin Silverbeard). Dumadan was also different from the dour dwur of Greysmere.

IMCs, Dumadan's dwur worship the majority of dwarven deities. Their mystical philosophy and poetic tradition is particularly influenced by priests of Vergadain.
#18

rumblebelly

Dec 09, 2004 0:22:56
How would you imagine a monastery dedicated to Vergadin would be set up?
#19

zombiegleemax

Dec 10, 2004 19:40:48
Hi Rumblebelly. I imagine that any monastery within Dumadan would be dedicated to the dwur pantheon overall. From FtA, we learned that Dumadan has a Bardic College. IMC, I didn't actually have monks from Dumadan. Instead I DMed a PC cleric who took a proficiency (2e) in martial arts (can't recall the exact name of the proficiency).

However, if I did it again I'd probably use combinations of bard-cleric-expert-monk character classes to represent many dwur of Dumadan. (There'd be fighters, paladins and rangers too but very few rogues.)

I'm fairly ignorant of dojos and whathaveyou: while I've practiced a few martial arts, it was only for short periods of time. I think Dumadan's practitioners would practice outside of the hold, when weather was clement -- perhaps at a monastery-shrine higher up the mountain. There would also be practice areas within the depths of Dumadan. I'd follow the description of Greysmere's halls in the CoG booklet -- though to be honest, even when I map them, I lack a clear vision of the insides of a dwur hold...
#20

rumblebelly

Dec 11, 2004 0:10:29
I am very interested in the subject of dwarven martial arts because I teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai for a living, and as such wrote an article for Pyramid Magazine laying out Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for the GURPS 3rd edition system.

After that I started working on an article outlining a dwarven martial art based on the so-called Mixed Martial Arts that have become increasingly popular since the UFC introduced the sport to the rest of the world in 1993, so I've thought a lot about how dwarves would practice an un-armed combat style. I stopped working on the article for a while when GURPS announced they were putting out a 4th edition, because I wanted the article to use up-to-date rules. Now, that the 4e is out I want to get back to work on it.

Basically, the system I designed has three empahses: the prize fighter, the temple-guard (for those temples where weapons are not allowed), and the warrior who finds himself disarmed. All three of these types learn the same basics, but their emphases shift according to what their later station in life will be. In my article, and IMC, every single dwarf is taught the basic system of self-defense. If a dwarf chooses to pursue a career in the martial arts, he apprentices to the appropriate master; i.e., the ring trainer, the church, or battle-field master of (Un)arms.

I was thinking that the Temple-guardian warrior in particular might be the type of dwarven martial artist that got the most representation in Dumaden. I like the idea of their being no weapons allowed in the Temple of Beorner (sp?) Truesilver, the goddess of healing. Yet, this temple would have a need to defend itself against invaders. I imagine these would be the most likely to practice in a dwarven monastery of some sort.

Any ideas on what these monasteries would be like are most welcome. But I don't want to hijack this thread. Should I make a separate thread?
#21

zombiegleemax

Dec 13, 2004 14:25:43
This thread seems a fine place to discuss an order of dwur monks' martial arts.

IMC, prize fighters aren't common in dwur societies, if they exist at all. While fighting is highly respected, dwur life is valuable, and dwur fighting one another is tragic.

So I'll focus my response on the temple-guard, which 2e named the hearthguard (as a kit in The Complete Book of Dwarves). I'll note that the sohei from Oriental Adventures might be appropriate for such characters, especially for those devoted to Clangeddin Silverbear, who seemed the sponsor of 2e's battleragers. However, I like the image of unarmed temple-guards of Berronar Truesilver...

Shifting to the martial art itself, given that dwarves in D&D have the racial trait of Stability, I think that this martial art would feature Trips, and the Improved Trip feat makes this maneuver very good. Leaving game rules, I imagine a dwur martial art involving wrestling -- maybe like judo although this practice probably wouldn't be described as tai-chi-like. Maybe aikido?