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Fear and fear

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
baron_the_curse
Oct 31, 2004 14:10:18 All right, bear with me a moment, allow me to describe to you what happened in my last Dragonlance game.

While exploring the ruins of ancient Irda site near Icereach that was converted into a temple of Zeboim a party member plunges into a deep underground lake. Soon he is face-to-face with an immense Aboleth in its blackish, watery domain. While I describe the terror the character feels underneath the gaze of this Lovecraftian horror I am stop by the player who explains to me the affects of his Greater, Heroism spell. I pointed out that the spell gives protection against magical Fear, not natural emotions. The fear I described did not come with any game mechanic hindrances. However, the player stilled argued his immune to all fear.

I don’t know why it was now that I realized that D&D has never had a system, save the Horror Checks in Ravenloft, to handle natural fear. D&D is a heroic game so I’m proposing the use of Horror Checks when a hobgoblin threatens to gut a player character but when players argue against such logic as being afraid in the presence of an aboleth that’s the Chosen leader of a Zeboim cult I get tempted.

How do you folks think natural fear should be handle in the face of a protective spell that shields you from magical Fear? Would a commoner protected under Greater, Heroism not fear a Dragon Overlord because now it’s Frightful Presence has no affect on him? Or would he still wisely fear the dragon and beg for his life? And what about regular people we consider just bad-asses, say like Special Ops, who will tell you there is always a lingering fear in them in any situation they may loose their life, because only a fool that doesn’t know what danger is would not be afraid. I’m sure a brave Rose Knight would respect and fear a Dragon Overlord, but his immunity to fear would keep the fear from disabling his fighting abilities. At least that’s how I view it. What do you folks think?
#2
cam_banks
Oct 31, 2004 14:23:46 Fear can be felt but not have any actual effects. Kender know this, as they can tell when they're probably supposed to be scared of something ("my legs feel wobbly!") but never suffer any ill effect from it.

Spells or effects that prevent the character from being affected by fear accomplish this very thing - allowing the character to act, behave and continue to press on without being shaken, panicked or frightened. Greater heroism protects the character from all fear effects, not just magical ones (in fact, it doesn't even refer to magic), because the whole point of the spell is that the character is filled with bravery and courage beyond what he would normally have. In this case, there's no difference between "natural" fear and magical fear.

You can make a case for a creature that's immune to or protected from mind-affecting spells and effects to still register fear, but really you're talking about whether the target of horror and fear is reducing the character's ability to act, or not. If it does, then anything which shields the character from that effect will do so.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
baron_the_curse
Oct 31, 2004 14:38:28 I'm not suggestion natural fear should give hindrances within the game. If fact I pointed that out above. I’m not penalizing my players. Greater, Heroism is what allow the player to face an aboleth in it’s own battleground without panicking. The spell does say that is wards against fear effects. Since there are no fear rules in the Player’s Handbook or Dungeon Master’s Guide, I think it’s save to assume fear effects originate from spells, spell-like abilities, Psionics, Extraordinary, and Supernatural abilities. Greater, Heroism will probably give a sense of fearlessness though, but I’m trying to go beyond that spell.
#4
cam_banks
Oct 31, 2004 15:25:30 It's your job as a DM to describe the situation as well as you can, to give the impression that the aboleth (or whatever) is dangerous, alien, or the kind of thing that gives lesser mortals nightmares. It isn't your job to tell the player that he feels terrorized by it, especially not when the character's being bolstered by a spell (ike greater heroism - note, no comma) that gives him magical confidence and courage.

The players should have control over how their characters react to anything you have in the game. You can certainly suggest to them that their opposition is scary, but if they don't want their characters to think so you just need to deal with it.

Many people roleplay out emotional reactions to things in games. Many don't. That's no fault of the rules, it's just a fact of roleplaying in general. If you really want the heroes to turn tail and run, and a powerful opponent isn't doing it, then break out the fear spell. At least that has a mechanical aspect to it which can be explained as unearthly or supernatural forces, and this gives the player an "out" if they're otherwise trying to stick to being courageous.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
baron_the_curse
Oct 31, 2004 15:55:14 Thank you for the grammar correction.

I completely agree players should have full control of their characters. In fact, I never liked published adventures that add character reactions in their descriptive text, and there are plenty that do, especially in D&D.

I never told anyone they feel terrorized. Someone that’s terrorized would likely run or cowered before their opponent. As a DM it is your job to describe certain reflexive emotions characters will likely do. An ear shattering explosion next to a character will probably have them leap and send their heart pounding. Being submerged into freezing black waters from out of nowhere to be faced by a terrible tentacle monstrosity will probably send a shiver down anyone’s spine, yet not hindered their ability to fight if they are seasoned adventurers. You said many players don’t play out such emotions. It’s a shame to think most gamers run impassive, bland characters then. I also didn’t intend for the players to run from the encounter. I never set up encounters with predetermined expectations and if they don’t come true I have to force the reaction. That’s just bad DMing.

Natural fear not address in the rules is not a failing in the system. Fear rules are better suited for Ravenloft in the d20 system. There are other systems that just have fear rules built in. In Silhouette characters without the Combat Sense ability tend to freeze in a gunfight and similar rules apply to other systems. I’m not sure if you understood what my point was. The reality is you’re going to get a lot of players who’ll sooner tell you their character stand unflinching and fearless in the face of a tyrant God than take the moment to describe realistic, fearful and conflicting emotions, as they try to summon the courage needed to face such an opponent. Tanis certainly feared Lord Soth without the aid of magic on Soth’s side. Sometimes the DM needs to step in a coax a player to be a better role-player. You do this sensitively and with good intentions. That is part of being a DM.
#6
ferratus
Oct 31, 2004 16:07:03 You could also buy Cthulu d20, which basically redesigns the D20 modern system from the ground up to work with horror games. D&D isn't really structured for it. Not only do you have spells to resist fear and give courage, but the whole concept of the rules is built from the foundation of "killing things and taking their stuff".

Probably the reason I never "got" Ravenloft.
#7
ferratus
Oct 31, 2004 16:14:41
The reality is you’re going to get a lot of players who’ll sooner tell you their character stand unflinching and fearless in the face of a tyrant God than take the moment to describe realistic, fearful and conflicting emotions, as they try to summon the courage needed to face such an opponent.

That's their choice though. Some players are more concerned with the epic rather than the realistic. If their character concept has them being unfrightened by the worst calamities then that is the character. It doesn't matter if they stumble upon Takhisis, Wee Jas and Shar reading Cosmo in the throes of menopause, hopped up on uppers.

Besides we are talking about adventurers here. It is hard to be shaken in a lifestyle where you see all sorts of horrors every month or so. Pretty soon even the most niave and cowardly adventurer (if he survives) will simply do a quick calculation as to whether he can beat his latest opponent.

Heroes are usually truly scared only when they know they cannot defeat their current opponent.
#8
baron_the_curse
Oct 31, 2004 17:44:05
You could also buy Cthulu d20, which basically redesigns the D20 modern system from the ground up to work with horror games. D&D isn't really structured for it. Not only do you have spells to resist fear and give courage, but the whole concept of the rules is built from the foundation of "killing things and taking their stuff".

Probably the reason I never "got" Ravenloft.

That's an excellent book. I got it the day it came out.
#9
zombiegleemax
Nov 01, 2004 21:28:59 Maybe the characters are all panzaic. Panzaism is an insanity where the wierd, odd, and unusual seem perfectly normal to you. I played a panzaic modern-day samurai in a horror d20 Modern game, and let me tell you, it was *FUN*! When we were attacked by flesh-eating zombies, I got upset that they dented my car. I was attacked by a gunman, and cut off his head, and then tried to give his head to the person I was working for. That was a great conversation:

Me: Hey, Ashley, get in here! I've got something for you!
Ashley: Really? What is i-AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I was in no way phased by zombies draging themselves out of the grave, people turning into horrible monsters, people dissolving, etc. The only time I ever got emotional about something was when something happened to my car, or my katana.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 baron_the_curse Oct 31, 2004 14:10:18	All right, bear with me a moment, allow me to describe to you what happened in my last Dragonlance game. While exploring the ruins of ancient Irda site near Icereach that was converted into a temple of Zeboim a party member plunges into a deep underground lake. Soon he is face-to-face with an immense Aboleth in its blackish, watery domain. While I describe the terror the character feels underneath the gaze of this Lovecraftian horror I am stop by the player who explains to me the affects of his Greater, Heroism spell. I pointed out that the spell gives protection against magical Fear, not natural emotions. The fear I described did not come with any game mechanic hindrances. However, the player stilled argued his immune to all fear. I don’t know why it was now that I realized that D&D has never had a system, save the Horror Checks in Ravenloft, to handle natural fear. D&D is a heroic game so I’m proposing the use of Horror Checks when a hobgoblin threatens to gut a player character but when players argue against such logic as being afraid in the presence of an aboleth that’s the Chosen leader of a Zeboim cult I get tempted. How do you folks think natural fear should be handle in the face of a protective spell that shields you from magical Fear? Would a commoner protected under Greater, Heroism not fear a Dragon Overlord because now it’s Frightful Presence has no affect on him? Or would he still wisely fear the dragon and beg for his life? And what about regular people we consider just bad-asses, say like Special Ops, who will tell you there is always a lingering fear in them in any situation they may loose their life, because only a fool that doesn’t know what danger is would not be afraid. I’m sure a brave Rose Knight would respect and fear a Dragon Overlord, but his immunity to fear would keep the fear from disabling his fighting abilities. At least that’s how I view it. What do you folks think?
#2 cam_banks Oct 31, 2004 14:23:46	Fear can be felt but not have any actual effects. Kender know this, as they can tell when they're probably supposed to be scared of something ("my legs feel wobbly!") but never suffer any ill effect from it. Spells or effects that prevent the character from being affected by fear accomplish this very thing - allowing the character to act, behave and continue to press on without being shaken, panicked or frightened. Greater heroism protects the character from all fear effects, not just magical ones (in fact, it doesn't even refer to magic), because the whole point of the spell is that the character is filled with bravery and courage beyond what he would normally have. In this case, there's no difference between "natural" fear and magical fear. You can make a case for a creature that's immune to or protected from mind-affecting spells and effects to still register fear, but really you're talking about whether the target of horror and fear is reducing the character's ability to act, or not. If it does, then anything which shields the character from that effect will do so. Cheers, Cam
#3 baron_the_curse Oct 31, 2004 14:38:28	I'm not suggestion natural fear should give hindrances within the game. If fact I pointed that out above. I’m not penalizing my players. Greater, Heroism is what allow the player to face an aboleth in it’s own battleground without panicking. The spell does say that is wards against fear effects. Since there are no fear rules in the Player’s Handbook or Dungeon Master’s Guide, I think it’s save to assume fear effects originate from spells, spell-like abilities, Psionics, Extraordinary, and Supernatural abilities. Greater, Heroism will probably give a sense of fearlessness though, but I’m trying to go beyond that spell.
#4 cam_banks Oct 31, 2004 15:25:30	It's your job as a DM to describe the situation as well as you can, to give the impression that the aboleth (or whatever) is dangerous, alien, or the kind of thing that gives lesser mortals nightmares. It isn't your job to tell the player that he feels terrorized by it, especially not when the character's being bolstered by a spell (ike greater heroism - note, no comma) that gives him magical confidence and courage. The players should have control over how their characters react to anything you have in the game. You can certainly suggest to them that their opposition is scary, but if they don't want their characters to think so you just need to deal with it. Many people roleplay out emotional reactions to things in games. Many don't. That's no fault of the rules, it's just a fact of roleplaying in general. If you really want the heroes to turn tail and run, and a powerful opponent isn't doing it, then break out the fear spell. At least that has a mechanical aspect to it which can be explained as unearthly or supernatural forces, and this gives the player an "out" if they're otherwise trying to stick to being courageous. Cheers, Cam
#5 baron_the_curse Oct 31, 2004 15:55:14	Thank you for the grammar correction. I completely agree players should have full control of their characters. In fact, I never liked published adventures that add character reactions in their descriptive text, and there are plenty that do, especially in D&D. I never told anyone they feel terrorized. Someone that’s terrorized would likely run or cowered before their opponent. As a DM it is your job to describe certain reflexive emotions characters will likely do. An ear shattering explosion next to a character will probably have them leap and send their heart pounding. Being submerged into freezing black waters from out of nowhere to be faced by a terrible tentacle monstrosity will probably send a shiver down anyone’s spine, yet not hindered their ability to fight if they are seasoned adventurers. You said many players don’t play out such emotions. It’s a shame to think most gamers run impassive, bland characters then. I also didn’t intend for the players to run from the encounter. I never set up encounters with predetermined expectations and if they don’t come true I have to force the reaction. That’s just bad DMing. Natural fear not address in the rules is not a failing in the system. Fear rules are better suited for Ravenloft in the d20 system. There are other systems that just have fear rules built in. In Silhouette characters without the Combat Sense ability tend to freeze in a gunfight and similar rules apply to other systems. I’m not sure if you understood what my point was. The reality is you’re going to get a lot of players who’ll sooner tell you their character stand unflinching and fearless in the face of a tyrant God than take the moment to describe realistic, fearful and conflicting emotions, as they try to summon the courage needed to face such an opponent. Tanis certainly feared Lord Soth without the aid of magic on Soth’s side. Sometimes the DM needs to step in a coax a player to be a better role-player. You do this sensitively and with good intentions. That is part of being a DM.
#6 ferratus Oct 31, 2004 16:07:03	You could also buy Cthulu d20, which basically redesigns the D20 modern system from the ground up to work with horror games. D&D isn't really structured for it. Not only do you have spells to resist fear and give courage, but the whole concept of the rules is built from the foundation of "killing things and taking their stuff". Probably the reason I never "got" Ravenloft.
#7 ferratus Oct 31, 2004 16:14:41	The reality is you’re going to get a lot of players who’ll sooner tell you their character stand unflinching and fearless in the face of a tyrant God than take the moment to describe realistic, fearful and conflicting emotions, as they try to summon the courage needed to face such an opponent. That's their choice though. Some players are more concerned with the epic rather than the realistic. If their character concept has them being unfrightened by the worst calamities then that is the character. It doesn't matter if they stumble upon Takhisis, Wee Jas and Shar reading Cosmo in the throes of menopause, hopped up on uppers. Besides we are talking about adventurers here. It is hard to be shaken in a lifestyle where you see all sorts of horrors every month or so. Pretty soon even the most niave and cowardly adventurer (if he survives) will simply do a quick calculation as to whether he can beat his latest opponent. Heroes are usually truly scared only when they know they cannot defeat their current opponent.
#8 baron_the_curse Oct 31, 2004 17:44:05	You could also buy Cthulu d20, which basically redesigns the D20 modern system from the ground up to work with horror games. D&D isn't really structured for it. Not only do you have spells to resist fear and give courage, but the whole concept of the rules is built from the foundation of "killing things and taking their stuff". Probably the reason I never "got" Ravenloft. That's an excellent book. I got it the day it came out.
#9 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2004 21:28:59	Maybe the characters are all panzaic. Panzaism is an insanity where the wierd, odd, and unusual seem perfectly normal to you. I played a panzaic modern-day samurai in a horror d20 Modern game, and let me tell you, it was FUN! When we were attacked by flesh-eating zombies, I got upset that they dented my car. I was attacked by a gunman, and cut off his head, and then tried to give his head to the person I was working for. That was a great conversation: Me: Hey, Ashley, get in here! I've got something for you! Ashley: Really? What is i-AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!! I was in no way phased by zombies draging themselves out of the grave, people turning into horrible monsters, people dissolving, etc. The only time I ever got emotional about something was when something happened to my car, or my katana.