Consider this: Strahd has been dealing with Gundarite rebels for some time now......maybe some of them have been running back and forth across the border to Invidia. Using black market Vistani potions, possibly brewed by Gabriel Aderre. And just when Strahd think he's safe from Azalin there are runors of his return, and then he finds that abandoned bookstore in Valaki where it seems someone was spying for the Kargat. Plus he wakes up from hybernation and finds that he can't find his expected Tatyana incarnation......things are quickly getting out of hand for the count.
No where does it say that the Sheriff is after the Vistani....just those who have their "Get out of Barovia Free" potion. With all the trade caravans through Barovia after the GC, there may have been quite a few potions in circulation that could have made there way into undesirable hands. The Vistani are Strahd's spies, but not his servants....they don't necessarily do what he wants all the time. I'm sure that the sheriff would never hurt them though.....just those who might have their potions.
The way you'd use the Sheriff doesn't go against all that was written before the way CoD does.
The only good use I found of the Sheriff is to send the PCs in my game to slaughter him. And they slaughtered him good!
The only good use I found of the Sheriff is to send the PCs in my game to slaughter him. And they slaughtered him good!
Then the Sheriff was of use to you, yes?
Point, author.
ALL villains in Ravenloft should be designed that a whole campaign could revolve around them. Just look at Azalin, he's not the typical lich that waits at the level's end like in Castelvania. You, as a DM, want to use Azalin again. The SHeriff is high level canon fooder. And he wasn't that tough cause my PCs finished him off so easily.
The Sheriff didn't fit in Barovia plain and simple. Like, Joël I believe, said at the Fraternity, he could (with the Gargoyles) have fitted in Falkovnia but not at all in Barovia. It goes against everything that was written before. Slaughter a whole village to make an army of Lebendtod? Strahd wouldn't allow it. He'd be the first to want the Sheriff dead.
Sorry that's how I feel. ANd though I have used him, it's because I hated him so much and wanted an error symbolically (spelling on that?) fixed
ALL villains in Ravenloft should be designed that a whole campaign could revolve around them.
In the standard Ravenloft approach, yes. I will agree.
The Sheriff didn't fit in Barovia plain and simple. Like, Joël I believe, said at the Fraternity, he could (with the Gargoyles) have fitted in Falkovnia but not at all in Barovia. It goes against everything that was written before. Slaughter a whole village to make an army of Lebendtod? Strahd wouldn't allow it. He'd be the first to want the Sheriff dead.
Perhaps old Strahd changed his view(s) on his prison. I mean, after you've been trapped for so long, and all of your attempts to break free over the centuries have failed miserably, wouldn't you change your entire approach, your outlook on life? Your current, constant, predicament?
Being true to Strahd's character (a vampire) is allowing him personal growth/change as he ages over the centuries.
To do any less is to two dimensionalize.
That and peasants, being mere mortals, are replaceable/expendable when you're immortal. Chess pieces to be placed, moves to be defeated. Ho-hum. Yawn.
It wouldn't make sense if Strahd didn't allow such things to happen.
Strahd's view of the people of Barovia, his people, is not one of "Touch my people and I will skin you alive." Rather its one similar to "If anybody is going to punish my people, it's going to be me. Disrespect that, and I will skin you alive." "Me" being either him or his will. His will being the Sheriff, or any other appointed minion.
Sorry that's how I feel. ANd though I have used him, it's because I hated him so much and wanted an error symbolically (spelling on that?) fixed
But the Sheriff was of use to you, yes?
Point, author.
In the standard Ravenloft approach, yes. I will agree.
I assume by that you want a new approach to Ravenloft. WOuld you care to elaborate?
Perhaps old Strahd changed his view(s) on his prison. I mean, after you've been trapped for so long, and all of your attempts to break free over the centuries have failed miserably, wouldn't you change your entire approach, your outlook on life? Your current, constant, predicament?
Being true to Strahd's character (a vampire) is allowing him personal growth/change as he ages over the centuries.
To do any less is to two dimensionalize.
That and peasants, being mere mortals, are replaceable/expendable when you're immortal. Chess pieces to be placed, moves to be defeated. Ho-hum. Yawn.
It wouldn't make sense if Strahd didn't allow such things to happen.
Strahd's view of the people of Barovia, his people, is not one of "Touch my people and I will skin you alive." Rather its one similar to "If anybody is going to punish my people, it's going to be me. Disrespect that, and I will skin you alive." "Me" being either him or his will. His will being the Sheriff, or any other appointed minion.
Problem is that it goes in contradiction to another published book. The way the Sheriff is describe doesn't make sense with canon Ravenloft and even less with the Gaz which was in continuation with what was written before. It's clear there was no communication between the two.
I know some might say: "Why should the Gaz have authority?" Well I say because the Gaz doesn't go against all that was previously written without explaining it.
I'm rereading the SHeriff entry as I write. He's described as "lengendary in cruelty" and slaughtering whole village. Now, to make this plausible, it should be written at least why Strahd, after 350 years decided of protecting his property or simply making examples out of the burgomeister or rebel, that a whole village full of blood should be slaughtered. Ok, as a vampire Strahd can change but the least one can do (when trying to provide and alternative to standard Ravenloft as expressed in the Gaz) is to write how Strahd came to the conclusion that allowing the slaughter of an whole village is a good thing. It's out of the blue. ALso an army in Barovia?????
But the Sheriff was of use to you, yes?
Point, author.
I used a set of stats. I can do these easily and I shouldn't have to open a book to have such stats. The Sheriff has no background, he's just shallow stats. Even Vlad Drakov who's just a big idiot barbarian has a background.
Strahd views the people of Barovia as his personal possessions. He would never allow an underling to engage in wholesale slaughter, unless it suits his purposes.
Unless it suits his purposes.
Fill in the blanks, and you can justify.
Turning a village into Lebentod is not his style, it's Meredoth's style. And when Strahd starts aping Meredoth...
I don't get this.
That's like saying because X killed a prostitute with a knife, X is aping Jack the Ripper. Jack the Ripper is Jack the Ripper, not because he slashed a few prostitutes, but because his identity was never revealed to the public. No doubt prostitutes have been on the receiving end of grisly crimes since man first felt the need to barter for sex. Jack the Ripper was just sensationalized. He's wasn't immortalized because of the crime(s) he's committed, he was immortalized because of society's inability to punish him.
We can't fairly attach singular action or thought as some sort of personalized, or, exclusive signature. Otherwise, everybody and everything is a copycat...which leads to irrelevant rambling that I will not initiate here.
However, when considering Strahd's ego, maybe you make a solid point as well.
I assume by that you want a new approach to Ravenloft. WOuld you care to elaborate?
Sure.
Three versions come to mind, along with their combinations. I'll not get into the combinations for obvious reasons.
1. "Standard Ravenloft". This is playing Ravenloft as the products (authors)dictate. It's linear in origin, elaborated through intention. Nothing wrong with it, either. It's what the majority of players play, or, seem to play according to my time on various message boards. In other words, this is Ravenloft as intended.
2. "Sub-standard Ravenloft". This version of Ravenloft is what my group has always played, and dubbed "dummy Ravenloft". Darklords are never actually roleplayed, and the PCs never confront them. It's the darklords' schemes, their minions, and the nature of the world that they have to worry about. Mistways do not exist, borders cannot be closed. To us, there is too much information/explanation released in and through the products. In other words, this version is base Ravenloft.
3. "Epic Ravenloft". Unlike standard Ravenloft, epic Ravenloft is the version where in one campaign the PCs will combat every darklord in existance. Or, every darklord that they manage to bloodhound. They are the 180 of evil, and they are proud of that fact. Epic Ravenloft, epic level characters. I don't think I need to explain this more.
When I said "In the standard Ravenloft approach, yes. I will agree.", I meant to your "ALL villains in Ravenloft should be designed that a whole campaign could revolve around them." that there is no absolute way to roleplay a Ravenloft villain. Your statement came off to me as an end-all statement, and I just wanted to throw out the fact that that's not necessarily true.
That, and the Sheriff wasn't presented to be of darklord status.
Problem is that it goes in contradiction to another published book. The way the Sheriff is describe doesn't make sense with canon Ravenloft and even less with the Gaz which was in continuation with what was written before. It's clear there was no communication between the two.
I know some might say: "Why should the Gaz have authority?" Well I say because the Gaz doesn't go against all that was previously written without explaining it.
I'm rereading the SHeriff entry as I write. He's described as "lengendary in cruelty" and slaughtering whole village. Now, to make this plausible, it should be written at least why Strahd, after 350 years decided of protecting his property or simply making examples out of the burgomeister or rebel, that a whole village full of blood should be slaughtered. Ok, as a vampire Strahd can change but the least one can do (when trying to provide and alternative to standard Ravenloft as expressed in the Gaz) is to write how Strahd came to the conclusion that allowing the slaughter of an whole village is a good thing. It's out of the blue. ALso an army in Barovia?????
You bring up some pretty solid points. One might say you, and those who share your views, caught the developers dropping the ball.
And I'm there with you.
But the point I was trying to make is that despite the flaws of this character, you still manage to salvage an idea out of him. Abuse is still use. And when you use an idea, then the author of that idea (the catalyst for your creativity) has done his or her job. They earned their pay.
And that's why the point goes to the author.
Perhaps Strahd's biggest motivator for change though, is the fact that his Tatyana seems to be missing......up untill now, things have gone like clockwork. But now she is nowhere to be found. Perhaps Strahd has seen fit to turn over his "administrative" duties to an underling while he searches for the missing "love of his un-life"
As long as Strahd has a contingency plan or two in the works, in the form of damage control and termination of experiment, anyway.
Which he should, given that he's Strahd.
Perhaps these plans consist of hiring adventurers; PCs to deal with this "vile and despicable uprising". Very effective in that he doesn't have to stop his search for Tatyana, and very Count-like, both in appearance to Barovians, and in solidifying his rule. He'll be sending a rather pointed message against such insurrections. Perhaps he'll even make a high-ranking Gundarakite the scapegoat.
Just have Strahd grant the PCs some sort of retainer status, evidence that they are indeed working for the Von Zarovich "family", and when the job is done, have them hunted by the Sheriff and his lackeys. Run out of Barovia, never to return in the least. Something about them carrying the "taint" of the undead...which, by then, should be associated with the Gundarakite rebels.
Assuming, of course, that the PCs survive their pest control assignment.
Thoughts?
P.S.: Where is it mentioned that the Sheriff was raising an army of Lebendtod? I don't have the books in front of me, and I don't recall having read that. I remember reading the Sheriff was raising an army, but not consisting of Lebandtod.
Either way, it's a good, workable idea.
How would it be perceived by Barovians if it is adventurers that rid their land of evil, and not the Sheriff and those under his charge?
How would the Count justify hiring outside help? What sort of believable lie could he concoct? Old friends of the family who turned out to be no longer faithful to Barovia due to their upbringing in the outside world?
I think it is Strahd-like to drive adventurers from his realm (if he can't outright kill them/capture them), to play them in such a role, but would that set into motion a possible backlash to his schemes?
Strahd wouldn't allow that into his plans.
Would it be feasible to have Strahd send the successful adventurers on a wild goose chase outside of Barovia? A mission of "utmost importance", but in reality futile? Rigged so that they never, or, rarely return...
What could such a mission be?
Too many thoughts now.
Would it be feasible to have Strahd send the successful adventurers on a wild goose chase outside of Barovia? A mission of "utmost importance", but in reality futile? Rigged so that they never, or, rarely return...
What could such a mission be?
One thing comes to mind as of this moment.
Borrowing the idea behind that which was originally sewn with the Sheriff and his order, just toning it down and limiting it to player characters, maybe Strahd "hires" the PCs to be his spies and sends them to Darkon.
His thoughts being that if the Kargatane happen to find out the "true" purposes behind the PCs actions, then they will off the spies as they see fit. Horribly, as we can all imagine. If this happens, then so be it. Strahd's potential headache is gone.
But, on the flipside, if the PCs develop into solid spies and start reporting back to Strahd some rather juicy bits of information, then he has some well-placed spies. Bonus.
Armed with this information, Strahd sends the spies back out to Darkon, and we have ourselves quite the scheme: Strahd gaining knowledge of Azalin and his schemes, with the worst-case scenario being the PCs demise...his original intention.
Talk about the best alternative to a negotiated agreement...!
Obviously, the PCs will believe Strahd to be a benevolent benefactor and Azalin and the Kargatane the enemy of the state.
Thoughts?
I'd like to add one more idea, if I could. It's not impossible that Count Strahd would allow an underling to annihilate an entire village; just improbable and in need of an explanation. How about this:
1.) After the Grand Conjunction, Strahd--like Hazlik, Azalin, and a bunch of other Darklords--realized it was time for a change. One of the things he decided to implement was the Order of the Ebon Gargoyles. Sheriff von Zarovich was to lead them.
2.) A colossal doppelganger plant began to grow and make an army out of a small town in the Barovian countryside. Strahd finds out about it too late, and there is only one choice to be made. At the same time, he needs a way to promote his new secret force, and announce to the world that there's a new sheriff in town. He sends the Ebon Gargoyles, with their leader at the fore, to destroy the doppelganger plant and kill all the spawn. The only word that spreads is that this town was destroyed as an example. An example to whom? For what? Well, the Barovian peasantry has one idea, and everyone else has their own. One thing is for sure, everyone now knows that Count Strahd is willing to do anything to ensure his reign is absolute.
3.) An unholy shrine was later found in the forest near another village. In it lurks some imprisoned demon, and Strahd--still leery from his battle with Inajira, as catalogued by Zartin the Red--does not want the thing to be freed. He needs to ensure two things: First, that any stirring within that shrine is quickly reported. And second, that the nearby village is never used against him by some conniving, domineering demon. So, he has the village turned into undead Lebdentod, minions of unswerving loyalty to him, who will not fail him as living mortals might.
Now the argument has been made that the books should have explained that and not left it for the reader to rationalize. In my opinion, statements like these are adventure seeds waiting to be explored and explained. And, adventure seeds are what most people say they want out of one of these supplements. I agree whole-heartedly that this book and its companion volume were poorly executed and the result of poor communication, but I also believe that a silver lining can be found in this cloud.
What do you think?
So far so good.
Barovia isn't that a big place and Strahd seems to go to some lengths to keep it a backwater. Unlike (say) Azalin, Strahd's agenda doesn't require grandiose surroundings as opposed to requiring control over his realm so he can micromange the next meeting with Tatyana. For example we know from other sources that Strahd destroys his "brides" after a few years so they can never challenge his power. Under these opperating parameters having a bunch of NPCs who can only be checked by you personally (if your Strahd) becomes a liability rather than an advantage. The point where you have a village surrounded in mists to crank out mages that can teleport (or at least dimension door) is ***WAY*** past that point.
So far not so good.
The final nail in the coffin for me is that there just isn't any really good background bits to justify either why Strahd would take this guys and his band on, or why they would want to sign on with Strahd to begin with. Has Strahd scultped them from birth, with them seeing him as a nice old man? Are they just depraved (and if so why does Strahd put up with them)? Sadly the Sheriff (who I've never used) isn't the only thing to Spring out of the same mold from the new controllers of S&S.
I appreciate the efforts of the Dark Duo to provide usueful plot hooks and dread possibilities but my conclusion in reading their material so far is that they either "don't get" the setting, do not have enough faith in gothic roots (where everything is driven by the sins of the past) that they feel they need to put more hack-n-slash into the setting, or that they just have a different conception of how the setting should work than I do.
The Sheriff is the most visable tip of an iceberg I tend to find disturbing.
-Eric Gorman
Borrowing the idea behind that which was originally sewn with the Sheriff and his order, just toning it down and limiting it to player characters, maybe Strahd "hires" the PCs to be his spies and sends them to Darkon.
His thoughts being that if the Kargatane happen to find out the "true" purposes behind the PCs actions, then they will off the spies as they see fit. Horribly, as we can all imagine. If this happens, then so be it. Strahd's potential headache is gone.
But, on the flipside, if the PCs develop into solid spies and start reporting back to Strahd some rather juicy bits of information, then he has some well-placed spies. Bonus.
Were I Strahd, almost certainly aware of Azalin / Darkon's mind-reading / altering properties, I would be wary about sending powerful spies into Darkon for fear that they would be turned and either used to feed false information to him or to act as double agents.
There is some downside for Strahd, therefore, the risk that he can't trust any information that he receives and that the PCs become the pawn of Azalin - and possibly strengthened and supported by him.
Barovia isn't that a big place and Strahd seems to go to some lengths to keep it a backwater. Unlike (say) Azalin, Strahd's agenda doesn't require grandiose surroundings as opposed to requiring control over his realm so he can micromange the next meeting with Tatyana. For example we know from other sources that Strahd destroys his "brides" after a few years so they can never challenge his power. Under these opperating parameters having a bunch of NPCs who can only be checked by you personally (if your Strahd) becomes a liability rather than an advantage. The point where you have a village surrounded in mists to crank out mages that can teleport (or at least dimension door) is ***WAY*** past that point.
I couldn't agree more on the silliness of the "testing parameters" of the Order itself. In a setting where magic is rare and mysterious, or at the very least not growing on trees, a village like the one described to test wizards is just out of place. Or, I should say, I feel that it is out of place, and I've gotten the impression that a bunch of other folks would agree.
The sheriff himself, though, doesn't seem so out-of-place, and he might actually fit into some of the criteria you mentioned above. Maybe the reason no one knows anything about him is because he's not the same man he originally was. Maybe the man in that all-covering armor changes everytime he makes a decision Strahd doesn't like, or every time he becomes just a little too powerful. Maybe the "sheriff" is just the next highest ranking officer from the Ebon Gargoyles, replaced as frequently as Darth Vader replaces imperial officers in Empire Strikes Back.
But, no matter how hard I look for that silver lining, the village where prospective wizards remain "unable to leave unless they master the teleport spell and remove themselves from town without traveling through the fog" doesn't mesh with much that's come before in Ravenloft. And that's where I very much side with folks saying the book--and this idea in particular--is flawed.
There is some downside for Strahd, therefore, the risk that he can't trust any information that he receives and that the PCs become the pawn of Azalin - and possibly strengthened and supported by him.
That's a calculated risk, and one who's potential damage can be limited by lack of infomation, or, false information itself.
Not to mention a look into the eyes of Strahd...
Strahd (or his parlaying servant) could even establish with the characters that the less information they have, the better for their line of work. Safety net for Darkonian's "wicked ability for turning the greatest of minds".
We've been involved in Ravenloft for over 10 years. Nicky wrote half of the monsters in the Monstrous Compendium dedicated to that setting plus she authored Guide to Transylvania for the original Masque of the Red Death. I've played Ravenloft for many years as well as the Living Death tournaments.
We do understand the gothic setting, but we also understand that not everyone plays Ravenloft the same way. Some want old-fashioned ghost stories; some want the anguish of characters who eventually succumb to the darkness; others want to go out and kill things. All these are valid forms of playing Ravenloft and we try to expand the game so that more people can play it.
We're sorry if we don't meet your expectations. We try to.
Sincerely,
Jackie & Nicky
We do understand the gothic setting, but we also understand that not everyone plays Ravenloft the same way. Some want old-fashioned ghost stories; some want the anguish of characters who eventually succumb to the darkness; others want to go out and kill things. All these are valid forms of playing Ravenloft and we try to expand the game so that more people can play it.
And that's what I like about this new "version" of Ravenloft: it's got (more) range.
With the older setting, it had an almost "keep up or drown" vibe to it that I'm almost sure was a big factor in keeping the setting almost esoteric; away from gamers of other settings. Away from consumers; away from sales.
And if you're a true fan, then deep down you'd appreciate this "exploration" of sorts. Your Ravenloft is still in there, maybe a little hidden in between the lines, but it's there. And now, with these slight changes, so is a lot of other people's. And that means Ravenloft will continue (for a while longer)...a good thing.
That, and it's about time that somebody else sees the fact that Ravenloft, as much as the authors of old have tried to make it and sell it in the past, just wasn't all that gothic to begin with. The fact that there can be more to Ravenloft than just re-hashed literature of old. There are occasional gothic themes present, yes, and there is always room for a gothic campaign, but it's not gothic in the way it's talked about, anyway.
Being derived, originally, from gothic literature doesn't neccessarily equate being gothic in nature...something that a lot of people don't seem able to see.
Then again, maybe I'm just that much detached from the core gaming group...?
It always did have a fantasy element attached ("fantasy horror" I believe the books are now labeled), so who's kidding who? Good to see that toned down, cleared up...to whatever little degree it has. And it only makes sense to "exploit" that fact.
We're sorry if we don't meet your expectations. We try to.
[reiteration of previous post]
Don't be sorry.
For me personally, all I expect from you people (those in your position) is to help get my creative juices flowing, and in that light, you and those others behind the line have done your jobs, like I mentioned before.
Just read the basis of my posts above. Those ideas all came from a single entry, one entry in one book. And flawed or not, whether I even use the ideas above, it's irrelevant. It got me thinking (within the setting).
And, correct me if I'm wrong, is that not the point?
[/reiteration]
Don't let the cling-ons get to you...they have obviously made the neccessary adjustments to keep the particular flavor of their campaigns intact, as have we all.
It's what players of this game do.
Now if only they would realize that, instead of scream "heretic" every chance that they get.
And, speaking of which, maybe the Dark Duo should do a version of Tepest and write it out here on these boards. I can imagine you two have personal experiences that would be a natural, relatable fit.
:D
P.S.: For those who don't know, Tepest is a land driven by those who can only be described as the Inquisition of real history. An ever-increasing amount of neurotic natives who zealously hunt down anybody and everything that isn't "normal"...just like the real wave that shook Europe not a scant few centuries ago...
When I first read the sheriff's discription, I knew he was an attempt to appeal to a certain types of gamer.
Since we have your attention though, I would like to mention a couple complaints I have...........number one: not enough products per year! Number two: Need a good map! Number three: need web enhancements for some of your great products.......especially all of the cut material from the last Gazateer. The Gazateers are great, but Nove Vaasa is still a boring domain, because there's nothing "spooky" there! It's one of the biggest domains, but it is just full of plains cats and poverty. There's nothing to do there. I understand the lack of modules for profit reasons, but PLEASE do your best to squeeze ideas into your products. You've got some great writers, and if there are business reasons for cutting number of pages in a product we understand, but since your staff has done the work anyway, please let us see it!
("fantasy horror" I believe the books are now labeled),
I just took a look at the core rulebooks, and I found out that I am wrong with saying the above.
It is still being sold as "a world of gothic adventure", and "a gothic setting of high adventure".
I'm wondering now where it was that I read on the spine of a book the label "fantasy horror".
I just took a look at the core rulebooks, and I found out that I am wrong with saying the above.
It is still being sold as "a world of gothic adventure", and "a gothic setting of high adventure".
I'm wondering now where it was that I read on the spine of a book the label "fantasy horror". Was it even a Ravenloft product?
...
I think you guys are doing a great job of giving my favorite game system a second chance at unlife. You are right, there are many different types of Ravenloft gamers. If fact, the first time I played through the original Ravenloft module, the DM added his own lackey for Strahd.......an Anti-paladin who greatly resembled the "Sheriff" as we know him today.
When I first read the sheriff's discription, I knew he was an attempt to appeal to a certain types of gamer.
Since we have your attention though, I would like to mention a couple complaints I have...........number one: not enough products per year! Number two: Need a good map! Number three: need web enhancements for some of your great products.......especially all of the cut material from the last Gazateer. The Gazateers are great, but Nove Vaasa is still a boring domain, because there's nothing "spooky" there! It's one of the biggest domains, but it is just full of plains cats and poverty. There's nothing to do there. I understand the lack of modules for profit reasons, but PLEASE do your best to squeeze ideas into your products. You've got some great writers, and if there are business reasons for cutting number of pages in a product we understand, but since your staff has done the work anyway, please let us see it!
1. We'd love to do more products, but marketing says no. They don't want to glut the market with more gaming products than people will buy -- and they have to worry not only about Ravenloft but about the other S&S game lines.
2. I agree, but maps take a long time to produce and are very very expensive and, unless they're included as part of a product, they don't sell well.
3. We do our best to include ideas for games in our products, either through Dread Possibilities, story hooks or through interesting monsters and NPCs. Sometimes, however, we just plain miss the boat or are limited by space constraints. We're hoping to get some web enhancements together in the future. Please be patient.
J&N, the Dark Duo
1 We're hoping to get some web enhancements together in the future. Please be patient.
Yes!!!!!!
I'd settle for some downloadable maps.....might be cheaper to produce.
And thanks for the quick reply....
I have to say while I'm not a big fan of the Sherriff or the Ebon Gargoyles as written, I have yet to find anything in a RL product that was completely useless to me in some way. With a little tweaking and rewrites of background and some stats, most everything can be salvaged.
Anyway, in reference to the Sherriff's slaughter of an entire village and the raising of lebentod; Perhaps the slaughter occurred _before_ he was an agent of Strahd. Picture this-
A ruthless warrior and his band are transported by the Mists into Barovia. Wishing to obtain a base from which to begin obtaining power, this dark warrior and his band descend upon a small village and begin to take it over, killing any who look at them crosseyed. By the time Strahd recieves word from one of his spies, most of the village is dead. Strahd descends upon the village and raises the corpses of the dead villagers to destroy these upstart raiders. While most of the raiders are killed, their leader seems to have an unusual degree of power over the undead (perhaps due to a powerful artifact or unusual power,) and none of the shambling mob can assault him. Strahd steps in to subdue the warrior, and after a brutal confrontation, he succeeds. Intrigued by the Warriors powerful resistance and battle prowess, Strahd whisks him and a few of the other surviving members of the bandit group to Castle Ravenloft.
All of the raiders perish in Strahds torture chambers, save for their leader. The warrior stubbornly refuses to break under torture. He endures the ministrations of Strahd's cruelty longer than the vampire could have thought possible. In short, he manages to do the unthinkable, he impresses Strahd.
While all of this is going on, Strahd's other attentions begin to nettle him, and he begins to think perhaps he should have a hand to deal with those matters he considers annoyances, while he pursues his more pressing desires.
When Strahd next visits the warrior, he offers him a choice, to rot in the dungeons till old age takes him, or to serve the Master of Castle Ravenloft as a commander of an elite group of souls that will impose the will of Strahd across the land.
The dark warrior makes his choice, and becomes Sherriff von Zarovich.
Or something like that anyway.
As to the Ebon Gargoyles, I consider them to be Strahd's elite. Each is utilized to their strengths. Rogues are used as scouts and spies, Warriors are used as commanders of Barovia's militia, and wizards are charged with special duties such as finding useful magics or artifacts, and bolstering the strength of Barovia's defenders. Now priests are the only ones I can't really see as members of Strahd's forces, as in most every other Barovian reference source, it is said that the feeling prevailent in Barovia is that the Gods have turned their backs, and abandoned Barovia.
Initiation into the Ebon Gargoyles is simply this: Fulfill a task in Castle Ravenloft within three nights; alone, and with all of the denizens within (save Strahd,) aligned to stop you.
And if this book does represent an alternative view of the setting, I doubt the setting will fare well with that new view. That's my humble opinion.
And point to the author for bringing the most useless book of the setting.
I never acknowledge the existence of Sherrif, instead I have the Ebon Gargoyles as a small group under Strahd's direct control, but given some freedom in making their own decisions. Their sole purpose is to stop the Kargat from infiltrating Barovia and in turn infiltrate Darkon and act like the Kargat would abroad. A few members are diplomats the operate abroad to forward political ties and alliances, possible trade agreements and so on. For spies in other domains I use the vistani, they operate under Strahd in return for his protection, him and Madame Eva have held an alliance for centuries and see no need to alter it.
I have Darklords appear in my games, they operate directly as well as using underlings, I have also made some changes to canon. As an example, Malocchio Aderre has made a few attempts to reclaim Hunadora (noe of my campaigns was an entire seige on the castle), Gabby got pregnant later and her child has been revealled as Matton's. To protect her daughter, she is being raised in Kartakass by wolfweres loyal to Matton. Gabby hates her daughter for being what she is, but sees her as a powerful tool in years to come against Malocchio. Of course, they will rebound on her due to her curse.
Not all of the Ravenloft books have been equally popular and some of them are popular with one set of players but not another. People who are primarily involved with the world's history and with some of the original characters prefer the Gazetteers and the Van Richten's Guides. People who enjoy expanding character possibilities and exploring different aspects of the world find a lot of use in both Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light.
We've seen examples of both on this board -- there are posters who have found the books useful, those who have no use whatsoever for either book and those who take the book as a springboard and use elements of it (with or without changes) to enrich their campaign.
Once you buy a book, it is yours to accept in toto or in part and to do with what you will. Change what's in it, ignore parts of it, or treat it as gospel. There is no Ravenloft police to make you use the material in your campaign!
Just enjoy.
J&N
And that's what I like about this new "version" of Ravenloft: it's got (more) range.
And if you're a true fan, then deep down you'd appreciate this "exploration" of sorts. Your Ravenloft is still in there, maybe a little hidden in between the lines, but it's there. And now, with these slight changes, so is a lot of other people's. And that means Ravenloft will continue (for a while longer)...a good thing
Ravenloft has range and no one's arguing against that, for the most part.
The Sheriff would have been fine. If he existed in Falkovnia and not Barovia. A "true" fan can recognize that there's a certain feel to every domain and what's appropriate for one and not another. Ravenloft does have room for Sheriff von Zarovich-type characters. It's just that Barovia isn't the place.
P.S.: For those who don't know, Tepest is a land driven by those who can only be described as the Inquisition of real history. An ever-increasing amount of neurotic natives who zealously hunt down anybody and everything that isn't "normal"...just like the real wave that shook Europe not a scant few centuries ago...
Actually, Tepest is a land driven by those who mean well and try hard to fight against the darkness, but don't always know just what it is they're combating or what it's capable of. Although the fifth Gazetteer may have changed the feel of Tepest, the original adventures that dealt with it and its inquisition were more akin to the Crucible than anything done by Torquemada, for one. There was also a supreme reluctance on Wyan's part to be harming any potential innocents; his alignment's Good and he wasn't hunting down things that weren't normal, he was trying to combat supernatural forces beyond his comprehension.
The Sheriff would have been fine. If he existed in Falkovnia and not Barovia. A "true" fan can recognize that there's a certain feel to every domain and what's appropriate for one and not another. Ravenloft does have room for Sheriff von Zarovich-type characters. It's just that Barovia isn't the place.
Actually, Tepest is a land driven by those who mean well and try hard to fight against the darkness, but don't always know just what it is they're combating or what it's capable of. Although the fifth Gazetteer may have changed the feel of Tepest, the original adventures that dealt with it and its inquisition were more akin to the Crucible than anything done by Torquemada, for one. There was also a supreme reluctance on Wyan's part to be harming any potential innocents; his alignment's Good and he wasn't hunting down things that weren't normal, he was trying to combat supernatural forces beyond his comprehension.
Peanuts.
Jackie and Nicky's last post says it all.
And as for Tempest?
I'm sure that the gathering mob that is hounding (harrassing at times I'd say) the developers of the Ravenloft line of products doesn't mean to harm them, their positions are key for Ravenloft's continuity, but they are mob by nature. And the momentum of mobs always lies in and through emotion. Aggression. One plus one equals two, and things get out of hand. And as the saying goes: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." The true theme behind Tempest perhaps?
Supernatural beyond comprehension is the equivalence of "not normal", and I see a similarity like I said it.
And I don't care if anyone agrees.
I just had to say something because I have seen this for a while now (over the span of websites). And it's ridiculous. Childish. And I'm being the polar opposite just because no-one else will.
Mistakes are mistakes, injection of change is injection of change, agenda is agenda, and potential is potential. Ravenloft is made up of all these things...and it always has been.
But, to each their own.
People who enjoy expanding character possibilities and exploring different aspects of the world find a lot of use in both Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light.
I admit that I enjoy reading and finding use for the books in some shaoe or form, but CoD and HoL appear to have been vastly unpopular in my experience on the interent. On the Fraternity of Shadows forums the only book that appeared less popular than CoD was the RLPHB for its ridiculous new rules.
As for Tesest, I also see it as a country run by those who mean the best foir the common man, but they are blinded by their own goals. They beleive that the end defines the means. Belenus is the Celtic Sun God and has the role of banishing darkness, so this position fits them well. Like the Tepestani Inquisition, Belenus is rash and prone to mistakes in Celtic mythology and folklore. They are more than willing to lose a few (if not more) of the good folk if it means to sned someone (or thing) to their (ts) end. I wrote an article that was included in the Undead Sea Scrolls called Inquisition Trials a while back and may be of use for what approches the Tepestani Inquisition my use in finding witches and the shadow fey. All of the trials contained within are based on facts recorded from the Spanish Inquisition Trials ;)
Crimson Ghost, I was one of the first to speak out against CoD and HoL, seeing them as less tha nuseful when combining the two, but I never hounded the developers. I think the line produces fantastic work much of the time, the Gaz's, VRA, DMG and so on are proof that they are good for the setting, but a few bad eggs slipped through.
TrsicksterGod has a point of the fact that Sheriff would exist better in a land like Falkovnia, but I don't think he would work there either with Falkovnia already having characters like that among the Talons, he would just be another generic, though more powerful Talon, a commander maybe, but it would not explain why we had not already heard of him. Perhaps placing him in a newly created domain for the setting would be better.
Ravenloft has range and no one's arguing against that, for the most part.
The Sheriff would have been fine. If he existed in Falkovnia and not Barovia. A "true" fan can recognize that there's a certain feel to every domain and what's appropriate for one and not another. Ravenloft does have room for Sheriff von Zarovich-type characters. It's just that Barovia isn't the place.
Left unchanged, Barovia would be a one-trick pony, with Strahd the only game in town. Regardless of whether or not people "like" the Sheriff (in the sense of being able to use him in their games), his presence intimates another level (or two or three) of complexity in Barovia. It's not just Strahd that adventurers have to fight, it's a country in which a growing body of minions keep the peasantry in their place in the name of their master. Barovia does not exist in a vacuum. Despite the Mists that linger on the borders, there are relations between countries and these are not always friendly. That Barovia should take steps to guard itself from other lands is not unthinkable nor is it inappropriate.
While we're on the subject, what's your definition of a "true fan?" If you disagree with canon, are you not a true fan? If you create something that stretches the traditional interpretation, are you not a true fan? This might be something worth discussing. We believe that true fans are people who support Ravenloft and who have taken the game into their hearts and homes and made it their own -- whatever that entails.
Actually, Tepest is a land driven by those who mean well and try hard to fight against the darkness, but don't always know just what it is they're combating or what it's capable of. Although the fifth Gazetteer may have changed the feel of Tepest, the original adventures that dealt with it and its inquisition were more akin to the Crucible than anything done by Torquemada, for one. There was also a supreme reluctance on Wyan's part to be harming any potential innocents; his alignment's Good and he wasn't hunting down things that weren't normal, he was trying to combat supernatural forces beyond his comprehension.
Again, no realm remains static. Well-meaning people may go overboard fighting against the darkness. Today's revolutionaries are tomorrow's reactionaries. Tepest's inquisition harbors fanatics as well as more reasonable people who are genuinely interested in rooting out true evil and heresy. Others simply don't understand the difference between evil and different.
J&N
Left unchanged, Barovia would be a one-trick pony, with Strahd the only game in town. Regardless of whether or not people "like" the Sheriff (in the sense of being able to use him in their games), his presence intimates another level (or two or three) of complexity in Barovia. It's not just Strahd that adventurers have to fight, it's a country in which a growing body of minions keep the peasantry in their place in the name of their master. Barovia does not exist in a vacuum. Despite the Mists that linger on the borders, there are relations between countries and these are not always friendly. That Barovia should take steps to guard itself from other lands is not unthinkable nor is it inappropriate.
Jezra Wagner. The Baal'Verzi. Madame Eva and the Vistani. The Gundarakites. Inajira. The Society of the Black Feather. Leo Dilisnya. The Church of the Morninglord. There's plenty there besides Strahd himself.
And the stated purpose of the Order of the Ebon Gargoyles is, while still ostensibly safe-guarding Barovia, specifically devoted to routing secret agents from within the country. Agents from a country that would have to march through one of two fairly powerful nations - Falkovnia or Nova Vaasa - to ever hope to actually threaten Barovia. So they don't add a level of complexity. They only dilute the feel of Barovia by co-opting Falkovnia's schtick.
It's not just a matter of dislike. It's a matter of the Sheriff ultimately taking away from, not adding to, Barovia. But nowhere has it said that they're a bunch of Talon-wanna be thugs who are completely incapable of performing their duty (routing out the Kargat) due to the fact that they're about as subtle as a hammer to the face.
The continued, official support of the Sheriff instead of simply trying to brush it off as a mistake and move on does little to enthuse me.
And it's been mentioned in other books that Barovia does have a military working for it, as has been mentioned in particular with places like with the annexed lands from Duke Gundar.
While we're on the subject, what's your definition of a "true fan?" If you disagree with canon, are you not a true fan? If you create something that stretches the traditional interpretation, are you not a true fan? This might be something worth discussing. We believe that true fans are people who support Ravenloft and who have taken the game into their hearts and homes and made it their own -- whatever that entails.
It was, to a degree, tongue in cheek. I found Crimson Ghost's post about true fan's to be baseless. A true fan can and certainly should criticize something they're displeased about. They don't have to like the Sheriff for one moment. By that same token, they can.
If you want a definition of a true fan, though, it's one who speaks up about what they like and what they don't like, whether the setting is Ravenloft or otherwise. It shows a care for the setting. It's not the fanboy who just eats everything up that comes their way; it's the one who can discriminate, dislike some things, but still enjoy the setting on the whole.
Because, after all, if no one's willing to speak up about what they dislike, it will only be those core fans who remain. The ones who will keep buying books even as the quality diminishes and drives off the more fairweather fans. And once it's only those core fans who stick it through one bad book after another, profits will wither and die and with them, the line itself. It's a good thing, a healthy thing, to make it known loud and clear what is and isn't liked in the hopes that they'll be changed, eliminated, whatever, to keep quality at a premium. Or, if not necessarily "quality," per se, then at least what a lot of people do or don't like. And if a sizable number of people don't like something, it's a good sign that it probably should just be rid of. Or if they do like something, kept. But then, this is an old argument. I suppose we'll just have to see how things go a year or two down the line.
Again, no realm remains static. Well-meaning people may go overboard fighting against the darkness. Today's revolutionaries are tomorrow's reactionaries. Tepest's inquisition harbors fanatics as well as more reasonable people who are genuinely interested in rooting out true evil and heresy. Others simply don't understand the difference between evil and different.
J&N
And in regards to my Tepest post, it was essentially pointing out how little aware Crimson Ghost actually seemed to be about the nature of Tepest and what drives it. Or at the least, how very simplistic his definition was in regards to it.
Not to mention that the analogy between the inquisition and the numerous amount of criticism that's been directed towards Champions of Darkness, Heroes of Light and the both of you is by no means an accurate one.
But, in regards to no realms remaining static...ahh, how irritating that is to hear in regards to a campaign setting. I prefer my campaign settings, at least at first, to remain fairly set in place. Offering a number of plot hooks to run with that could possibly change things, but not actually instituting them, at least while there's still a great deal more to be detailed. Thus far, Ravenloft still has a great deal of things left fairly uncovered, even counting in things from the previous edition.
Detail the topics still left yet undetailed. Then muck about with changing things.
Oh and to Wiccy and your comment: "TrsicksterGod has a point of the fact that Sheriff would exist better in a land like Falkovnia, but I don't think he would work there either with Falkovnia already having characters like that among the Talons, he would just be another generic, though more powerful Talon, a commander maybe, but it would not explain why we had not already heard of him."
That would actually explain exactly why we hadn't heard of him: Where do you think it's more likely we would already have heard of him, in a place where you fit in or one where you stick out like a sore thumb? If he were a Talon, it would make sense that we only just learned of him now. In Barovia...not so much.
And that's, again, rather my point exactly. The Sheriff would fit in aptly with the Talons. The Ebon Gargoyles come off strongly as them. Which is to say...the Sheriff and Gargoyles are, essentially, uncreative, uninspired and are co-opting from an already established group and domain out there, diluting the feel of both Falkovnia and Barovia in the process.
Edit: Darn you HTML coding!
It was, to a degree, tongue in cheek. I found Crimson Ghost's post about true fan's to be baseless. A true fan can and certainly should criticize something they're displeased about. They don't have to like the Sheriff for one moment. By that same token, they can.
You have taken my words out of context.
"And if you're a true fan, then deep down you'd appreciate this "exploration" of sorts. Your Ravenloft is still in there, maybe a little hidden in between the lines, but it's there. And now, with these slight changes, so is a lot of other people's. And that means Ravenloft will continue (for a while longer)...a good thing."
I mentioned nothing about fans not being able to criticize or be displeased. My words contain (or were meant to contain) a bigger view.
The fact that Ravenloft is alive and kicking...in case you still don't get it.
With that said, please don't pin me scapegoat.
And in regards to my Tepest post, it was essentially pointing out how little aware Crimson Ghost actually seemed to be about the nature of Tepest and what drives it. Or at the least, how very simplistic his definition was in regards to it.
Bang-on.
Background for my then "joke".
Not to mention that the analogy between the inquisition and the numerous amount of criticism that's been directed towards Champions of Darkness, Heroes of Light and the both of you is by no means an accurate one.
Bang-on.
Background for my then "joke".
I thought the grin smiley thing would've gotten that across.
Oh well...
Yet, by focusing on them as an elite guard of 10 or 20 souls and having them stick more in the shadows they can be of use. And I like the idea of the Sheriff as Strahd’s arm in other lands. Anyone with as much experience as Strahd knows that sometimes you use power as a club and sometimes as a scalpel. The Sheriff is his proverbial big stick.
More of my thoughts on the Sheriff can be found in my short story in the Ravenloft fiction netbook available at the Fraternity of Shadows website (*plug* *plug*).
My thoughts on and Champions of Darkness are that it was poor compared to the other products released at the time. It was the first bad product after so many great ones so it looks bad by comparison. It is not nearly as bad as Requiem or Forged of Darkness.
Champions of Darkness also does the ‘unforgivable sin’ of introducing too much new information. Not always a bad thing but at a time when 75% of the setting had been unconverted to 3E and so many classic NPCs and groups were un-detailed the twin books of CoD and HoL were the absolutely perfect place to put them all. The best villains from past products or evil organizations in more detail than a Gazetteer sidebar. Instead we got Jander and a far too brief teaser on the Carnival and all the rest was new. Some nice, some fun, some useable and some more up to individual tastes. Cutting out all the iffy-material and controversial stuff and replacing it with updated classic material would have been brilliant.
It wasn’t bad, not really, it just seemed bad compared to what it could have been and in comparison to what came before.
I agree with the Duo on Tepest though. Change is good and the Inquisition-style update works well with the early-Celtic/Gaelic feel of the land. The witch trails are horrific and such a strong part of history a domain reflecting them is much needed. Even this is a change from the simple “hags land” the place was during the Black Box. The Grand Conjunction and Shadow Rift really worked to flesh out the land.
FYI: the Salem witch trials were very late burnings and far smaller in scale than most people assume. Because they were so close to recent memory and took place in the US (where most D&D players are from) it is easy to assume Tepest is Salem but I think it was designed more to be like English and Scottish country villages. The witch trials came there far earlier and really hit their stride almost 80 years before Salem. The 1692 date of Salem would put the tech level far into the Renaissance and ahead of the culture level of Tepest.
I do think that the corruption of the Inquisition is far too easy a route to go. That was what made Tepest and Wyan so interesting was because they were good people. So often the witch-finders and hunters are just assumed to be evil and made into easy villains. Having them walk the fine line between protecting and harming is far more interesting than having the Inquisition being as corrupt and merciless as the Spanish one. Comfy chairs indeed!
Jezra Wagner. The Baal'Verzi. Madame Eva and the Vistani. The Gundarakites. Inajira. The Society of the Black Feather. Leo Dilisnya. The Church of the Morninglord. There's plenty there besides Strahd himself.
And the stated purpose of the Order of the Ebon Gargoyles is, while still ostensibly safe-guarding Barovia, specifically devoted to routing secret agents from within the country. Agents from a country that would have to march through one of two fairly powerful nations - Falkovnia or Nova Vaasa - to ever hope to actually threaten Barovia.
Edit: Darn you HTML coding!
Almost every faction you mentioned is NOT allied with Strahd! Sounds to me like Strahd is in danger of being outnumbered in his own domain........plenty of reasons to change his tactics a little.
It's been said that there are many different types of Ravenloft players, and the Sheriff was an attempt to appeal to some of them.........I agree. I've seen it in this post all over the place........the kind of playes that want to send 20th level parties against Strahd and Azalin head to head, and are dismayed that the dark lords don't pack enough punch for this style of play.
Sounds to me like the Ebon Gargoyles and the Sheriff are the perfect solution to a lot of these kinds of players problems.
I didn't like many things in COD and HOL.......mostly because I thought there were too many new NPCs.....I wanted my Ravenloft to stay the same...
I play so infrequently, I still haven't managed to make it through the Grand Conjuction series yet.......
But Ravenloft is changing, and if Starhd does not learn to change with it, he might be in a lot of trouble......maybe he's learned a little from the mistakes of other DLs who couldn't keep up with the rapid changes.
Strahd's number one concern is Tatyana.....but he has other concerns too... He can not tolerate disobediance, and betrayal. He has to be in control of what is his.....at least when he's paying attention to it.
There are many reasons for Strahd to take a heavier hand in things lately.
So.....even though, I think the Sheriff is a big change and not what we are used to.........I still think he has his place.
In the end it is very simple....if he does not fir in your campain, ignore him. You don't even have to say if he exists or not....just ignore him.
But if he has a place, use him and enjoy!
We support the work of our writers, some of whom try to expand Ravenloft while others elaborate on what's already there. All of them are devoted to the game setting and the great majority of them were either involved in earlier editions of Ravenloft or are long-time contributors/supporters of the current Living Death campaign or Ravenloft tournaments.
We realize that not everyone likes everything and that we can't please all the fans everytime. We also realize that not everyone who buys Ravenloft books posts on the internet, so we also try to take into account people like the ones in our local gaming club, who enjoy high energy games with opportunities for intensive role-playing as well, but who do not spend great amounts of time on the boards.
We enjoy reading the posts here and participating in them when we can. As far as von Zarovich is concerned, we've pretty much said what we meant to say.
Take it from here and we'll keep dropping in. ;)
J&N
Don't get me wrong. The basic idea is sound but the way it was implemented struck me as dumb given the nature of RL in general and of Barovia in particular.
Witness, the fact that aspiring mages of the Order have to be "locked" in a village full of ghostly teachers. There, without any obvious access to ways to improve themselves (read: gain xp) they are supposed to rise to level 9
and learn the Teleport spell because it's both the only way out and the one way to graduate 
When I read that, I thought for a moment I was looking at something straight out of the FR (with apologies to FR fans).
Methink the Order of the Ebon Gargoyle would have been better perceived/received by the fans if it had been a little more inconspicuous and a lot less.. ah.. "powergaming".
Don't get me wrong. The basic idea is sound but the way it was implemented struck me as dumb given the nature of RL in general and of Barovia in particular.
Witness, the fact that aspiring mages of the Order have to be "locked" in a village full of ghostly teachers. There, without any obvious access to ways to improve themselves (read: gain xp) they are supposed to rise to level 9
That's EXACTLY what I think so well said!
Methink the Order of the Ebon Gargoyle would have been better perceived/received by the fans if it had been a little more inconspicuous and a lot less.. ah.. "powergaming".
Don't get me wrong. The basic idea is sound but the way it was implemented struck me as dumb given the nature of RL in general and of Barovia in particular.
Witness, the fact that aspiring mages of the Order have to be "locked" in a village full of ghostly teachers. There, without any obvious access to ways to improve themselves (read: gain xp) they are supposed to rise to level 9
As we've said before, change what you don't like.
When I read that, I thought for a moment I was looking at something straight out of the FR (with apologies to FR fans).
Let's hope the FR fans don't take umbrage at that! You may get locked up in a FR message board with an electronic village full of FR fan-teachers!
Jackie
Almost every faction you mentioned is NOT allied with Strahd!
Curious how often a response ostensibly written in disagreement supports precisely what was being responded to in the first place.
My point was precisely that Barovia is not a one trick pony and that there's plenty there besides Strahd, unlike what Jackie and Nicky say: "Left unchanged, Barovia would be a one-trick pony, with Strahd the only game in town."
FYI: the Salem witch trials were very late burnings and far smaller in scale than most people assume. Because they were so close to recent memory and took place in the US (where most D&D players are from) it is easy to assume Tepest is Salem but I think it was designed more to be like English and Scottish country villages. The witch trials came there far earlier and really hit their stride almost 80 years before Salem. The 1692 date of Salem would put the tech level far into the Renaissance and ahead of the culture level of Tepest.
Like many domains in Ravenloft, Tepest isn't really based on any specific country or culture in particular. It's a mix between witch trial-era Salem, a generic, fairy-tale Ireland, and the Brothers Grimm, taking what elements we want and discarding the rest. Had Servants of Darkness and The Shadow Rift not established a Gaelic language base for the country, I wouldn't have used it. (For one thing, it makes names like Kellee and Viktal stand out like sore thumbs.)
Really, Tepest's as much Salem as anything, and it's not much Salem. The general idea I always kept in mind for it was a setting going through an out-of-control, Salem-style witch mania -- but where satanic witches are present and plotting.
I do think that the corruption of the Inquisition is far too easy a route to go. That was what made Tepest and Wyan so interesting was because they were good people. So often the witch-finders and hunters are just assumed to be evil and made into easy villains. Having them walk the fine line between protecting and harming is far more interesting than having the Inquisition being as corrupt and merciless as the Spanish one. Comfy chairs indeed!
Yep. I've been tired of the "evil 'Black Myth' Inquisitors" stereotype for years. Like the Nevuchar Springs sect of the Church of Ezra, I wanted Wyan's inquisition to be dangerous and flawed -- but possibly, ultimately, right. Thus the emphasis on showing that Wyan's a good man, just misguided. He's made far fewer mistakes than most adventurers, I'd wager.
As a note, the original opening quote for the Tepest gazetteer -- removed after the chapter left my hands -- was the following, which puts it in context:
It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in [Satanic] witches; there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there.
--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
(Another way to phrase Lewis' point: "The modern world shouldn't pat itself on the back for no longer burning witches. We never stopped burning witches -- we just stopped believing they exist." He goes on to add, to paraphrase, "And if Satanic witches did exist, shouldn't we burn them?")
...as long as I have my files open, the first half of the Borca opening quote in Gaz IV was cut too. Here's that complete quote:
But the scanty wisdom of man, on entering into an affair which looks well at first, cannot discern the poison that is hidden in it ... Therefore, if he who rules a principality cannot recognize evils until they are upon him, he is not truly wise; and this insight is given to few.
-- Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
That would actually explain exactly why we hadn't heard of him: Where do you think it's more likely we would already have heard of him, in a place where you fit in or one where you stick out like a sore thumb?
I was more on about the fact that the Sheriff would have been mentioned in referrence to being a falkovnian commander or significant member of the Talons in past product had he been that. Past products that detail the demiplane have mentioned important characters in passing, so surely he would have been mentioned (even in passing) in such context. He may may not be known (or at least probably not be known) to the population of Falkovnia if he was there, but those who had read the books would have heard of him, even in passing, as he would be an important character in that domain
.Crimson Ghost, I was one of the first to speak out against CoD and HoL, seeing them as less tha nuseful when combining the two, but I never hounded the developers.
Not to beat a corpse (as much fun as that sometimes is :D ), but having an opinion about products is one thing, and is most certainly a consumer's right, but some people have taken it a step farther by not "attacking" the books or their contents in that same consumer sense (which most people have done in a very respectable way), but the developers "know-how" and "setting comprehension". Blindly, I should add.
They know who they are.
If they were truly concerned about the direction of Ravenloft, then all they had to do was ask. We all know how readily available the Dark Duo are for answering questions about Ravenloft.
I'll not write out some of the examples that come to my mind as I'm sure that most of you here know exactly what I'm talking about.
For the most part, these are issues made personal, stemming from a couple of entries in a product. People seem to be o.k. with the Dread Possibilites in the other products (for those who don't know, they're just that: possibilities), so, what's the problem?
Is it truly a capability/culpability issue, or is it a deeper issue involving loyalty?
I'll leave it at that as I don't want to further spoil this relatively interesting thread by regurgitating my personal beef with these few individuals. In fact, I must apologize for bringing it here in the first place. Sorry.
My group is cool with our version of Ravenloft, how about yours?
That was rhetorical... ;)
Not to beat a corpse (as much fun as that sometimes is :D ), but having an opinion about products is one thing, and is most certainly a consumer's right, but some people have taken it a step farther by not "attacking" the books or their contents in that same consumer sense (which most people have done in a very respectable way), but the developers "know-how" and "setting comprehension". Blindly, I should add.
They know who they are.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. We do, however, fully realize that by participating in this forum, we are most likely inviting criticism. So be it. People can say what they like. That they say anything shows that they care about the setting and want it to be as good as it can be.
If they were truly concerned about the direction of Ravenloft, then all they had to do was ask. We all know how readily available the Dark Duo are for answering questions about Ravenloft.
I'll not write out some of the examples that come to my mind as I'm sure that most of you here know exactly what I'm talking about.
And we hope to be able to continue to be available. We'd post on the White Wolf/S&S board as well, but we keep screwing up the sign-in process and can't get our password!
For the most part, these are issues made personal, stemming from a couple of entries in a product. People seem to be o.k. with the Dread Possibilites in the other products (for those who don't know, they're just that: possibilities), so, what's the problem?
Is it truly a capability/culpability issue, or is it a deeper issue involving loyalty?
I'll leave it at that as I don't want to further spoil this relatively interesting thread by regurgitating my personal beef with these few individuals. In fact, I must apologize for bringing it here in the first place. Sorry.
My group is cool with our version of Ravenloft, how about yours?
That was rhetorical... ;)
Don't apologize! Obviously, people have a lot of opinions on this topic. Otherwise, the thread would have died out more quickly.
For the most part, these are issues made personal, stemming from a couple of entries in a product. People seem to be o.k. with the Dread Possibilites in the other products (for those who don't know, they're just that: possibilities), so, what's the problem?
One's labeled as an option in the book; one isn't, and is retroactively declared optional -- on a message board, not in a book -- when reader response is overwhelmingly negative.
More simply: One is a setting design technique; the other is a way of shirking responsibility.
One's labeled as an option in the book; one isn't, and is retroactively declared optional -- on a message board, not in a book -- when reader response is overwhelmingly negative.
More simply: One is a setting design technique; the other is a way of shirking responsibility.
Anything and everything found in a Ravenloft product is optional. It's the nature of the game.
[end response]
And as for the Sheriff himself, somebody mentioned earlier that it would be more fitting if he originated from Falkovnia. Fair enough, let's make him Falkovnian. There he grew through the ranks, earning a nasty reputation amongst his peers, and it was there that he slaughtered hundreds of villagers as they rose up against Vlad's rule. Maybe it was the razing of Hala's followers. After a while, he made enemies with some pretty powerful folk, and was exiled out of a need for self-preservation. Eventually,
Picture this-
A ruthless warrior and his band are transported by the Mists into Barovia. Wishing to obtain a base from which to begin obtaining power, this dark warrior and his band descend upon a small village and begin to take it over, killing any who look at them crosseyed. By the time Strahd recieves word from one of his spies, most of the village is dead. Strahd descends upon the village and raises the corpses of the dead villagers to destroy these upstart raiders. While most of the raiders are killed, their leader seems to have an unusual degree of power over the undead (perhaps due to a powerful artifact or unusual power,) and none of the shambling mob can assault him. Strahd steps in to subdue the warrior, and after a brutal confrontation, he succeeds. Intrigued by the Warriors powerful resistance and battle prowess, Strahd whisks him and a few of the other surviving members of the bandit group to Castle Ravenloft.
All of the raiders perish in Strahds torture chambers, save for their leader. The warrior stubbornly refuses to break under torture. He endures the ministrations of Strahd's cruelty longer than the vampire could have thought possible. In short, he manages to do the unthinkable, he impresses Strahd.
While all of this is going on, Strahd's other attentions begin to nettle him, and he begins to think perhaps he should have a hand to deal with those matters he considers annoyances, while he pursues his more pressing desires.
When Strahd next visits the warrior, he offers him a choice, to rot in the dungeons till old age takes him, or to serve the Master of Castle Ravenloft as a commander of an elite group of souls that will impose the will of Strahd across the land.
The dark warrior makes his choice, and becomes Sherriff von Zarovich.
Or something like that anyway.
All of a sudden the Sheriff becomes useful, according to the wants of some of those that posted in this thread.
Think, and it'll fit.
Or, just stay your ground and pretend you never read the idea.
I don't really care.
I'll use the character. And I'll be around to lend thoughts to anybody who wishes to either justify or flat-out use the guy...
[post edited to eliminate a rather futile rant]
Anything and everything found in a Ravenloft product is optional. It's the nature of the game.
Ah, yes, the "quality doesn't matter" argument.
Ah, yes, the "quality doesn't matter" argument.
And a cop out answer, to boot. Everything is ultimately optional when you get right down to it. No one would argue that the DM can't discard what he durn well pleases, so trying to state that he can discard what he likes is a non-answer.
Not to mention that "optional" seems to be a word flung out whenever harsh criticism is directed at a book, as if yes, that NPC, that rule, that bit of metaplot, were specifically developed as being optional all along, as opposed to anything in the canon. It comes across as back pedaling, most of the time. While not in the Ravenloft line, I had one developer state that a book was meant as optional, as alternative, all along - despite the fact that the book directly stated its contents were considered canon.
And optional or not, those options can still be bad.
As for the various stories given about Sheriff von Zarovich, not a one has thus far tempted me to use him in the slightest. My various comments about him being appropriate for Falkovnia in no way relate to his origin; he could be a Barovian, for all I care. Any one can be a brutal twit in silly, not fully functional gargoyle plate mail, but they can't be like that just anywhere they please.
And a cop out answer, to boot. Everything is ultimately optional when you get right down to it. No one would argue that the DM can't discard what he durn well pleases, so trying to state that he can discard what he likes is a non-answer.
::sigh:: Here we go. It would seem that way, wouldn't it? But sometimes "non-answers" need to be made because not everyone feels comfortable with customizing a game. We have some gaming friends who still believe that what is written in "the rule book(s)" is carved in stone. So we say that it's "optional" so that people who don't like it don't have to feel that they have to use it. People like to be "right." The first year we attended GenCon, many many years ago, we were too shy to play in any games. We walked around an observed and took game-mastering seminars to make sure we were doing it "right."
Ultimately, we learned that, in gaming, the right way and the wrong way are very flexible. We discovered that there was such a thing as "house rules" and that most gamers were using them.
And optional or not, those options can still be bad.
Not to mention that "optional" seems to be a word flung out whenever harsh criticism is directed at a book, as if yes, that NPC, that rule, that bit of metaplot, were specifically developed as being optional all along, as opposed to anything in the canon. It comes across as back pedaling, most of the time. While not in the Ravenloft line, I had one developer state that a book was meant as optional, as alternative, all along - despite the fact that the book directly stated its contents were considered canon.
If you go against "canon," who's going to penalize you for doing so? There are no Ebon Gargoyles to swoop down on gamers for not using the Sheriff! There is no Kargat monitoring the correctness of home campaigns!
As for the various stories given about Sheriff von Zarovich, not a one has thus far tempted me to use him in the slightest. My various comments about him being appropriate for Falkovnia in no way relate to his origin; he could be a Barovian, for all I care. Any one can be a brutal twit in silly, not fully functional gargoyle plate mail, but they can't be like that just anywhere they please.
Then don't use him.
J&N
Ah, yes, the "quality doesn't matter" argument.
That's not what I said, but I'll agree.
I do think that in this medium (D&D), quality is what you make it. The products provide the clay, but we are the true sculptors.
Am I blind to my purchases? Of course not. I know exactly what I'm buying and thus supporting.
I'm buying ideas. Ideas that compliment my own. Ideas that I can smash and re-create. Ideas that I can straight-up use. Ideas that I can twist and warp.
If my radar (taste in genre) picks up on it, then I'm pretty confident that I can work with it.
The only thing is, never have I bought every product of any one given campaign setting. Just enough so that my head is in the world, then I take over from there.
But what do I know, hey?
No one would argue that the DM can't discard what he durn well pleases, so trying to state that he can discard what he likes is a non-answer.
Yes, we have no bananas.
There is no Kargat monitoring the correctness of home campaigns!
Not in the literal, Ravenloft sense... :D
::sigh:: Here we go. It would seem that way, wouldn't it? But sometimes "non-answers" need to be made because not everyone feels comfortable with customizing a game.
It's a non-answer when the complaint isn't "Argh, how dare you put this garbage in my campaign!," and instead is, "Wow. This is poorly written, makes little sense and sticks out like a sore thumb, so probably should have never been allowed in the first place."
It's a non-answer because it doesn't address the fact that there's a great deal of antipathy for Champions of Darkness. It has nothing to do with customizing a game and everything to do with criticizing an uninspired piece of writing.
And as it comes to mind, here's my general take on something being optional: Optional is something that could be descried as "What if?," whereas something that qualifies as "This is how things are. Unless you decide otherwise" isn't. Also, optional is something you can presume won't be in a campaign unless the DM specifically says otherwise, whereas anything that can be assumed to be in the campaign isn't optional (in the sense that it's pretty much a give-in that it will be there and deserves specific attention in noting if it isn't).
If you go against "canon," who's going to penalize you for doing so?
Later books, namely. I dread the day that Sheriff von Zarovich, the Ebon Gargoyles, Rarity of Magic Ratings and class weaknesses ever start creeping their way into other products, until they're as entwined into the setting as the Weathermay's, the Talons, or Fear, Horror and Madness saves.
And it still doesn't address the fact that it usually comes across as a lie when something's stated as being optional. You can call something optional or you can call something canon but you can't do both; if it appears in later books, it's canon. If it doesn't, well, great, that's all the optionality I need. And in both cases, I believe there's an initial intent for things to be one way or another.
However, I might just be venting a bit of my ire for that aforementioned other developer whom, as far as I'm concerned, was caught in a lie.
Ahh well. Rarely seems there's much point in keeping this up, anyway. Beyond perhaps an "I told you so," when a line fails and even that's not particularly satisfying, as criticism should be directed towards improving something rather then trying to torpedo it.
That's not what I said, but I'll agree.
I do think that in this medium (D&D), quality is what you make it. The products provide the clay, but we are the true sculptors.
That kind of logic works better for D&D products that aren't campaign settings. Generally, I go with campaign settings to save me on work. The more I can use from a campaign setting without needing to butcher it, the better that campaign setting is.
And as for quality, while I think marketing has a lot to do with how well things do (for example, Wizards of the Coast will almost always sell better with D&D then 3rd party companies would for simply being Wizards of the Coast), diminishing quality will, eventually, translate to fewer sales. I honestly think bad books sell fairly well if simply because so much attention is given to them at times, but by that same token, I think they hurt later sales for standing out as such a poor example of their given line. A good book, on the other hand, while it may not be a huge seller, will help sales in the long-term by setting up a precedent of quality. I don't own Heroes of Light specifically because of Champions of Darkness. I've made it a point to recommend the Gazetteers to my friends because of the first one.
Particularly in light of the competitive nature of the d20 market and the difficulty there appears to be in doing well in it, while decent marketing is important, so, too, is a standard of quality. The Ravenloft name will only do so much for selling books; it will attract the audience, but it's the book quality that keeps them.
That kind of logic works better for D&D products that aren't campaign settings.
Personally, I treat both as one and the same. Always have, too.
And as for quality, while I think marketing has a lot to do with how well things do (for example, Wizards of the Coast will almost always sell better with D&D then 3rd party companies would for simply being Wizards of the Coast), diminishing quality will, eventually, translate to fewer sales. I honestly think bad books sell fairly well if simply because so much attention is given to them at times, but by that same token, I think they hurt later sales for standing out as such a poor example of their given line. A good book, on the other hand, while it may not be a huge seller, will help sales in the long-term by setting up a precedent of quality. I don't own Heroes of Light specifically because of Champions of Darkness. I've made it a point to recommend the Gazetteers to my friends because of the first one.
Particularly in light of the competitive nature of the d20 market and the difficulty there appears to be in doing well in it, while decent marketing is important, so, too, is a standard of quality. The Ravenloft name will only do so much for selling books; it will attract the audience, but it's the book quality that keeps them.
Well said.
In fact, I have to clarify myself because of it.
Quality does indeed matter, from a professional presentation point of view, but the (linear) quality of ideas found inside the books aren't that big a deal for me. They can be Pluto remote, at times, but as long as they're within the system I'm happy. I can work with that. Every entry starts, every entry stops...
I would write out an example of an idea that is "beyond the system", but I don't think I've ever came across one to be honest.
Standard quality is standard quality, and I don't think the standard of Ravenloft has been compromised in any way, shape, or form. Quite the opposite: I think the quality has actually improved since this beast came bursting through its grave.
Well, for my liking.
And with only one or maybe two books being the source for complaint...
That kind of logic works better for D&D products that aren't campaign settings. Generally, I go with campaign settings to save me on work. The more I can use from a campaign setting without needing to butcher it, the better that campaign setting is.
There's certainly no arguing with that. Neither CoD and HoL were "campaign settings" if I'm not mistaken. They are sourcebooks from which you may plunder as you will.
And as for quality, while I think marketing has a lot to do with how well things do (for example, Wizards of the Coast will almost always sell better with D&D then 3rd party companies would for simply being Wizards of the Coast), diminishing quality will, eventually, translate to fewer sales. I honestly think bad books sell fairly well if simply because so much attention is given to them at times, but by that same token, I think they hurt later sales for standing out as such a poor example of their given line. A good book, on the other hand, while it may not be a huge seller, will help sales in the long-term by setting up a precedent of quality. I don't own Heroes of Light specifically because of Champions of Darkness. I've made it a point to recommend the Gazetteers to my friends because of the first one.
It has occurred to me, however, that both CoD & HoL were published at least two years ago! It's interesting people are STILL talking about them.
In the meantime, other books have been published that deserve attention...My position hasn't changed, however. I support our publications and our authors and editors. I have seen a lot of the writing and plotting that comes from some other sources and, believe me, we have some of the best people in the business.
Particularly in light of the competitive nature of the d20 market and the difficulty there appears to be in doing well in it, while decent marketing is important, so, too, is a standard of quality. The Ravenloft name will only do so much for selling books; it will attract the audience, but it's the book quality that keeps them.
So in your eyes, CoD is a dud. That's fine. Other people feel differently. And other people just like to make noise. What I hear is that you care passionately about the setting and everything in it. Thanks.
Jackie
The problem I see with "optionality" (Is that a true word?) is that further products will have to deal with that base. COD was not a Campaign Setting, but nevertheless it set something in the campaign.
On the other side lets look at the options:
1) Shef n' the Gargoyles are canon
Then all further products involving Barovia and its interaction with Darkon should mention them. All detractors whine with every appearance.
2) They are not canon
Then the develpers must pay attention no one mentions them. All detractors whine their only apperance. Sets precedent for uncanonizing (Now, that is not a word) everything that don't pleases the "audience". I think that would be disappointing to some authors.
3) They are canon/not-canon in a quantum-like way
Some mention them, some don't. Some believe this is fine, some give up and try Forgotten. Some really don't know what I'm talking about.
4) Remember Sir Tristen?
What we could really do is making "Shef n' the Gargoyles" viable. Sir Tristen had his story "uncanonized". Thrice. Now he has a story deeply rooted in his father's homeland history. Now Malken's domain name makes sense. Now Malken's curse makes sense. Now even I am making sense.
How about a Falkovnian "emigrant". He is commanded to create a group to counter the Kargat spies. He decides that home is too close the Kargat. He goes to the only land that has had a victory over Darkon: Barovia. (Azalin couldn't conquer it.) He takes the name Von Zarovich, protecting him from the populace. Strahd is too busy looking for Tatyana. He "conquers" (wipes) a village.
IMO, I think it could be viable.
Witness, the fact that aspiring mages of the Order have to be "locked" in a village full of ghostly teachers. There, without any obvious access to ways to improve themselves (read: gain xp) they are supposed to rise to level 9
Maybe only one can graduate an there are a lot of aspiring mages. Or maybe no one graduates and that was intended all along. (Curse that Kargat mages and all their minions, only Strahd can control magic in Barovia.)
Then the develpers must pay attention no one mentions them. All detractors whine their only apperance. Sets precedent for uncanonizing (Now, that is not a word) everything that don't pleases the "audience". I think that would be disappointing to some authors.
Speaking of which, I have an question unrelated to the Sheriff.*
As of Gazetteer IV, Ivana Boritsi's brother Sulo is the stapan of Levkarest and is portrayed as living in Marsav Hall, official seat of the Borcan government, acting as his sister's closest advisor, and, if you read between the lines, probably doing much of the nuts-and-bolts daily governance of the country's economy.
Last I heard, Legacies of Blood has him relocating to Nova Vaasa before the Grand Conjunction and possibly since moving on to Liffe.
Someone who has the book -- is that still the case?
[*A question related to the Sheriff would be, "Do they have shires in Barovia?"]
What we could really do is making "Shef n' the Gargoyles" viable.
This was always the Kargatane's preferred approach as well. Took pride in patching up a frayed tapestry.
By the end of our tenure, I think we'd managed to reincorporate, to at least some degree, everything that had been banished to "noncanon" status in 2E.What we could really do is making "Shef n' the Gargoyles" viable.
My personal approach has always been along these lines:
Three days after 'Sheriff von Zarovich' makes his ruling about the Vistani potion being illegal, one of his Ebon Gargoyles hassles a Vistani trader. By the next morning, every member of the Order is found torn apart by wolves, drained of blood, or vanished. The Sheriff has not been seen since.
Sorry, but a 15th-level NPC of Pure Evil and relentless combat focus who's given a reason to be gunning for any and all characters who want to do something with the 'one note' of Barovia . . . it just doesn't work for me, and I think they're far too obvious and disruptive. Barovia is a very iconic, flavor-oriented domain, and armies of Evil just don't click.
Still, let's go easy on the poor Sheriff. There are plenty of other things wrong with Champions of Darkness. The Highway Rider's immunity to being 'Mist-led' . . . the vagueness and overly modern tone of the Propagandist's abilities . . . the implication that the Scourge is proficient with all exotic weapons . . . the horridly overpowered Energy Drain feat . . . the slightly less horribly imbalanced Machiavellian feat . . . the redundancy of the Dirge of Woe feat with the rules for evil bards in the RCS . . . Jander Sunstar's alignment error and missing feats . . .
I'd better stop or I'll be at this all night.
Matthew L. Martin
This was always the Kargatane's preferred approach as well. Took pride in patching up a frayed tapestry.
Ah... the good ol' days.:D
I've heard a number of suggestions that the Gargoyles become a much more subtle group than how they are suggested. At least, that's how I've included them into my game.
Also, as for the Sheriff slaughtering a village, I just adjusted things so that the village was rising up against Strahd and refusing to pay their taxes. When they set up a milita to protect themselves from reprisal, the Sheriff was sent out to deal with them.
My personal approach has always been along these lines:
Three days after 'Sheriff von Zarovich' makes his ruling about the Vistani potion being illegal, one of his Ebon Gargoyles hassles a Vistani trader. By the next morning, every member of the Order is found torn apart by wolves, drained of blood, or vanished. The Sheriff has not been seen since.
But would they hassle the Vistani? The intent of the law is that it prevents Barovians from getting the potion and declares that a traitorous act. Vistani are not Barovians therefor cannot be traitors.
Any travellers would be allowed if they could prove their non-citizenship and the Vistani would automatically be exempt from the law. The only ones roughed up would be any locals caught with the potion.
This is because they can’t just make it illegal outright, Sheriff cannot legislate the actions of the Vistani and they’re under Strahd’s protection. So he cannot say “do not make this” or “do not sell to them”. The Vistani do what they want.
He can say “If I catch you locals with it I will gut you.” Then a few suspects turn up dead, no witnesses of course, and the rumours fly.
I see the Sheriff as a bogeyman, no real sightings just some legends. A horror story. But also Strahd’s minion when things need to be done beyond the borders.
The Gargoyles I picture as a small elite force of only a handful of member. Twenty or thirty at most. Most of the time they follow their own devices and schemes only working together against more powerful threats or opponents (such as PCs). They range from between L10 and 14. Think of them like a couple of evil parties united together.
But would they hassle the Vistani? The intent of the law is that it prevents Barovians from getting the potion and declares that a traitorous act. Vistani are not Barovians therefor cannot be traitors.
Any travellers would be allowed if they could prove their non-citizenship and the Vistani would automatically be exempt from the law. The only ones roughed up would be any locals caught with the potion.
This is because they can’t just make it illegal outright, Sheriff cannot legislate the actions of the Vistani and they’re under Strahd’s protection. So he cannot say “do not make this” or “do not sell to them”. The Vistani do what they want.
He can say “If I catch you locals with it I will gut you.” Then a few suspects turn up dead, no witnesses of course, and the rumours fly.
Good point. Perhaps Strahd is working on something important and cannot spare the time to go out hunting far. By locking in the villagers, if his larder should run low (possibly because of his experiments), he can just fly down to the village. Anything from extra vampires, to a need for easily collected subjects could explain this.
And, if Strahd is distracted, it would be very easy for the Sheriff to start testing his boundries. That would explain many of his atrocities, trying to enforce his version of Strahd's will. What Strahd will do when the Sheriff hits that limit is questionable, but chances are it will raise him (slightly) in the eyes of the current generation for saving them from such a beast.
The Sheriff should really be focused on the Gundarkites though. They're the ones causing Strahd real difficulty.
But would they hassle the Vistani? The intent of the law is that it prevents Barovians from getting the potion and declares that a traitorous act. Vistani are not Barovians therefor cannot be traitors.
The book says that the sheriff "has declared illegal the trade of the Vistani elixir that protects travelers from Strahd's choking fog and possession of it by a Barovian citizen an act of treason. These crimes are punishable by death, followed by undeath."--Champions of Darkness, p. 85, emphasis added. That sure makes it sound like it's a wholesale forbiddance of the potion, and all it takes is one Gargoyle getting overzealous to bring Strahd down on them like a thunderbolt. However, that all hinged on my unspoken assumption that Strahd at best tolerates the Order, rather than endorses and supports them. I should have made that clearer.
Matthew L. Martin, wondering how you get an army of priests and paladins in Barovia (see p. 84, column 2, paragraph 2).
The book says that the sheriff "has declared illegal the trade of the Vistani elixir that protects travelers from Strahd's choking fog and possession of it by a Barovian citizen an act of treason. These crimes are punishable by death, followed by undeath."--Champions of Darkness, p. 85, emphasis added. That sure makes it sound like it's a wholesale forbiddance of the potion...
That still does not affect non-Barovians. Also, does it mean a citizen of the nation of Barovia, or the village of Barovia? Its not clear in the text, but if you use my above example it can work easily.
...wondering how you get an army of priests and paladins in Barovia (see p. 84, column 2, paragraph 2).
With Van Richten's Guide to Vampires calling Strahd a vampire (The most open secret ever), combined with the oppression of the Gundarkites, I'm surprised it took this long to build an army to fight him. Notice a few things, though. Its doesn't say how big the army was. Also, it does not say that they were only clerics and paladins. Maybe there were 25 of them, but they were backed up with a fair number of warriors and other support teams.
Matthew L. Martin, wondering how you get an army of priests and paladins in Barovia (see p. 84, column 2, paragraph 2).
Small :D
I did use the SHeriff in my campaign but as a set of stats. Now as a costumer, I don't need to buy a 30$ book to have stats. I want stats, here they are: Wizard 10/ Thief 5th level, S10, D16, C12, I16, W10 Ch10. Wow! I just invented that in 5 seconds. Now I'll do something more: I'll give him a background (something the SHeriff lacks): he's a mage from Hazlan expelled from Hazlik's school. So, wanting to know more magic but being forbidden, he decided to steal other wizards spells. Now question does this still fit in Ravenloft? Now I'll create a legend, like some say the Sheriff is: Dread possibility: the spell stealer. Young Rashemi wizards are afraid for rumor is that a mysterious murderer hunts down Rashemi wizards to take their spellbooks. This took 2 lines.
My point is that the Sheriff is useless. The space he and his Gargoyles took should have been put to better use like permitting the author updating Carnival to complete her task. Most of the space the Sheriff takes are from his stats and combat tactics. As I said, I don't need to buy these.
I did use the SHeriff in my campaign but as a set of stats. Now as a costumer, I don't need to buy a 30$ book to have stats. I want stats, here they are: Wizard 10/ Thief 5th level, S10, D16, C12, I16, W10 Ch10. Wow! I just invented that in 5 seconds. Now I'll do something more: I'll give him a background (something the SHeriff lacks): he's a mage from Hazlan expelled from Hazlik's school. So, wanting to know more magic but being forbidden, he decided to steal other wizards spells. Now question does this still fit in Ravenloft? Now I'll create a legend, like some say the Sheriff is: Dread possibility: the spell stealer. Young Rashemi wizards are afraid for rumor is that a mysterious murderer hunts down Rashemi wizards to take their spellbooks. This took 2 lines.
By that logic, any NPC, Darklords included, are wasted space if they go over two lines.
By that logic, any NPC, Darklords included, are wasted space if they go over two lines.
I think the logic was more in the line that two lines were required to fix the Shef'
Now in my over-sarcastic example, my point is: I tried to used the Sheriff. I made a distinct effort but in the end, the character I was about to create was so far from the original one that it was my character. All the book gave me was a set of stats.
In my example above, I tried to show that I don't agree when people say the SHeriff should be just a rumor in the background. If he was only that, he should have been a Dread possibility sidebar. His full write-up was a waste of space for me.
But it's just my opinion. And in my opinion, I feel I shouldn't have bought this product and now I wait to read a few reviews (even for the Gaz) before buying a new product.
[*A question related to the Sheriff would be, "Do they have shires in Barovia?"]
Ha ha. I saw that too.
So the first thing I adjusted was the fact that that armor was for expeditions only. Certainly not for stirring up the already petrified peasants of Barovia in an everyday sense. The second being a normal but outstandingly loyal steed.
And John, your contribution(s) to the Ravenloft setting was nothing short of the word "dedicated". And being an established author of the setting, what changes, if any, would you make to make the Sheriff "viable"?
Just curious...
The book says that the sheriff "has declared illegal the trade of the Vistani elixir that protects travellers from Strahd's choking fog and possession of it by a Barovian citizen an act of treason. These crimes are punishable by death, followed by undeath."--Champions of Darkness, p. 85, emphasis added. That sure makes it sound like it's a wholesale forbiddance of the potion, and all it takes is one Gargoyle getting overzealous to bring Strahd down on them like a thunderbolt. However, that all hinged on my unspoken assumption that Strahd at best tolerates the Order, rather than endorses and supports them. I should have made that clearer.
Matthew L. Martin, wondering how you get an army of priests and paladins in Barovia (see p. 84, column 2, paragraph 2).
As someone said emphasis should have been placed on the words "Barovian citizen". Vistani are not citizen, neither are traders. They are simply passing through at various speeds.
It is an outright ban but the Vistani will still sell to anyone who is willing to risk it. It's not a bad idea and explains why the entire population of the village or Barovia has not fled and can act as a deterrent for local-born PCs from stocking up and crossing the closed border. I imagine the illegality of the trade applied to Barovians buying the potion themselves and selling to others with interest.
And if you go with the small group of Gargoyles and give them a smattering of zeal and professionalism (i.e. make them smart intelligent villains on their own right and not all mindless thugs) then they won't get "overzealous".
I do agree that the army comment was a *tad* silly. The Morninglord is a freakin' cult afterall. Army?! But as mentioned 'army' does not mean hundreds of soldiers marching in unison. The main prerequisite is not size but organisation. Almost any organised military force can be classified as an army. Just ask Dumbledore. ;)
I picture the army they mention being a half-dozen clerics and priests (not all spellcasters), a couple paladins and more than a few mercenaries and warriors, with possibly more than a few from the other lands. Think a heroic last stand or the gathering of 4-5 parties for a united cause. Eventually someone was bound to have the idea of gathering all the heroes in the land and uniting them before moving on Strahd to accomplish what they couldn’t separate. And what better time to strike?
Picture this: after months of planning they sit at the small temple nestled in its hidden mountain local near the small Barovian village of Teufeldorf. It is late in the day and the sun is only a few hours away from setting. The plans have been argued over and finally agreed on after much negotiation. They now know when and where to strike. Hands are shaken and they decide it is finally time to depart, no one wants to be outside after dark. They start to leave when they notice them coming over the horizon, dozens of skeletons and zombies lead the way. They’re not prepared for this, not now, not after such a long strenuous day. Stiff and weary they gather their arms, they are only minor undead. That’s when one of the parties drops their disguise and reveals themselves to be the lebentods and strikes without warning from behind disrupting the spellcasters’ first volleys. Riding just behind the first wave of skeletons is a giant black steed. It’s thick muscles and hide melt away revealing pale white bones as the rider pulls himself up to hid full height and adjusts the grip on his scythe. Raising it he signals the attack.
I do agree his lack of a background is the single worst element of the Sheriff. Mysterious villains are nice to trouble players but the DM needs a background. I took the liberty of writing up a few suggestions in the Tales of Ravenloft fiction netbook at:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.htm
And yes, I do know I’m shameless. :D
I started with the VRG to the Shadow Fey so there’s a lot of 3E to catch up on. Just another opinion to base judgement on.
Not to beat a corpse, but having an opinion about products is one thing, and is most certainly a consumer's right, but some people have taken it a step farther by not "attacking" the books or their contents in that same consumer sense (which most people have done in a very respectable way), but the developers "know-how" and "setting comprehension". Blindly, I should add.
They know who they are.
I'm not sure if I fall into this category or not, but upon returning to this thread it stood out and caught my eye. Regardless, I have certainly been critical of several books that have come out under the development and direction of the Dark Duo. And I have also questioned their approach to Ravenloft. I don't want it to be personal much less blind. I would like my criticisms to be balanced by praising those products they've had a hand in that I do like (such as the old Guide to Transylvania which I though was very good). But I think that there have been a string of products that have come out under their guidance that are not as strong as other recent RL material.
The 3.0 Campaign Setting and Gazetteers (1-5) were/are "homeruns". I wish every gaming product I purchased was as of high a standard. The RL DMG, and Van Richten's Arsenal were also all homeruns. Most of these products were written by people involved with the Kargatane or 2E products, with Jackie and Nickie appearing as developers. Products without the Kargatane people have been more checkered. Ther Guide to the Walking Dead was spectatcular. By comparison CHoD was IMO not a good book - especially in comparison to everything else that came out around it. The 3.5 RL PHB had some outstandingly bad rules in it (make a powers check for Tenser's Floating Disk?!?). I found Masque of the Red Death to largely be a wordy retred of the work (by Claire Hoffman) done in Living Death, albeit punctuated with a few a couple of gems (I like chapter 8)...
On the whole when I look at the library I've collected of "Dread Lore" I do see a pattern start to appear. Books done by what I'll term the Old Hands tend to be very story and character driven. Traditionally sins that have happened in the past rest unqueitly, ready to blight the future unless heroic action is taken in the present (enter the adventurers). I really like that. Sadly I don't believe I'm seeing it nearly as much in the products without the Old Hands and I do as a result question the direction the Dark Duo is taking the line.
It may be unfair of me to point the finger at the duo for the Sheriff as an example of what I don't like in the line since the Jackie and Nickie were only listed as developers for CHoD. The same as they were listed on the Gazateers for example. But the fact that they apparently believe the Sheriff has added a new and better dimension to Barovia (which they say is/was a one trick pony) doesn't comfort me at all. I hope that isn't blind or personal, but if it is I'll live with it.
-Eric Gorman
Oh, and Charney, I try to write up a full review of any new RL product I get at the same site as well as detail as many of the older products as time permits.
I started with the VRG to the Shadow Fey so there’s a lot of 3E to catch up on. Just another opinion to base judgement on.
Yeah I know and I read them all. For now, the only book I didn't buy is the Red Death because of the editing that would be needed (I'm hoping for a corrected edition eventually). You have more patience than me cause I can't write good reviews.
I'm not sure if I fall into this category or not, but upon returning to this thread it stood out and caught my eye. Regardless, I have certainly been critical of several books that have come out under the development and direction of the Dark Duo. And I have also questioned their approach to Ravenloft. I don't want it to be personal much less blind. I would like my criticisms to be balanced by praising those products they've had a hand in that I do like (such as the old Guide to Transylvania which I though was very good). But I think that there have been a string of products that have come out under their guidance that are not as strong as other recent RL material.
First, your criticisms indicate that you care very much about Ravenloft and that you have very definite ideas about what constitutes quality. Bravo for you! You can thank Nicky for the original Guide to Transylvania. Dracula has been a long-standing interest of hers.
Please note that ALL of the Ravenloft 3e and later books except the Ravenloft Campaign Setting and Secrets of the Dread Realms were developed by us. The first two books (RCS and SotDR) were developed by White Wolf in-house developers until someone could be found to focus on Ravenloft. That someone(s) happened to be us.
So, we take credit and blame for the development of both the good books and the bad, knowing that the difference between good and bad lies in the standards of the reader.
The 3.0 Campaign Setting and Gazetteers (1-5) were/are "homeruns". I wish every gaming product I purchased was as of high a standard. The RL DMG, and Van Richten's Arsenal were also all homeruns. Most of these products were written by people involved with the Kargatane or 2E products, with Jackie and Nickie appearing as developers.
Only the first two of the Gazetteers were exclusively Kargatane-written. Volumes III, IV and V were either mixed or non-Kargatane-authored. The Ravenloft DMG was something initiated by Nicky and I because we thought it was needed. It proved very successful on the whole; we attended GenCon the year it came out and heard many favorable comments. That book featured some Kargatane-written sections as well as other authors, many of whom are now regular contributors to the line.
Products without the Kargatane people have been more checkered. Ther Guide to the Walking Dead was spectatcular. By comparison CHoD was IMO not a good book - especially in comparison to everything else that came out around it. The 3.5 RL PHB had some outstandingly bad rules in it (make a powers check for Tenser's Floating Disk?!?). I found Masque of the Red Death to largely be a wordy retred of the work (by Claire Hoffman) done in Living Death, albeit punctuated with a few a couple of gems (I like chapter 8)...
Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead WAS good, wasn't it! Rucht Lilavivat and Ryan Naylor are a great team and did a superb job in presenting the undead as no one before has imagined them. The 3.5 RLPHB has had mixed reviews; it was a necessary book in order for us to keep our license for Ravenloft, we had to bring the line into compatibility with 3.5 D&D. This also involved some changes and additions to the rules. (As we've said before, if you don't like some of the rules, then change them! No one is forcing you to keep all the rules. Don't have powers checks for spells you don't feel warrant them.
As for Masque of the Red Death, Claire wrote a good bit of it because we asked her to be part of the project and she was excited that we were republishing it as a hardback addition to the new Ravenloft line. Thank Carla Hollar for her excellent work on Chapter 8 in Masque. Incidently, Carla was one of the authors of Champions of Darkness.
On the whole when I look at the library I've collected of "Dread Lore" I do see a pattern start to appear. Books done by what I'll term the Old Hands tend to be very story and character driven. Traditionally sins that have happened in the past rest unqueitly, ready to blight the future unless heroic action is taken in the present (enter the adventurers). I really like that. Sadly I don't believe I'm seeing it nearly as much in the products without the Old Hands and I do as a result question the direction the Dark Duo is taking the line.
I've addressed some of this above. The "Old Hands" are not the only ones who write story and character-driven material. We have some "older hands" at work with us now: Harold Johnson, Skip & Penny Williams, Steve Miller and, as his writing schedule permits, James Lowder -- all of whom have written for Ravenloft in the early days when TSR published the game.
Further, I need to point out that every publication of a Ravenloft title has got to go through an approval by Wizards of the Coast before we can publish it. We've had good comments from them so far, and believe me, they let us know if there's something they don't like!
I would like to add one comment about characters and metaplots. In Ravenloft the antagonists should be strong and engaging, charismatic and evil -- particularly if they're darklords. When there is too much "story" that involves other characters, that sometimes tends to get in the way of player characters acting as heroes. Games with too much metaplot (or story) too often end up placing the characters in a sideline position, acting only as supporting actors, not as leading men and women. We have tried to enable the player characters by giving them tools and ideas; the same for DMs.
There are also many many people who enjoy the "crunchy" bits -- new classes & items -- fully as much as they like in-depth character studies of NPCs. We try to present something for everyone. We don't always succeed, since people who like characters resent the crunch and people who like crunch resent character and setting details.
It may be unfair of me to point the finger at the duo for the Sheriff as an example of what I don't like in the line since the Jackie and Nickie were only listed as developers for CHoD. The same as they were listed on the Gazateers for example. But the fact that they apparently believe the Sheriff has added a new and better dimension to Barovia (which they say is/was a one trick pony) doesn't comfort me at all. I hope that isn't blind or personal, but if it is I'll live with it.
-Eric Gorman
No, you can point your finger straight at us if you like. We did not come up with the original concepts for Champions of Darkness or Heroes of Light, but we stand behind them and their authors (haven't we said this, already?). Those books added new prestige classes, feats and such and gave some ideas about running campaigns that focused on darker characters or on the very very "good" characters.
So, we're the developers. We're to blame for everything wrong. Our authors are responsible for everything right.
That's how it is.Oh -- Nicky's name is spelled with a "y" -- not an "ie." Jackie has the "ie." ;)
Thanks for your well-stated opinions.
Jackie (the darker half of the duo)
So, we take credit and blame for the development of both the good books and the bad, knowing that the difference between good and bad lies in the standards of the reader.
That quote, right there, is a fine example of why, three years after becoming line developers for a D20 game, it took you several tries -- after the book was published -- to explain something as simple as how a tradesman gets skills in MotRD.
No, you can point your finger straight at us if you like. We did not come up with the original concepts for Champions of Darkness or Heroes of Light
...or Denizens of Darkness, or Van Richten's Arsenal, or the Gazetteers, or Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead, or Van Richten's Guide to the Shadow Fey, or the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, or the (accidentally retitled) Denizens of Dread, or Masque of the Red Death, or Legacy of the Blood...
And John, your contribution(s) to the Ravenloft setting was nothing short of the word "dedicated". And being an established author of the setting, what changes, if any, would you make to make the Sheriff "viable"?
Well, the first problem with the "Sheriff" is that he's extraneous -- he essentially fills a role already filled by Vasili van Holst (I hope I'm remembering that name correctly), Strahd's "representative" when he doesn't want to be seen as being personally involved. On top of that basis they've lain aspects of the (purposely) overtly brutal and faceless Talons of Falkovnia, so this one character manages to bleed away distinctive elements of two domains.
Another problem is the Gargoyles -- presented as being an army created to root out the Kargat. Azalin has about 200 Kargat, total, and considering that their primary purpose is to grease the wheels of Darkonian law, at most, maybe, half of them may be posted beyond Darkon's borders. In the end, it's probably highly generous to assume that there's more Kargat in Barovia than you could count on one hand. Rooting out five guys requires an army? And if so, why not use, say, the army? Barovia does have one...
But the question is how to make the Sheriff and the Gargoyles fit into Barovia's atmosphere. Well, at the very least, I would look up the correct name for a "sheriff" in a country with Barovia's territorial system. I also have no idea why the guy's named "von Zarovich." As for the Gargoyles, there was a secret society that served the same role in Andrew Wyatt's original draft of the Barovia gazetteer -- a covert group of giorgio informants who kept tabs on their neighbors in return for payoffs. Same goals, but with the added bonus of subtlety in a domain of subtleties. Sadly, I cut the group (in my role as shadow developer), primarily due to space, but also because I felt that Strahd already had an extremely effective network of spies who could cross borders for him -- they're called the Vistani. However, in 20/20 hindsight, knowing that the concept of a giorgio secret spy ring in Barovia was inevitable, boy did I make the wrong call. I have, honestly, felt bad about cutting out Andrew's good idea, inadvertantly making room for a bad idea, ever since.
I don't remember the name of Wyatt's group, but I'll check when I get home from the office. I think it was the Vespertines, come to think of it. Even the name was more thematically appropriate.
Here's another problem with the Sheriff and the Gargoyles -- outlawing sale of the Vistani remedy is actually counter-productive to Strahd's goals. Strahd's many things, but stupid isn't one of them. As it is, the ring of fog encasing the Svalich Pass creates a natural chokepoint for trade and information. For now, the Svalich Pass is the only route through the Balinoks; the mountains to the north and south are exceptionally trecherous, without a single reliable secondary route to fall back on (at least since the severing of the Timori Road). As it is, going through the Village of Barovia is onerous but not outrageous. Everyone who wants to go through Barovia has to pass through the fog, be they trader carvan or adventuring party. To get out, they have to deal with the Vistani -- and the Vistani report all their dealings to Strahd, as part of their pact. End result: Strahd knows exactly who's snooping around.
Now, we have Strahd outlawing sale of the remedy. This would not be difficult to enforce -- just have some wolves and bats hang out near the gates and watch for giorgios trying to get out. So, giorgios quickly figure out that there's no way out of the Svalich Pass for them. No way out at all. The Svalich Pass has now been severed as effectively as the Timori Road. Just as is happening up north, it becomes worthwhile for others in power to find new ways around the Balinoks that bypass Strahd and his fog entirely. This path would either have to carve through the Barovian Balinoks or, possibly, cut through the extreme southern lowlands slipping between Kartakass and Hazlan along the razor's edge between Forlorn and the Dead Hills.
Unlike the north, there's no conveniently located superpower with the will and ability to create that new road, but it *would* happen eventually, what with the relationship between necessity and invention, after all. In the long run -- which, as a centuries-old vampire, Strahd would certainly be looking at -- he loses his chokehold entirely. Having severed the route passing literally under his shadow, he no longer gets the trade (less trade means less taxes means less coin in his coffers means less soldiers and magical experiments), and he loses an extraordinarily convenient way of spying on roaming do-gooders.
And he ticks off the Vistani, since he denies them their ability to collect the "captive tax."
It's just ill-considered, and that's before we get into the high-magic town of lebendtod and whatnot.
I agree with what some other posters have said -- from what I'm seeing, among the people who do use the Sheriff, what most of them actually seem to like about him are actually the new ideas they've created to make him palatable -- they're giving the book credit for the product of their own imaginations.
I don't remember the name of Wyatt's group, but I'll check when I get home from the office. I think it was the Vespertines, come to think of it. Even the name was more thematically appropriate.
It was the Vespertine. I remember because I've always felt that name was cool as hell. :D
That quote, right there, is a fine example of why, three years after becoming line developers for a D20 game, it took you several tries -- after the book was published -- to explain something as simple as how a tradesman gets skills in MotRD.
The person who asked that question in a private email so the clarifications could be posted on FoS thanked me for the information. He did not question the competency of either the developers or the writers.
Sometimes matters that are clear to some are not clear to others. Even Shakespeare and the Bible have hundreds of commentaries interpreting their works. It's why they hand out degrees in literature.
I agree with what some other posters have said -- from what I'm seeing, among the people who do use the Sheriff, what most of them actually seem to like about him are actually the new ideas they've created to make him palatable -- they're giving the book credit for the product of their own imaginations.
And that's what books are supposed to do -- spark the imaginative process in readers, not glut them with so much detail that nothing is left for the imagination.
I never liked the portrayal of half-orcs in D&D, so I never ran them (or played them) as portrayed.
Your knowledge of the setting is indeed prodigious and so is your comprehension of the politics. Unfortunately, there's little room for disagreement and variance, which is what makes one person's Ravenloft different from another person's Dread Realm.
Jackie
But that's a cop-out. The problem now is that they exist as part of whatever nebulous sense of canon remains in the anything-goes reign of the current developers.
Well, that's fixable too. Heck, banging down jagged nails to create a smooth surface is a specialty. So, let's say we're talking about a theoretical fourth edition revamp, where I'd feel most comfortable about wholesale retcons. (For the remainder of the 3.5 era, I'd just admit to fans that the concept was poorly executed and avoid mentioning them again.)
In fourth edition, I'd say that Strahd decided to recruit a "real" Vasili von Holst -- a right hand who could speak with Strahd's authority, letting Strahd focus on more pressing obsessions (such as the mystery of the missing Tatyana). He did so, plucking some pitiless sort out of the Vespertines. Strahd got a little too distracted, however, and once the "Sheriff" realized he wasn't really being watched, he rapidly became a walking abuse of power. Recruited his own splinter group -- the gargoyles -- and became a holy terror. At first, he speaks with Strahd's authority. Within a couple of years, the guy's claiming to be a member of the von Zarovich line and he's spreading all kinds of nightmarish legends about himself -- such as having whole villages of undead warlocks under his control -- and attempting to justify his actions among the populace by spreading fear of some (phantom) pervasive Kargat presence. Eventually the "Sheriff" goes too far -- perhaps he actually does wipe out a whole village -- and Strahd takes notice. As has been established, Strahd doesn't really care about the deaths, but he does consider everyone and everything in Barovia to be his property. Thus, a destructive act against the Barovians is a slap to his face. The Sheriff and his men get wiped out shortly thereafter. Their bodies get dumped in various town squares one night -- and their heads in others.
End of story.
'Course, this version is still imperfect -- it's too much of a parallel to Azalin's problems with Tavelia and the Kargat. But this would be my starting point when thinking of fixes.
...or Denizens of Darkness, or Van Richten's Arsenal, or the Gazetteers, or Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead, or Van Richten's Guide to the Shadow Fey, or the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, or the (accidentally retitled) Denizens of Dread, or Masque of the Red Death, or Legacy of the Blood...
As is the case with many game lines, the prospective book ideas come from many sources. Some are suggested by the bosses of the line developers, some are suggested by writers and groups like the Kargatane. Some come from the fans, who indicate what books they'd like to see. And some, like Masque of the Red Death, were original Ravenloft products that were reborn in 3.5 ed. D&D -- and that was our doing since many Living Death and Red Death fans were asking for it. Some of the books, like the Ravenloft DMG, were proposed by us. Others, like the Ravenloft Tarokka deck, were a joint proposal from us and the Art Director of Arthaus/Sword & Sorcery. If I remember correctly, Legacy of the Blood was an idea first proposed by Andrew Wyatt based on an idea you and he had been kicking around.
So, the proposals come from a lot of places. They shouldn't come just from the developers. That's a little ego-centric.
Jackie
Jackie
Now I'm proud since what John just described is exactly what my : Die Sheriff, Die! game was all about :D
And that's what books are supposed to do -- spark the imaginative process in readers
Right. Spark imaginations. Not fanwanking, to borrow a term from Buffy fandom.
Let's make this plain: Broken rules are a matter of technical writing, not individual taste. You've regularly published game elements that are unplayable and/or directly contradict other rules, often presented elsewhere in the same book. This isn't giving readers an opportunity to pick which they prefer -- it's sloppiness, created by your consistent lack of author oversight and familiarity with the 3.E ruleset.
The fact that you keep shuffling this problem off to the straw men of personal taste or fan loyalty indicates nothing more than that you have no intention of doing a better job.
Readers aren't shelling out money to fix mistakes you were paid to catch.
I'd run off a list of some of the other black-and-white rules mistakes you put into print, but as you well remember from when you saw it a year ago, it runs for page after page after page...
In three years I never observed any of my typos or assorted errors get caught and fixed, either. Of course, as you two once told me, getting the rules right "is what errata is for." Good thing you've been so timely about releasing it.
Psst. I'll conclude with a private comment from my archives. This person is a current, respected White Wolf writer.
"I know J&N's work from back several years now, and to be honest, they're just not that good. They've produced a few great books and a ton of suck."
It's a reputation that follows you like a shadow, and did before I ever opened my mouth.
If I remember correctly, Legacy of the Blood was an idea first proposed by Andrew Wyatt based on an idea you and he had been kicking around.
Actually, Legacy of the Blood was Wyatt's idea -- credit where credit is due. The Gazetteers were a Kargatane concept. Ditto the Van Richten Guides published so far. We were also pushing -- hard -- for a proper DMG before your successor ever contacted you. (Case in point, large sections of the DMG were drawn directly from unused material from Secrets of the Dread Realms, back when we were scrabbling to have that be the DMG.) Likewise, we also suggested the Tarokka deck to your successors -- rather, to be clear, pushed the concept while explaining that it had been on WotC's product schedule before they closed the line.
(Trivia adide for the fans: Berni Wrightson was slated to do about half the cards, with the other half done by an artist with a similar style.)
DoD also followed our suggestion, and VRA came from your successor.
Congrats. The sum total of ideas you've brought to the published 3E Ravenloft schedule to date has been "Let's repackage MotRD."
Say what you like.
My apologies to the other posters for having to read this "litany" of my alleged transgressions.
I already know that some White Wolf writers don't like our work. It comes with the territory. I know others that do like my work. There are probably some WW writers whose work I don't particularly care for, but I don't go blabbing it out to justify my own competence.
Take care that you don't infringe on other's privacy. I try to exercise some caution, civility and courtesy in my correspondence.
Jackie
Let's talk about Ravenloft.
So, we're the developers. We're to blame for everything wrong. Our authors are responsible for everything right.
Yes, actually. To a degree, anyway. I think that the quality of the various Ravenloft books has existed almost completely independent of the developers.
A good book will probably be a good book even before it reaches a developer. Some of the fat may be trimmed, perhaps what's good might be turned great, but when you get down to it, most of the writing is still coming from the author.
However, in the case of a bad book, I think as much blame as can be laid at the authors feet can be done so with anyone who helped the thing to print. I'm not aware of the full duties of a lines developer, but a lot of it seems to come down to quality control. Making sure that the mood and tone for a line are kept. Insuring that the rules are more or less up to code. Providing direction for the writer. Making sure no contradictions exist between one book and the next (I don't expect every Ravenloft author to own every Ravenloft book; I do expect an editor or developer or what not to be able to play 'damage control' for the ones the author doesn't own).
So when something good or bad comes out, the author can be given the credit in both cases. However, unlike with a good book, the developers do share some of the blame for letting it see print. For not acting as quality control.
Actually, Legacy of the Blood was Wyatt's idea -- credit where credit is due. The Gazetteers were a Kargatane concept. Ditto the Van Richten Guides published so far. We were also pushing -- hard -- for a proper DMG before your successor ever contacted you. (Case in point, large sections of the DMG were drawn directly from unused material from Secrets of the Dread Realms, back when we were scrabbling to have that be the DMG.) Likewise, we also suggested the Tarokka deck to your successors -- rather, to be clear, pushed the concept while explaining that it had been on WotC's product schedule before they closed the line.
(Trivia adide for the fans: Berni Wrightson was slated to do about half the cards, with the other half done by an artist with a similar style.)
DoD also followed our suggestion, and VRA came from your successor.
I think you mean "predecessor" instead of "successor," John.
Other than that...yeah. This is all true.
John,
Say what you like.
My apologies to the other posters for having to read this "litany" of my alleged transgressions.
I already know that some White Wolf writers don't like our work. It comes with the territory. I know others that do like my work. There are probably some WW writers whose work I don't particularly care for, but I don't go blabbing it out to justify my own competence.
Take care that you don't infringe on other's privacy. I try to exercise some caution, civility and courtesy in my correspondence.
Jackie
Let's talk about Ravenloft.
Oh, no need to apologize, at least on my part.
I rather enjoy these sorts of confessions. I understand why the various developers, writers, etc, are close-lipped about things - NDA, not wanting to bite the hand that feeds you, etc - but it's the most frustrating thing in the world. Especially when unconfirmed suspicions are right. Take the recent cancellation of the Scarred Lands; people were guessing that's precisely what was going on months before the official word came. One of the guys over at Necromancer games outright said one of the setting's developers told him the line was cancelled. Yet, despite statements like that, and other aroused suspicions in a number of threads in forums where the developers and writers regularly popped in, not one word saying 'yay' or 'nay' came up. At most, one individual who knew the line was cancelled ahead of time went so far as to make statements that actively undermined those saying the line was cancelled - that was a real kicker when I found out he knew.
So I understand why this information doesn't regularly crop up. But it's also one of the the most frustrating of things, too, that it's generally kept quiet. More so when the suspicions generally prove to be perfectly valid.
But you're right. Let's talk about Ravenloft.
In which case, John Mangrum's idea on the Sheriff? Best idea I've yet to see for him. That's if he has to be recognized as canon in anyway; for my part, I still say do away with him entirely. But if he has to be acknowledged, well, that's a good start.
But you're right. Let's talk about Ravenloft.
In which case, John Mangrum's idea on the Sheriff? Best idea I've yet to see for him. That's if he has to be recognized as canon in anyway; for my part, I still say do away with him entirely. But if he has to be acknowledged, well, that's a good start.
It is a very good idea if you don't like the Sheriff. And I still say, if you disagree with what's "canon," change it. I can't say it often enough (maybe because it was such a hard lesson for me to learn) -- just because it's written in a book doesn't make it carved in stone, even if you were the one who wrote it!
Canon is one way of looking at things -- the "official" way, so to speak. Then there are optional rules. Most supplements, even if they contain information that is "official" are also optional to the extent that not everyone has to own every book to play the game. If you own the core book and the monster book, you have enough material to run your own Ravenloft games. They may differ wildly from the "official" story, but they are still Ravenloft.
In the case of the Sheriff, most people who use him will probably look for a way to do away with him -- and that's valid. How many people who play Ravenloft have actually killed a Darklord? Or gone gunning for one?
The original Ravenloft adventure by Tracy & Laura Hickman, the one that started it all off, set mid-level characters against a vampire/mage that could easily take out the party unless they were very very careful. But people still entered Castle Ravenloft and characters still tried to fight Strahd (and usually died in the process).
When we played the module many years ago, the players actually changed the plot somewhat by what they did!
If you think the Sheriff is not worth mentioning, don't mention him. Same with the Ebon Gargoyles!
And believe me, there are people who do like the Sheriff and the Gargoyles.
Jackie
I rather enjoy these sorts of confessions. I understand why the various developers, writers, etc, are close-lipped about things - NDA, not wanting to bite the hand that feeds you, etc - but it's the most frustrating thing in the world. Especially when unconfirmed suspicions are right. Take the recent cancellation of the Scarred Lands; people were guessing that's precisely what was going on months before the official word came. One of the guys over at Necromancer games outright said one of the setting's developers told him the line was cancelled. Yet, despite statements like that, and other aroused suspicions in a number of threads in forums where the developers and writers regularly popped in, not one word saying 'yay' or 'nay' came up. At most, one individual who knew the line was cancelled ahead of time went so far as to make statements that actively undermined those saying the line was cancelled - that was a real kicker when I found out he knew.
Law of averages; if you say something enough times it will eventually be true.
I’ve made enough comments in the past about being afraid of the future of Ravenloft. Mostly because we’ve heard so little about future books and there is such a strong backlash and angry vibe towards many of the recent books.
MotRD causes people to rant about the errors. CoD refuses to dies as does the debate over the four new pages in the RL: PHB. GazIV gets shouted down because it is too crowded and too much was cut out. GazV for the lack of Dread Possibilities. It seems like they could publish a mammoth 400 page book updating the Carnival, filling in all the missed Islands and revealing a giant master plan for the ToUD as well as the final fate of VanRichten with a couple huge poster maps tucked in and people would launch into an assault because there was not enough Kargatane involvement or they didn’t like X change or the fact character Y is missing a feat.
Just not happy unless they’re complaining about something…
In which case, John Mangrum's idea on the Sheriff? Best idea I've yet to see for him. That's if he has to be recognised as canon in anyway; for my part, I still say do away with him entirely. But if he has to be acknowledged, well, that's a good start.
It was “eh”. My thoughts have been voiced on the illegality of the Vistani potion so that part doesn’t mesh with my view.
Other than that it seems just too simplistic. “I don’t like this character so I’ll just kill him.” It felt like he simply wasn’t trying. Which he wasn’t. He half-admits that himself when he says its too like Tavelia and thus not particularly original.
Killing an NPC, any NPC, is usually best served as part of a story. Doing otherwise often comes off as simply killing for shock value or lack of ideas. I’ve seen this too often in my own group where the DM has a dry spell for a character so he just offs them. It’s a “rocks fall everyone dies” solution and just about as elegant.
Please note that ALL of the Ravenloft 3e and later books except the Ravenloft Campaign Setting and Secrets of the Dread Realms were developed by us. The first two books (RCS and SotDR) were developed by White Wolf in-house developers until someone could be found to focus on Ravenloft. That someone(s) happened to be us.
And given the dramatic swing in tone, variance in rules, and divergences in continuity, there seems to be little direction or involvement from the line developers on maintaining line consistency. The most blatant case in point is the sudden swing in Barovia's tone between two books published within a month of each other.
Only the first two of the Gazetteers were exclusively Kargatane-written. Volumes III, IV and V were either mixed or non-Kargatane-authored.
All of them were 'mixed'. In Gaz III, Mordent was written by Peter Woodward, and has been noted for being strangely formatted and off-tone. (A free word of advice, based on something I'd picked up from reading the first two Gazetteers: "S" should never use the terms 'good' and 'evil' in anything other than a citation or in a sardonic or ironic sense.) Gaz IV saw Anthony Pryor's work on Invidia, which was well-received, and James Lowder and Voronica Whitney-Robinson doing Sithicus. Gaz V had Steve Miller building Tepest off of John Mangrum's outline, and despite some rough spots, likewise turned out well.
So far, that's four domains out of twenty by non-Kargatane writers, for reference.
The 3.5 RLPHB has had mixed reviews; it was a necessary book in order for us to keep our license for Ravenloft, we had to bring the line into compatibility with 3.5 D&D.
It would be nice if it had been more consistent in doing so. Two points that stick out for casual scans:
Now that paladin mounts in the core game travel back and forth between the Upper Planes and the paladin's location, what changes need to be made for Ravenloft, where summoning is universally a one-way trip?
3.5E boosted animate dead so that it now animates twice the caster's level in Hit Dice with each casting, as opposed to the level's worth that had been standard in 2E and 3E. Since the spell's supposed to be more effective in Ravenloft, how many HD of undead should it create?
This also involved some changes and additions to the rules. (As we've said before, if you don't like some of the rules, then change them! No one is forcing you to keep all the rules. Don't have powers checks for spells you don't feel warrant them.
True, the rules are modular enough that they can be dumped without trouble. But they still have two glaring problems
1. They are sloppy in design and in some cases, ill-fitting with the rest of the setting. The Powers Check for learing spells has been much discussed, with the oddity that learning Tenser's floating disk, heroism, and sending requires a powers check while learning nightmare or trap the soul does not. But it's the druid weakness that I think really breaks the setting. On a thematic level, the idea of requiring a powers check for evil actions forced on a player character goes against everything those checks has ever stood for, from Realm of Terror ("A PC who intentionaly commits an evil act . . . may trigger a powers check", p. 17) to the text in R3E and presumably the RL PH ("Whenever a player character willingly performs an evil act . . . ", p. 85, R3E LE). On a setting level, I ran the numbers once, and assuming the 'unofficial default scale' for the Core, a druid in Forlorn will wind up joining Tristen ApBlanc within two years, on average, which nicely torpedoes the two hundred years of druidic resistance to the darklord. (I admit that those numbers are based on an assumption of one check for a powers check per day, with a 1% chance of failure if a check is called for--I don't believe the rules as written say anything about frequency or the severity of the 'evil acts' the Weakness forces.)
2. These rules are presented in the core product for the setting, which means that they'll be encountered by DMs and players new to it. Such players may not recognize the problems created by these rules at first glance, which is why the claims of "DM's discretion" seem weak--especially since advice about using DM's judgement appears nowhere in the text of the Weaknesses themselves. In addition, those rules hamstring classes to the point of reinforcing the 'Ravenloft as meatgrinder' image that turns many off to the setting.
So, we're the developers. We're to blame for everything wrong. Our authors are responsible for everything right.
*Shrug* From what I can tell, the authors are responsible for pretty much everything save project assignments and cutting material for length.
Matthew L. Martin
"Bah, mutter, mutter, grumble! Champions of Darkness was teh suxxorz!"
But then, you all already know that's my opinion.
Post edited. I still believe pretty much everything I said, but I don't think it's helping really any at all by this point except to stir up more ire.
Eh. While I'll probably go off half-cocked again and possibly soon, I'll leave on this note:
I honestly believe Jackie and Nicky enjoy the Ravenloft setting. I don't think anyone who does work in the role-playing industry does it for the money. If they're doing it, it's because they love it.
I think that the best Ravenloft material out there can be attributed to the Kargatane.
I did look up Carla Hollar and the other Champions of Darkness authors and do intend on reading some of what they've written before in the hopes of rounding out my view on them.
I do believe that the current Ravenloft line has some quality authors still working for it.
I think a Sheriff-type character could fit in Ravenloft (and I'll leave it at that).
(Trivia adide for the fans: Berni Wrightson was slated to do about half the cards, with the other half done by an artist with a similar style.)
Before this thread gets *really* ugly, I just wanted to comment on that aside: Wow.
I enjoy Talon Dunning's RL work plenty, but having Wrightson working on Ravenloft art in any significant capacity would be a hell of a thing!
I think you mean "predecessor" instead of "successor," John.
Other than that...yeah. This is all true.
D'Oh! Well, at least I haven't reverted to dropping my "nots."
having Wrightson working on Ravenloft art in any significant capacity would be a hell of a thing!
Wouldn't it?
And isn't it Bernie?
Before this thread gets *really* ugly, I just wanted to comment on that aside: Wow.
I enjoy Talon Dunning's RL work plenty, but having Wrightson working on Ravenloft art in any significant capacity would be a hell of a thing!
Wouldn't it though? And I don't say that to knock Talon Dunning, either -- I absolutely love his work on the line and thought his Tarokka deck in particular was fantastic.
But this would be my starting point when thinking of fixes.
That's not a bad little 'patch', actually. A little thin (in a rushed sense), but not bad.
I'd give the Sheriff just enough of a reign of terror for possible PC involvement (a short side adventure of sorts...just for a quick and painless "Barovia without Strahd"/ "What If?" disposable plot), and call it at that.
If I didn't already have plans for the fella.
It's something to think about all the same...
As for the similarity with Azalin's problems with Tavelia (which I'm not entirely sure about to be honest), you could even play that as a dark twist of fate. How ironic that two bitter rivals are connected by parallel circumstances! They just cannot escape one another's utterance, forever locked in that oh-so-hated stalemate of existance.
Of course, a fan backlash very similar to this one would no doubt follow.
Wouldn't it though? And I don't say that to knock Talon Dunning, either -- I absolutely love his work on the line and thought his Tarokka deck in particular was fantastic.
The Tarokka deck is incredibly beautiful thanks to Talon and to Carla Hollar, whose work on the Tarokka in the Ravenloft DMG is one of the highlights of the book and formed the basis for interpreting the deck. I had the privilege of meeting Talon at DragonCon and talking with him about his art and the Tarokka in particular. I also was in communication with him on Legacy of the Blood and we were able to talk back and forth so that we could answer questions he had about the art notes we sent for the book. It was interesting and a "d'oh!" moment for both of us. He'd been used to working with the Arthaus Art Director and it finally occurred to him that he could ask me directly for more details about a particular picture. It was quite interesting to see a book from the artist's point of view. I highly recommend it for people who are so attuned to words and verbalization that they often overlook the visual and spatial aspects of things.
One of the things I particularly liked about Talon's Tarokka was his homage to the original deck -- bits and pieces here and there brought that old deck to mind and paid tribute to what had gone before. A classy touch by a true professional!
Admiringly,
Jackie
The person who asked that question in a private email so the clarifications could be posted on FoS thanked me for the information. He did not question the competency of either the developers or the writers.
Sometimes matters that are clear to some are not clear to others. Even Shakespeare and the Bible have hundreds of commentaries interpreting their works. It's why they hand out degrees in literature.
Comparing yourselves to Shakespeare is a bit much, isn't it?
Comparing yourselves to Shakespeare is a bit much, isn't it?
It is, isn't it? Provided you read the comment in a way other than the way in which it was intended.
Besides, it's not as bad as comparing ourselves to the Bible, in my opinion. :D
The point, to belabor it, was that many written works have commentaries written later about them trying to puzzle out their meaning, clarify their allusions or interpret their rules.
Do I think we're in the same league as Shakespeare? Of course not!
Silly person!
Jackie
I'm not aware of the full duties of a lines developer, but a lot of it seems to come down to quality control. Making sure that the mood and tone for a line are kept. Insuring that the rules are more or less up to code. Providing direction for the writer. Making sure no contradictions exist between one book and the next (I don't expect every Ravenloft author to own every Ravenloft book; I do expect an editor or developer or what not to be able to play 'damage control' for the ones the author doesn't own).
I'd agree with your assessment of the role of the developer in producing a book - it's certainly what I observed in the WotC writing process. I playtested a couple of products for Cindi Rice when she was running the RL line, and she made *extensive* changes to the original material submitted by the authors in many cases.
I particularly remember Vecna Reborn, which was extremely different in its original draft - far more hack-and-slashy in its first iteration. We discussed the first draft, Cindi re-wrote a huge amount of material and introduced a lot of interesting Ravenlofty themes before I even went ahead with the playtest! Cindi had a great eye for Ravenloft, and regularly made massive improvements to the work turned in by authors.
Steve Miller has commented on how he also had to make significant changes to author's work when he was developer too, in order to ensure a common theme and style throughout products.
It looks like White Wolf generally focuses on having their developers collate submissions and cut for wordcount, though - from what we've seen in the RL line to date, their scope is significantly smaller...
Stu
fanwanking
I hate to say this, but is language like that really acceptable on these forums? I mean the word was cut from the BtVS reruns outside the UK (at least before the watershed in each respective country) after it was discovered what it meant.
I'd agree with your assessment of the role of the developer in producing a book - it's certainly what I observed in the WotC writing process. I playtested a couple of products for Cindi Rice when she was running the RL line, and she made *extensive* changes to the original material submitted by the authors in many cases.
I particularly remember Vecna Reborn, which was extremely different in its original draft - far more hack-and-slashy in its first iteration. We discussed the first draft, Cindi re-wrote a huge amount of material and introduced a lot of interesting Ravenlofty themes before I even went ahead with the playtest! Cindi had a great eye for Ravenloft, and regularly made massive improvements to the work turned in by authors.
Steve Miller has commented on how he also had to make significant changes to author's work when he was developer too, in order to ensure a common theme and style throughout products.
It looks like White Wolf generally focuses on having their developers collate submissions and cut for wordcount, though - from what we've seen in the RL line to date, their scope is significantly smaller...
Stu
At least for us, as freelance developers who do our work from home, NOT at the White Wolf office, there are some things we don't do. The actual contracting is handled in-house, as is the cutting of checks, mailing of author/editor/developer comp copies, etc. The books we submit after we've done our work on it are then reviewed by our manager (formerly Andrew Bates), who often made changes in our work and let us know what we needed to do in the future to improve our part of the process. Andrew also did the final .pdf proof for the book because there was such a short turn-around time between the arrival of the .pdf from the printers and the beginning of the actual print run.
Lots of "office work" was handled in the White Wolf office. The art direction and layout are handled by the art director after we give recommendations for what we'd like to see pictured in the books. The art director chooses the artists.
The hardest part of what we do is cutting the work of our authors to fit a pre-determined word count. And we haven't been very good at doing that. When we come near the word count, we consider ourselves lucky. Most of the time, we can't bear cutting out so many good parts and each excision of a Dread Possibility or a sidebar is excruciatingly painful.
On the other hand, we don't have to attend weekly meetings!
J&N
Regardless of how the differences between these two works arose, I would like to see them reconciled. I don't think the Sheriff is such a bad idea that he can't be salvaged, especially now that the publication of the new Ravenloft book Legacy of the Blood has changed the context of this discussion. Now that we know that there is quite a few members of the Von Zarovich famiy living in Barovia, it seems to me plausible that most of the leading members of the Ebon Gargoyles, including the Sheriff himself, might belong to the Von Zarovich family. Many Von Zarovich's have a talent for arcane magic, so they might even have founded a small magical academy to help train tyrant mages. (The ghost instructors and need to learn teleportation could just be rumors spread to make the E.G. more frightening.)
I agree that the Ebon Gargoles need to be a subtle, secretive organization if they are to work in Barovia. Talena Von Zarovich, a 14th level Tyrant Mage
who is known as Strahd's Dagger, seems a much better choice to lead the Gargoyles than the Sheriff ever was. But if Strahd needs a "Dagger", perhaps he also occasionally needs a "Sword". That would be the role the Sheriff could play. A big unsubtle threat that is only brought out on the rare occasions when the Gargoyles have to deal with a problem that can only be solved by overwhelming force. The Sheriff I would use, if I wanted this NPC to appear in a game I was running, would probably be a Crimson Hound, rather than a Scourge.
I hate to say this, but is language like that really acceptable on these forums? I mean the word was cut from the BtVS reruns outside the UK (at least before the watershed in each respective country) after it was discovered what it meant.
Wiccy, don't take away the Brits ability to swear and have the Americans remain oblivious! It's one of our last freedoms!
I've never really liked the Sheriff myself, because he didn't seem to fit into the Barovia described in Gaz 1. I think his story and stats need to be changed in the same way that Tristen Hiregaard's were, because as written they just don't fit. Since Jackie and Nicky are participating in this thread, I'd like to ask them why the Barovia in Gaz 1 and the Barovia in Champions of Darkness seem so different. Did you finish working on Gaz 1 before you learned what was in Champions?
That sort of thing often happens with the tight scheduling that sometimes occurs between books. Still, we could have been tighter about our correspondences between the two books. On the other hand, you might want to consider that everything you're told in the Gazetteers comes through the filter of "S's" personality, and while she is incredibly observant, she is also quite selective in her observances.
Regardless of how the differences between these two works arose, I would like to see them reconciled. I don't think the Sheriff is such a bad idea that he can't be salvaged, especially now that the publication of the new Ravenloft book Legacy of the Blood has changed the context of this discussion. Now that we know that there is quite a few members of the Von Zarovich famiy living in Barovia, it seems to me plausible that most of the leading members of the Ebon Gargoyles, including the Sheriff himself, might belong to the Von Zarovich family. Many Von Zarovich's have a talent for arcane magic, so they might even have founded a small magical academy to help train tyrant mages. (The ghost instructors and need to learn teleportation could just be rumors spread to make the E.G. more frightening.)
I agree that the Ebon Gargoles need to be a subtle, secretive organization if they are to work in Barovia. Talena Von Zarovich, a 14th level Tyrant Mage
who is known as Strahd's Dagger, seems a much better choice to lead the Gargoyles than the Sheriff ever was. But if Strahd needs a "Dagger", perhaps he also occasionally needs a "Sword". That would be the role the Sheriff could play. A big unsubtle threat that is only brought out on the rare occasions when the Gargoyles have to deal with a problem that can only be solved by overwhelming force. The Sheriff I would use, if I wanted this NPC to appear in a game I was running, would probably be a Crimson Hound, rather than a Scourge.
All good ideas, and it sounds like you've done the bulk of reconciliation work on your own! There is nothing to prevent you from changing the Sheriff to a Crimson Hound -- at the time he was written up, the Crimson Hound prestige class had not yet been created.
J&N
I'd agree with your assessment of the role of the developer in producing a book ...
Stu
Sorry to clutter up this thread even more, but Stu, I've been trying to get in touch with you. Could you read your Private Messages at the FoS or drop me an email if you have a chance?
Thanks,
Ron
I hate to say this, but is language like that really acceptable on these forums? I mean the word was cut from the BtVS reruns outside the UK (at least before the watershed in each respective country) after it was discovered what it meant.
Okay? So, when did -that word- appear in Buffy? I must have missed that ep. because it doesn't ring a bell. How the heck did that come up?
Okay? So, when did -that word- appear in Buffy? I must have missed that ep. because it doesn't ring a bell. How the heck did that come up?
I think he's referring to Giles and Spike calling people wankers.
M'neh, they never censored the score composer's name either, his name? Thomas Wanker. Look in the credits, it's true.
Back on topic now...
Now fanwanking, from what I've managed to gather from online, is fans filling in percieved plotholes. Now this does sound silly, if dedicated, for TV and books. They're a very passive from of entertainment. But RPGs tend to have *some* DM and player involvement in the stories and worlds. Just a tad. Everyone has their own opinion and their own ideas for stories to tell. So some fanwanking and plothole-filling is inevitable. Heck, it should almost be encouraged, it pushes creative thinking....
Yeah, beacuse lord knows something 70% of the world has done, at least once at one point or another, and another 20% will do once they hit puberty is evil and wrong and should never be mentioned or talked about...
Now fanwanking, from what I've managed to gather from online, is fans filling in percieved plotholes. Now this does sound silly, if dedicated, for TV and books. They're a very passive from of entertainment. But RPGs tend to have *some* DM and player involvement in the stories and worlds. Just a tad. Everyone has their own opinion and their own ideas for stories to tell. So some fanwanking and plothole-filling is inevitable. Heck, it should almost be encouraged, it pushes creative thinking....
Well, if that's what it means (instead of what it sounds like it means), then it doesn't sound bad at all!
Reminds me of when I was little and used to re-imagine the ends of TV programs when I didn't like the way they ended (i.e., if my favorite character got killed...).
Jackie
I've been imagining solutions and filling plot-holes in my head since I was still single-digits in age...
Anyway now that I've established all that, on to my opinion of Sheriff Von Zarovich. Having already encountered Lyssa in their journey through Gundarak (without having discovered her enmity with her uncle) it's not at all surprising to them to encounter another member of this family. After some unfortunate business, some of the players started new characters who were native to the area of Berez after another group made their way through The Balinoks and dealt with the mothman-like Mahr thing. Every single character in the group at that point was chaotic except for a solitary lawful good monk and I used a proto-sherriff in his backstory. The player wanted to recycle a backstory from his dead monk that involved his parents being killed by giant spiders but since I don't allow exact duplication of characters like that (there are an unusual lot of twin brothers imc) and this monk was from Barovia instead of Gundarak, I changed the monsters who killed his parents into goblyns and instituted a strict goblyn extermination policy as one of Strahd's edicts for Barovia. IMC, the sheriff at this point is just an actual sheriff type character who has various duties around the realm including wiping out goblyns who wander through the mountains. He currently appears as a relatively typical chavalier-like NPC in normal full plate with Barovian crests and banners. Through simple coincidence he saved the life of this monk character but the monk character mistakenly percieves it as a heroic action which lead him to his lawful good alignment and supports the flavor of Strahd as "good guy" which I'm currently encouraging.
To me, horror gaming is about the players being constantly kept off balance. Things shouldn't be the way they think that they are. They want for things to be a certain way and intelligent creatures like Strahd are happy enough to let them believe such. The slight discomfort coming from player knowledge of the two who've experienced the other side of Barovia helps with this. Their characters are, as I type this, sleeping safely in comfortable guest quarters that have been set up for them in the larders of ill omen and when they awake, they will be dispatched for Harmonium to assist Akriel. Between Gundar's daughter and Akriel, Strahd is certainly seeming to take a lot of interest in little girls who are related to neighboring darklords and I'm sure that angle will develop through play.
And I guess that's the meat of this post. To me, the actions of the players should have great opportunity to significantly shape the development of the campaign. Without their involvement, all of the canon events will occur just as written but it's important to me to give them at least something of an opportunity to influence the majority of these occurances. They made a mess in Har'Akir and it will have consequences. Strahd is somehow aware of the intrigue in the works between Gundarak and Kartakass and his agenda regarding it is a subtle one involving the players. Most likely, they will have the adventure as intended but they may surprise me and I like that.
I see Sheriff Von Zarovich is a peripheral character but I really don't see anything wrong with his basic concept. A sheriff is by no means out of place in a land like Barovia. Strahd needs someone to maintain the peace, especially during the day or other periods of his dormancy. As times get darker, he may level up into the incarnation presented in Champions of Darkness. The players may confront or assist him before, during, or after this process. They may beat him to some of his equipment. They may be the ones responsible for the slaughter of the nameless Barovian village and pin it on the sheriff in the popular interpretation. Hell, even when I was first reading that business it seemed to me that that rumor was simply untrue period and had been intentionally started by someone, probably Strahd, as a way to reinforce the sheriff's authority through fear. Sure, as presented, the sheriff is a horrifying figure but like any major character in this campaign setting I'm sure he's had some horrifying experiences that resulted in him becoming like that. My players, depending on their whims and abilities and luck, may witness first hand this transformation, they may put a stop to it before he fully crystalizes, they may come back years later and discover him transformed into this monster, or they may never see him again after a swarm of goblyns eat his face out of story. I don't know yet, it all depends on the actions of my players because that's how my campaign works.
The only fundamental problem I see with him is that it seems to me any sheriff's alignment should be lawful. His background suggests he just popped up out of nowhere but I'm choosing to ignore that. It's my perogative as dungeon master and it's all of yours as well. These books are just source material to use for the enjoyment of the players. Crucify me if you want but I will consider myself a martyr to the old school of D&D.
About the Sheriff: despite my attempts at justifying him, I actually like John's idea the best. He gets out of hand, Strahd realises him and his cronnies were a mistake (even Strahd makes mistakes) and he makes an example of them......no more problem. Make it into an adventure, get the players involved. Like someone said, we never get to kill darklords, so let us kill someother powerful minions.
But I still think some people were missing some of my points about this guy. (number one being that I never liked him)
Strahd's busy looking for Tatyana.
He has an uprising that is getting out of hand, but he is too busy to solve it.
He gives his henchman free reign to solve the problem and comes back to it later (perhaps being unhappy with the way it was solved)
The Sheriff does not go after Vistani, but making the sale of the potion illegal, he can solve too problems........one is try to make sure Tatyana cannot escape Barovia (too late)
Two, keep Gundarite rebels from freely crossing the border......this is not an unreasonable thing to do......as the Vistani potion allows someopne to leave even if Strahd has closed the borders..........doing this does not have to be permanent.......Barovias commerce will be injured but he can always allow trading the potion to begin again later.....if Barovian citizens are hurt in the process, what does Strahd care......he just wants Tatyana and he just wants to be in control of his domain.......we know he can not stand disobediance....and he will follow his passions despite the consequences (otherwise he wouldn't be a vampire or a darkord).
Anyway, my proposal is to justify why he came into power, and then since noone (including me) like him, lets allow our good players to put him (and us) out of our misery.
After reading through this (somewhat hostile) thread, I want to take a quick minute to stick up for Jackie and Nicky.
Back in 2002, when I was living in Atlanta - home of DragonCon - I had the express priviledge of playing a Ravenloft game session run by these two, and it was fantastic. In fact, following the session, I received a copy of the RLCS autographed by the two of them, and to this day, it sits in a safe place.
Excellent roleplayers, both; excellent DMs, both. Wonderfully creative minds, and individuals who put a boatload of blood, sweat, and tears into the spooky little neighborhood we all call the Demiplane of Dread. They - and all the developers, authors, artists, editors, and everyone else responsible for this fantastic game world - deserve thanks from us all. Even if you aren't a big fan of the particular contributions made by specific individuals, they all still are responsible for adding just a touch more flavor to Ravenloft.
I no longer reside in Atlanta - I'm now in Indiana - but should I ever manage to wander back down there, I sure hope that the occasion will again arise in which I will have opportunity to sit at such a well-run table with such a (pair of) involved and devoted DM(s).
Oh, and I kicked the Sheriff in the nards. Personally, and in the real world.
But I did not kick the deputy.
(Note that, IMC, this hibernation happened in the 15 years prior to 740, not earlier as John's timeline would have it. Firstly, I figured that if Van Richten had already read Strahd's journal before writing the VRGtV, he'd have made as least *some* mention of its contents in his own publication, rather than citing some long-dead bard's [more] propagandized account of the Barovian darklord's fall from grace. And secondly, the fact that Van Richten _never went back_ to Strahd's castle to destroy the Count -- something that's conclusively proven by how the good doctor didn't die there
-- is hard to explain, given his dedication to his work ... unless Strahd's emergance from hibernation had become self-evident, in the year after VR's visit, because of the vampire's involvement in the Great Upheaval and subsequant invasion of Gundar's old turf. The fact Strahd *didn't* pro-actively intervene in the Hexad's unfolding, to disrupt Azalin's schemes, also makes a lot more sense if he'd been hibernating up until early 740: he was unconscious when the prophecy began to come true, so missed his chance to head things off, *before* the fifth and sixth modules' events.)Think about it: Strahd's got Barovia so cowed, and his living relations are so brainwashed to his service, that his disappearing into hibernation -- most likely, under the public pretense that "Strahd X" was ailing and "Strahd XI", remaining in seclusion as he prepared to assume his father's title -- would have created an apparent power-vacuum in his domain. A brutal thug from a more heavy-handed realm, perhaps an expatriate Gundarakite displaced by his former Duke's demise in 736, siezes the opportunity to barge into the "weakened" Count's realm and muscle his way into power, falsely claiming Strahd's name and authority as an intimidation-tactic over Barovia's inhabitants. Trained as the Count's compliant lapdogs for generations, the living Von Zaroviches have long had such personal initiative bred out of them; Strahd's killed off any who might dare act outside his authority, so they don't know how to deal with such a blatant usurper if they can't turn to their patriarch for advice. A war of threats and disinformation breaks out, as the Sheriff and the true Von Zaroviches hunt each other down and spread ever-more-frightening tales of each others' atrocities. As the choking fog around the village of Barovia remained active during Strahd's hibernation [as per "I, Strahd"], the Sheriff declares possession of the potion that allows passage through this barrier to be illegal ... simply as an excuse to *sieze* any such potions he and his "Ebon Gargoyles" (really just bandit riffraff, despite the rumors they and their enemies are spreading) might come across, for their own use. Declaring worship of the Morninglord to be "illegal" is simply another way for the Sheriff to prevent Barovians from gathering in large groups -- a breeding-ground for sedition, as this unsubtle foreigner sees it -- and of denying them hope as he strives to browbeat them into submission.
Eventually, Strahd awakens, realizes what's been happening in his realm, and throws a world class hissy-fit, slaughtering the Sheriff and his men single-handedly. If, indeed, the "Sheriff" was a Gundarakite, the Count now has a far more personal reason to invade the slain Duke's former territory and to oppress its inhabitants, above and beyond any nostalgic urge to get to play warlord after so many centuries. If the Sheriff makes any appearance IMC, it'd be in fireside stories about the "usurper" who'd run roughshod over Barovia for a few years, just prior to the Great Upheaval ... or perhaps, if I ever need a "dumb brick" powerhouse-foe for a Barovian adventure, in the form of an enslaved undead creature (low-level death knight or similar), which is what Strahd turned the upstart brute into *after* killing him, as an eternal punishment for daring to covet what's his.