Revised books tick me off. (ie, 3.5 CRBs, Revised Star Wars book, etc.)
I think a short world update book would be much better.
Revised books tick me off. (ie, 3.5 CRBs, Revised Star Wars book, etc.)
I whole heartedly agree with this statement. Revised books are nothing but a $$$ making ploy in most cases.
I think a short world update book would be much better.
Revised books tick me off. (ie, 3.5 CRBs, Revised Star Wars book, etc.)
Agreed and agreed. I hate the idea of buying the same book twice. Revisions, tweaks, etc. are all nice, but it irks me to buy something again. Rules revisions (i.e. SW book, 3 CRBs) seem to be musts to buy at times, as all the new sourcebooks in the setting are based on them.
Expanded or compiled books are nice and what not, but again, you're spending the money more than once. Problem is, I'm a sucker for this sort of thing.
Back to DL...
I think a world update would be much, much better. For one, you don't make the fan base mad with a revision. More importantly, though, you would only be able to do some tweaks on rules, and add a few expansion with a revised book. If you had a new book, there's tons of new info you could put in there. You could have greater focus on geography, updates to the timeline and setting, new rules, etc.
I'd give it about 3-5 years, when the Rise of Solamnia/Empire trilogy is done, as well as Amber and Ashes and any other current series. Then you will have sufficient foundation to build a new sourcebook on.
1) WotC/Hasbro would want in, which makes things complicated in a hurry.
2) People generally don't like revised books.
3) Has the world settled down enough to write anything definitive, or do all the authors have an open season to establish their own empires? It has been pretty chaotic lately.
On the other hand, I could see a couple of pluses too:
1) It is the biggest book that gets sold, and I think the obvious flaws of the DLCS did not lure the old fans back, or make any new ones that didn't come by way of the novels.
2) You could put all of your errata in one place.
3) A lot of stuff is no longer relevant or acknowleged. For example the "Nomad" subrace isn't mention in WotL. The plains barbarians statted are just human. Good riddance I say.
However, I think the best option would be to release two books. I would be a "Player's Guide to Dragonlance". 25-50% fixed rules, collected feats, collected spells, collected domains, the core prestige classes etc. The rest being new stuff. Such as new domains, new spells, new feats, a rogue's gallery, organizations and armies, magic items and the rest.l
Then for the Geography section release the Atlas in 3-4 years after the authors are done reconstructing post-dragon purge.
IME, 3.5e was released too early, three years after the launch of 3.0e. It should have released 2005. It also didn't sit well with me when I have heard talks that before the ink was dry on the 3e PHB that they have already went into developing 3.5e. (BTW, I intend to buy 3.5e next year, but in the meantime, I make good use of the Revised SRD.)
OTOH, The Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook is warranted due to the many fan feedback regarding the Original Core Rulebook.
So, as you can see, it is a case-by-case basis.
Based on my brief erratic visits here, I don't see that much complaints nor abundant fan feedback regarding the 2003 campaign setting book. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh, a footnote. When WotC released Player's Guide to Faerun -- a 3.5e update for FRCS -- it wasn't well-received by some within the fanbase. (I accepted for what it is.) Either the content was not enough for them or the title of the product itself was inappropriate (a PG should have stuff for player's eyes only).
...uh er...sorry about that. In closing a "players guide to" or something of the sort would be much better than a revised DLCS.I don't find the DLCS to be a bad product; it's just not my cup of tea b/c I'm not interested in the post-WotL era. And remember, it was the first book out so we shouldn't expect it to be as polished as the recent releases.
Well, what I'm mostly worry about is all the rumor talk about 4th edition D&D. From some sources it's coming as early as a year or two. I don't know about that, though. If 4th Edition is around the corner though, that really sucks.
I agree with you. Somehow, the suits in WotC think it's best to follow the same business model for their TCG and -- I daresay, the videogame industry -- and try to update the rules as often as they can.
While you should take rumor with a grain a salt, I personally would not be surprised having seen 3.5e appeared on the shelf just last year.
What would SP do? Could they still publish DL book under 3.5?
Depends on the licensing agreement between them and WotC.
I heard the plan to take away the Open License with 4th Edition.
There is one problem: they can't. WotC can only choose NOT to add 4e material into their SRD.
The OGL is here to stay. How publishers use the current SRD plus the OGCs found in many third-party non-WotC products is up to them.
You guys are right, a world expansion book would be better, but I really just hate the formatting of the DL Campaign book, that's why I wouldn't mind a Revised edition.
It has to go beyond formatting to warrant a revision. So, you have to tell me, what is wrong with the DLCS, content-wise? And try to avoid underaged description like "sucks."
I just taught about this because I was reading up on Monte Cook’s Unearth Arcana revision. At least his amiable enough to let us know we don’t need the book if we have the original, but all the extra material added plus the very high quality artwork the book will have makes it a tempting buy. I think the Dragonlance Campaign book could use such a treatment.
But that's just me.
Miles.
I hate the current DLCS. I've been wanting a revised one the day after I got it.
New content that could be included:
- DL Racial Paragon levels
- an arms and equipment section
- new spells (just get "inspired" from FR spells...)
- Maybe a new prestige class or two
Just follow the kinds of changes that were made in the REvised Star Wars book and you'll have a wicked Revised DLCS.
I just bought this one (and WotL and Bestiary),
if they're gonna do something like that, do a web enhancement or a 96 back/$15 update book ... then I'll think about it.
New content that could be included:
- DL Racial Paragon levels
- an arms and equipment section
- new spells (just get "inspired" from FR spells...)
- Maybe a new prestige class or two
All of that, plus what I wrote above , and some or all of these below would be a definate plus as well;
-A compilation of all the feats from DL books, plus a few new ones
-A compliation of all the new domains for DL (from DLCS, AoM, HOotS if any)
-A short adventure for mid-level players
-A Glossary would be nice, that refers you to the other books as well
-A sorcerer variant that isn't a poor man's wizard
-More Elmore'esque artwork
However, as I have purchased every revised book for 3E already, to include the new complete series books (just reprinted Tome & Blood, Sword & Fist, etc... with some updates of course) as well as the revised Star wars.
I just gotta have the most current rules on hand.
True dat. True dat. I swore I was only going to get the updated 3.5 Core books, but next thing you know I've got both released Complete books (even though the Complete Divine is a complete waste, pun intended), and while I don't plan on getting the rest I most likely will. I have a severe circumstancial penatly, like a -10, when it comes to updated rules, new classes, PrC's, feats, etc.
For me it's like rolling an automatic fumble, natutral 1 and then tack on a -30 just to make sure.
Alright, Ranger, here I go :D . I find the formatting frustrating. I don’t like having to flip through pages looking for the picture of a Rose Knight slaying a black dragon to find the Dragonlance stats. I would have preferred magical items together in their own chapter.
Wait...so, you don't like the fact that all(or, almost all) of the magic items were put at the end of the Magic chapter?! Now, I'll admit, there are quite a few magic items in other places, but, they all make sense. The Ice Reaver is with the Nomads. The Staff and Dagger of Magius are in the Arcane Magic section(I think). Blue Crystal Staff is in the War of the Lance section(I think). I forget where Rabbitslayer is, but I think it may be in the Timeline, talking about the Chaos War.
Alright, Ranger, here I go :D . I find the formatting frustrating. I don’t like having to flip through pages looking for the picture of a Rose Knight slaying a black dragon to find the Dragonlance stats.
You have problem with the picture?
I would have preferred magical items together in their own chapter. Earlier description of the book before its release said that it would follow the same mold as the Forgotten Realms book. It doesn’t. I don’t like that you have to look at the Age of Mortals to find out that WoHS don’t have to be specialists. I found the Knights of the Sword terribly neglected; they are far more playable during the WoTL. And while I know it was Hasbro that was not keened with the idea, I think that an opportunity to present a new magic system for Wild Magic was wasted. Overall I found the book lacking and rushed.
And what is Sovereign Press's response to their game design (i.e., the folk who wrote the DLCS material)?
You have problem with the picture?
It's not the best looking picture. But I think you understand what I mean about flipping through pages to find the stats for a weapon because it's not in it's own section. If you don’t, I can't make it any clearer than that.
And what is Sovereign Press's response to their game design (i.e., the folk who wrote the DLCS material)?
Is this meant to be a rhetorical question?
Wait...so, you don't like the fact that all(or, almost all) of the magic items were put at the end of the Magic chapter?!
Obviously I don’t. I don’t think I was being that vague in my point. Since almost is not the same as all. And look at your Table of Contents again the magic items are pretty spread out through out the book.
It's not the best looking picture. But I think you understand what I mean about flipping through pages to find the stats for a weapon because it's not in it's own section. If you don’t, I can't make it any clearer than that.
But are they in the book? If the weapon stats are missing, then there should be an errata correction.
Is this meant to be a rhetorical question?
Seriously, no. After all, they're the ones that wrote the DLCS text. If they're not responsible, then we look toward WotC for editing and layout. Anyone who have known me long in this messageboard (not necessarily this forum) know that I still carry the gripe of WotC's editing performance.
But until there are major rules errata or a long list of rules errata, the grammar and formatting is not enough to warrant a revision.
This inclusion would assist those running the Age of Mortals campaign in integrating story elements from novels into our roleplaying adventures.
Don't even bother wasting my time, or money by giving me the same book(Which I already own.) twice. Bad idea, you cannot upgrade a book everytime something is written, or happens, in a novel(If that is the case we will have 3 or 4 new DLCS books within the next few years.).
The DragonLance Campaign Setting was just released in 2003, and now only a year later(2004) you are asking for yet another campaign setting book; you are worse than the handful of "4E/New Edition Addicts" on the Future Releases board.~~~
I think the dominate idea here is buying a "revised" DLCS is silly. What most of us have been discussing is what could be done to avoid that. Releasing a Player's Guide type book, a web update, or a subscription to a peridoical, etc. If they did foolishly put out a new DLCS, I would tell myself it's not worth it, but I'd probably end up buying it because I have no willpower when it comes to things like that. That's just myself though.
What should DragonLance be focused on right now ? Accessories. Forget all of this updating the world every couple of months. It is a waste of money, put out books on the cultures within Krynn(Races of Ansalon), the religions, the land(Gazettes). "Player's Guides" and "Revised books" is not what the world needs right now.
~~~
What should DragonLance be focused on right now ? Accessories. Forget all of this updating the world every couple of months. It is a waste of money, put out books on the cultures within Krynn(Races of Ansalon), the religions, the land(Gazettes). "Player's Guides" and "Revised books" is not what the world needs right now.
~~~
They should be focused on, IMO, Holy Order of the Stars, the Legends sourcebook, prior ages sourcebooks, sorcerer and mystic books, etc.. When all is said and done though, it would be nice to have one source for all the errata, updates, new item, and options. No ones saying they need to release it now. The question was, "If they were to release one, would you buy it?" Not, "Do you think one is needed and should it be released immediately, forgoing all other projects?"
They should be focused on, IMO, Holy Order of the Stars, the Legends sourcebook, prior ages sourcebooks, sorcerer and mystic books, etc.. When all is said and done though, it would be nice to have one source for all the errata, updates, new item, and options. No ones saying they need to release it now. The question was, "If they were to release one, would you buy it?" Not, "Do you think one is needed and should it be released immediately, forgoing all other projects?"
That question has been answered, as proven by your own words, observe: "I think the dominate idea here is buying a "revised" DLCS is silly." Let it go.
Also, that was not the question. The question was and I quote: "Would you buy a revised DL campaign book?" which was followed by this question " If Sovereign Press where to do a Revised Dragonlance Campaign book, how many of you would buy it?" My post is accurate, your post is not.
Now what is good for release now(Why talk about something(A revised DLCS) that is not even needed, or better yet wanted ?) would be the above items I have listed.
~~~
Is one needed at this point? No. Would it be nice to have an algamation of everything sometime in the future? Yes. That's all that is being asked and answered. We're not not saying that we need one now and it should be a revised DLCS. That was just one of the many questions and answers posted.
I think we're both trying to make the same point, so let's not split hairs about placing the emphasis on the correct sylable. (Rolling for Diplomacy check)
~~~
Operative word is IF. Therefore, my post is not inaccurate, just more specific.
Is one needed at this point? No. Would it be nice to have an algamation of everything sometime in the future? Yes. That's all that is being asked and answered. We're not not saying that we need one now and it should be a revised DLCS. That was just one of the many questions and answers posted.
I think we're both trying to make the same point, so let's not split hairs about placing the emphasis on the correct sylable. (Rolling for Diplomacy check)
Your post is not exactly the same as the post in question, therefore it is not accurate, whereas mine is. Also, you claim earlier that noone is saying they should release it now. This claim is irrelevant being that there is no way that said book could be released now( Koranith: "No ones saying they need to release it now."). It would have to be released sometime in the near future, which is what the original poster is pulling for, observe: "Definitely! By the end of Amber and Ashes the world of Ansalon as presented in the campaign setting is already out of date. "
Again, numerous campaign settings, or something a-alike to numerous campaign settings, is not needed. SP should focus on accessories to the game, getting products out on time, etc. Not revising the campaign setting every few months, or every other year, because one does not like flipping through the pages in the book(Which is what one must do anyway in order to read the book.). Following such ludicrous advice would only serve to put a stake in SP's pockets, as most gamers are not likely to re-purchase a campaign setting every other year.
~~~
Your post is not exactly the same as the post in question, therefore it is not accurate, whereas mine is. Also, you claim earlier that noone is saying they should release it now. This claim is irrelevant being that there is no way that said book could be released now( Koranith: "No ones saying they need to release it now."). It would have to be released sometime in the near future, which is what the original poster is pulling for, observe: "Definitely! By the end of Amber and Ashes the world of Ansalon as presented in the campaign setting is already out of date. "
~~~
You're implying that the only thing being posted here by myself and others is that we need a new revised DLCS. That is completely untrue. You are making gross leaps here to come to that conclusion. I, for one, do not support a new revised DLCS. Ranger Reg seems to be the only one in favor of a revised DLCS and even then with reservations. After the first few vague posts about needing some sort of anupdate, we moved away from topic and began talking about what we would like to see if SP does put out some sort of update. An update, such as a Player's Guide or gazette that you were so willing to buy earlier.
Give me the Races of Ansalon book, and a couple of gazettes, these I will buy to enhance my game.
Follow the thread man follow the thread. Don't get stuck on just a few posts. Therefore my post aboutis not inaccurate, just more specific on what was being talked about throughout the thread, not just in the first few postings.
I still want a Revised version! And an index!!
I still want a Revised version! And an index!!
And we want draconian miniatures with it too. And a Soth mini and a Mina mini (but not a mini Mina mini).
Throw in an order of fries, and an acre of land.
And cookies!
You're implying that the only thing being posted here by myself and others is that we need a new revised DLCS.
Actually this is what I said: "Your post is not exactly the same as the post in question, therefore it is not accurate, whereas mine is. Also, you claim earlier that noone is saying they should release it now. This claim is irrelevant being that there is no way that said book could be released now( Koranith: "No ones saying they need to release it now."). It would have to be released sometime in the near future, which is what the original poster is pulling for, observe: "Definitely! By the end of Amber and Ashes the world of Ansalon as presented in the campaign setting is already out of date. "
Know this, what you think I said and what I actually wrote are two different things as proven by the words in italics above.
Ranger Reg seems to be the only one in favor of a revised DLCS and even then with reservations.[/i]
You are incorrect, the initial poster supports such a product. The initial poster is not Ranger Reg, therefore he is not the only one(There are others, although few, as well.) that supports a revised DLCS.An update, such as a Player's Guide or gazette that you were so willing to buy earlier.
There is a lie present within this response, I never supported a Player's Guide, only a gazette.Follow the thread man follow the thread. Don't get stuck on just a few posts.
It appears that it is you that needs to pay attention, since your position has been debunked each and everytime.
~~~
Korainth thinks that a updated DLCS will be needed sometime in the future and would be willing to buy. Whether it takes the form of a whole new book or a magazine, sourcebook or newsletter makes little difference. He would be willing to buy whether it was the same thing reprinted with some new stuff or an entirely new product.
LordOfIllusions on the other would not be willing to buy said product if it was an updated version. If it was an entirely new product with little connection to the previous product then he may be willing to buy it.
Please stop beating a dead dragon. It is just disrespectful, unless it is a white dragon of course. :D :D :D :D :D
Please stop beating a dead dragon. It is just disrespectful, unless it is a white dragon of course. :D :D :D :D :D
What about beating a draconian trooper from Kang's Regiment? Is that permissible? :D
It appears from my conversation with Baron the Curse in this thread that he truly wants a revision and is trying to gather a sizable vote. As you can tell, based on the evidence presented, I'm not yet convinced that a revision is necessary.
I welcome you all to try and persuade me otherwise. But from where I'm looking, Baron the Curse, I doubt you will find this poll unfavorable.
Hmm. "Vote" and "Poll." Must be election day.
Better to focus on the new and create a revised DLCS when it's really needed a few years down the line.
What about beating a draconian trooper from Kang's Regiment? Is that permissible?
Yes this is very permisable. As I always, or almost always, play the bad guys and Kang's regiment seem to lean towards good you can beat them anytime you want.
Yes while I would almost certainly buy a revised DLCS, at just about anypoint that it comes out, I would prefer to see Sovereign Press create a magazine line similiar in scope to the "Dungeon" & "Dragon" magazines. Sovereign press of course would focus on the DL product (but almost certainly would have stuff from Sovereign Stone I believe it is.) The way I envision the magazine is it gives a synapsis of the current novel and maybe even a map or two of some places in the book, sorta like a module that followers the storyline of the current novel. But it would also have articles that explain what effect the book has on the overall picture of Krynn, not just Ansalon, but krynn as well. Also seeing as how Taladas gets little recognition as the other half of the planet SP could even do a short story line on Taladas or even Selasia in the magazine, that way they would not have to worry so much about novels for these little explored continents. I would love to see comics int he magazine that are based on DL specific types. For instance perhaps a comic strip that follows a kender around Ansalon.
Anyway, while I keep wishing, I might as well wish for a million bucks, because I don't think this magazine thing is going to happen.
Yes while I would almost certainly buy a revised DLCS, at just about anypoint that it comes out, I would prefer to see Sovereign Press create a magazine line similiar in scope to the "Dungeon" & "Dragon" magazines.
Sovereign Press has a couple of things in the works which may be along the lines of what you're thinking. There's going to be more official web material coming out (such as the recent dreadwolf stats), and we're planning on relaunching Legends of the Lance as well in PDF format.
We hope to accomplish a lot with these projects, including giving some new official materials for use in campaigns as well as touching upon some subjects that aren't covered in current sourcebooks (i.e. Chaos War).
So keep watching. We've got lots of fun things in the works.
Sovereign Press has a couple of things in the works which may be along the lines of what you're thinking. There's going to be more official web material coming out (such as the recent dreadwolf stats), and we're planning on relaunching Legends of the Lance as well in PDF format.
We hope to accomplish a lot with these projects, including giving some new official materials for use in campaigns as well as touching upon some subjects that aren't covered in current sourcebooks (i.e. Chaos War).
So keep watching. We've got lots of fun things in the works.
No offense to anyone, but if the materials posted on sites don't come from Sovereign Press (ie from fans) then I won't use it. I'm kinda one of those fanatical 'must use official stuff only' kinda guys. If the materials are coming from SP though, bring it on! :D
I don't care what most people say, I think almost all of the people who frequent the boards would buy a revised book. I actually think most Dragonlance fans would buy it. I think a lot of people are saying they wouldn't just because they would like to see other things come first. But if Sovereign Press did release it, I bet most fans would buy it. Most products that come out I think most fans buy them all anyways. Its sort of like being a completist. But then again, I am a completist. That's why I shelled out a little bit of money for my Mina miniature, but worth the money to know I have it and can use it. But again this is all my opinion, I just believe most people would buy it if they were interested in Dragonlance.
I actually think most Dragonlance fans would buy it. I think a lot of people are saying they wouldn't just because they would like to see other things come first. But if Sovereign Press did release it, I bet most fans would buy it.
:heehee
Ah, a fortune teller!
Thank you True Blue for informing others of what they would do based solely upon what you would do.
~~~
Informing is when someone gives facts or information. All I did was tell you my opinion, which is allowed =). And I would actually bet that you would buy the revised book also, but again its my opinion :D
If you scan through the boards, most of the people who talk on here buy pretty much every book that comes out of Sovereign Press. And most people endorse all the books and tell others just how good they are. The real question is Would the casual Dragonlance gamer buy the book? Thats a bigger market. You can almost always assume the diehard fan will buy it. I bet that all the books that have come from Sovereign Press have done really well, so as long as they keep releasing products with the same quality I think its safe to assume that those would do well also.
As I said, most people who say they dont want it, I still believe would buy the thing if it was sitting on the shelves. Especially people here on the boards would buy it considering after every new book that comes out there is a lot of talk about it and then people say stuff like "man I need to get that..". *shrug* again.. my opinion :D
No offense to anyone, but if the materials posted on sites don't come from Sovereign Press (ie from fans) then I won't use it. I'm kinda one of those fanatical 'must use official stuff only' kinda guys. If the materials are coming from SP though, bring it on! :D
While I disagree with the sentiment, I can understand where you're coming from.
Rest assured that all materials on Dragonlance.com are official now, and approved by Jamie Chambers. For example, he looked over the dreadwolf before I could post it.
As DL.com releases more materials, you can be assured that they will all have Sovereign Press looking over them, and have their seal of approval.
Ah, a fortune teller!
Thank you True Blue for informing others of what they would do based solely upon what you would do.
Actually, True Blue is not that far off. Maybe it's the label, but ever since 3.5e appeared on the shelves, it's been flying off the shelves (though not nearly as fast as the 3.0e launch). I mean, it's been only a year and now they're set to release a second printing batch.
There are some, not few, devoted DL fans that are willing to buy the new revised book for the sake of ... well, Dragonlance.
But there will be others who will resist it. Hey, if I can hold off buying 3.5e until August 2005, I'm sure others will hold off until the revised DLCS is being reviewed and publicly commented by fellow customers.
- was by Sovereign Press
- included the errata
- included the DM screen
- included the web enhancement map as an upgraded high definition poster
- included an adventure booklet with either a small campaign or several small adventures (or both)
- had entirely new art
But then I was always a dreamer.
I would buy an updated DLCS if it:
- was by Sovereign Press
I doubt they can publish it due the licensing agreement between WotC and them. Be glad SP are the ones who wrote the content.
- included the errata
WotC's current format is to provide errata correction in future printings. For example, the soon-to-be released 3.5e PHB Second Printing will include corrections from errata from the First Printing.
- included the DM screen
It's rare to find a DM screen attached to a hardbound core rulebook.
- included the web enhancement map as an upgraded high definition poster
It can be provided on the website, not necessarily included with the book (other than a printed map).
- included an adventure booklet with either a small campaign or several small adventures (or both)
An introductory adventure is okay. What you described can be included as a bonus to the DM Screen product (sold separately from the DLCS).
- had entirely new art
It would disappoint me if original DL artists' artworks are not included. I can tolerate Stawicki's arts, but it's not DL without Elmore's and/or Parkinson's.
It's like with The Lord of the Rings. As much as I like Alan Lee and John Howe's artwork (which came true to life on Peter Jackson's adapted film), I still have a place in my heart, mind and eyes for Brothers Hildebrandt's contribution to Tolkien's world in vision.
haha touchy arent ya?
Informing is when someone gives facts or information. All I did was tell you my opinion, which is allowed =).
To inform is to impart information or knowledge. Now we must ascertain if what you wrote qualifies as information(or knowledge.).
The definition of information for True Blue:
Main Entry: in·for·ma·tion
Pronunciation: "in-f&r-'mA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence
Writing/Composition is a form of intellgience. Intelligience is defined as "the act of understanding: comprehension", which is an ability to believe or infer something is indeed the case. The internet itself is known as the information highway. There are many websites that do not contain factual information, yet it qualifies as information nonetheless.
Have you ever heard someone make the following statement ?: "I must have received the wrong information."
And I would actually bet that you would buy the revised book also, but again its my opinion :D
You sure do an awful lot of wagering on your own self-made assumptions.
I bet that all the books that have come from Sovereign Press have done really well, so as long as they keep releasing products with the same quality I think its safe to assume that those would do well also.
Refer to my previous response(Concerning your wagering.)
CONCLUSION(Sarcasm included within.): I am communicating with an opinionated fortune teller that has a gambling problem.
~~~
There are some, not few, devoted DL fans that are willing to buy the new revised book for the sake of ... well, Dragonlance.
But there will be others who will resist it. Hey, if I can hold off buying 3.5e until August 2005, I'm sure others will hold off until the revised DLCS is being reviewed and publicly commented by fellow customers.
LoL!
What makes the above comment(s) seem the most absurd is not the fact that it is defending True Blue's fictional prophecy, rather that you are speaking of said fictional item(A revised DLCS.) as if it truly exists at the time.
~~~
... True Blue's fictional prophecy...
It's speculation, not soothsaying. People here speculate all the time.
It's speculation, not soothsaying. People here speculate all the time.
The above was sarcasm, did you actually believe I thought him/her a prophet ? Also, people speculating all the time does not make said speculations accurate in the least.
~~~
The above was sarcasm, did you actually believe I thought him/her a prophet ?
~~~
Of course not. But speculation about this sort of thing is not so ridiculous as it seems you're making it out to be.
It's just speculation. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, I don't think anyone's saying you must.
Of course not. But speculation about this sort of thing is not so ridiculous as it seems you're making it out to be.
Actually it is quite ridiculous when the one whom has been pointing your assumptions out to be nothing more than mere assumptions is being included in said speculation.
It's just speculation. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, I don't think anyone's saying you must.
The following statement comes quite close: "And I would actually bet that you would buy the revised book also.."
When one takes to telling others what they would do(Even if they have specified they would do otherwise.) one should expect to be disagreed with.
In conclusion of my post; I think another poster here pretty much summed it up(In his own words.): "I think the dominate idea here is buying a "revised" DLCS is silly."
~~~
Actually it is quite ridiculous when the one whom has been pointing your assumptions out to be no more than mere assumptions is being included in said speculation.
To quote a favorite movie of mine, "You truly have a dizzying intellect."
No offense, LoI. I just thought this particular statement was funny...and hard to follow...and I try to never pass up an opportunity to quote The Princess Bride.
:D
To quote a favorite movie of mine, "You truly have a dizzying intellect."
No offense, LoI. I just thought this particular statement was funny...and hard to follow...and I try to never pass up an opportunity to quote The Princess Bride.
:D
*Comment thrown to the wind*
~~~
*Comment thrown to the wind*
Man...you need to smile more. You're jusht sho sherioush all da time.
If Sovereign Press where to do a Revised Dragonlance Campaign book, how many of you would buy it? Lets say the book was reformatted, so all the magical items and NPC stats where in their own separate section, all errata updated, and perhaps as a bonus maybe add 10% to the book, add a little more to the Geography section like they did in WotL. And while we are at it this one could bring a fold-up map. Is wishful thinking but I’ve seen it done before in the past by other gaming companies. I would pick it up for one. :D
If the only thing new in a revised edition were the errata and an expanded geography section (as per WotL), I'd buy the book in a heartbeat. Then again, I buy just about everything Dragonlance ...
Man...you need to smile more. You're jusht sho sherioush all da time.
LOL! That's so funny (and true!).
LoL!
What makes the above comment(s) seem the most absurd is not the fact that it is defending True Blue's fictional prophecy, rather that you are speaking of said fictional item(A revised DLCS.) as if it truly exists at the time.
Well, I will try not to take offense of your statement and that smiley at the end, but at least you get the gist. IME, I'm wary of buying the first printing of most products these days, unless the review is favorable and the errata is minimal. It's no secret, WotC's editing performance is sub par, if not mediocre at best.
The count is:
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 5
(Baron the Curse, Mucknuggle, Darthsylver, Jonesy, Iltharanos)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 8
(Brimstone, Sysane, Dragonhelm, wolfenjugend, Korainth, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 9
(Silvathalus, Ferratus, Miles, Ranger REG, daedavis, Talinthas, Frostdawn, True Blue, Clark Valentine).
When asked their opinion about a revised DLCS the people who would buy it had this to say:
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
I hate the current DLCS. I've been wanting a revised one the day after I got it.
Orignally posted by Darthsylver
TO be honest with you I really hate revised books, because as mentioned above, I do believe they just a way to make more money.
However, as I have purchased every revised book for 3E already, to include the new complete series books (just reprinted Tome & Blood, Sword & Fist, etc... with some updates of course) as well as the revised Star wars.
I just gotta have the most current rules on hand.
Originally posted by Jonesy
I would buy an updated DLCS if it:
- was by Sovereign Press
- included the errata
- included the DM screen
- included the web enhancement map as an upgraded high definition poster
- included an adventure booklet with either a small campaign or several small adventures (or both)
- had entirely new art
Originally posted by Iltharanos
If the only thing new in a revised edition were the errata and an expanded geography section (as per WotL), I'd buy the book in a heartbeat.
The fans who declared they would not buy a revised DLCS were equally verbal about their feelings, here are some of their comments:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Revised books tick me off. (ie, 3.5 CRBs, Revised Star Wars book, etc.)
Originally posted by Sysane
Revised books are nothing but a $$$ making ploy in most cases.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I hate the idea of buying the same book twice.
Originally posted by Wolfenjugend
I wouldn't buy it. For me, the DLCS was just a tide-me-over 'til the WotL book came out.
Originally posted by Korainth
a "players guide to" or something of the sort would be much better than a revised DLCS.
Originally posted by Wolf72
No I wouldn't buy a revised book
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I would not buy yet another DragonLance Campaign Setting.
Originally posted by Valharic
I wouldn't buy a revised edition.
While there are some people who have not decided or felt it better to not declare their decision on whether they woould buy revised DLCS, they did has this to say:
Originally posted by Silvathalas
a new book based on WotL's design would be better
Originally posted by ferratus
I'd have to wait and see how things turn out. While I loathe the DLCS, there are certain things that would make it difficult to produce a revised version, and difficult for me to buy it.
Originally posted by Miles
I'd like to have a good old fashioned box set. With maps, adventures, setting information.
Originally posted by Ranger Reg
I don't see that much complaints nor abundant fan feedback regarding the 2003 campaign setting book.
Originally posted by Daedavis
One thing that I think that Dragonlance could benefit from is the inclusion of little world updates at the beginning of each book
Originally posted by Frostdawn
No offense to anyone, but if the materials posted on sites don't come from Sovereign Press (ie from fans) then I won't use it.
Originally posted by True Blue
I buy almost all of the books anyways for D&D, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc so I usually have a lot of books to search through anyways.
Originally posted by Talinthas
two chickens in every pot, two solamnics in every garage?
This reporter is not quite sure what to make of Mr. Talinthas's comment but he has definantly spoken his mind.
So there you have it folks, the official-unofficial exit polls, of the 2004 DLCS revision debate. This is Darthsylver reporting live from Palanthas.
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 8
(Brimstone, Sysane, Dragonhelm, wolfenjugend, Korainth, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric)
This may not be a fully accurate statement. Let me clarify.
My stance is that I would rather focus on new things, and I don't think there's enough errata to warrant a new sourcebook.
That being said, I would buy any new DL gaming book out there. I may not agree to how it is being done, but I would always find some useful info in it.
I would daresay that a number of people fall into the category of "I would rather SP not do a revised sourcebook, but I'd buy it just because it is DL."
After the remaining "core" accessory books come out however (HOotS, Primal Magics, and Legends), I would think that one could and should IMO be released just on the basis of consolidating all new material (see above) in one book.
Of course Like DH, should one be published before set occurances, I would most likely buy it just because it was out there.
After the remaining "core" accessory books come out however (HOotS, Primal Magics, and Legends), I would think that one could and should IMO be released just on the basis of consolidating all new material (see above) in one book.
I could see eventually getting to that point. With any setting that moves forward like DL does story-wise, eventually a new sourcebook becomes almost essential.
Give it maybe 3-5 years, and I think we may be at that point. By that time, we'll have some major jumps forward in the setting, so we can add all that info. A revised sourcebook should, IMO, include the half-kender and Tarmak from Age of Mortals, the mariner and master base classes (as well as any new classes that come along), and the WotL feats. Add to that expanded history and geographical information, and perhaps some new and nifty PrCs beyond what's in the DLCS (handler and tinker come to mind). Plus, use the revised WoHS PrC from ToHS, as it is so much clearer.
For now, though, I think things are going splendidly. We have so much more to explore, and I'd like to make sure we explore it in full before re-addressing those basics.
More fluff, less crunch.
Ouch!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I would buy any new DL gaming book out there.
or after certain other products have been published:
Originally posted by Korainth
After the remaining "core" accessory books come out however (HOotS, Primal Magics, and Legends), I would think that one could and should IMO be released just on the basis of consolidating all new material (see above) in one book.
Of course Like DH, should one be published before set occurances, I would most likely buy it just because it was out there.
So the polls now stand at
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 7
(Baron the Curse, Mucknuggle, Dragonhelm, Darthsylver, Jonesy, Korainth, Iltharanos)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 6
(Brimstone, Sysane, wolfenjugend, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 9
(Silvathalus, Ferratus, Miles, Ranger REG, daedavis, Talinthas, Frostdawn, True Blue, Clark Valentine).
As you can see folks, this is a hotly debated topic and nobody really knows how it will end. This reporter strives to bring you the truth, as it happens.
Reporting live from Palanthas, this is Darthsylver.
OOC:
Just in case there are some out there who do not know that these reporter postings of mine are for fun let me make it clear now, THEY ARE FOR FUN . If you don't want me to use anything you post, please state so and I will consider the posts off-limits. Just remember it's all fun and games. :D :D :D :D :D
Breaking news, sudden clarification of two previous posts. Apparently this reporter misuderstood the stance of two Dragonlance fans in his previous report. Due to the misunderstanding Dragonhelm and Korainth were places the polls as fans who would not buy a revised DLCS, this two long-time fans of dragonlance have FLIPPED-FLOPPED or as some would like to say, clarified, their position and now state that they would buy said fictional product:
You just had to go there, didn't ya?
To clarify my clarification...
To which I would like to add...
So in the spirit of, uh...., bi-partisanship, I say we do the following...
G'day!
So the polls now stand at
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 7
(Baron the Curse, Mucknuggle, Dragonhelm, Darthsylver, Jonesy, Korainth, Iltharanos)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 6
(Brimstone, Sysane, wolfenjugend, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 9
(Silvathalus, Ferratus, Miles, Ranger REG, daedavis, Talinthas, Frostdawn, True Blue, Clark Valentine).
Now these statistics are more like it! It seems like the undecided “silent” consumers will be the ones that will decide in the end if we get a Revised Dragonlance Campaign book.
Some of my opponents say that “it is too early” or “too soon” to see a Revised book. Let me ask you something, would a true Dragonlance fan say such words? It is never too soon or early for a new Dragonlance product. I say we get a Revised book and all the future Dragonlance upcoming products. Viva La Lance!
This post was paid for by the Squirrel Nation Free Republic.
It seems that at least one person has come off the sidelines and declared for a party. Mr.(?) daedavis has declared intentions of not buying a revised DLCS book should such a product be published.
Originally posted by Daedavis
I would not buy a Revised DLCS. I think with the product schedule, it is unneeded.
Even though Mr. Daedavis states that he would not buy a revised DLCS, his statement does give the hint that should said product be produced at a later date, then mr. Daedavis may buy such product.
So the polls now stand at
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 7
(Baron the Curse, Mucknuggle, Dragonhelm, Darthsylver, Jonesy, Korainth, Iltharanos)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 7
(Brimstone, Sysane, wolfenjugend, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric, daedavis)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 8
(Silvathalus, Ferratus, Miles, Ranger REG, Talinthas, Frostdawn, True Blue, Clark Valentine).
This does not bode well for Mr. the Curse's campaign for a revised DLCS. With so many Dragonlance Fans sitting on the sidelines we may never reach a successful conclusion to the 2004 Revised DLCS debate.
This reporter will continue to bring you updates as they come in.
Reporting live from Palanthas, this is Darthsylver .
The reason the Revised 3.5e was created was because there was substantial amounts of change that occured within the D&D rules. Many of the feats, spells, and character classes changed. Most of these changes could not be done through errata, so they kinda had to make a new set of books.
Actually, what I meant was that considering the upcoming products, an updated DLCS is kinda unneeded. All the problems can be addressed much like they were in the Towers of High Sorcery book, with errata being included within upcoming books. Besides, if one has the AoM and WotL, they can easily fill in ALL of the gaps in the Geography section and timeline.
The reason the Revised 3.5e was created was because there was substantial amounts of change that occured within the D&D rules. Many of the feats, spells, and character classes changed. Most of these changes could not be done through errata, so they kinda had to make a new set of books.
~~~
Darthsylver hit gamers fast and hard with his political commentary. Who can forget the Monte Cook appearance where he said, "I'm against the 3.5 revision. You should all check out Arcana Evolved, though...."
Darthsylver was always one to entertain as well. Remember the Weis and Hickman sing-a-long?
"You type the verbs, I type the nouns. We'll vote on the adjectives, and the adverbs come around."
And who can forget the "drow-and-orc shuffle"?
Darthsylver's sensitive side was not to be deterred, though....
"Dragonhelm? That HACK? Why would I ever want him on my....uh....Live from Palanthas, this is Darthsylver....."
Okay, what's the big idea? That wasn't the right clip! If I find out who has been messing with my stuff...
:d :d :d :d :d
Isn't that the "you're so delicious, I'm licking my lips" smiley? :P
Good evening folks this is Darthsylver coming at you live from Palanthas.
*In best Darth Vader voice:*
I have taught you well, young one. Now you know the power of the silly side of the force.
[/darthvadervoice]
In breaking news, I might buy a revised DLCS. Just might.
Go ahead. Score that one.
Originally posted by Rooks
I might buy a revised DLCS. Just might.
Go ahead. Score that one.
So that puts the polls at
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 8
(Baron the Curse, Mucknuggle, Dragonhelm, Darthsylver, Jonesy, Korainth, Iltharanos, Rooks.)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 7
(Brimstone, Sysane, wolfenjugend, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric, daedavis)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 8
(Silvathalus, Ferratus, Miles, Ranger REG, Talinthas, Frostdawn, True Blue, Clark Valentine).
While Mr. Rooks had stated that we can count on his vote for a buy, there is a bit of hesitancy in his voice, especially with that MIGHT. As in the past nobody really knows what Mr. Rooks is likely to do.
Reporting to you live, this is Darthsylver, in Palanthas.
OOC: Glad to see you are still around rooks. We kinda lost sight of you for awhile.
It seems that we have another vote for both sides of this debate:
Originally posted by Dragontooth
Depends on the book, and how much better it was. But more then likely I wouldn't buy the book.
While that vote is a little iffy, we will count it as a vote for not buying a revised DLCS for now.
On the other side of the debate we have a comment from Mr. Mortepierre
Originally posted by Mortepierre
I would buy it. Nuff said ;)
This will give the buying side of the debate a slight advantage over the not buying side of the debate with the polls now standing at
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 9
(Baron the Curse, Mucknuggle, Dragonhelm, Darthsylver, Jonesy, Korainth, Iltharanos, Rooks, mortepierre.)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 8
(Brimstone, Sysane, wolfenjugend, Wolf72, LordofIllusions, Valheric, daedavis, dragontooth)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 8
(Silvathalus, Ferratus, Miles, Ranger REG, Talinthas, Frostdawn, True Blue, Clark Valentine).
Stay turned to your local palanthas news channel for all your news on the 2004 Revised DLCS debate.
At this time we would to insure that these polls are not the official results of the 2004 Revised DLCS debate. This news station only reports estimates based on the information this news service can gather from the exit polls as our reporters talk to those voters leaving the voting booths. I say again, these are not the official results of the 2004 Revised DLCS debate.
This is Darthsylver, reporting live, from palanthas.
On another note, all SP has to do is announce that they are actually trying to revise a book that I already have in less than two years(The DLCS was released in September of 2003. The ink has not even dried yet.) after said book's release, and not only will I stop buying their DL products but I will tell each and everyone of my gamers to do so as well. As a company they should know that they cannot just cater to hardcore fans of the setting(I think SP is smart enough to know that the hardcore fan base of DragonLance is nowhere near the size of the D&D fanbase as a whole.).
They have to think in terms of the masses that play DL, and revising a book just because something changes in a novel, etc. is just plain silly, not to mention a blatant disrespect for the gamers'(Those who are not hardcore DL heads.) money. Although I have dozens of DL novels, gaming materials ,etc., and am quite fond of the setting(I even bought Amber & Ashes and started reading it[Due to Jamie Chambers saying I would like the book and that it would show me another side of Mina.].); I will not support a revision(Of a book I already have.) every other year or two.
Now when the next edition of D&D comes out a few years down the road of course the book we will need a new DLCS(Not a revised one.) , but as of right now let's just see a free update(On the DL website.) or a $15 world book, after the current release schedule is complete.
~~~
With the way books are published, it isn't out of the question to make corrections, add new material, or revise the document before it goes off to a second or third printing. In many cases this is simple common sense and best practice. It isn't a stunt to make people buy the book again, it's making use of an opportunity. For example, if Sovereign Press made corrections in one of its current stable of sold-out products, I don't imagine this would be seen as a bad thing.
Wizards of the Coast released a special, deluxe edition leatherbound copy of the 3.5 Player's Handbook recently. It's the same book on the inside, but it has had errata incorporated into it. There was an uproar about this, by folks who thought it was a stunt to get money. It wasn't. It was a collector's edition book, with a limited print run, and to leave out the errata would have just been pointless.
I am constantly amazed at the us vs. them customer mindset in the USA. I've been on both sides of the counter, both as a customer and a store manager for a gaming & comics bookstore, and now I'm seeing it from the point of view of a designer and freelancer, and I just can't buy into that attitude. I'm surprised people stay in the industry at all, and I'm sure there have been people who've just quit because of it. Professionalism isn't something that's limited to the professionals - common courtesy greases the wheels a lot more than you think.
Cheers,
Cam
The leatherbound PHB was made in addition to the original PHB 3.5(It was made for collectors.), they did not just decide to look at the boards, see a handful of people whining over the PHB, and then after less than two years revise the original PHB(Which is what is going on here.). Now I do not care what you claim, if they revise a book they just put out less than two years after it was released they stand to lose alot of gamers(My players, and I, shall be among those they lose.).
A new accessory with new stuff in it is fine(Basically following the product release schedule that already have.), many posters have already suggested this. Why do you not support that ?
It almost seems as if Cam Banks, as one of the DL designers, has joined the conversation in order to convince people that a revised DLCS is a good thing, and that it is actually coming out soon. Again, if that happens(Within such a short time span.) DL loses alot of gamers. Both I(And my players.) own more than a few campaign settings and I/they will not hesitate to drop the one I/they see paying the least respect to my pockets.
~~~
With the way books are published, it isn't out of the question to make corrections, add new material, or revise the document before it goes off to a second or third printing. In many cases this is simple common sense and best practice. It isn't a stunt to make people buy the book again, it's making use of an opportunity. For example, if Sovereign Press made corrections in one of its current stable of sold-out products, I don't imagine this would be seen as a bad thing.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post Cam and I apologies if I am. People (at least on this thread) aren't complaining or against corrections being made in 2nd or 3rd printings of existing DL books. They are more concerned about if a brand new DLCS is really called for at this point. That is to say that is there really a need for new DLCS source book encompassing a new layout, material, additional rules, cover art, etc...? At this time I would say no. Maybe down the line in 3 to 4 years it would be needed.
This thread is being discussed in a purely speculative point of view anyhow (at least I think it is?). There hasn't been an announcement weather a new DLCS is being released or not either way.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post Cam and I apologies if I am. People (at least on this thread) aren't complaining or against corrections being made in 2nd or 3rd printings of existing DL books. They are more concerned about if a brand new DLCS is really called for at this point. That is to say that is there really a need for new DLCS source book encompassing a new layout, material and additional rules, cover art, etc...? At this time I would say no. Maybe down the line in 3 to 4 years.
This thread is being discussed in a purely speculative point of view anyhow (at least I think it is?). There hasn't been an announcement weather a new DLCS is being released or not either way.
Great post Sysane, It almost sounds as if Cam is trying to sell people on this revising nonsense.
Also, I would like to take this time to apologize to you for the way I reacted on the thread where you were asking for help on the "Blade of Betrayal". I actually found some extra information, about converting evil magic items, in the Book of Exalted Deeds if you still need it(I cannot post it word-for-word but I can summarize it.).
~~~
Great post Sysane, It almost sounds as if Cam is trying to sell people on this revising nonsense.
Also, I would like to take this time to apologize to you for the way I reacted on the thread where you were asking for help on the Blade of Betrayal. I actually found some extra information, about converting evil magic items, in the Book of Exalted Deeds if you still need it(I cannot post it word-for-word but I can summarize it.).
~~~
I don't know if Cam's trying to sell us on anything, but I think he's just misinterpreting the thread. I could be wrong, and again, I'm sorry if I am.
Don't worry about the other thread Bro. I try not to take things to personal on here. I found those same rules as well. Thanks though
I don't know if Cam's trying to sell us on anything, but I think he's just misinterpreting the thread. I could be wrong, and again, I'm sorry if I am.
Don't worry about the other thread Bro. I try not to take things to personal on here. I found those same rules as well. Thanks though
On pg. 119 of the Book of Exalted Deeds("Redeeming Evil Magic Items"), right ?
~~~
On pg. 119 of the Book of Exalted Deeds("Redeeming Evil Magic Items"), right ?
~~~
Exactly. That and redemption of evil beings.
Exactly. That and redemption of evil beings.
I actually found the ruleset quite interesting, as a matter-of-fact I am starting a thread concerning the BoED & DragonLance.
I think it is a very important book when one is playing within the DL world.
~~~
I don't know if Cam's trying to sell us on anything,
He's almost certainly not, as he's a freelancer for Sovereign Press, and the DLCS is published by WOTC. And if he wanted a second printing of something, he'd be talking up the one with his name on the cover. And he's one of the most sincere and least salesman-like guys I've ever met in my life.
I think Cam's point is twofold:
a) If there's a second print run, shouldn't they include errata and fixes to identified problems in the text? (You do seem to address this, Sysane.)
b) I think that it's not that he doesn't understand people not wanting to buy a revised edition - I probably wouldn't buy one either - but he doesn't grok the emotional adversarial reaction that even a baseless rumor generates. Why do people assume publishers are looking for new and creative ways to give their customers the shaft?
If there's a second print run, shouldn't they include errata and fixes to identified problems in the text? (You do seem to address this, Sysane.)
I personally don't see an issue with 2nd printings being released with corrected content so long as there is a free official errata available to those who already have the book.
Now, if Cam is talking about a whole new version of the DLCS - that's a different story. I think a lot of people would be turned off by it. Personally, it wouldn't make a difference to me as I wouldn't be buying it. I think it would hurt sales though. A good example is the Ravenloft series. There are now so many versions of the core RPH/RDMG that I don't even know what's what anymore. It's just too much. So I don't buy the Ravenloft "core" stuff anymore (b/c so much is just overlap) but just stick to the campaign sourcebooks.
The revision did not come about until 2003(3 years later.). One of the posters here is asking that they totally revise the DLCS because he does not like how the current one is lain out. It is whining.
This is why posters are saying, nay, it is not needed. There is a difference between someone saying that if SP did rush it out(Which would be silly.) they would buy it, simply because they buy any and everything DL, as opposed to them saying that they want and need a revised DLCS.
b.) What the original poster, and Cam seem to be missing is contrary to what some may think people do not like revisions, in particular revisions that occur quickly for no good reason. A few new novels being released, or wanting an index, etc. is not a good reason to basically tell consumers "Hey since my hardcore fan so-and-so wants a new book and my handful of hardcore fans on the boards like it, I am going to revise the books you broke your neck to get every two years! You don't like it tough, don't buy it!"
That is just bad business. Now I like DL, I really do, but if they are going to start doing this revising rush nonsense rather than focusing on getting out the books that are actually needed; I(And my players.) will drop my/our DL books on Ebay in a second and only DM/play Eberron.
~~~
That is to say, if there is substantial change in the world to necessitate a new core book, i'm all for it. otherwise, books like AoM and WotL are all we need, since they append and revise the core book as needed for their era.
to be perfectly honest, i use the DLCS only for character gen. after that, its all the supplements. my game was a chaos war game, so i used the bestiary and chunks of KoD and AoM.
the core book is the weakest book in the line. Everything in it that needed to be revised was revised in subsequent books. redoing the core is a silly idea, since it would basically coallate and reprint what we already have.
the only concept of revised DL book i want is revised in the same way that the DLCS revises the SAGA core box which revised TotL which revised DLA.
That is to say, if there is substantial change in the world to necessitate a new core book, i'm all for it. otherwise, books like AoM and WotL are all we need, since they append and revise the core book as needed for their era.
to be perfectly honest, i use the DLCS only for character gen. after that, its all the supplements. my game was a chaos war game, so i used the bestiary and chunks of KoD and AoM.
the core book is the weakest book in the line. Everything in it that needed to be revised was revised in subsequent books. redoing the core is a silly idea, since it would basically coallate and reprint what we already have.
*Round of applause for Talinthas*
You mean you do not wish to revise your AoM book since a new book was released and Mina now worships Chemosh rather than Takhisis ? Shame on you Talinthas! You are no true DL fan! You should want, and pay for, a revision every year or so, only then can you qualify for the true fan of the year award. 
~~~
What the original poster, and Cam seem to be missing is ... people do not like revisions, in particular revisions that occur quickly for no good reason.
I don't think Cam is suggesting that a revision - defined as big changes beyond errata and small amounts of new (not changed) material - is necessary or desireable, and he is by no means trying to sell anyone on the idea. He was defending the idea of adding errata and a bit of new material to a second print run, a position I find quite reasonable.
And it's all purely theoretical at this point anyway, as nobody for WOTC is even talking about a second print run of DLCS as far as I know. Hasn't Jamie already said that no, there isn't one in the works, at least not from SP?
But then again, AoM had a lot of really cool stuff in it, like the cities, flora and fauna, and stuff.
really though, looking forward, i'd say that WotL has set the new benchmark by which all DL should be judged.
really though, looking forward, i'd say that WotL has set the new benchmark by which all DL should be judged.
It's really going to be hard to top that one - WoTL is a masterpiece.
Actually, i do want a revised AoM, if only cause i think that it should have been much more than it was. I liked it alot, don't get me wrong, but now that i've seen what they can do with WotL, i'd kill to see that treatment given to the fifth age.
But then again, AoM had a lot of really cool stuff in it, like the cities, flora and fauna, and stuff.
really though, looking forward, i'd say that WotL has set the new benchmark by which all DL should be judged.
I want a revised revision, just for the sake of revising. What they should do is revise all of the books and then a month later(<--The timeframe is important, you must revise before the ink dries on said products.), revise the revision. You know keep a hole in consumers' pockets.
Also, I want a revised Bestiary of Krynn. I think the dragons on the front should have been "walking" instead of "flying."
~~~
Oh...and as for 2nd printings (which are not the same as a "revision" by my definition)...I think it would be silly to do a 2nd printing without including the errata...if it didn't cost a butt-load more because you had to re-set everything. If it does take a lot more time and money to include the errata...I can understand why a smaller company wouldn't do it.
LoI...why are you so ticked about this. You act as if they're actually going to do this. Sovereign Press has never said they will...the thread was started as a hypothetical question. Why are you jumping all over SP for this? Hell...the DLCS isn't even their book.
Because I want the SP staff to undergo a revision ? Just in case you have not noticed, I stopped being serious about this three posts ago; I am only joking now.
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Because I want the SP staff to undergo a revision ? Just in case you have not noticed, I stopped being serious about this three posts ago; I am only joking now.
I was talking about the previous page's stuff.
LoI...why are you so ticked about this?
I think he summarized it nicely by saying:
Some people have way too much time on their hands.
Talinthas, change my vote to a definite yes. I will, however, go on record saying that no DL product needs revising. Besides, SP isn't even talking about that.
In fact, pretty much all of these changes can be dropped. Other than Linsha and Jasper we don't have any NPC stat blocks for mystics do we? I think Dunbar Mastermate is the only stat block with mariner in it.
So yeah, some fairly significant revisions that have to be done.
It could also stand a glut of new material, such as a rogues' gallery, a sample adventure, new organizations, and breakdowns of military and mercenary units in the 5th Age. Revise the player's stuff, and add 50% of what makes designing adventures easier and less time consuming.
I'd have to say that I would buy a revised DLCS, simply because I hate the old one so much. If it was just a reprinting with errata, I wouldn't bother because I've already got most of the errata in subsequent products. It have to be an extremely significant revision. Extremely.
Otherwise like I said a "Player's Guide" would be more up my alley, with an Atlas as a product that comes later. This isn't because I want to pay for two different books, but because I feel the gaming world is too turbulent right now with the novel setting. All the DL authors are getting the chance to write their "epic" storylines which will change the face of Krynn. That's okay, I have no beef with that, but if we're going to write a geography chapter for the 5th Age that's going to last a few years, we should wait until things quiet down a bit and the authors become satisfied with character driven stories again. We have the WotL geography chapter and cultural writeup now, so we can afford to wait.
Oh, one final note on the player's guide. We really need to decide if the Silvanesti or Qualinesti are getting their homes back in the 5th Age. If not, we really don't need both racial writeups and should make racial writeups suitable to their new status in the world.
Neither the Mariner or the Mystic class is inteneded (IMO from reading the books) to be an NPC class.
The mariner is more than just a limited rogue. The Mariner is an amalgam of Bard, Rogue, and Fighter (almost like a ship-based swashbuckler). I cannot go further into the Mariner as this time as I have not played one yet, as I have with the Mystic.
The Mystic is to the Cleric, What the Sorceror is to the Wizard. Mystic and Sorceror use the exact same Spells per day and spells known. THe mystic however does get an extra spell at each spell level other than 0-level spells. THe mystic in fact can multiclass in order to gain access to other domains in order to enchance it's known spells without losing any of it's spellcasting ability. Yes the Mystic forces you to essentially become a specilized cleric. But if you are a War mystic (as I currently play) you do not need to know those helaing spells as the Mystic can still cast healing spells from scrolls. Right now I have a Mystic and a Cleric and I like playing the mystic better.
Elvensight I think should be expanded to the entire spectrum of D&D. I MO elvensight is an attempt to replicate what has been described in novels for DL as well as some for mainstream D&D.
The silvanesti are as different from the qualinesti as the kagonesti are to the qualinesti. The two different races had no to do with the fact that there were two different nations. These two subraces of elves are just that, they have grown into two different races. The Kagonesti have never really had a nation of their own so should we just take all three and write them into a single race?
In no way am I saying that any current projects should be dropped to start a Players Guide. Everything in the pipe should be finished first before any serious talk about a revsion or update book be put into the works.
Of course, I will add my disclaimer as usual. I would most likely buy a revised DLCS just because it would a DL product. I'd get everyone, that hasn't already, to sign the original and pack it away somewhere. But hey, that's just me.
I think he summarized it nicely by saying:
Actually it is you who must have "way too much time on his hands" being that the question was not addressed to you(The person being addressed was LoI[myself], not the user known as Rook.); yet you have taken the liberty to insert your own ludicrous opinion.
Next time remain silent on such matters(As the one above.).
~~~
Cheers,
Cam
~~~
I did not need you to tell me that(To inform me that there will be no DLCS.). I have already spoken with Jamie himself, you are late.
Not by much. 5 minutes ago the sig calling attention to this thread was still tagged in your messages.
But, hey, glad that's sorted out now.
Cheers,
Cam
Not by much. 5 minutes ago the sig calling attention to this thread was still tagged in your messages.
But, hey, glad that's sorted out now.
Cheers,
Cam
The sig was linked to an outside source(A thread outside of the WoTC boards.), not this thread.
Also, I was referring to the fact that SP has no plans to revise the DLCS when I stated the following : " I did not need you to tell me that(To inform me that there will be no DLCS.). I have already spoken with Jamie himself, you are late."
~~~
Also, I was referring to the fact that SP has no plans to revise the DLCS when I stated the following : " snip snip snip."
Yes, so was I.
Cheers,
Cam
This is not a reporter post.
Neither the Mariner or the Mystic class is inteneded (IMO from reading the books) to be an NPC class.
Oh, I'm quite aware they are not intended to be. If they were, they wouldn't need revision.
The mariner is more than just a limited rogue. The Mariner is an amalgam of Bard, Rogue, and Fighter (almost like a ship-based swashbuckler).
The Mariner could make a good PC class if it was given a warrior's BAB progression, or dirty strike was more useful. Sailor Lore can be replicated in most cases by gather information and Knowledge (local). Bardic Lore can pretty much be used on anything which would require any knowledge check.
Frankly, I'd play a Rogue with a few levels of fighter, even if it was a maritime campaign. The d8 hit points, bonus feats, and 6+Int skill points per level make the Mariner tempting, but not tempting enough.
THe mystic however does get an extra spell at each spell level other than 0-level spells. THe mystic in fact can multiclass in order to gain access to other domains in order to enchance it's known spells without losing any of it's spellcasting ability.
Yes, but they are limited by the number of spells they can select. This is really a problem when your party needs a healer, and the clerical spell list has less spells that you want to cast over and over again. You can't simply do a straight conversion to mystic without providing more blaster type divine spells. Plus you are losing the heavy armour and turning undead. This is very important. A possible revision to compensate for the loss of the turning undead could be that we give a class ability that mimics the "alternate uses for turning power" in the Complete Divine. As for the armour I don't see why mystics shouldn't be allowed to put on as much armour as they want.
Clerics get domain spells too, and clerics can also enhance its known spells through multiclassing in certain prestige classes. I don't see any difference there.
Yes the Mystic forces you to essentially become a specilized cleric. But if you are a War mystic (as I currently play) you do not need to know those helaing spells as the Mystic can still cast healing spells from scrolls. Right now I have a Mystic and a Cleric and I like playing the mystic better.
To make those scrolls, you still have to know that spell, which means it costs you a precious "spells known" slot. As well, those scrolls cost XP, and will often be going to benefit other players rather than yourself. As well, unlike a wizard, you have to spend a feat to scribe scrolls.
Elvensight I think should be expanded to the entire spectrum of D&D. I MO elvensight is an attempt to replicate what has been described in novels for DL as well as some for mainstream D&D.
No it doesn't. That single line in DoAT was to explain infravision, not darkvision. Infravision was appearantly the ability to "see" heat eminations. Darkvision is the ability to magically see without light.
Besides, elvensight works against that line Chronicles. Flint wasn't able to see Tasselhoff because all he could see was a white blur in the black and white picture of the bushes. Tanis however, kicks on his low-light vision and sees Tasselhoff's colourful garb, flushed cheeks, pearly white teeth, and all the other kenderish details. Plus, Tanis can see farther with his low-light vision than Flint can with his Darkvision. ;)
The silvanesti are as different from the qualinesti as the kagonesti are to the qualinesti. The two different races had no to do with the fact that there were two different nations. These two subraces of elves are just that, they have grown into two different races. The Kagonesti have never really had a nation of their own so should we just take all three and write them into a single race?
All the differences in the racial writeup are cultural. If they aren't going back to either Silvanesti or Qualinesti, and will continue to scatter and be ruled in exile by the same King... then we should address that. The biggest annoyance for the both the DLCS and the AoM was that didn't really talk about the elves in exile, but kept refering to the pre-exile period.
If we aren't ever going to see Silvanesti or Qualinesti in a story again, then we should start talking about the elves that we will see. Wild and Ghetto elves for example. Elves based on the terrain they are dwelling in now (mountain, forest, arctic, desert). Elves divided based on religion (Vengence and Light Elves).
Quote:by darthsylver
Yes the Mystic forces you to essentially become a specilized cleric. But if you are a War mystic (as I currently play) you do not need to know those helaing spells as the Mystic can still cast healing spells from scrolls. Right now I have a Mystic and a Cleric and I like playing the mystic better.
To make those scrolls, you still have to know that spell, which means it costs you a precious "spells known" slot. As well, those scrolls cost XP, and will often be going to benefit other players rather than yourself. As well, unlike a wizard, you have to spend a feat to scribe scrolls.
I never said the Mystic had to make the scrolls himself. He can however use the scrolls if made by someone else. These spells appear on the Cleric list which the Mystic selects his known spells from, but the mystic can still cast the spells even if he does not know them, just as a Wizard casting identify from a scroll that does not have it in his spellbook.
As far as the turning dead ability is concerned, IMO I do not see thqat as much of a loss except in the case of using it as a prerequisite for feats available in complete divine and book of exalted feats. If a mystic really wants Turn Undead he can take the Sun domain and he will be able to turn undead.
Now I will agree with you that the mystic should have the same armor profs as the cleric as the cleric can do an epiphany and switch to mystic and back and forth, just as the wizard and sorceror can do. With the sor & wiz the only diff is more spell castings per day with limited knowledge versus less casting per day but unlimited knowledge of spells. Yes IMO the mystic class does leave a little to be desired when thought of in this way, but I still believe it is a viable Player class.
The mystic is probably the best of the bunch, but its not unique in any way. They literally just dumbed down the cleric and let them cast spells spontaneously. I have a player who plays a mystic because he's never played one, since he's never played in DL. But I can't get any of my other players to really look at them in a serious light. The cleric is just a lot better. The mystic is just weak and gains absolutely nothing. Is spontaneous casting really *that* neat that it shouldnt get anything else?
The mariner and noble... *sigh*. Just icky. I mean seriously these classes are crap. The noble is just friggin useless. Its ability is practicaly up to the descretion of the DM. I personally just believe the class is horrible, and I get annoyed each and everytime I see an NPC write up with levels in it. Its as if the designers think that every person who is rich or is even remotely related to nobility *has* to have levels in the noble class. The class is horrible, it doesnt add barely anything to the person. Leave it out and say that they are nobility.
The mariner, I really don't need to go into because ferratus made very goods point above. Seriously.. just play a rogue that loves the sea.
Now to the races... from AoM. The half-kender goes the same way as half-elves... they have watered down versions of the abilities from their nonhuman part, and gain nothing else to add to it. Its just sad. There is nothing unique about them and probably see play for the same reason half-elves do... just for something different. Couldn't they have been given something to make them neat?
The Brutes.. again just a crappy race. The only thing they even get is the warpaint, and they have to pay 150 stl each time they make it. Do you really believe those brutes were spending that much money everytime they would go into battle? I guess some people could argue they do, but thats a lot of money.. so maybe they are rich. Again, this race could have used more abilities that kept them on par with elves, dwarves, etc.
Unfortunately these things just seemed to be added too quickly tot he campaign setting without actually comparing them to the other classes/races. It happened with the Kights of the Sword/Rose also. Too many things just seem too rushed and its unfortuante. At least now SP seems to be putting out little revisions in the new books they put out. But the only reason I would ever advocate a revsion of the DLCS is because while its nice to have the revisions to certain things, its annoying having to flip through several books trying to find the revisions of that class, race, etc.
An example:
Player 1: Hey I'm going to play a WoHS. So just make it up like the DLCS says?
DM: No you have to look through the ToHS book and use that version
Player 2: I'm raising to the Knight of the Rose PrC so I add the levels from the prestige class in the DLCS right?
DM: No you have to flip through the War of the Lance book and find it there. Its there somewhere.
Granted the DM knows what books is the stuff referenced, but wouldnt it be nice to have all these "revisions" in a book that players could just go out and buy and not have to have a million books to find the thing they want. I'm glad SP has started to "correct" the mistakes with some of these things, but I find it annoying to search through many different books.
An example:
Player 2: I'm raising to the Knight of the Rose PrC so I add the levels from the prestige class in the DLCS right?
DM: No you have to flip through the War of the Lance book and find it there. Its there somewhere.
In this case the DM would be dead wrong. The Knight of the Rose PrC in the War of the Lance book is a variant, it is not a revision, just like that same book (WotL) provided a non-spellcasting variant of the DMG Assassin PrC. So the above conversation should be:
Player 2: I'm raising to the Knight of the Rose PrC so I add the levels from the prestige class in the DLCS right?
DM: Yep, unless you want to try the variant Rose Knight in the War of the Lance book.
The Brutes.. again just a crappy race. The only thing they even get is the warpaint, and they have to pay 150 stl each time they make it. Do you really believe those brutes were spending that much money everytime they would go into battle? I guess some people could argue they do, but thats a lot of money.. so maybe they are rich. Again, this race could have used more abilities that kept them on par with elves, dwarves, etc.
I had that same discussion with a friend of mine. The cost for the war paint doesn’t make much sense, especially when you take into account the hundredth of thousands of Brutes that fought during the Knights of Takhisis invasion. I believe it was call the Lightning War. I never cared much for that moniker. My friend pointed out that the Knights of Takhisis fitted that bill, but I really doubt it considering the knights themselves don’t earn that much money individually, so why spend so much to accommodate auxiliary forces. And even if Lord Ariakan sprang for the bill that doesn’t account for how the Brutes paid for the war paint in their Taladan island. As barbarians they probably don’t deal in steel, and 150 stl worth of barter per warrior seems ridiculous. Just poorly thought of. Anyway, I still vote for a Revised Dragonlance book, say a Limited Edition, limited to how many SP can sell.
I had that same discussion with a friend of mine. The cost for the war paint doesn’t make much sense, especially when you take into account the hundredth of thousands of Brutes that fought during the Knights of Takhisis invasion. I believe it was call the Lightning War. I never cared much for that moniker. My friend pointed out that the Knights of Takhisis fitted that bill, but I really doubt it considering the knights themselves don’t earn that much money individually, so why spend so much to accommodate auxiliary forces. And even if Lord Ariakan sprang for the bill that doesn’t account for how the Brutes paid for the war paint in their Taladan island. As barbarians they probably don’t deal in steel, and 150 stl worth of barter per warrior seems ridiculous. Just poorly thought of. Anyway, I still vote for a Revised Dragonlance book, say a Limited Edition, limited to how many SP can sell.
Isn't the 150stl price there just for the purposes of crafting it using the Craft Skill mechanic?
Isn't the 150stl price there just for the purposes of crafting it using the Craft Skill mechanic?
Yes. And you have to pay that amount to create the war paint using the mechanic. At least I would think so. Nothing is done for free. It seems excessive for tree sap and whatever else they use for a race that doesn’t get much of anything else.
Originally posted by Ferratus
I never said the Mystic had to make the scrolls himself. He can however use the scrolls if made by someone else.
Yeah, but then don't you see that this require GP or the generosity of the DM when handing out treasure? Scrolls are no substitute for the ability to cast healing spells spontaneously.
Since mystics are the spontaneous spellcasters, I simply don't see why they couldn't cast these spells like a cleric does. Shouldn't mystics be able to harness raw positive or negative energy?
As far as the turning dead ability is concerned, IMO I do not see thqat as much of a loss except in the case of using it as a prerequisite for feats available in complete divine and book of exalted feats. If a mystic really wants Turn Undead he can take the Sun domain and he will be able to turn undead.
Yes, I agree that a mystic doesn't necessarily need the turn undead ability. He does however need a class ability to compensate for this. The Divine Metamagic and Divine Spell Power feats from Complete Divine would be a perfect substitute, or something based on them.
can do an epiphany and switch to mystic and back and forth, just as the wizard and sorceror can do.
Mystics and clerics can already do "epiphanies"
Yes IMO the mystic class does leave a little to be desired when thought of in this way, but I still believe it is a viable Player class.
I think so too. I like the fact that it only uses one domain, because that really focuses the character into a Jungian archetype of something.
Yes. And you have to pay that amount to create the war paint using the mechanic. At least I would think so. Nothing is done for free. It seems excessive for tree sap and whatever else they use for a race that doesn’t get much of anything else.
Actually your suppose to convert the price to sp and only pay one-third of that for the cost of raw materials.
*edit* my bad. the 150 is the one-third,
Is spontaneous casting really *that* neat that it shouldnt get anything else?
It makes up for the lack of a second domain, but the mystic definately needs more.
The noble is just friggin useless. Its ability is practicaly up to the descretion of the DM.
That is true. The noble was lifted out of the Star Wars Roleplaying game word for word. Now there was however a chart which explained the DC levels of various favours and the DLCS really could have used a similar one. It still requires a generous DM who doesn't set the DC's too high though. With a skill it isn't really a problem, but a class ability is more important and central to the character. Either examples, or a way to hammer it down more concretely would be nice.
Now to the races... from AoM. The half-kender goes the same way as half-elves... they have watered down versions of the abilities from their nonhuman part, and gain nothing else to add to it.
I think that's the point, for people who want to play a little bit of elf and a little bit of human. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with that, but I wish we could just get a "half-breed race" with the adjustments listed for half-ogres, half-dwarves, half-kender etc. and just get it all over with.
The Brutes.. again just a crappy race. The only thing they even get is the warpaint, and they have to pay 150 stl each time they make it. Do you really believe those brutes were spending that much money everytime they would go into battle?
Yeah, the brutes would quickly buy a suit of chain mail if this was the case. I think the best way to do it is to simply handle the cost of creating the war paint to be to simply allow the brute to collect the materials in his off-time, the same way a wizard gets spell components. Of course, this brings up the problem of selling it, but you can simply get around that by saying that sharing the secret of warpaint will get a brute killed by his fellows.
The warpaint becomes completely useless at high levels. It will only ever last 4 rounds, because you'll be taking at least 20 points of damage on your first round of being hit. That isn't really a problem though, because you still have the unbalanced ability scores (which should have a third penalty to wisdom if you want them to completely balance out). That however, makes for the lack a human feat. A minor ability might be nice to make up for the lost skill points.
Of course, you could just make a "warpaint" feat (which only doubles the mage armour spell) and make the brutes human or half-ogre.
At least now SP seems to be putting out little revisions in the new books they put out.
Yep, make no mistake, we're buying errata. ;)
But the only reason I would ever advocate a revsion of the DLCS is because while its nice to have the revisions to certain things, its annoying having to flip through several books trying to find the revisions of that class, race, etc.
Yeah, a Player's Guide. Though I'd want some new material too.
Personally, I believe the extra classes and some of the races that were added just don't make the cut. And its unfortunate.
Uh oh, SP had better hire True Blue on so that they can learn what does and does not, make the cut. Since everyone knows that True Blue is the lead authority on what should and should not be within an RPG.
If you do not like the classes, do not use them in your campaign; better yet make up your own since you seem to think you are so much more competent, than the company itself, on such things.
~~~
Quote: by Darthsylver
can do an epiphany and switch to mystic and back and forth, just as the wizard and sorceror can do.
Mystics and clerics can already do "epiphanies"
Yes, they can. I was agreeing with you that I think mystics should have the same Armor profs as clerics. I was using the ephipany rule as an example. Where a sor or wiz who goes through an epiphany and switches to the other (either wiz or sor depending on what he was to begin with), both classes have the same armor profs. As the cleric and mystic can follow this same rule I think the two classes should have the same armor profs. So I was agreeing with you ferratus.
As far as the spon cure spells I would see a Lay on Hands type ability of the paladin as being more along the lines of a mystic rather than spon cure. The spon cures (from my understanding) come from the deity that the cleric worships. Yes the cleric sacrifices a spell in order to cast a cure spell of the same level but this is because all spells (for the cleric) essentially come from the deity that is worshipped. Now I know that lay on hands is not nearly as powerful as the spon cure can be, I feel that this ability is more in line with how the mystic is portrayed.
With the turn undead again this is an ability that comes from the god that is worshipped. Perhaps if the mystic were to gain something that had to do with being a religion unto oneself I can see it. Such as becoming a magical creature in the same manner as the monk, or something like this.
In short I would like to see the mystic with a bit more abilities but I would not like to see those abilities to simply make the mystic into a variant cleric.
In short I would like to see the mystic with a bit more abilities but I would not like to see those abilities to simply make the mystic into a variant cleric.
Being able to cast her domain spells as often as she likes up to the limit of her daily spell slots is a substantial benefit over the cleric. Although the mystic can't use cure spells by default like the cleric, all of their spells are spontaneous, and easily affected by metamagic. Making spellcasting a full action isn't that big of a disadvantage.
Mystics are not supposed to be fonts of positive or negative energy. They're supposed to be aspected divine spellcasters. Giving them access to all types of armor, like a cleric, is not necessarily a bad thing - but it's possible the solution is to limit the cleric, not improve the mystic. Dragonlance clerics should probably have to spend a feat to get heavy armor proficiency, as there's no real evidence to explain their use of it in the setting. Personally, I think the cleric's powerful enough as it is.
One thing I would allow for mystics, just like I'd allow it for sorcerers, is the ability to weave spell slots together. This is a rule that Monte Cook added for Arcana Unearthed - you can weave three spell slots of a given level in order to power a spell of the next higher level, and you can unweave a spell slot of a given level to power two spells of a level one lower than the unwoven spell. This kind of flexibility, which I would make available to all sponaneous casting "wild magic" classes, further serves to differentiate them from their prepared spellcasting cousins.
Cheers,
Cam
Anyways.. I told my opinion and apparantly at least one other person agrees (ferratus), and who knows who else does. I figure I'm allowed to point out things that I don't like, in hopes that they get fixed next time around. You saying something about me complaining is like the pot calling the kettle black :D When you complain about how SP is slow and doesnt release things on time, does anyone else come back with "Uh oh SP better hire you, LoI because you think you know better and you think you can ship things on time!" Its almost as if you think you have the only right to be able to say something about something you don't like.
Personally, I'm trying to decide who has been more of a hinderance to the boards, you or Amaron. Sometimes I just dont understand someone who constantly comes on just to bash things or be negative. You actually hurt the boards, not add to it. But I'm sure you won't care :D It happens.. I guess you'll keep doing the same old negative post after negative post.. hope your life is fun as a downer =]
Ahh but enough on that..
I think Cam has the right idea on mystics needing something unique to set them apart from clerics. The weaving of spells is a neat idea from Arcana Unearthed, but we won't see something like that implemented in core D&D for awhile, probably the next edition. Whivh is sad. The Expanded Psionics Handbook started taking steps to differentiate psionics from magic, and I think its a good system. The mystic just seems too much like a watered-down cleric, not a unique class in its own right.
And for pity's sake, can we PLEASE get a printed fold-out map already? I don't care what product it ships with, or if it's offered as a solo product. Taking the web enhancement and getting it printed in sections sucks, or taking to someplace like Kinko's and getting an oversized print of the whole thing is waaaaay too costly for what your getting.
Taking into consideration things like this, it makes 2nd edition a little more favorable. More coverage on the different races, plus maps, adventures, etc. Maybe not as many supplemental books as we're getting now, but it seems like at times the older stuff just had more to it. I dunno, just an opinion. I still like and appreciate the work of Sovereign Press, but I do miss the content from yesteryear as well. *steps down from soapbox*
I think (hope) pretty soon we'll see a map in a product. As many people who have argued about not having one, you would almost think that that is high on their lists. If they did make a Player's Guide, like ferratus said, I would hope that it would be in that. The player's Guide would be a good idea because you could have any revisions done on classes/races/etc all in one handy book, errata added, and even more stuff added to it. This would make one good book and it would help the Dragonlance fans a lot. But, I do agree that most people would much rather see more supplements first, before anything else.
Well the map thing never bothered me *too* much because I printed the sections out that were on the website and tapped them together. I then gave it to my girlfriend who works in a copy center and had her laminate it. Even if my girlfriend didn't work there and I got it for free, I personally don't think its a lot of effort to print out the stuff, tape it, and then take it in there and get it laminated. I don't think it would be *that* pricey, considering the use you would get out of it. But then again, I do get most things like that free.. so maybe its different having to pay all the time for stuff.
Every so often, I take Illustrator files to Kinkos for print for inhouse seminars at the company I work for. A 17x28 color print, mounted to foamcore and laminated runs around $50 (average as the cost is typically closer to $54 unless Kinko's is having some kind of deal, in which case the cost could be as low as around $48). That's (I'm guessing) around 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the map of Krynn or less. The posters I do are mounted to foamcore which adds a little to the price, then again, the paper quality isn't all that, it's one sided, and the laminate isn't that great either (gloss or matte). And at that point, your paying more for a map than you would for most hardcover source books. In short, yes True Blue, you are getting a very good deal. And I still want a map.
I believe that SP are doing a good effort but they need to calm down a bit. I am looking through the Errata section at dragonlance.com and I say "wtf"? Calm down Sov press and take your time, there is no need to rush books apart from making more bucks.
Also like others have already mentioned, flipping through various book just to find out the most recent version of the class or "place word here" is bad. Also, some races/classes are too generic and either dump them and use the space for something else or give them something unique for Dragonlance. Did I mention not to rush books
----
In conclusion,
1. I want SOLID books with as less errors as possible. If needed ask for volunteers from across these boards, some people are doing great proof reading.
2. If "1" could be achieved then I believe that book flipping would be minimised.
3. Give us a book with a map, nothing more to say here.
4. Dump generic classes/races.
5. DO NOT RUSH BOOKS! Think (more) before you publish.
Thank you for reading
Eaglos
You bring up a very good point. Why don't publishers utilize their fan base to do proofreading? I would think WotC would have piles of volunteers. I know I'd do proofreading in exchange for a first peek at a new product. Have them sign a non-discloser agreement and free up the people at WotC to create.
Probably because they have well paid professionals doing the proof reading. People with more than just a high school diploma or GED. Aside from that WoTC already puts their fans to go use, aside from the creative team itself, who do you think does the play testing? Fans that sign those non-discloser agreements.
Now I could settle for the world map coming out with a book say the Races of Krynn, that covers ALL the races of ALL of Krynn, not just the main ones used for Player Characters on ansalon.
Personally as far as the maps go I think there should have been three out already. 1 for every major change or campaign in the setting. There should be a map for the current setting of DLCS (after the WoS), 1 during the fifth age (after the War of Chaos or at least after the Dragon overlords changed the terrain) and 1 for the 4th age (during the WoTL). This way we can see how these major events change the continent of ansalon. Of course I also feel that the DLCS map should be a world map that covers Taladas and Selasia as well as Ansalon. :D :D
Now I could settle for the world map coming out with a book say the Races of Krynn, that covers ALL the races of ALL of Krynn, not just the main ones used for Player Characters on ansalon.
Nice ideas, I wouldn't mind also having an official map of pre-cataclysm Ansalon as well. This is why I would LOVE a new Dragonlance Atlas. You could have foldout maps of Krynn, showing pre and post cataclysm. Terrain changes made by the dragon overlords, etc. You could have a player map you could provide to a group, sans markings of where towns & ruins are. And you could have a master copy of a map with locations indicated for DMs. From there, you can go into top down views of town layouts, and potentially have supplemental sections with popular stores, services, etc in different towns. Political structure, primary god worship, etc.
Maps of Taladas, details of the Minotaur Isles, and show the layout of the Dragon Isles, even if their exact location can't be determined because of the veil, I would imagine the islands and their position relative to each other would be static, so we could have maps of those areas as well. So many possibilites there...
Probably because they have well paid professionals doing the proof reading. People with more than just a high school diploma or GED. Aside from that WoTC already puts their fans to go use, aside from the creative team itself, who do you think does the play testing? Fans that sign those non-discloser agreements.
Judging from the errata threads I disagree on the "well paid professionals". Either they are a)not well paid b)not professionals c)do not have a clue. By the way diplomas and GEDs do not amaze me, the books have tons of errors
Maybe SP are not using the right fans. Whatever the case more people doing proof reading for free would never hurt anyone.Maybe SP are not using the right fans.
Okay, now this I take offense to.
The Whitestone Council has been working with Sovereign Press since day one on Dragonlance products. We have worked diligently and faithfully to do our best to make sure that errors in continuity, rules, etc. are kept to a minimum. You complain about what isn't caught, yet nobody says thanks for what we have caught. Trust me, our feedback is part of what makes these books so great.
Mistakes will happen, folks, and there's a lot more to why they happen than just having a bunch of fans proofreading materials. Wizards of the Coast has a lot more resources than Sovereign Press, yet they make mistakes all the time. Complete Divine is proof enough of this.
While I respect everyone's right to have an opinion on the quality and timeliness of products, I can't abide by the idea of "armchair game designing". It's like people sitting at home watching a football game on TV, complaining about how the coach should have done something different and wondering why he wasn't intelligent enough to make another play.
Armchair quarterbacks aren't the ones on the field. Neither are armchair game designers.
We all do our best to be as thorough as possible, but sometimes Real Life (tm), business, deadlines, late manuscripts, etc. get in the way. There is a human factor involved.
I'll give you an example. Everyone wants a map, and I agree - there should be one. The DLCS and Age of Mortals were written at the same time, and Sovereign Press thought the DLCS would have a map. Now, I don't know why the DLCS didn't have one (ask WotC), but as it turned out, it was too late to put one in AoM. The plan, then, was to put one in War of the Lance, but I believe the guy doing that one had a heart attack.
Despite these setbacks, Sovereign Press does have plans to get you guys the map you desire. I bet they get some really good talent to do it, too.
Are there mistakes in the books? Sure. But we try our best to keep them to the absolute minimum. The Whitestone Council has worked very hard to help Sovereign Press make their gaming books into quality products.
Seriously, you took the words right out of my mouth. Blaming the fanbase gets us nowhere, blaming the publisher, the writers, etc. get us nowhere. So what, mistakes were in the book. Name one mistake that RUINED your game. Some of them are annoying, but hey, that's life. Stuff like this happens every day. Every now and then, when I am reading a novel, I notice that the author used the wrong there/their/they're. People learned the difference between these in what, third grade? And yet they still pop up. And it is because the authors are human and they make mistakes. A book completely devoid of mistakes is never going to happen, EVER.
Now can we please get back to talking about Dragonlance, and stop bickering at each other?
Hell, Dragonlance 3rd Edition would not have been possible without the fan support and dedication to the setting shown by fans in the Nexus. .
Don't feel so gloomy Dragonhelm, many of us appreciate what the Nexus has done. :D
Don't feel so gloomy Dragonhelm, many of us appreciate what the Nexus has done. :D
I appreciate the sentiment, Baron.
Anyway, if we could, let's get back to topic.
I'm finding the idea of a Player's Guide a few years down the road (2006 or 2007?) to be an interesting one. My thought is that this should be released after some of the major trilogies going on now (i.e. Minotaur Wars, Dark Disciple, Rise of Solamnia/Empire). This way, the world can move forward, and the book can focus on updates.
Perhaps the key would be to be a Player's Companion. What I mean by this is that the DLCS would still be viable. The Player's Companion can collect the added base classes, revised WoHS prestige class, and new races found in other DL books, plus give us expanded geography and updated history and some new things too.
So, for example, you have your DLCS with all of Krynn's basics. Then the Player's Companion comes out, collecting the mariner, master, WoHS prestige class, half-kender, tarmak, and feats. Maybe it adds a few new prestige classes (dragon mage!), and goes on to give a modern geographical section updated for the modern time, and in the style of the WotL geographical section. History is then updated to include the events in recent books.
This way, you only have two books to carry to the game tables for the essentials of Dragonlance. There's still viable reasons for having the other books around, you don't step on WotC's toes, you get plenty of new and updated information, and everyone is happy.
Thoughts?
a players guide the way you described it seems like a great idea
I swear you need to find other contstructive things to do
contstructive ?
~~~
I did not mean to offend you. Every piece of contribution to Dragonlance is respectable and welcomed. It is just that there are lots of fans out there who are doing great proof reading and I thought that they would make a good addition.Now, perfect books do not exist but when an unofficial errata thread reaches 5 pages then something has gone terribly wrong. That's all.
------------
On topic, a new book should be out in no less 2 years from now. As mentioned earlier it should include things from various novels and possilbly even more suggestions from fans. Additionaly I would like the books to be separated according to their contect. Eg. a book concerning Krynnish geography which would include everything, a book concernig classes and races or something like that.
contstructive ?
~~~
He is referring to the third definition of the word. He just misspelled it. I would imagine anyone could read his meaning though, but if you can’t I hope this is of some help.
Constructive
Function: adjective
1 : declared such by judicial construction or interpretation
2 : of or relating to construction or creation
3 : promoting improvement or development
Anyway, where is our Palanthas reporter? I lost track of the count.
He is referring to the third definition of the word.
Contstructive is not a word, at least not one recognized by the english language; constructive is.
Also, your attempt to co-sign was weak.
Main Entry: weak
Pronunciation: 'wEk
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English weike, from Old Norse veikr; akin to Old English wIcan to yield, Greek eikein to give way, Sanskrit vijate he speeds, flees
1 : lacking strength: as a : deficient in physical vigor : FEEBLE, DEBILITATED b : not able to sustain or exert much weight, pressure, or strain c : not able to resist external force or withstand attack
2 a : mentally or intellectually deficient
You may now return to whining about revisions.
~~~
Contstructive is not a word, at least not one recognized by the english language; constructive is.
Conversate isn't a word, either, but you used it in another thread without anybody jumping on you for it. In True Blue's case, it was a typo. Quit starting fights.
Cheers,
Cam
Contstructive is not a word, at least not one recognized by the english language; constructive is.
You may now return to whining about revisions.
~~~
If you count the number of posting I have on this particular thread you’ll find that they are not that many. So I wouldn’t call it whining. Second, if you consider it whining I’ll ask you to refrain from posting on any thread I may start up. And thirdly, I’ve read whining before, and I have to say I prefer it to the inane drivel and confrontational idiocy that spews from you. I would ask you to please consider switching to another hobby but your money goes to SP and it’s as good as any. Now this is about as much energy as I’m going to waste addressing you in this thread, farewell, your dismiss!
Randal
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 12
(Baron the Curse, Darthsylver, Dragonhelm, Frostdawn, Ferratus, Iltharanos, Jonesy, Korainth, Mortepierre, Mucknuggle, Rooks, Talinthas.)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 9
(Brimstone, Daedavis, Dragontooth, Eaglos, LordofIllusions, Sysane, Valheric, Wolfenjugend, Wolf72.)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 6
(Cam Banks, Clark Valentine, Miles, Ranger REG, Silvathalus, True Blue, ).
Originally posted by Eaglos
Would I buy a revision? Definately not! Revisions do not work for me. I want NEW products!
Definitely counted as a No, eaglos would not buy a revised DLCS.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
If Sovereign Press made corrections in one of its current stable of sold-out products, I don't imagine this would be seen as a bad thing.
Unknown vote by Cam
Originally posted by Talinthas
Actually, i do want a revised AoM, if only cause i think that it should have been much more than it was.
Counted as a yes, provided the revised DLCS has these additions for Talinthas
Originally posted by Ferratus
I myself would like a revised "Player's Guide" to include the core information for Character and NPC creation in one place.
Also counted as a yes, provided the revised DLCS has these additions for Ferratus.
Originally posted by Frostdawn
Would I buy a revised DLCS? Possibly, but it would require quite a bit of incentive in the form of LOTS of new and improved content, and not just simple info updates and minor corrections.
And another counted as yes provided alot was changed for Frostdawn.
So as you can see folks there have been a few CLARIFICATIONS, a couple of FLIP-FLOPS and at least one I DON'T KNOW.
The percentages are now thus.
YES - 44%
NO - 33%
UNKNOWN - 22%
At this time we would like to thank all our devoted fans (Baron) for watching the PNN (Palanthas News Network) news coverage of the 2004 Revised DLCS debate.
This is Darthsylver for PNN reporting live, from downtown Palanthas.
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 9
(Brimstone, Daedavis, Dragontooth, Eaglos, LordofIllusions, Sysane, Valheric, Wolfenjugend, Wolf72.)
Well...I never actually said I wouldn't buy it...I just said they ticked me off.
Unfortunately, I have zero will power when it comes to Dragonlance...and I would most likely buy it. Well, really, I suppose it depends on what the revision is, I guess.
I would try my damnedest not to buy it...but I eventually caved on 3.5 and the Revised Star Wars Rule Book, too. (although I held out for at least a year on both of them)
I'm so weak...
Originally posted by Brimstone
I'm so weak...
Those who would buy the Revised DLCS: 13
(Baron the Curse, Brimstone, Darthsylver, Dragonhelm, Frostdawn, Ferratus, Iltharanos, Jonesy, Korainth, Mortepierre, Mucknuggle, Rooks, Talinthas.)
Those who would not Buy the Revised DLCS: 8
( Daedavis, Dragontooth, Eaglos, LordofIllusions, Sysane, Valheric, Wolfenjugend, Wolf72.)
Those who commented but did not declare yes or no: 6
(Cam Banks, Clark Valentine, Miles, Ranger REG, Silvathalus, True Blue, ).
The percentages are now thus.
YES - 48%
NO - 29%
UNKNOWN - 22%
As you can see for yourself, Baron the Curse has apparently put this baby to bed. Nearly half the voters have declared they would buy a revised DLCS (THIS DOES NOT NECESARILY MEAN THAT A REVISED DLCS WILL BE MADE) should one ever be made.
Please note that these are not the official results of teh 2004 Revised DLCS debate. These are just the exit polls that this reporter has been able to tally.
As always bringing it to you live, from Palanthas, this is Darthsylver for the Palanthas News Network.
I would approach it as those who want a revised book vs. those who would rather not have one.
Unless, of course, you're trying to present numbers to Sov. Press and convince them to produce one. ;)
You know, I'd approach that poll differently. I think there's a lot of people who would rather a revised DLCS not be made, but would buy anything DL.
I would approach it as those who want a revised book vs. those who would rather not have one.
Unless, of course, you're trying to present numbers to Sov. Press and convince them to produce one. ;)
Mr. Dragonhelm’s comments should be disregarded. He is known to flip-flop on the issues and has admitted to liking other games other than Dragonlance (Spelljamer), a sentiment this loyal fan cannot understand. This election is over sir, accept the poll, the people have spoken, now it is up SP to listen... :D
I would approach it as those who want a revised book vs. those who would rather not have one.
Well...that's definately where I stand. I don't want them to make one...but being the DL completeist that I am, I'd buy it. (I mean look...I have both the TotL and the Dragonlance Players Handbook, even though the DLPH is just reprinted information from the World Book of Ansalon in the TotL boxed set.)
Unfortunately...it is Darthsylver's question that would ultimately be asked when it came time to make a decision. "Would it sell?" not "Is it wanted?"
Although, I think both questions are equally important...especially for a small company.
This election is over sir, accept the poll, the people have spoken, now it is up SP to listen... :D
They don't have over 50% for it...which means there's no "Mandate." (if current politicians are to be believed) heh heh
They don't have over 50% for it...which means there's no "Mandate." (if current politicians are to be believed) heh heh
A plurality is good enough for me. ;)
Apparently Baron the Curse has a substantial amount stock in companies that provide income and payrolls for employees of PNN (namely the only employee, Darthsylver).
While one may think this means that Baron can essentially publish, or refuse to publish, any news that Baron considers newsworthy, I Darthsylver give you the fans my word that Baron has had no say in how this reporter brings you the news.
I have made, and will continue to make, all efforts to report the news to you in an unbiased opinion (even though I would buy a Revised DLCS) and can assure you that nobody who works for the PNN has allowed Baron the Curse to unfairly influence the reports or exit polls in any way.
This news network has taken all possible steps to avoid the fiasco of the 1992 Revised ToTL debate. ;)
As far as to the comments made by Mr. Brimstone
"Would it sell?" not "Is it wanted?"
Based on the exit polls, this questions seems to have been answered with a resounding yes, a Revised DLCS would sell. While many fans may feel that a Revised DLCS is not needed at this time, they have also stated that should said product be published, they would purchase it. This is the heart of the debate and is the original question for this debate.
This is Darthsylver for PNN, coming to you live from the 2004 Revised DLCS Debate, in Palanthas.