Anyway, I've been reading over the Red Steel campaign sources, in addition to working from the original source material (the Dragon articles), and I just constantly find myself underwhelmed by what the designers did with the AD&D conversion.
I never really cared for the idea of the Legacies- much preferred the original version of seed of cinnabar/cinnabryl/essence of cinnabar (though that system was sort of fraught with some of its own difficulties), but even more, just some of the basics of the setting are inconsistent.
For example, even though John of the Wain is Earl in 1000 AC (when the Princess Ark visits), in Red Steel, time has somehow warped so that he doesn't become Earl until 1008 AC! His father, who died at Longhorn's Last Stand (again, in the original), is now the Earl at the time of the Princess Ark's passing.
I haven't yet checked the dates for some of the other events, but I really hope this is the only inconsistency to crop up. It's hard enough making things fit without dates that don't mesh with one another. Grr.
Anyway... back to your regularly scheduled Mystara board.
One idea I came up with was that the Red Curse was changed between AC1000 and AC1010, thus going from the Princess Ark version into the Legacy version very recently. Perhaps it could also be restored quite quickly so that it doesn't destroy the entire society too fast.
Also, I was thinking smoke powder should also be a relatively recent invention, so that around AC1000 they would still be using crossbows (but I'd keep hand crossbows rare since they are a bit silly). I never cared for the explaination about why smolke powder weapons don't work outside the SC either. I'd rather simply have the SC be more developed in that area and keep such weapons _extremely_ rare outside the region. Sort of like firearms in the RW 1500s.
Just a few random thoughts...
Håvard
One idea I came up with was that the Red Curse was changed between AC1000 and AC1010, thus going from the Princess Ark version into the Legacy version very recently. Perhaps it could also be restored quite quickly so that it doesn't destroy the entire society too fast.
I think that's the best explanation for it- there is some rationale for it in the history given in the Red Steel set (it mentions some changes that occurred recently- though it mainly refers to the greater area of the "curse" post-WotI.)
Also, I was thinking smoke powder should also be a relatively recent invention, so that around AC1000 they would still be using crossbows (but I'd keep hand crossbows rare since they are a bit silly). I never cared for the explaination about why smolke powder weapons don't work outside the SC either. I'd rather simply have the SC be more developed in that area and keep such weapons _extremely_ rare outside the region. Sort of like firearms in the RW 1500s.
Wholeheartedly agree with you here. In fact, I was thinking of instituting something along the lines of Bruce Heard's cannon article in Dragon, where gunpowder appears in the Known World as a byproduct of the WotI war.
Even if you keep the timelines as given, I think it's pretty ridiculous that wheellocks developed so quickly on the SC. They go from just discovering smokepowder to wheellocks in something like a decade (don't recall exactly how long, but it's very short). In the RW, wheellocks didn't develop until the 16th century or so, several hundred years after the first cannons were used (around the time of the Battle of Poitiers, 1356ish). I realize this is a fantasy game (and time seems very compressed on Mystara- witness the rise of the human races compared to our own), but still...
I was thinking about smoke powder myself, and the though came to me that perhaps what they use on the SC is different than our RW gunpowder. Maybe there is another ingredient that is rare and is generally only found in this region. I first thought it might be related to red steel, cinnabryl, or the like, but it could be just some other mystaran ingredient. This way we'd keep smoke powder reasonably rare and generally restricted to the SC with exports commanding an exorbitant price. What's your take on this guys?
I think that's what they say in Red Steel- it's steel seed or something, somehow related to Vermeil... I'm not sure (it's kind of confusing). But if you have a concern about gunpowder/smokepowder reaching other areas of the world, then I'd say it's a pretty good solution to the problem. After all, the curse doesn't extend further for similar reasons (the cinnabryl is only located in the Savage Coast area).
I think that's the best explanation for it- there is some rationale for it in the history given in the Red Steel set (it mentions some changes that occurred recently- though it mainly refers to the greater area of the "curse" post-WotI.)
Yep, I guess thats where I got the idea from too. I'm thinking the curse not only expanded geographically, but also changed so that everyone would be affected (ie Legacies), whereas before it was only the inheritors who would get powers from it.
Wholeheartedly agree with you here. In fact, I was thinking of instituting something along the lines of Bruce Heard's cannon article in Dragon, where gunpowder appears in the Known World as a byproduct of the WotI war.
Given that most Mystara fans hate the idea of having gunpowder even exist in the campaign world, I suspect getting acceptance for that theory among the general mystara crown could be hard. OTOH, I like this idea. Even though firearms exist on Mystara, that doesn't mean that they will become commonplace in this century or even the next. The firearms mentioned in Bruce Heard's article were pretty primitive too IIRC.
Even if you keep the timelines as given, I think it's pretty ridiculous that wheellocks developed so quickly on the SC. They go from just discovering smokepowder to wheellocks in something like a decade (don't recall exactly how long, but it's very short). In the RW, wheellocks didn't develop until the 16th century or so, several hundred years after the first cannons were used (around the time of the Battle of Poitiers, 1356ish). I realize this is a fantasy game (and time seems very compressed on Mystara- witness the rise of the human races compared to our own), but still...
I like to think of Mystara as roughly comparable to RW Europe around 1500AD. So, Gunpowder has probably been invented some time ago (Dwarves and Gnomes suspected), but such weapons are pretty rare. The Alphatians might have gunpowder too, but use it only for fireworks (like the Chinese did). The SC is slightly ahead of the KW (at least the baronies), and thus they develop wheellocks around AC1000, but taking about 10 years to become widely known among the baronies. This will be sorely needed in the defence against Hule in the time to come.
Obviously firearms is not for everyone's campaign, but the official settings that use firearms have other ways to limit these weapons:
* Exotic Weapon Feat required
* Mishaps
* long Reloading time
* expensive weapons
* expensive ammo/gunpowder
Håvard
Given that most Mystara fans hate the idea of having gunpowder even exist in the campaign world, I suspect getting acceptance for that theory among the general mystara crown could be hard. OTOH, I like this idea. Even though firearms exist on Mystara, that doesn't mean that they will become commonplace in this century or even the next. The firearms mentioned in Bruce Heard's article were pretty primitive too IIRC.
That article also mentioned that they were invented as a byproduct of the war by a Heldannic knight. Since we know the Heldanners have had contact with the Savage Coast since somewhere pre-1000 AC, it's not too much of a stretch (IMO) to assume that's where the "inventions" actually originated.
I like to think of Mystara as roughly comparable to RW Europe around 1500AD. So, Gunpowder has probably been invented some time ago (Dwarves and Gnomes suspected), but such weapons are pretty rare. The Alphatians might have gunpowder too, but use it only for fireworks (like the Chinese did).
I was thinking similar thoughts. The obvious place to put it is Ochalea (RW China-MChina connections), but gnomes/dwarves seem a more reasonable 'fantasy' explanation, given their fantasy natures/inclinations. Alphatia is a very high probability as well.
The SC is slightly ahead of the KW (at least the baronies), and thus they develop wheellocks around AC1000, but taking about 10 years to become widely known among the baronies. This will be sorely needed in the defence against Hule in the time to come.
I don't know that they're ahead of the KW so much, but they definitely fit the criteria that led to the development of firearms in the RW- territories that are in an almost constant state of conflict. There is so much back and forth there between the baronies (with themselves and Hule) that innovations in weaponry would be quite welcome and quickly implemented, I think. So even though guns were initially rather unstable and unreliable, once they got "dumbed down" to a point where it was easier and quicker to train people in their use as opposed to other weapons (longbows and crossbows) they would become more widespread.
In contrast, the KW has been rather more stable in the past century, and such innovations wouldn't necessarily spread quite as well. Not to mention that the KW seems more "magic-innovative" than "technological-innovative", so new discoveries tend to be the fantastic rather than mundane.
The Isle of Dawn is a region where I could see something similar happening, though even that is relatively stable compared to the last century along the Savage Coast.
Obviously firearms is not for everyone's campaign, but the official settings that use firearms have other ways to limit these weapons:
* Exotic Weapon Feat required
* Mishaps
* long Reloading time
* expensive weapons
* expensive ammo/gunpowder
I think 3E got rid of the long reloading times, for the most part, due to the way multiple attacks work in 3E. Even the heavy crossbow just requires a full move action to reload now. We could change that, or do the same thing a heavy crossbow requires (full move for reload).
I think the other suggestions definitely are good, though. Mishaps- especially with early firearms- were not uncommon. Even just keeping the fuse lit was trouble.
(OT- I saw this great show on the History channel a couple years back where a group of guys were given firearms from different eras- arquebus/hand cannon, wheellock, flintlock, and there was one other, I think- and they had to use them in some different shooting activities. It was really cool to watch. Those early weapons were so inaccurate it's funny. That's why the standard tactics with early gunners was to just line them up and fire in the general direction of the enemy, in hopes the barrage of ammo would hit something. It's also why the English rifles were so feared in later years.)
I'm half-tempted to suggest poor accuracy to these limitations, but that's something that (I think) should probably be best reflected by the character's BAB (ie, most standard warriors of 1st-2nd level in an army would have low BABs and would tend not to hit very well, while a high level character has improved his accuracy. This actually fits with that special I mentioned- after practice, even the arquebus guy got better.
I'm half-tempted to suggest poor accuracy to these limitations, but that's something that (I think) should probably be best reflected by the character's BAB (ie, most standard warriors of 1st-2nd level in an army would have low BABs and would tend not to hit very well, while a high level character has improved his accuracy. This actually fits with that special I mentioned- after practice, even the arquebus guy got better.
I'd agree with the poor accuracy limitation (both from an historical perspective and from a personal bias against firearms in fantasy, not that I'd ban them though). The best way I can think of to include this in the rules would be to give them poor range increments. As a character gains experience he'd improve his marksmanship through a rising BAB and certain feats. Hmmm...
I'd agree with the poor accuracy limitation (both from an historical perspective and from a personal bias against firearms in fantasy, not that I'd ban them though). The best way I can think of to include this in the rules would be to give them poor range increments. As a character gains experience he'd improve his marksmanship through a rising BAB and certain feats. Hmmm...
That's a good idea- I hadn't even thought about range increments. (Runs off to take some notes...)
That article also mentioned that they were invented as a byproduct of the war by a Heldannic knight. Since we know the Heldanners have had contact with the Savage Coast since somewhere pre-1000 AC, it's not too much of a stretch (IMO) to assume that's where the "inventions" actually originated.
That makes sense indeed.
Its been a while since I read the article, but I seem to recall there being alot of speculation about who first invented the firearms? The SC should in any case be the source of the Heldanners firearms...
I was thinking similar thoughts. The obvious place to put it is Ochalea (RW China-MChina connections), but gnomes/dwarves seem a more reasonable 'fantasy' explanation, given their fantasy natures/inclinations. Alphatia is a very high probability as well.
Alot of these people could have come up with gunpowder without thinking about its military uses. Ofcourse, a real dwarf would have no use for fireworks! ;)
I don't know that they're ahead of the KW so much, but they definitely fit the criteria that led to the development of firearms in the RW- territories that are in an almost constant state of conflict. There is so much back and forth there between the baronies (with themselves and Hule) that innovations in weaponry would be quite welcome and quickly implemented, I think. So even though guns were initially rather unstable and unreliable, once they got "dumbed down" to a point where it was easier and quicker to train people in their use as opposed to other weapons (longbows and crossbows) they would become more widespread.
Interessting. In D&D mechanics terms, requiring the Feat Exotic weapon(Firearms), to use one of these weapons efficiently will mean that most people wonæt be able to. In the KW the fact that alot of people are already trained with longbows and crossbows will mean that they won't see much use in the clumsy firearms anyways.
In contrast, the KW has been rather more stable in the past century, and such innovations wouldn't necessarily spread quite as well. Not to mention that the KW seems more "magic-innovative" than "technological-innovative", so new discoveries tend to be the fantastic rather than mundane.
Indeed. An army confident in its smokepowder guns could find itself losing to an army of expert archers armed with magical bows. If firearms are kept expensive, getting magical bows might be more efficient.
The Isle of Dawn is a region where I could see something similar happening, though even that is relatively stable compared to the last century along the Savage Coast.
You are more of an IoD expert than me, but I always saw the IoD as a bit of a backwater place compared to the KW, being filled with Northmen, Celts and the like? So even if they are politically similar to the savage baronies, they should
I think 3E got rid of the long reloading times, for the most part, due to the way multiple attacks work in 3E. Even the heavy crossbow just requires a full move action to reload now. We could change that, or do the same thing a heavy crossbow requires (full move for reload).
You are right. According to the DMG, renaissance weapons only take 1 standard action to reload. OTOH, the Freeport City of Adventures sourcebook that I've been using IMC requires a full round action to reload the weapons described there, though that was written prior to 3.5. In the Iron Kingdoms Sourcebook (3.5), weapons require 2-4 standard actions to reload _and_ a skill check.
So we have a couple of options. I don't like including the skill check from IK, as I prefer keeping die rolls to a minimum. OTOH, I like long reloading times, since it means people will fire once, the draw their swords, just like in the pirate movies ;)
I think the other suggestions definitely are good, though. Mishaps- especially with early firearms- were not uncommon. Even just keeping the fuse lit was trouble.
I have those from Freeport. A roll of 1 on the attack roll die, indicates a mishap. Mishaps rarely mean the gun explodes though, but the weapon can become jammed, the barrel can become fouled requiring it to be cleaned or other problems. There is a table for in in the Freeport CoA Sourcebook.
(OT- I saw this great show on the History channel a couple years back where a group of guys were given firearms from different eras- arquebus/hand cannon, wheellock, flintlock, and there was one other, I think- and they had to use them in some different shooting activities. It was really cool to watch. Those early weapons were so inaccurate it's funny. That's why the standard tactics with early gunners was to just line them up and fire in the general direction of the enemy, in hopes the barrage of ammo would hit something. It's also why the English rifles were so feared in later years.)
I'm half-tempted to suggest poor accuracy to these limitations, but that's something that (I think) should probably be best reflected by the character's BAB (ie, most standard warriors of 1st-2nd level in an army would have low BABs and would tend not to hit very well, while a high level character has improved his accuracy. This actually fits with that special I mentioned- after practice, even the arquebus guy got better.
I agree with Hugin that low accuracy can be modelled through short range increments. It can also be used to justify that the weapons don't cause much damage. Getting a direct hit is just too hard. Oh, and requiring a Feat also helps explain the examples you describe. According to the DMG, firing a gun without the feat means you'll suffer at a -4 penalty.
It would be cool to do a little writeup of all this, making sort of a History of Mystaran Firearms article.
Oh, and another idea:
What if the magical smokepowder on the SC isn't a substitute for Blackpowder, but an improved version. That would make it a much in demand magical substance, yet hardly the only way to fire a gun.
Håvard
Dwarves and gunpowder:
I don't think dwarves would invent gunpowder. IMO they are more into technology, mining and metalurgy than alchemy. Indeed, I am contemplating having Rockhome dwarves come up with a crude steam engine to run the Known World's first mechanical train underneath Rockhome.
Known World - technology / magical innovation inclined?
I think that since magic is an established phenomenon in this world most inventors would likely look in this direction in the development of more powerful/useful weapons. Indeed, look at the other thread somewhere at the boards about the Alphatian "Death Star" floating in space...
But some alchemists might happen upon gunpowder by accident. It could be just random or the result of the efforts of the Secret Craft of Alchemy in Glantri. But other factions, such as the technology-hating Flaems will probably try to destroy any knowledge of such weapons - as well as the inventors themselves! If Darokin has a Leonardi da Vinci-kind of inventor turning out all sorts of mechanical wonders they would probably take him out as well...?
Limiting firearms:
Well, if you rule that gunpowder is partially composed of a rare ingredient nobody would care to use them because they would be too expensive. Nobody would ever fire a bow if an arrowtip costs 20 gold pieces.
Ranges and firearms:
I believe that AD&D 2E had some kind of range limitations. If I remember correctly the range penalties were simply doubled for medium and long range for an arquebus making the weapon really just a close range missile weapon before melee much like a throwing axe. The strong feature of the arquebus was that if you rolled max on your damage roll you got to roll again making it possible (but not likely) to do 100 points of damage in one hit!
Firearms and accuracy:
I watched a feature about early cannons on Discovery and it took a team of archaologists an entire afternoon to hit a wooden wall once.. The range, the barrel elevation, the amount of gunpowder, the weight of the cannon ball etc kept screwing it up :D
Magic on the battlefield:
In my previous campaigns at Companion and Master levels I have experienced problems with PCs using magic such as fireballs to dominate a battlefield. Five or six fireball spells, a meteor swarm and then shapeshifting to dragon form will rout practically any army... So eventually I had to come up with an explanation as to why armies did even exist. Why every nation didn't simply have 20 15+ level mages and clerics to back them up. And I came up with a house rule about mana flow - the idea that the use of magic drains mana from an area and the area has to be "filled up" again before new powerful spells can be cast. This lead to all sorts of interesting things. Some battlefields became weird no-magic zones where magic had been permanently drained while other areas became "high-mana" areas where spells were more potent than normally. Such places were ideal to perform demanding rituals of magic.
I think that was about all the coments I had. Looking forward to see where this discussion is headed
:-) Jesper
Good thoughts on the dwarves and the KW's tendencies to magical rather than mundane innovations when it comes to military applications. I really like the idea of a Leonardi da Vinci-kind of inventor for Darokin. Maybe he was inspired by some gnomes that he had the chance to befriend. This could be a very interesting character. ;)
Limiting firearms:
Well, if you rule that gunpowder is partially composed of a rare ingredient nobody would care to use them because they would be too expensive. Nobody would ever fire a bow if an arrowtip costs 20 gold pieces.
I actually meant that the one ingredient of smoke powder was rare on Mystara, but fairly common on the SC only. That keeps the price reasonable around the baronies but it rises significantly once it has to be exported.
Firearms and accuracy:
I believe that AD&D 2E had some kind of range limitations. If I remember correctly the range penalties were simply doubled for medium and long range for an arquebus making the weapon really just a close range missile weapon before melee much like a throwing axe. The strong feature of the arquebus was that if you rolled max on your damage roll you got to roll again making it possible (but not likely) to do 100 points of damage in one hit!
The 2E arquebus did indeed have its range penalties doubled, but it only fired once every three rounds. It historically required the use of a coarse powder for the barrel and a finer one for the firing pan. It did have a great potential for damage, but I think it was rather ineffective by itself. I'd say its best use and reason for continuing to use them would be as part of a large volley of pellets on the battlefield. Oh, and the feats I had in mind were ones like Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Precise Shot, although requiring the Feat Exotic weapon(Firearms) probobly isn't a bad idea either.
Interesting comments about magic on the battlefield, Spellweaver. I like the idea. I'd view it like a well using the water table; take out too much water too quickly can drain the well even though there is still water surrounding it not very far away. It just takes some time for the water to seep through the ground and back into the well.
Looking forward to see where this discussion is headed
Definitely!
I am curious about the desire to make Firearms an Exotic Weapon feat. Historically, the reason that primitive firearms became popular was the ease of use, where any ole' peasant could be trained to use one fairly quickly. The use of a longbow took many years of practice. Feats are the DnD method of explaining how hard it is to learn a weapon. By making firearms an exotic feat, that is effectively saying that they are harder to learn to use than a longbow. While this may accomplish desired game balance, it largely ignores the physical realities of the two weapons.
I see your point, and it's something I hadn't considered. My first reaction is- well, it's an Exotic Feat because firearms are very rare, still, and thus not everyone would know how to use one ("What do I do with this fuse again? I touch it to the stuff that smokes and fizzes and blows up? Yeah, right..."). As they become more commonplace, it would require just a normal feat (or even become a Simple weapon, eventually.)
My other thought is that an Exotic Weapon Feat for "firearms" would cover *All* firearms- not just, say, pistols. Which makes it more useful than a "standard" Exotic weapon feat, but still not something any average joe would be likely to pick up.
Another idea that comes to mind, though, is simply making it a Martial Weapon feat (firearms), which doesn't make much of a difference, save that certain characters (Fighters, for example) would not require any special training to use.
It's a tough call, but a good point.
I see your point, and it's something I hadn't considered. My first reaction is- well, it's an Exotic Feat because firearms are very rare, still, and thus not everyone would know how to use one ("What do I do with this fuse again? I touch it to the stuff that smokes and fizzes and blows up? Yeah, right..."). As they become more commonplace, it would require just a normal feat (or even become a Simple weapon, eventually.)
As you point out, the difference between a martial or an exotic weapon is that martial weapons are weapons all fighters are assumed to have been given training with. Even in the Savage Baronies, firearms shouldn't be something every fighter would have been trained to use.
OleOneEye has a point about the simplicity to use being one of the main reasons why firearms came to replace bows and the like. However, at this stage the weapons are still primitive and relatively difficult to use. This is not merely a question of how to load and fire the gun, but the fact that you aim at the target instead of above him, as you would with a bow, and the massive recoil these weapons would have had. Eventually, as firearms become more advanced they will probably move to the simple weapons category.
Ultimately, game balance is also an important argument here. Many of the other exotic weapons are also not that difficult to use, but are simply more powerful.
My other thought is that an Exotic Weapon Feat for "firearms" would cover *All* firearms- not just, say, pistols. Which makes it more useful than a "standard" Exotic weapon feat, but still not something any average joe would be likely to pick up.
I agree. I would probably limit it to Blackpowder weapons, requiring a separate feat should the heroes for some reason pick up a 20th Century firearm or a laser pistol, like the one posessed by Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels ;)
Håvard
Guns in D&D
Seems we're not the only ones interested in the idea of gunpowder weapons in D&D- here's a similar (and interesting) discussion about same at ENWorld.
Guns in D&D
Interesting thread!
Here is what I'd go for:
To use a type of firearm, one of the following feats will be required:
FEAT: Exotic Weapons [Blackpowder Weapons]
FEAT: Exotic Weapons [Modern Firearms]
FEAT: Exotic Weapons [Energy Weapons]
Anyone attempting to fire a weapon without the feat suffer a -4 penalty.
Blackpowder weapons have a limited range, and have a chance of misfiring. On a roll of 1, the weapon can become jammed, suffer other complications or even explode.
Blackpowder weapons require 1-4 standard actions to reload. The ones from Bruce's Article (weapons found in the Known World) probably require 4 standard actions to reload, while the Savage Coast ones may require less. Blackpowder, the weapons themselves, and the ammunition are all expensive.
In AC1000, Blackpowder weapons are extremely rare in the Known World and very rare on the Savage Coast. They are unheard of elsewhere.
In AC1010, Blackpowder weapons are very rare in the Known World and rare on the Savage Coast. They are unheard of elsewhere.
Modern and Futuristic weapons are extremely rare, but leftovers from the Blackmoor civlization may be discovered. Also, som distant planes known to the Immortals (see IM-series) may be sources of advanced weaponry, but transporting technology between planes often damages the equipment (See IM3?).
Håvard