In the KoD campaign I'm running the party has acquired the Blade of Betrayal. The Kapak rogue ended up becoming dominated by the Blade and was forced to gut the cleric/KoS in the party during the fight with the barbazu in the Shattered Temple (sick fight!). Luckily the KoS survived (barely).
The party is throwing the idea around that the Blade of Betrayal maybe swayed towards the side of good. My question is could an evil intelligent weapon have a change in its beliefs and change in alignment? I know it wouldn't be a over night revelation but thru good role playing do you think the Blade could be swayed to become a force for goodness?
Any insight is appreciated.
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I would say "no", if the PCs can just alter the blade by talking to it that would make the blade seem pretty weak. IMO the blade is able to control PCs by influencing them through magic(Not just lip game.). I am using the same hook in my campaign, although the PCs have not found the blade yet.
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I wouldn't let the Blade become good over just one conversation. I think it would be a great role playing opportunity which would play out thru most of the KoD into SoS. By some good role playing, and maybe a ton of high DC diplomacy checks, the Blade may or could at the very least be swayed to a neutral out look.
Think along the lines of Frodo and Gollum during LoTR. At one point Gollum was trying to become good due to Frodo's efforts. Granted Gollum didn't stay good, but you get the general idea
I wouldn't let the Blade become good over just one conversation. I think it would be a great role playing opportunity which would play out thru most of the KoD into SoS. By some good role playing, and maybe a ton of high DC diplomacy checks, the Blade may or could at the very least be swayed to a neutral out look.
Think along the lines of Frodo and Gollum during LoTR. At one point Gollum was trying to become good due to Frodo's efforts. Granted Gollum didn't stay good, but you get the general idea
Gollum was a person, not an object. That was a good example, but to convey what I am thinking, think along the lines of Frodo and the ring. Frodo could not change the ring, because it was thoroughly corrupted. This blade has the essence of The Betrayer within, therefore I would say it is thoroughly evil. IMO the blade is irreversibly evil. This does not mean, however that you cannot have the players think that they can change the blade.
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Gollum was a person, not an object. That was a good example, but to convey what I am thinking, think along the lines of Frodo and the ring. Frodo could not change the ring, because it was thoroughly corrupted. This blade has the essence of The Betrayer within, therefore I would say it is thoroughly evil. IMO the blade is irreversibly evil. This does not mean, however that you cannot have the players think that they can change the blade.
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True, it is an object but its a highly intelligent Blade and is in no way in the catagory of The One Ring. The Ring would be a major artifact where the Blade is still just a magic weapon even though intelligent and formidable one.
True, it is an object but its a highly intelligent Blade and is in no way in the catagory of The One Ring. The Ring would be a major artifact where the Blade is still just a magic weapon even though intelligent and formidable one.
The blade has more in common with the one ring(Infused with the essence of an evil being, corrupts others, magical item, etc.) than with Gollum(Led by the nose by the ring, etc.). Then again, it is your campaign(You have the reins.), if you want to have the Blade of Betrayal act like Gollum go right ahead.
In my campaigns when I deal with items that have the ability to change the actions and thus alignments of PCs I never consider them "just another magical item." The Blade of Betrayal is unique in my campaign for some good reasons, one of which is the fact that it is infused with the evil essence of one of the PCs major antagonists(The Betrayer.).
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The blade has more in common with the one ring(Infused with the essence of an evil being, corrupts others, magical item, etc.) than with Gollum(Led by the nose by the ring, etc.). Then again, it is your campaign(You have the reins.), if you want to have the Blade of Betrayal act like Gollum go right ahead.
In my campaigns when I deal with items that have the ability to change the actions and thus alignments of PCs I never consider them "just another magical item."
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Points well taken but let me clear up 2 things.
First, I never said that I was going to make the Blade act like Gollum. I used it as an example to illustrate that an evil being (which the Blade is) could possibly be swayed to the side of good by the efforts of another.
Second, I didn't say the Blade was just another magic item but its just a non artifact magic item that happens to have a intelligence not an artifact like the One Ring from LoTR. Thats like comparing the Sword of Kas (Greyhawk artifact) to a intelligent long sword +4 with a special purpose. Big difference in the power level between the 2.
I also wanted to point out a line in the 3.5 SRD under the heading of Intelligent Items. " Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. " This would indicate to me that the Blade could be rationally conversed with. Not easily mind you but the Blade could be brought to see the errors in its ways.
I also wanted to point out a line in the 3.5 SRD under the heading of Intelligent Items. " Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. " This would indicate to me that the Blade could be rationally conversed with. Not easily mind you but the Blade could be brought to see the errors in its ways.
Redemption is a big theme of Dragonlance. I don't think you'd be at all wrong to bring up this as an ongoing plot. I do think that some kind of symbolic redemption as well as just having the dagger get treated nicely by the heroes is in order. Something on a spiritual or metaphysical level. It'd be interesting, for example, if the heroes and the dagger were drawn into something akin to the Nightmare of Silvanesti, a dreamscape in which the dagger takes human form and comes to understand that it has a choice between good and evil.
Cheers,
Cam
Redemption is a big theme of Dragonlance. I don't think you'd be at all wrong to bring up this as an ongoing plot. I do think that some kind of symbolic redemption as well as just having the dagger get treated nicely by the heroes is in order. Something on a spiritual or metaphysical level. It'd be interesting, for example, if the heroes and the dagger were drawn into something akin to the Nightmare of Silvanesti, a dreamscape in which the dagger takes human form and comes to understand that it has a choice between good and evil.
Cheers,
Cam
I agree. If the Blade was made to see that it had a choice to be evil (or good) and that it doesn't have to be just because it was created for an evil purpose. Very similar to the draconians.
The 2 things that convince me that the blade should not be redeemed are:
1- it was bestowed/created with the direct blessing of Chemosh, an evil deity, and is also comprised of some of the soul of the betrayer himself who thoroughly gave himself over to Chemosh and utter evil. If it was just the betrayer's influence, I would say there might be a slim chance of redemption, but it's also got Chemosh's evil will guiding it. That's a BIG one to overcome. Only by divine intervention would I even consider the blade being redeemable, and again, it would need to be profound, not just a conscious decision to one day 'go good', or to be changed on a whim.
2- redeeming it would contradict it's purpose in it's creation, and thereby would seriously screw with the weapon IMO. A weapon that gains sentience when given magic properties doesn't necessarily have an alignment tied to it's purpose, so you could theoretically reason with it. The blade of betrayal was given sentience by 2 evil beings, for the express purpose of committing evil acts. IF you redeemed it, what would happen then? Would the blade also give up it's magical properties against good aligned characters? Would it's name change? I just don't think this thing can be redeemed which is my opinion, but to each their own.
1- it was bestowed/created with the direct blessing of Chemosh, an evil deity, and is also comprised of some of the soul of the betrayer himself who thoroughly gave himself over to Chemosh and utter evil. If it was just the betrayer's influence, I would say there might be a slim chance of redemption, but it's also got Chemosh's evil will guiding it. That's a BIG one to overcome. Only by divine intervention would I even consider the blade being redeemable, and again, it would need to be profound, not just a conscious decision to one day 'go good', or to be changed on a whim.
Just like the draconians were created with the magic and the blessing of two dark gods? We know how that turned out. Before anyone states they became good due to being created out of metallic dragon eggs let me remind you of two things. First, the Dragon Armies also made noble draconians out of chromatic eggs and they still ended up being good. Second, the Betrayer was once a man of good. Enough so that he was a cleric of god of light at one time. The Blade may have picked up a portion of that trait as well.
redeeming it would contradict it's purpose in it's creation, and thereby would seriously screw with the weapon IMO. A weapon that gains sentience when given magic properties doesn't necessarily have an alignment tied to it's purpose, so you could theoretically reason with it. The blade of betrayal was given sentience by 2 evil beings, for the express purpose of committing evil acts.
Most of what I said above about draconians could be applied to this as well. I'd also like to point out that the Blade only has an ego of 14. That isn't that incredibly high compared to what it could be. So its far from being evil incarnate or the devil himself.
IF you redeemed it, what would happen then? Would the blade also give up it's magical properties against good aligned characters? Would it's name change?
What happens to a palindin when he becomes a blackguard? Their powers pretty much take on the opposite descriptor right? The Blade's purpose could change to hating evil clerics if it became good or to all clerics in general if it took a neutral out look.
I just don't think this thing can be redeemed which is my opinion, but to each their own.
And thats fine. I appreciate you on sharing it
I just wanted it understood that I never stated that the Blade could easily be swayed from being evil, just that maybe it could be done thru incredible role playing over a long period and that it would be a great underlying story to the campaign. At first I wasn't sure if I was going to go this route, but now I think I'll let the players attempt it. I also hope they meet with great success. It sure will be fun for me in the interim
The campaign should be more interesting due to it to say the least.Just like the draconians were created with the magic and the blessing of two dark gods? We know how that turned out.
You mean, they were used as cannon fodder, and the very people who were supposed to be their 'friends' and even those that created them, treated them as so far below them, that the draconians were treated with contempt. Slaves were often treated better than the draconians. They had no friends in life, so they started a village, and are now neutral. Mostly IMO, because they couldn't fully adopt an purely evil life because it exposed them to mistreatment and abuse, and possibly worse from the forces of good (because of their past). The blade of betrayal was used by it's creator, and the player characters only, so it doesn't have the same extenuating circumstances that the draconians had (ie it hasn't been misused, abused, or forced to question it's purpose or 'lot in life'.)
Before anyone states they became good due to being created out of metallic dragon eggs let me remind you of two things. First, the Dragon Armies also made noble draconians out of chromatic eggs and they still ended up being good.
They have a tendency toward good. They can be neutral or even evil every bit as much as a traditional draconian can be neutral or good as well. I just don't think comparing draconians to magical weapons from an evil god and his devout follower is a good comparison. The alignment of the blade of betrayal is intrinsic to it's purpose. The draconians were created by evil, but who and what they are, are not tied to their alignment. Lets look a little deeper at draconians though. (and taking into consideration the retcon that says abishai were NOT used in their creation). Draconians hatch, and are raised and trained from hatchlings to be bloodthirsty killers for the forces of evil. They still have free will, and what they are is not tied to their alignment. They really aren't any more evil than humans are, it's just all the first generation of them knew.
Second, the Betrayer was once a man of good. Enough so that he was a cleric of god of light at one time. The Blade may have picked up a portion of that trait as well.
Except that the betrayer, by the time he created the blade, had forsaken the good part of his soul. He had left Mishakal because he was dying and she would do nothing for him, so he himself felt betrayed. He gave himself over so fully to Chemosh, that he killed all of his friends without hesitation or remorse, defiled a shrine to the gods of good, and knowingly and willfully gave his soul over to evil. To use his good side (which I believe died by the time the blade was created) as an 'in' to redeeming the blade is not a good decision IMO.
Most of what I said above about draconians could be applied to this as well. I'd also like to point out that the Blade only has an ego of 14. That isn't that incredibly high compared to what it could be. So its far from being evil incarnate or the devil himself.
It's enough to try and compell good aligned characters to try and kill other good aligned characters. That's enough in my book. And that again, is it's function. To betray. If you wanted, a REALLY interesting twist IMO, would be to have the blade make it's wielder believe it was converting, then compel the wielder at a truly inopportune moment, thereby betraying the wielder.
And thats fine. I appreciate you on sharing it
I just wanted it understood that I never stated that the Blade could easily be swayed from being evil, just that maybe it could be done thru incredible role playing over a long period and that it would be a great underlying story to the campaign. At first I wasn't sure if I was going to go this route, but now I think I'll let the players attempt it. I also hope they meet with great success. It sure will be fun for me in the interim
No offense, but from the way your defending your decision to redeem the blade, and refute my opinions, it doesn't look like you were really gathering opinions, rather trying to validate your decision to redeem the blade anyway, and try to find people to support your idea. Meh, whatever. Debates are always interesting either way.
Huzzah!You mean, they were used as cannon fodder, and the very people who were supposed to be their 'friends' and even those that created them, treated them as so far below them, that the draconians were treated with contempt. Slaves were often treated better than the draconians. They had no friends in life, so they started a village, and are now neutral. Mostly IMO, because they couldn't fully adopt an purely evil life because it exposed them to mistreatment and abuse, and possibly worse from the forces of good (because of their past). The blade of betrayal was used by it's creator, and the player characters only, so it doesn't have the same extenuating circumstances that the draconians had (ie it hasn't been misused, abused, or forced to question it's purpose or 'lot in life'.)
Good points, but as you pointed out, The Blade was and has only been used twice since its creation, and then it was abandoned for several centuries. What else has it known or experienced other than the cruelness and evilness of the Betrayer? If the PC's could show it that there other choices and paths beyond evil in the world it could make a conscious decision to change (or not change) its ways IMO. However it would take a great deal in order to do so.
They still have free will, and what they are is not tied to their alignment. They really aren't any more evil than humans are, it's just all the first generation of them knew.
Doesn't the Blade have free will as well? Isn't that what makes it an "intelligent" weapon rather than a run of the mill magic one?
Except that the betrayer, by the time he created the blade, had forsaken the good part of his soul. He had left Mishakal because he was dying and she would do nothing for him, so he himself felt betrayed. He gave himself over so fully to Chemosh, that he killed all of his friends without hesitation or remorse, defiled a shrine to the gods of good, and knowingly and willfully gave his soul over to evil. To use his good side (which I believe died by the time the blade was created) as an 'in' to redeeming the blade is not a good decision IMO
You do have a good point here. I was thinking along the Darth Vader lines with this one, but I don't think the Betrayer will be changing to "the good side of the force" anytime soon. I'll drop this angle.
It's enough to try and compel good aligned characters to try and kill other good aligned characters. That's enough in my book. And that again, is it's function. To betray. If you wanted, a REALLY interesting twist IMO, would be to have the blade make it's wielder believe it was converting, then compel the wielder at a truly inopportune moment, thereby betraying the wielder.
I realize that its function is/was to kill good aligned clerics but as I stated above its all that it has known since its creation and its brief exposure to other sentient beings. Its a thinking feeling being even though it happens to be in the form of a dagger. It had no choice in who and how it was created. Look at it this way. If you born to and raised to be an assassin but later in life were captured by a good culture where you were exposed to things and realized there was more to life than just killing. Wouldn't that warrant a re-evaluation of your beliefs?
No offense, but from the way your defending your decision to redeem the blade, and refute my opinions, it doesn't look like you were really gathering opinions, rather trying to validate your decision to redeem the blade anyway, and try to find people to support your idea. Meh, whatever. Debates are always interesting either way. Huzzah!
At first I wanted people's opinions and then realized due to the opinions given thus far there really wasn't any strong or concrete reason as to why the Blade couldn't change. Now I'm just trying to give examples as to why it could happen. I also think I have the right to defend the idea as well. Is that such a bad thing?
...and maybe a ton of high DC diplomacy checks,...
Diplomacy checks cannot alter(Change) the alignment of an intelligient magic item. The PCs must make a will save, against the ego score of the intelligient magic item, in order to dominate the item. Even so, the change is never permanent.
Points well taken but let me clear up 2 things.
First, I never said that I was going to make the Blade act like Gollum. I used it as an example to illustrate that an evil being (which the Blade is) could possibly be swayed to the side of good by the efforts of another.
The intelligient item can only be influenced by the PC making the diplomacy check(Look up Diplomacy in the skill section of the Player's Handbook.), it cannot be swayed to the side of good.
Again, when dealing with an intelligient magical item, such as the Blade of Betrayal, the method for persuading it to alter its path is by making a will save against the ego score of said item. Put simply, if the PCs alignment does not match the item's alignment, it is their will against the will of the weapon(The item's purpose is to defeat/slay good-aligned spellcasters.). Your PCs should be having issues with their alignment since they are willingly using a weapon they know is evil, not the other way around.
Second, I didn't say the Blade was just another magic item but its just a non artifact magic item that happens to have a intelligence not an artifact like the One Ring from LoTR. Thats like comparing the Sword of Kas (Greyhawk artifact) to a intelligent long sword +4 with a special purpose. Big difference in the power level between the 2.
Gollum is a creature enslaved by the ring, the one ring is an intelligient magical item infused with the essence of Sauron. The one ring has a purpose "to reunite itself with Sauron."
The Blade of Betrayal is an intelligient magical item infused with the personality of the Betrayer. The Blade of Betrayal also has a purpose "to defeat/slay good-aligned divine spellcasters."
The exact power level(Your statements about the sword of Kas, and whatever else you were talking about.) of said item is irrelevant, nowhere in my statement did I say the Blade of Betrayal was the one ring. I said it was similar, as proven above.
I also wanted to point out a line in the 3.5 SRD under the heading of Intelligent Items. " Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. " This would indicate to me that the Blade could be rationally conversed with. Not easily mind you but the Blade could be brought to see the errors in its ways.
Refer to pg. 268 of the DMG itself, it then follows up by referring you to the table for personality traits. It also refers you to a certain page that shows how Diplomacy checks can be used to influence NPC actions. Know this, it does not refer to alignment change, it refers to using diplomacy checks to alter the way one reacts to the PCs(Such as moving the NPC from being hostile to friendly.). Surely you did not think this referred to changing alignment, did you ? Read the rules for intelligient magical items.
No offense, but from the way your defending your decision to redeem the blade, and refute my opinions, it doesn't look like you were really gathering opinions, rather trying to validate your decision to redeem the blade anyway, and try to find people to support your idea. Meh, whatever. Debates are always interesting either way. Huzzah!
Indeed, even though the rules(For intelligient magical items) within the Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 is telling him he is wrong. His fanatical defense is what has brought me to the conclusion below...
Conclusion: You claim you were looking for opinions, but it seemed that before(The above response to frostdawn concerning this thread is a lie; your first few responses, were in support of the blade's alignment being shifted. You rejected anything that would show otherwise.) posters even thought to respond you had already made up your mind that the item can have it's alignment changed by the PCs. A word of advice, if you already had your mind made up it is better to not post under the false pretense of being undecided. As such, this shall be my last response on this subject.
*Adds Sysane to his ignore poster list*
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Conclusion: You claim you were looking for opinions, but it seemed that before posters even thought to respond you had already made up your mind that the item can have it's alignment changed by the PCs. A word of advice, if you already had your mind made up it is better to not post under the false pretense of being undecided. As such, this shall be my last response on this subject.
*Adds [b]Sysane[/i] to his ignore poster list*
This is ridiculous.
Most of us post with a sense of what we'd like to do, and like to engage in discussion with others about a topic. It doesn't make Sysane some kind of false pretender if he already had a leaning towards it in the first place - he was probably looking for some more ideas about the subject. Responses like the one above are no help at all - he's probably better off being on your ignore list if you're going to slam him for this kind of thing.
Cheers,
Cam
Look at it this way. If you born to and raised to be an assassin but later in life were captured by a good culture where you were exposed to things and realized there was more to life than just killing. Wouldn't that warrant a re-evaluation of your beliefs?
I guess I have trouble believing a weapon, built, conceived, designed, and granted magic for solely evil purposes by none other than an evil god, and imbued with the evil of a nigh unredeemable soul makes it more than a case of it re-evaluating it's lot in 'life'. I guess I'm just stubborn that way. *shrugs*
At first I wanted people's opinions and then realized due to the opinions given thus far there really wasn't any strong or concrete reason as to why the Blade couldn't change. Now I'm just trying to give examples as to why it could happen. I also think I have the right to defend the idea as well. Is that such a bad thing?
And that is perfectly acceptable, and not something I ever argued. I gave my opinion, and you, point by point refuted it. I in turn defended my opinion. It just seems by the tone of your original post, you actually had this idea already figured out, and like I said earlier, just wanted to validate your decision by hearing from people who agreed with your idea. It didn't seem like you were open at all to an opinion that opposed the idea of redeeming the weapon.
Indeed, even though the rules(For intelligient magical items) within the Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 is telling him he is wrong....
So just because the rules don't cover it an evil NPC can never be redeemed by the efforts of the PCs?
Ah, the tunnel vision of rules lawyers. Its simply black and white with no gray. If doesn't have a specific rule in the pages of 3.5 it can't be done. You gotta love it! :D
And that is perfectly acceptable, and not something I ever argued. I gave my opinion, and you, point by point refuted it. I in turn defended my opinion. It just seems by the tone of your original post, you actually had this idea already figured out, and like I said earlier, just wanted to validate your decision by hearing from people who agreed with your idea. It didn't seem like you were open at all to an opinion that opposed the idea of redeeming the weapon.
I only refuted it to prove that there were other things to consider. My tone wasn't meant to be malicious in any way. I apologies if you have taken it as such. I was open to different views and can even see where your coming from with yours but thru them I saw that it wasn't impossible for the Blade to be redeemed just unlikely.
But if you think I started this thread to validate my idea, I vehemently deny that. It was thru it I came to a conclusion.
I only refuted it to prove that there were other things to consider. My tone wasn't meant to be malicious in any way. I apologies if you have taken it as such. I was open to different views and can even see where your coming from with yours but thru them I saw that it wasn't impossible for the Blade to be redeemed just unlikely.
But if you think I started this thread to validate my idea, I vehemently deny that. It was thru it I came to a conclusion.
Ahh, the tone of the written word was misinterpreted, and to that, all I can say is 'my bad'. One of the shortcomings of the written word, versus person to person I guess.
No need to apologize, I don't typically take discussions/debates like this personally, although I have a tendency to sound confrontational from time to time, and if that came across, for that I apologize. No harm, no foul? :D
In the interim, I guess we can agree to disagree...
I just found some interesting info in The Book of Exhalted Deeds. There is a section that goes into redeemption of evil beings and another that details the process of redeeming evil magic items. Its worth looking over if you have any doubts as to if its possible for evil turning to the side of good
That's interesting. As I mentioned earlier, most sentient magic items I would agree you might have a chance to redeem, though it would still be extremely difficult. I just don't think the blade of betrayal should or can be redeemed, but like I say, to each their own. In my campaign at least, it is out of the question.
That's interesting. As I mentioned earlier, most sentient magic items I would agree you might have a chance to redeem, though it would still be extremely difficult. I just don't think the blade of betrayal should or can be redeemed, but like I say, to each their own. In my campaign at least, it is out of the question.
I think I'm going to let the players give it a shot. If they do a poor job of it they will pay the most dire of consequences.
They have to go through such stages as dispelling the item's magical properties, then afterwards follow the same guidelines that one would follow if he/she were creating said magical item from scratch.
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