What's the 3.5 version like? Is White Wolf doing things differently than TSR did? Has it been influenced by White Wolf's Vampire game? Would you say playing in Ravenloft involves an in depth exploration of the nature of evil? If so, in what ways?
Thanks!
The main difference between 2E and 3.x is that in 3.x the PCs begin as natives of Ravenloft, rather than as outlanders looking for an exit. As a result, the PCs are more likely to try to ameliorate the evil that pervades the Land, rather than consider the place as a Hell they want to escape. While the PCs can't defeat the evil permanently, they can save lives, and as they gain levels, thwart the plans of the Darklords that rule each Domain.
As for your questions, the original design team for 3.0 were members of a group called the Kargatane, who were long time fans of the setting, rather than employees of White Wolf. The Kargatane brought their own viewpoint (one which developed over a series of netbooks they put out) to the setting. I highly recommend downloading their netbooks for 2E and 3.0, which can be found at www.kargatane.com .
Ravenloft does encourage an exploration of the nature of evil. At the heart of every domain is a Darklord, a man, woman, or something else, which committed an unspeakable crime (or series of crimes) and has been imprisoned by the mysterious Dark Powers. Supposedly these Darklords are beyond redemption, and the DPs dangle their heart's desires just out of reach from them. The PCs are in danger of succumbing to evil, by failing Dark Powers Checks for committing evil acts. By failing DP checks, the PCs slowly turn into monsters, such as vampires, werebeasts, or others. Also the PCs have to make saving throws to avoid fear, horror and madness from the things they encounter. For example in a standard D&D game no one bats an eye at zombies, but in RL the PCs may have to make horror checks at the rotting corpse walking towards them.
If you are interested in running a Ravenloft campaign, I recommend the Ravenloft Campaign Setting (as I mentioned above it is the superior work), Denizens of Dread (the monster book) and Van Richten's Arsenal (a collection of spells, feats and Prestige Classes for fighting monsters). If you have the money, I also recommend the Ravenloft Gazetteers, which detail the various Domains in detail. Also look for some of the older 2E material, which can be of great value, especially the Van Richten's Guide series.
Hope this helps.
Another couple of questions.
What's contained in the 3.5 DM book for Ravenloft?
What's supposed to count as "evil" in a Ravenloft campaign? Is it anything like what's described in the Book of Vile Darkness (I hope not).
What's contained in the 3.5 DM book for Ravenloft?
The RLDMG is essentially a guide to making your own Ravenloft campaign.It includes tips on setting the mood, using techniques of terror, making villains, pacing, and many other things. It's quite good, although some of the authors seem to think that the Dark Powers are evil, and that Ravenloft is a normal-magic world.
What's supposed to count as "evil" in a Ravenloft campaign? Is it anything like what's described in the Book of Vile Darkness (I hope not).
No, the evil in Ravenloft is far less gory and overt than the one presented in the BoVD, but is far more chilling because it is so intensly human and, in most cases, tragic. Ravenloft and its version of evil is based on the Gothic horror literary genre, preferring subtlety and recognition over gallons of blood and demon princes. The villains are not evil because they worship demon gods and like to have the more unpleasant parts of human anatomy on display in their homes, they are evil because of the choices they made, choices you cannot be entirely sure that you will never make - they are scary because they are reflections of us and what we might be.
I'll also elaborate on what the Professor said on the subject of Powers Checks. Whenever you consciously do evil in Ravenloft, there is a chance that the Dark Powers notice you. The larger the crime, the larger the chance. If they do notice you, they both reward and curse you in one blow. Typically, the curse and reward are linked with the crime. At first, the curse is relatively insignificant, but if you proceed down the path of corruption, the curses grow until they equal and, in fact, exceed the rewards. In the end, if you prove yourself evil beyond redemption (there is a chance that even a Darklord may be redeemed, but it has never happened yet), you become a Darklord and are granted your own domain, forever cursed to be imprisoned with your greatest desires dangling just out of reach.
I'll write more later when I get the time.
if you can, get the 3.0 version, aka the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, rather than the 3.5 Ravenloft Player's Handbook. They are identical, except for the addition of pointless rules, like forcing PCs to make powers checks for going up a level, and restricting magic by domain.
Let's stop the "RL PHB 3.5E bashing" please!
Yes, the power check for going up a level rule was close to moronic, but apart from that, it was a good book.
Magic level per domain was an intriguing idea, especially considering how Lamordia was depicted in Gazetteer 2. It would have been best if it had been introduced at the time of RL 3.0 but at least it provided DM with one more optional rule. After all, no one is forcing you to use it.
The update to the Witch-Hunter PrC was also quite good. The 3.5 version makes more sense.
I for one was quite happy with the 3.5 book, if only because it took care of the typos & errors of the 3.0.
I just crossed the power check per level rule and that was that.
Yes, the "power check for going up a level" rule was close to moronic
Now let me start off by saying I'm not really familiar with Ravenloft (which should be obvious given why I started this thread, but I wanted to be clear on that before proceeding), so I might be missing something. But this Dark Powers check for going up a level seems kinda interesting. Any time someone gains in power, the temptation to abuse that power might be there, and this looks like one way to represent that in game.
Again, I'm not sure that this is the purpose of a Dark Powers check for going up a level, but it sounds like one possible use.
Is it possible to refuse the benefit/curse, or does one have to take it?
Oh, another question. Malus, you said something about the authors of the RLDMG thinking that the Dark Powers are evil. Are you suggesting that they're actually beyond good/evil, and humans only call them evil because we disapprove of what they do given our own values? Kinda like someone who is indifferent to suffering. Those of us who care about whether people suffer may find such a person horrible for not caring, but it's not that they're "bad", they just have a different way of viewing (and valuing) things in the world. Is this what you have in mind?
Now let me start off by saying I'm not really familiar with Ravenloft (which should be obvious given why I started this thread, but I wanted to be clear on that before proceeding), so I might be missing something. But this Dark Powers check for going up a level seems kinda interesting. Any time someone gains in power, the temptation to abuse that power might be there, and this looks like one way to represent that in game.
The way you put it, it sounds good, right? Put like that, it actually sounds quite logical. But the problem is that a Powers check is the result of a choice, the reward and punishment for a conscious act of evil, and leveling up is not amongst those things, being a game mechanic that PCs are, obviously, ignorant of.
Is it possible to refuse the benefit/curse, or does one have to take it?
No, you can't refuse it - you accepted it by comitting the act of evil in the first place.
Oh, another question. Malus, you said something about the authors of the RLDMG thinking that the Dark Powers are evil. Are you suggesting that they're actually beyond good/evil, and humans only call them evil because we disapprove of what they do given our own values? Kinda like someone who is indifferent to suffering. Those of us who care about whether people suffer may find such a person horrible for not caring, but it's not that they're "bad", they just have a different way of viewing (and valuing) things in the world. Is this what you have in mind?
In a way, perhaps. But mainly it was the fact that the Dark Powers have never been - will never be - defined. Not their nature, their numbers, their powers or their alignment. They are the ultimate riddle in the Realm of Dread, and any official book, or even chapter, as it was in this case, leaning towards one explanation is generally a bad idea in my book. All Ravenloft DMs have their own version of the Dark Powers, and your idea and view of them is as good as any. You must also remember that, in all the world of Ravenloft, there are perhaps, say, five or six, perhaps some more, people who even have the faintest idea that the Dark Powers exist.
The update to the Witch-Hunter PrC was also quite good. The 3.5 version makes more sense.
Even with the demon hunter's ability to banish demons from Ravenloft?
I for one was quite happy with the 3.5 book, if only because it took care of the typos & errors of the 3.0.
Some of them. I think there's still a Mistway leading out of southern Barovia in there . . .
Matthew L. Martin
And since I don't think evil always involves a choice, I may look into that idea I suggested about Dark Powers checks.
Even with the demon hunter's ability to banish demons from Ravenloft?
I'll admit that sentence is badly phrased. However, as Azalin used to say (for those who remember the Kargatane website) it's up to the DM to use common sense for such problems. Solution? Make the banishment of the Demon-Hunter similar to the effect of a Banishment spell, and we both know what happens when one of those is cast in RL, don't we?
Some of them. I think there's still a Mistway leading out of southern Barovia in there . . .
So? Mist isn't confined to nations bordering the Core. A bank of dense mist can rise anywhere, any time. And Barovia has been described several times as a land where the mist appears frequently. Given Strahd is the linchpin of the Core, it isn't too far-fetched.
Oh, another question. Malus, you said something about the authors of the RLDMG thinking that the Dark Powers are evil. Are you suggesting that they're actually beyond good/evil, and humans only call them evil because we disapprove of what they do given our own values? Kinda like someone who is indifferent to suffering. Those of us who care about whether people suffer may find such a person horrible for not caring, but it's not that they're "bad", they just have a different way of viewing (and valuing) things in the world. Is this what you have in mind?
I think, instead of spending a greater amount of money for a setting you don't really know about, you should start with a smaller volume, such as Secrets of the Dread Realms.
As it appears that for most players, a Ravenloft campaign has to include a confrontation with some mayor villain, there you can find detailed info on the rulers of the Core and get an idea of what the tone of Ravenloft really is.
The rule system is not so important, in my opinion.
In my opinion, especially if you want to DM the setting someday, you have to understand that RL shall not be only Dungeon Crawling with Vampires, but that the adventures shall have a non-violent, but creepy and mysterious, sometimes morbid touch.
I think, instead of spending a greater amount of money for a setting you don't really know about, you should start with a smaller volume, such as Secrets of the Dread Realms.
Problem is, Secrets was really a stopgap item, with very little setting background and content mostly in the form of quick-and-dirty conversions of darklords to 3e-- most of which are being superseded in the various Gazetteers.
No, I think that caeruleus would be best off finding his/her FLGS and taking some time to pore over the stock of books they have-- or, if he knows someone who's already buying RL stuff, borrowing some books from them to make an informed judgment on the potential investment.
And an aside to Mort: the powers check for leveling wasn't the only Murphy's Rule in the RLPHB, sad to say...
However, as Azalin used to say (for those who remember the Kargatane website) it's up to the DM to use common sense for such problems.
Just for the record, Azalin only used his oft-heard "DM's perogative" reply with questions where the answer was simply a matter of DM taste with no particular affect on the game -- never to handwave away abberant rules that blatantly contradict the larger game system.
In the latter situations, Azalin would use another phrase: "Flying monkeys" and then handwave away a contradictory gameplay aspect.
Problem is, Secrets was really a stopgap item, with very little setting background and content mostly in the form of quick-and-dirty conversions of darklords to 3e-- most of which are being superseded in the various Gazetteers.
No, I think that caeruleus would be best off finding his/her FLGS and taking some time to pore over the stock of books they have-- or, if he knows someone who's already buying RL stuff, borrowing some books from them to make an informed judgment on the potential investment.
Yeah. Cannot recommend someone to buy all the important stuff before he even knows if he wants to play in RL!
;)
So? Mist isn't confined to nations bordering the Core. A bank of dense mist can rise anywhere, any time. And Barovia has been described several times as a land where the mist appears frequently. Given Strahd is the linchpin of the Core, it isn't too far-fetched.
Even so, the entry for a Barovian mistway was considered an error back when it was released in the 3E RL campaign setting; it was even errata'd when the errata file for the book was released over at www.kargatane.com (though it's lost now, with the site being closed).
The main difference between 2E and 3.x is that in 3.x the PCs begin as natives of Ravenloft, rather than as outlanders looking for an exit.
Actually, in Domains of Dread (which was 2E) it was assumed that most PC's would be natives rather than outlanders.
Also lets say you have pc's who consistently do stupid things ie trying to trick tannari and/or arcanaloths, although they did hang around bedlam alittle to long. Is Ravenloft an appropriate campaign setting for them? I play Planescape and I'm looking for a change.
Lets say the difference in cost between the RLPHB and the RL campaign setting is $3.00-$4.00. Which do you buy?
Also lets say you have pc's who consistently do stupid things ie trying to trick tannari and/or arcanaloths, although they did hang around bedlam alittle to long. Is Ravenloft an appropriate campaign setting for them? I play Planescape and I'm looking for a change.
My personal preference would be to get the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, since it doesn't have a lot of poorly designed rules which are included in the RL PHB. On the other hand, the RL PHB is compatible with the 3.5 rules. This mostly applies in the descriptions of the monster templates, and the changes to class abilities. (For example, in the RLCS, a Darklord could make a scry check to detect paladins. Of course the scry skill doesn't exist in 3.5.)
As for whether your PCs are appropriate, that depends. What races are they? If they are teiflings they will get a mega Outcast Rating, which will affect the way NPCs react. (They will probably run away screaming.) Also your PCs may be a little barmy from hanging around the Gate-Town to Pandaemonium.
Basically, Ravenloft is a campaign world of Gothic Horror. If you want to scare your players, it is a good campaign. The villains in RL are generally subtler, and are not apparently evil. (There are exceptions, like Vlad Drakov, who is very unsubtle. He impales innocents while he eats his dinner.) There are classic gothic monsters like ghosts, vampires, and flesh golems, which are often more powerful than they are in the Monster Manual. It is harder to turn undead, impossible to detect a character's moral alignment, and the mysterious Dark Powers control the demiplane which makes up the campaign setting. Characters used to plane-hopping might become upset that they are effectively trapped in a demi-plane, but then again for all they know this is one weird Prime world.
Too keep this post slightly on topic: I've been running Ravenloft adventures ever since I started playing AD&D (almost 10 years ago I think). It's an awsome setting if you like role playing adventures instead of dungeon crawl adventures. I found that watching old gothic horror movies (like Dracula, Frakenstein, etc.) gave me a really good idea of what the setting was, and still is, like. I've actually found that class levels are a bit too powerful for the adventures I run. I like the idea of regular people going up against really nasty opponents (I also like running Call of Cthulhu adventures
). In fact, I'm thinking of running a campaign where the PCs start off with NPC levels only. Instead of heroes trained to fight against evil, they are regular people that have had something nasty done to them and now they want revenge. Eventually, once they become expert monster hunters, they can start taking class levels (maybe).I've actually found that class levels are a bit too powerful for the adventures I run. I like the idea of regular people going up against really nasty opponents (I also like running Call of Cthulhu adventures
I agree with this wholeheartedly. In my opinion, the entire AD&D game has mechanics that artificially increase and protect the PCs against the sort of everyday, realistic difficulties that people come up against. AD&D is a game where you can sort of roll your eyes and say "yeah, that happens pretty often around these parts" when a dwarf hacks a dragon to death.
Call of Cthulhu is interesting in that your characters never seem to gain hit points - they only gain further skills. To me, that is the essence of what adventuring should be about. You gain knowledge as your primary weapon in your quest against evil/good/the blue lasers/whatever. In CoC, sometimes the PCs' hit points even go down if they've suffered a particularly debilitating defeat. And let's not mention sanity points - those are lost quite quickly, providing a ticking time bomb after which your character could become useless.
These are wonderful reflections of the frailty of the human mind and body. Ravenloft is probably the campaign setting closest to Call of Cthulhu in taste and style, and the lesser overt power of the Dark Lords simulates this. Hunters who get together to kill Strahd von Zarovich probably never even get to see him - they'd be nickeled and dimed to death by his minions, and the variety of psychological horrors they have to face. By the time the Count even gets his hands on them, they'd most likely be gibbering wretches.