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Divine Right

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
OleOneEye
Oct 23, 2004 8:47:41 I have seen no mention of rule by divine right in the Flanneass. It seems with all those pesky and meddlesome gods, this concept would hold great credence throughout the lands. Certainly the theocracies would.

Pale's ruler must be chosen by Pholtus. Medegia seems too cut-throat for the ruler to actually be chosen by Hextor, but the ruler would certainly have been devoted to the six-armed god. Iuz, of course, is a divine ruler. Veluna seems to be overseen by a consortium of gods whom have probably agreed upon Canon Hazen. Almor likewise seemed to be overseen by a consortium of gods. The Spindrift Isles would likely have an elvin ruler determined by the elvin pantheon, perhaps Corellian or the elvin moongoddess (cannot recall her name). I like Ekbir to be devoted to Al'Akbar, though Istus would also be likely.

Other likely candidates for rule by divine right include: Furyondy (perhaps the ruler is chosen by Hieroneous - explaining how a paladin would maintain control over the nation), Celene (chosen by the elvin pantheon), Nyrond (though the wars would have weakened many folks belief in divine right).
#2
Mortepierre
Oct 23, 2004 12:20:24
I have seen no mention of rule by divine right in the Flanneass. It seems with all those pesky and meddlesome gods, this concept would hold great credence throughout the lands. Certainly the theocracies would.

Pale's ruler must be chosen by Pholtus. Medegia seems too cut-throat for the ruler to actually be chosen by Hextor, but the ruler would certainly have been devoted to the six-armed god. Iuz, of course, is a divine ruler. Veluna seems to be overseen by a consortium of gods whom have probably agreed upon Canon Hazen. Almor likewise seemed to be overseen by a consortium of gods. The Spindrift Isles would likely have an elvin ruler determined by the elvin pantheon, perhaps Corellian or the elvin moongoddess (cannot recall her name). I like Ekbir to be devoted to Al'Akbar, though Istus would also be likely.

Other likely candidates for rule by divine right include: Furyondy (perhaps the ruler is chosen by Hieroneous - explaining how a paladin would maintain control over the nation), Celene (chosen by the elvin pantheon), Nyrond (though the wars would have weakened many folks belief in divine right).

First of all, I don't think the WoG deities are as "meddlesome" as you seem to think they are. If they were, I doubt the last war would have gone the way it did with legions of demons/devils invading but no angels showing up in return.

If the WoG gods still depended on the number of worshippers to "exist", this might be the case but the most recent & canon info about WoG states they are not.

Second, the concept of rulers backed up by divine might goes back to our Middle-Age but, even then, I don't remember God showing up, pointing at a prospective ruler and saying "THIS IS THE ONE!". It was more about bragging rights and cowing ignorant commoners into obeying you. When a king says that he rules because almighty God is on his side, there is less chance of Joe-the-Commoner starting a rebellion because his family is famished all year round or because royal taxes take away 95% of what he owns.

Of course, in worlds such as WoG where gods actually grant divine spells, that's another problem. Certainly, if a ruler wished to "appear" to enjoy the divine protection of a deity (or a whole pantheon), he would have to make sure the local priesthood was on his side. That would be, however, a dangerous situation because the high priest(s) would then be in an ideal position to oppose him if he/they felt he/they weren't getting enough out of that "deal".

Ivid V (and his predecessors) are the best example of this. The relationship between the Overking and the priesthood of Hextor was one of love & hate. In the old days, when Heironeous & Pholtus's clergy still had something to say, the Overking could "juggle" between all three by granting favors to one and denying them to the other two but with Hextor as the only strong divine presence left, it became increasingly harder.

Canon Hazen was devoted to Rao but I doubt the latter actually singled him out to rule Veluna.

Same thing with the Theocrat. He is elected by members of the Circle of 9.

Both the king of Furyondy and the king of Nyrond may enjoy the official support of Heironeous' church but beyond the presence of the priesthood during the crowning ceremony, there doesn't seem to be much more to it.

The king of Furyondy is an interesting man. As a paladin, his primary devotion should be to his god (and the priesthood of his god), while as a king, his primary duty should be to his kingdom. This could lead to cases in which the local high priest of Heironeous could conceivably "order" him to act in certain ways. Yes, I know, Heironeous's clergy is LG (lawful good, not living greyhawk ;) ) but that doesn't mean the clerics can't feel it important to "manipulate" events in certain cases.

In conclusion, apart from Iuz, I don't see any obvious examples of rulers holding their position only thanks to divine backing. Lots of them doubtlessly say they do but that's just propaganda.
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 24, 2004 11:07:14 Divine Right makes more sense in a monotheistic environment than it does in a pantheistic one.

For example, although Hextor was the main god of the more militant members of the Great Kingdom, Hextor's favor was less of mark of authority in the eyes of the Zilchus worshipping nobles of House Darmen. They were more concerned with the Overking's worldly power than whether or not Hextor endorsed him. It also didn't endear the Overkings to those that later chose to seceded, such as the Heironeans of Ferrond and Nyrond, or the Pholtans of the Pale.

This is not to say that Divine Right isn't claimed. Overking Grenell of the Great Kingdom of Northern Aerdy almost certainly makes this claim as both ruler and patriarch of Hextor. Since he enforces the Hextoran faith as a state religion this claim carries somewhat more weight.

Obviously, the Prelate of the Pale also claims Divine Right. But unlike traditional feudal monarchs the post is not hereditary. His claim is really closer to that of the Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church than to a traditional "king".

King Belvor's status as a paladin of Heironeous reinforces his virtue in the eyes of his people, but does not form the basis of his right to rule. For what it's worth, I do not think he has a conflict with his church. They seem to defer to him as their lawful ruler, at least within Furyondy. He is high-level enough that he is at least a peer of most clergy in terms of religious hierarchy.

In Keoland, religious devotion is somewhat variable, and divided amongst numerous ethnic pantheons. So claiming any god's favor would have limited effect in such a nation.

Overall, Divine Right doesn't play much a role in many nations, although there are exceptions.
#4
lincoln_hills
Oct 29, 2004 13:31:49 Although - if you're into the whole 'divine right' concept - TSR produced the setting you want. It just doesn't happen to be Greyhawk. Check out info on the Birthright setting - long since out of print and with few, if any, indicators of being revivified by WotC. Not that I blame them: it simply didn't have the fan-base of Dark Sun or Ravenloft... But it's actually quite a "back to the basics classic fantasy" setting - an appealing feature it has in common with Greyhawk. Now if only they hadn't made the tactical error of incorporating Welsh/Celtic naming schemes. (Any setting which requires a pronunciation guide has, in my opinion, made a tactical error. Homebrew-setting DMs take heed!)
#5
cwslyclgh
Oct 29, 2004 13:40:46 I would say that Iuz rules his land by "Divine Right" ;)
#6
romulus_lonewolf
Oct 29, 2004 18:25:34
Divine Right makes more sense in a monotheistic environment than it does in a pantheistic one.

Not necessarily. Ancient Egypt was a pantheistic culture, but it's ruler, the Pharaoh, was held to be the living incarnation of the Sun God Ra, and ruled in the name of the Gods. The Ancient Chinese Emperors, also a pantheistic culture, relied on "The Mandate of Heaven" to justify their rulership.
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2004 23:09:48 But there are some key differences there.

Firstly, ancient Egyptian religion was hierarchical, which Oerth religions in general tend not to be. Ra, Amon, Amon-Ra, Aten, etc...all occupied a clear a position of celestial authority over the pantheon in the various theologies of the various dynasties. The Chinese likewise had a structured pantheon, complete with a "Celestial Emperor" to whom all the gods (along with the mortal emperor) reported.

Such pantheons were in fact about as "monotheistic" as Medieval Catholicism can be said to have been, with God, Christ, Mary and inumerable saints all as objects of veneration. In both cases a "supreme" god held a clear role of authority above all other gods and from them flowed the divine right of monarchs.

In contrast, only the Baklunish, Touv and Suel pantheons on the known parts of Oerth have clear pantheon heads. In the case of the Suel, Lendor is far to remote and disinterested of a deity to be the core of a centralized faith such as Ra.

This leaves the Touv as having what is perhaps the only religion with a deity (Uvot) clearly positioned to offer such a mandate recognized by a majority of the people.

The Oeridian pantheon has no clear leader, and depending on who you ask you would be told that Heironeous, Hextor, Zilchus or one of the others is the highest of all gods. Add to this the fact that many people in Oeridian controlled lands (which represent most of the Flanaess) worship non-Oeridian deities, such as Pelor, and divine right weakens further. In order to work as a justification to a majority of the people in most places you ultimately need the mandate of multiple gods, which is a tough balancing act as many of their churches, even the Good ones, aren't massively ecumenical even on the best of days.

The Flan pantheon also lacks a clear leadership, just as the Flan themselves are a generally fragmented people.

I suppose your closest bet would be the Bakluni. Al'Akbar seems to have been brought forward in 3E as a ripoff of Mohammed in what appears to be a pseudo-Islamic religion. But at least nowadays his faith appears to form the backbone of the rulership of many of the Drawmij states.
#8
OleOneEye
Oct 31, 2004 8:30:32 The Greyhawk gods appear quite meddlesome. Fharlanghn, Iuz, and Wastri actually live on Oerth. They would have to interact with mortals. Cuthbert comes to Oerth enough to be able to gate to the prime at will, and has at least two known appearances on Oerth since 576. Vecna came to Oerth to try to conquer the world. Ehlonna often travels among her folk. Erythnul is said to stalk all battlefields striking fear and rout. Heironeous often leaves the Seven Heavens to move around the Prime, aiding heroic causes and champion lawful good. Hextor treads the Prime in search of warfare, aiding lawful evil, opposing good. Incabulos roams the Prime during darkness. Istus makes appearances on the Prime. Nerull stalks the Prime, particularly at night, cutting down any living creature encountered. Olidammara wanders the Prime in many guises, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. The Prime is open to Pholtus, though he typically remains on Arcadia. Ralishaz appears on the Prime. Trithereon appears on the Prime. Ulaa frequently dwells on the Prime. Zagyg appears on the Prime.

All these gods live on or visit Oerth. They would have to interact with mortals. What is more, wouldn't they be concerned with who the most important mortals are? Or are they only interested in peasants? Isn't it likely that as a child Belvor had a playmate who was actually Heironeous in his guise as a young boy mentoring the future king? As a young man learning the martial arts, couldn't Belvor have been trained by a mercenary soldier - Heironeous in another guise? Now as king, would his court sometimes receive the wisdom of an old man - Hieroneous in his final guise?

One might surmise that the reason Boccob gained the moniker "The Uncaring" is that the other gods do care.
#9
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2004 9:09:08 Traditionally the Greyhawk deities are less directly involved in the world's political affairs than the gods of Toril or Krynn. Or when they do intervene it is usually in a behind-the-scenes fashion.

Part of this is probably driven by the fact that three of Oerth's mightiest deities are staunchly Neutral. Beory (the Oerth), Boccob (Magic) and Istus (Fate) are all sticklers for the Balance. So usually some sort of consensus has to be reached by the gods about what is an acceptable level of direct intervention in the world.

This is not to say that Belvor might not receive anonomyous guidance from an "old weaponsmaster" who just happens to really be Heironeous. But that is not the same thing as "Divine Right", which is a deity directly annointing a person as a ruler.

Because there are so many gods with different interests Divine Right would hold less sway except in nations that skew towards monotheism or centralized pantheons. The Overking of Aerdy might be endorsed by Hextor (although historically that was more token than direct), yet that endorsement carried little weight in the eyes of followers of Heironeous, Pholtus or Zilchus for example.

It might translate into some extra help, as when Hextor provided special magic to aid the creation of animuses for Ivid. But usually some sort of exchange or task is required in return. Rao didn't summarily banish the fiends from the Flanaess, Canon Hazen had to acquire the Crook of Rao, gather a circle of priests and at least one Archmage (Bigby) and cast the spell.

Likewise, even the Pale, which is a Theocracy, is still seeing politicking for the next successor to Theocrat Tillit, which implies that Pholtus does not directly appoint the Theocrat even though this person rules in his name.

So pound, for pound, most deities don't openly intervene much in day-to-day life in the Flanaess. It is true that the native demigods, such as Iuz, Wastri and the Earth Dragon do take a more active role than the planar powers, but that's because they live in the Flanaess in clearly identifiable locations. Most appearances of the lesser, intermediate and greater gods are more mythical, always related by people who can offer no proof that the encounters really happened (and thus opening the way for skeptics to dismiss their claims). Believers in those gods may believe the tales, while non-believers will scorn them.

Notice that they managed to get through the entire Greyhawk Wars without so much as one deity or avatar putting in an open public appearance other than Iuz?
#10
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2004 9:42:02
I would say that Iuz rules his land by "Divine Right" ;)

I think that's 'Divine Might'!
#11
OleOneEye
Oct 31, 2004 9:59:51 I can't help but see a consensus among foolks here that the dieties do not intervene in mortal affairs that much. While I see Incabulos consciously seeking to spread plague and famine, it seems most others are content to have him on a far away plane acting only through surrogates. So, if we have these dieties that don't directly act in the affairs of mortals, and don't choose to elevate powerful mortals to lead the people of Oerth, what exactly are the gods doing? I think we would all agree that Incabulos has been around for centuries, perhaps millenia, as a greater god. My question is, if he doesn't interfere that much with mortal ways, what exactly has he been doing? If he doesn't act to spread plagues, why is he the god of plague? Why have spheres of influence for the gods?
#12
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2004 10:35:22 Because Incabulos does spread diseases, cause famines and trigger disasters. It's just that he typically does so from behind-the-scenes. People do not (usually) see Incabulos standing on a hill cackling like a super-villain waving his hands and making things happen.

Indeed, part of the appeal of Iuz to Evil people, despite the fact that he is only a demigod, is that he is a dark master that they can see and hear, rather than a distant force of nature beyond mortal sight.

There's a practical consideration here. It has been acknowledged in the past that the gods are powerful. If they all started taking a direct hand in Oerthly affairs then the planet probably wouldn't long survive the experience. Also, what would mortals do except be perpetual victims of divine assault.

Pelor has the Mass Life and Death salient divine ability for example. If he wanted to put a stop to evil armies levelling Almor for example he could simply use that power and wipe them out. He could have slain Ivid right on his throne. But what would the ramifications of that action be? Or of raising all the slain of Chathold from the dead?

The gods are capable of completely up-ending the whole world. So generally speaking they agree to act through mortals rather than directly. Or when they act directly they do so in a subtle fashion. For example, I rationalized the fact that Ivid's wasting disease could not be stopped, even when he became undead, because Pelor (as the god of healing) wouldn't allow it. That was how he punished Ivid for his crimes against his worshippers. Likewise, I positioned the gradual flooding of Rauxes as punishment from the Oeridian agricultural deities for much the same reason.

This made more balanced sense than trying to explain why the gods didn't simply smite Ivid and the other leaders of the Great Kingdom. It likewise explains why similar actions aren't taken against the followers of Good gods.
#13
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2004 23:37:18 One way I "resolve" the different descriptions of gods' Oerthwalking is to hold that in past centuries the gods visited Oerth more frequently than in the past two or three centuries.

It seems reasonable that some gods shied from Oerth after the Twin Cataclysms and then began to visit again until some other event suggested less frequent Oerthwalks -- perhaps like the Turmoil Between Crowns?
#14
OleOneEye
Nov 05, 2004 22:48:16 Of curiosity, when a person is infected by a disease, do you envision them to have a bacterial or viral infection, or do you see them literally infested with the spirit of Incabulos? I prefer the latter.
#15
zombiegleemax
Nov 06, 2004 11:05:03 Both. For example, IMC if one comes upon the corpses of a rider and mount, steaming under the sun, and one messes with the corpses, if I as DM have disease in mind, then I might roll a Fort. save for your character. If you fail, then I'll likely not only inform you that your character has lost a point or three of an attribute, but I'll probably also describe the nightmares your character experienced as you tried to sleep, and the magic of cure disease will abjure away the baleful influence of the Dark Rider.

Note, however, that Oerth has an inadequately detailed "spirit world." In effect, there is no such thing. Instead the Ethereal Plane (and certain Fading Lands) provide something similar but not quite on point. To me this is somewhat frustrating: I've not been able to imagine how to "graft" a spirit world onto parts of the Flanaess (and beyond) without "disturbing" the present design of the Flanaess. For example, I'm unsatisfied with my attempts to "reconcile" fey, druids of the Old Faith, and my ideas about the "savage" magicks of the Olman, Amedi Suel, and Touv. Also, the Earth Dragon doesn't quite work out with notions about other gods...

Ah mystery!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OleOneEye Oct 23, 2004 8:47:41	I have seen no mention of rule by divine right in the Flanneass. It seems with all those pesky and meddlesome gods, this concept would hold great credence throughout the lands. Certainly the theocracies would. Pale's ruler must be chosen by Pholtus. Medegia seems too cut-throat for the ruler to actually be chosen by Hextor, but the ruler would certainly have been devoted to the six-armed god. Iuz, of course, is a divine ruler. Veluna seems to be overseen by a consortium of gods whom have probably agreed upon Canon Hazen. Almor likewise seemed to be overseen by a consortium of gods. The Spindrift Isles would likely have an elvin ruler determined by the elvin pantheon, perhaps Corellian or the elvin moongoddess (cannot recall her name). I like Ekbir to be devoted to Al'Akbar, though Istus would also be likely. Other likely candidates for rule by divine right include: Furyondy (perhaps the ruler is chosen by Hieroneous - explaining how a paladin would maintain control over the nation), Celene (chosen by the elvin pantheon), Nyrond (though the wars would have weakened many folks belief in divine right).
#2 Mortepierre Oct 23, 2004 12:20:24	I have seen no mention of rule by divine right in the Flanneass. It seems with all those pesky and meddlesome gods, this concept would hold great credence throughout the lands. Certainly the theocracies would. Pale's ruler must be chosen by Pholtus. Medegia seems too cut-throat for the ruler to actually be chosen by Hextor, but the ruler would certainly have been devoted to the six-armed god. Iuz, of course, is a divine ruler. Veluna seems to be overseen by a consortium of gods whom have probably agreed upon Canon Hazen. Almor likewise seemed to be overseen by a consortium of gods. The Spindrift Isles would likely have an elvin ruler determined by the elvin pantheon, perhaps Corellian or the elvin moongoddess (cannot recall her name). I like Ekbir to be devoted to Al'Akbar, though Istus would also be likely. Other likely candidates for rule by divine right include: Furyondy (perhaps the ruler is chosen by Hieroneous - explaining how a paladin would maintain control over the nation), Celene (chosen by the elvin pantheon), Nyrond (though the wars would have weakened many folks belief in divine right). First of all, I don't think the WoG deities are as "meddlesome" as you seem to think they are. If they were, I doubt the last war would have gone the way it did with legions of demons/devils invading but no angels showing up in return. If the WoG gods still depended on the number of worshippers to "exist", this might be the case but the most recent & canon info about WoG states they are not. Second, the concept of rulers backed up by divine might goes back to our Middle-Age but, even then, I don't remember God showing up, pointing at a prospective ruler and saying "THIS IS THE ONE!". It was more about bragging rights and cowing ignorant commoners into obeying you. When a king says that he rules because almighty God is on his side, there is less chance of Joe-the-Commoner starting a rebellion because his family is famished all year round or because royal taxes take away 95% of what he owns. Of course, in worlds such as WoG where gods actually grant divine spells, that's another problem. Certainly, if a ruler wished to "appear" to enjoy the divine protection of a deity (or a whole pantheon), he would have to make sure the local priesthood was on his side. That would be, however, a dangerous situation because the high priest(s) would then be in an ideal position to oppose him if he/they felt he/they weren't getting enough out of that "deal". Ivid V (and his predecessors) are the best example of this. The relationship between the Overking and the priesthood of Hextor was one of love & hate. In the old days, when Heironeous & Pholtus's clergy still had something to say, the Overking could "juggle" between all three by granting favors to one and denying them to the other two but with Hextor as the only strong divine presence left, it became increasingly harder. Canon Hazen was devoted to Rao but I doubt the latter actually singled him out to rule Veluna. Same thing with the Theocrat. He is elected by members of the Circle of 9. Both the king of Furyondy and the king of Nyrond may enjoy the official support of Heironeous' church but beyond the presence of the priesthood during the crowning ceremony, there doesn't seem to be much more to it. The king of Furyondy is an interesting man. As a paladin, his primary devotion should be to his god (and the priesthood of his god), while as a king, his primary duty should be to his kingdom. This could lead to cases in which the local high priest of Heironeous could conceivably "order" him to act in certain ways. Yes, I know, Heironeous's clergy is LG (lawful good, not living greyhawk ;) ) but that doesn't mean the clerics can't feel it important to "manipulate" events in certain cases. In conclusion, apart from Iuz, I don't see any obvious examples of rulers holding their position only thanks to divine backing. Lots of them doubtlessly say they do but that's just propaganda.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 24, 2004 11:07:14	Divine Right makes more sense in a monotheistic environment than it does in a pantheistic one. For example, although Hextor was the main god of the more militant members of the Great Kingdom, Hextor's favor was less of mark of authority in the eyes of the Zilchus worshipping nobles of House Darmen. They were more concerned with the Overking's worldly power than whether or not Hextor endorsed him. It also didn't endear the Overkings to those that later chose to seceded, such as the Heironeans of Ferrond and Nyrond, or the Pholtans of the Pale. This is not to say that Divine Right isn't claimed. Overking Grenell of the Great Kingdom of Northern Aerdy almost certainly makes this claim as both ruler and patriarch of Hextor. Since he enforces the Hextoran faith as a state religion this claim carries somewhat more weight. Obviously, the Prelate of the Pale also claims Divine Right. But unlike traditional feudal monarchs the post is not hereditary. His claim is really closer to that of the Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church than to a traditional "king". King Belvor's status as a paladin of Heironeous reinforces his virtue in the eyes of his people, but does not form the basis of his right to rule. For what it's worth, I do not think he has a conflict with his church. They seem to defer to him as their lawful ruler, at least within Furyondy. He is high-level enough that he is at least a peer of most clergy in terms of religious hierarchy. In Keoland, religious devotion is somewhat variable, and divided amongst numerous ethnic pantheons. So claiming any god's favor would have limited effect in such a nation. Overall, Divine Right doesn't play much a role in many nations, although there are exceptions.
#4 lincoln_hills Oct 29, 2004 13:31:49	Although - if you're into the whole 'divine right' concept - TSR produced the setting you want. It just doesn't happen to be Greyhawk. Check out info on the Birthright setting - long since out of print and with few, if any, indicators of being revivified by WotC. Not that I blame them: it simply didn't have the fan-base of Dark Sun or Ravenloft... But it's actually quite a "back to the basics classic fantasy" setting - an appealing feature it has in common with Greyhawk. Now if only they hadn't made the tactical error of incorporating Welsh/Celtic naming schemes. (Any setting which requires a pronunciation guide has, in my opinion, made a tactical error. Homebrew-setting DMs take heed!)
#5 cwslyclgh Oct 29, 2004 13:40:46	I would say that Iuz rules his land by "Divine Right" ;)
#6 romulus_lonewolf Oct 29, 2004 18:25:34	Divine Right makes more sense in a monotheistic environment than it does in a pantheistic one. Not necessarily. Ancient Egypt was a pantheistic culture, but it's ruler, the Pharaoh, was held to be the living incarnation of the Sun God Ra, and ruled in the name of the Gods. The Ancient Chinese Emperors, also a pantheistic culture, relied on "The Mandate of Heaven" to justify their rulership.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2004 23:09:48	But there are some key differences there. Firstly, ancient Egyptian religion was hierarchical, which Oerth religions in general tend not to be. Ra, Amon, Amon-Ra, Aten, etc...all occupied a clear a position of celestial authority over the pantheon in the various theologies of the various dynasties. The Chinese likewise had a structured pantheon, complete with a "Celestial Emperor" to whom all the gods (along with the mortal emperor) reported. Such pantheons were in fact about as "monotheistic" as Medieval Catholicism can be said to have been, with God, Christ, Mary and inumerable saints all as objects of veneration. In both cases a "supreme" god held a clear role of authority above all other gods and from them flowed the divine right of monarchs. In contrast, only the Baklunish, Touv and Suel pantheons on the known parts of Oerth have clear pantheon heads. In the case of the Suel, Lendor is far to remote and disinterested of a deity to be the core of a centralized faith such as Ra. This leaves the Touv as having what is perhaps the only religion with a deity (Uvot) clearly positioned to offer such a mandate recognized by a majority of the people. The Oeridian pantheon has no clear leader, and depending on who you ask you would be told that Heironeous, Hextor, Zilchus or one of the others is the highest of all gods. Add to this the fact that many people in Oeridian controlled lands (which represent most of the Flanaess) worship non-Oeridian deities, such as Pelor, and divine right weakens further. In order to work as a justification to a majority of the people in most places you ultimately need the mandate of multiple gods, which is a tough balancing act as many of their churches, even the Good ones, aren't massively ecumenical even on the best of days. The Flan pantheon also lacks a clear leadership, just as the Flan themselves are a generally fragmented people. I suppose your closest bet would be the Bakluni. Al'Akbar seems to have been brought forward in 3E as a ripoff of Mohammed in what appears to be a pseudo-Islamic religion. But at least nowadays his faith appears to form the backbone of the rulership of many of the Drawmij states.
#8 OleOneEye Oct 31, 2004 8:30:32	The Greyhawk gods appear quite meddlesome. Fharlanghn, Iuz, and Wastri actually live on Oerth. They would have to interact with mortals. Cuthbert comes to Oerth enough to be able to gate to the prime at will, and has at least two known appearances on Oerth since 576. Vecna came to Oerth to try to conquer the world. Ehlonna often travels among her folk. Erythnul is said to stalk all battlefields striking fear and rout. Heironeous often leaves the Seven Heavens to move around the Prime, aiding heroic causes and champion lawful good. Hextor treads the Prime in search of warfare, aiding lawful evil, opposing good. Incabulos roams the Prime during darkness. Istus makes appearances on the Prime. Nerull stalks the Prime, particularly at night, cutting down any living creature encountered. Olidammara wanders the Prime in many guises, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. The Prime is open to Pholtus, though he typically remains on Arcadia. Ralishaz appears on the Prime. Trithereon appears on the Prime. Ulaa frequently dwells on the Prime. Zagyg appears on the Prime. All these gods live on or visit Oerth. They would have to interact with mortals. What is more, wouldn't they be concerned with who the most important mortals are? Or are they only interested in peasants? Isn't it likely that as a child Belvor had a playmate who was actually Heironeous in his guise as a young boy mentoring the future king? As a young man learning the martial arts, couldn't Belvor have been trained by a mercenary soldier - Heironeous in another guise? Now as king, would his court sometimes receive the wisdom of an old man - Hieroneous in his final guise? One might surmise that the reason Boccob gained the moniker "The Uncaring" is that the other gods do care.
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2004 9:09:08	Traditionally the Greyhawk deities are less directly involved in the world's political affairs than the gods of Toril or Krynn. Or when they do intervene it is usually in a behind-the-scenes fashion. Part of this is probably driven by the fact that three of Oerth's mightiest deities are staunchly Neutral. Beory (the Oerth), Boccob (Magic) and Istus (Fate) are all sticklers for the Balance. So usually some sort of consensus has to be reached by the gods about what is an acceptable level of direct intervention in the world. This is not to say that Belvor might not receive anonomyous guidance from an "old weaponsmaster" who just happens to really be Heironeous. But that is not the same thing as "Divine Right", which is a deity directly annointing a person as a ruler. Because there are so many gods with different interests Divine Right would hold less sway except in nations that skew towards monotheism or centralized pantheons. The Overking of Aerdy might be endorsed by Hextor (although historically that was more token than direct), yet that endorsement carried little weight in the eyes of followers of Heironeous, Pholtus or Zilchus for example. It might translate into some extra help, as when Hextor provided special magic to aid the creation of animuses for Ivid. But usually some sort of exchange or task is required in return. Rao didn't summarily banish the fiends from the Flanaess, Canon Hazen had to acquire the Crook of Rao, gather a circle of priests and at least one Archmage (Bigby) and cast the spell. Likewise, even the Pale, which is a Theocracy, is still seeing politicking for the next successor to Theocrat Tillit, which implies that Pholtus does not directly appoint the Theocrat even though this person rules in his name. So pound, for pound, most deities don't openly intervene much in day-to-day life in the Flanaess. It is true that the native demigods, such as Iuz, Wastri and the Earth Dragon do take a more active role than the planar powers, but that's because they live in the Flanaess in clearly identifiable locations. Most appearances of the lesser, intermediate and greater gods are more mythical, always related by people who can offer no proof that the encounters really happened (and thus opening the way for skeptics to dismiss their claims). Believers in those gods may believe the tales, while non-believers will scorn them. Notice that they managed to get through the entire Greyhawk Wars without so much as one deity or avatar putting in an open public appearance other than Iuz?
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2004 9:42:02	I would say that Iuz rules his land by "Divine Right" ;) I think that's 'Divine Might'!
#11 OleOneEye Oct 31, 2004 9:59:51	I can't help but see a consensus among foolks here that the dieties do not intervene in mortal affairs that much. While I see Incabulos consciously seeking to spread plague and famine, it seems most others are content to have him on a far away plane acting only through surrogates. So, if we have these dieties that don't directly act in the affairs of mortals, and don't choose to elevate powerful mortals to lead the people of Oerth, what exactly are the gods doing? I think we would all agree that Incabulos has been around for centuries, perhaps millenia, as a greater god. My question is, if he doesn't interfere that much with mortal ways, what exactly has he been doing? If he doesn't act to spread plagues, why is he the god of plague? Why have spheres of influence for the gods?
#12 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2004 10:35:22	Because Incabulos does spread diseases, cause famines and trigger disasters. It's just that he typically does so from behind-the-scenes. People do not (usually) see Incabulos standing on a hill cackling like a super-villain waving his hands and making things happen. Indeed, part of the appeal of Iuz to Evil people, despite the fact that he is only a demigod, is that he is a dark master that they can see and hear, rather than a distant force of nature beyond mortal sight. There's a practical consideration here. It has been acknowledged in the past that the gods are powerful. If they all started taking a direct hand in Oerthly affairs then the planet probably wouldn't long survive the experience. Also, what would mortals do except be perpetual victims of divine assault. Pelor has the Mass Life and Death salient divine ability for example. If he wanted to put a stop to evil armies levelling Almor for example he could simply use that power and wipe them out. He could have slain Ivid right on his throne. But what would the ramifications of that action be? Or of raising all the slain of Chathold from the dead? The gods are capable of completely up-ending the whole world. So generally speaking they agree to act through mortals rather than directly. Or when they act directly they do so in a subtle fashion. For example, I rationalized the fact that Ivid's wasting disease could not be stopped, even when he became undead, because Pelor (as the god of healing) wouldn't allow it. That was how he punished Ivid for his crimes against his worshippers. Likewise, I positioned the gradual flooding of Rauxes as punishment from the Oeridian agricultural deities for much the same reason. This made more balanced sense than trying to explain why the gods didn't simply smite Ivid and the other leaders of the Great Kingdom. It likewise explains why similar actions aren't taken against the followers of Good gods.
#13 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2004 23:37:18	One way I "resolve" the different descriptions of gods' Oerthwalking is to hold that in past centuries the gods visited Oerth more frequently than in the past two or three centuries. It seems reasonable that some gods shied from Oerth after the Twin Cataclysms and then began to visit again until some other event suggested less frequent Oerthwalks -- perhaps like the Turmoil Between Crowns?
#14 OleOneEye Nov 05, 2004 22:48:16	Of curiosity, when a person is infected by a disease, do you envision them to have a bacterial or viral infection, or do you see them literally infested with the spirit of Incabulos? I prefer the latter.
#15 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2004 11:05:03	Both. For example, IMC if one comes upon the corpses of a rider and mount, steaming under the sun, and one messes with the corpses, if I as DM have disease in mind, then I might roll a Fort. save for your character. If you fail, then I'll likely not only inform you that your character has lost a point or three of an attribute, but I'll probably also describe the nightmares your character experienced as you tried to sleep, and the magic of cure disease will abjure away the baleful influence of the Dark Rider. Note, however, that Oerth has an inadequately detailed "spirit world." In effect, there is no such thing. Instead the Ethereal Plane (and certain Fading Lands) provide something similar but not quite on point. To me this is somewhat frustrating: I've not been able to imagine how to "graft" a spirit world onto parts of the Flanaess (and beyond) without "disturbing" the present design of the Flanaess. For example, I'm unsatisfied with my attempts to "reconcile" fey, druids of the Old Faith, and my ideas about the "savage" magicks of the Olman, Amedi Suel, and Touv. Also, the Earth Dragon doesn't quite work out with notions about other gods... Ah mystery!