How would the Warlock fit into Krynn's dualistic arcane framework ... would the Warlock be considered a user of wild magic? That was the first thought that popped into my mind, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed as if a Warlock would be a creature entirely outside of the normal arcane framework. Since he uses spell-like abilities, perhaps he should be viewed as though he were some magical creature (e.g. various fey). Then again, powerful Wizards on Krynn (with the Archmage prestige class) can develop the ability to use some of their spells as spell-like abilities, yet their magic is still considered godly moon magic. Or is the whole concept of a class that only has spell-like abilties so foreign to Krynn that it should be lumped into the same category as psionics?
Note that fey and other spell-like ability creatures use primal magic, though not wild magic. Not something mortals are capable of doing, although your point with the archmage is valid. It's possible the warlock is more suited towards high sorcery than primal sorcery.
Cheers,
Cam
Note that fey and other spell-like ability creatures use primal magic, though not wild magic.
Cam, while I know what you mean by this, I think you're going to confuse people. It's the same magic, it's just that there has to be a condition (Chaos) in order for mortals to use it.
Surely there's another way of phrasing it so that people aren't confused into thinking there are three types of arcane magic in Krynn, such as "inherent primal magic" and "wild primal magic". I wouldn't go with those terms (as they're a mouthful), but you get the idea.
Back to the warlock...
The class sounds real interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Spell-like abilities would hint at having a natural connection to the ambient magic of Krynn. Being an arcane class, that would be primal sorcery.
This type of character would probably do fairly well in the Age of Mortals. In prior ages, there's the WoHS to contend with.
Personally, I think that would be a challenging character to play, and one that would offer a lot of neat possibilities in Krynn. In the early Age of Mortals, sorcerers who are discovering how primal sorcery works would certainly be interested in a character who had such an innate and intuitive knowledge of arcane magic.
After the WoS, this character could fall in the middle of the tension between sorcerers and wizards.
Wow, this sounds like a fun class!
Back to the warlock...
The class sounds real interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Spell-like abilities would hint at having a natural connection to the ambient magic of Krynn. Being an arcane class, that would be primal sorcery.
This type of character would probably do fairly well in the Age of Mortals. In prior ages, there's the WoHS to contend with.
Personally, I think that would be a challenging character to play, and one that would offer a lot of neat possibilities in Krynn. In the early Age of Mortals, sorcerers who are discovering how primal sorcery works would certainly be interested in a character who had such an innate and intuitive knowledge of arcane magic.
After the WoS, this character could fall in the middle of the tension between sorcerers and wizards.
Wow, this sounds like a fun class!
Hmm ... perhaps the new Warlock core class (if we go with the primal magic route) could be seen as an evolution in the way arcane primal magic-users tap into the ambient energy of Krynn. Just like the standard sorcerer is an evolution over the original SAGA-style sorcerer (which was forbidden spells dealing with "living" targets [e.g. charm person]), the Warlock is a higher understanding of Krynn's arcane primal energy ...
Damn, I really wish I had this book already. :P
the Warlock is a higher understanding of Krynn's arcane primal energy ...
Maybe not a higher understanding so much as an innate understanding, or a more natural connection.
Cam, while I know what you mean by this, I think you're going to confuse people. It's the same magic, it's just that there has to be a condition (Chaos) in order for mortals to use it.
Surely there's another way of phrasing it so that people aren't confused into thinking there are three types of arcane magic in Krynn, such as "inherent primal magic" and "wild primal magic". I wouldn't go with those terms (as they're a mouthful), but you get the idea.
There's ultimately only one type of arcane magic on Krynn, it just has a number of ways of being expressed, used, accessed, whatever. We know this to be the case, even with wild magic of sorcerers and the High Sorcery of wizards, because sorcerers can drain magic from items and use it to boost their own spellcasting. In its most raw state, it's primal magic. When it's focused by the gods of magic, it's high sorcery. When it's made available because of Chaos, it's wild magic or sorcery.
And so on.
I don't think people are that confused. At least, I hope they aren't.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't think people are that confused. At least, I hope they aren't.
I think we're getting off-topic here, so I'll shoot you an e-mail in private.
Back to discussing the warlock!
Hrm...a Warlock of High Sorcery. That could be interesting...
If the Warlock looks as good as it sounds, I'll take it! Hopefully it'll be something that at the most needs a minor tweak to fit into DL. I disgree, even given the current restrictions on what type of magic are available in certain ages, that it would only be playable during the AoM. I think if it's using spell-like abilities that would imply that mortals can infact weild "inheirant primal magic" and could therefore be used in any age. Of course, that's coming fromt he guy who think's that "Chaos" magic is bunk and that primal sorcery fell out fashion and was forgotten not made inaccessible due to lack of Chaos. 
We'll first have to take a look at it and then see what the Powers-That-Be have to say about it.
All very interesting stuff. There's even a Wild Mage prestige class in the book. I'll post more once I've read more.
I'm picking up my copy today, also, so I'll throw in my 2 cents when I've had a chance to go over it.
The wild mage is an interesting concept but I don't think it's the same kind of wild, if you know what I mean.
Cheers,
Cam
I'm picking up my copy today, also, so I'll throw in my 2 cents when I've had a chance to go over it.
The wild mage is an interesting concept but I don't think it's the same kind of wild, if you know what I mean.
Cheers,
Cam
Yah. From my brief perusal of the Wild Mage, it seemed more like the Wild = I'm into random spell effects and things involving chaos (with a little 'c') than Wild = ambient magical energy of the world. Near as I can tell, the other two "new" base classes in CA are almost exactly the same as their "old" versions ... i.e. the Warmage (ala Miniatures Handbook) and the Wu Jen (ala Oriental Adventures).
EDIT: Ooh, they added the Mage Slayer feat in there ... though with a needed change. ;)
Looking forward to the wild mage. I've been a fan of the wild mage concept since the Tome of Magic came out. Really, it's probably geared a lot more towards the Realms, where they have wild magic areas.
I could potentially see the influence of Chaos producing wild magic effects, but I think that's a theme that fits the Realms better.
Now I've got to get this book!
You really must get this book, if only for the Warlock.
How do the spell-like abilities work? Do you pick a certain number of each level, or are they chosen for you?
Looking forward to the wild mage. I've been a fan of the wild mage concept since the Tome of Magic came out. Really, it's probably geared a lot more towards the Realms, where they have wild magic areas.
I could potentially see the influence of Chaos producing wild magic effects, but I think that's a theme that fits the Realms better.
Now I've got to get this book!
There's the Eldritch Blast spell-like ability, which is a pure damaging arcane ray attack that allows no save but does allow for spell resistance. This can be modified by taking several different invocations, so that the Blast also causes the target to become shaken, sickened, suffer fire damage, ability damage, gain negative levels, etc.
Aside from Edritch Blast, the Warlock will only ever know 12 different invocations (spell-like abilities useable at will), unless of course he takes the Extra Invocation feat, which lets him learn a single new invocation. The invocations all mimic spells or have level equivalents anywhere from 1st to 6th level, and even as high as 9th level.
They also get a number of other cool little abilities, like fey-type damage reduction, minor energy resistances, a meditative healing ability, as well as the cool ability to make just about any magic item (though he must still know the appropriate magic item creation feat).
There are a surprising number of new prestige classes in the book. Of the 19 or so prestige classes, roughly half are brand new, the remainder mainly being revisions of Tome and Blood prestige classes.
The only thing that irritates me about the book (given my limited skimming) is that once again the sorcerer gets the shaft. Sure, they get draconic feats. But the draconic feats suck.
Still a good book though, and so far I haven't noticed any horrible editing mistakes ala Complete Divine (e.g. See page XXX).
Yah. From my brief perusal of the Wild Mage, it seemed more like the Wild = I'm into random spell effects and things involving chaos (with a little 'c') than Wild = ambient magical energy of the world. Near as I can tell, the other two "new" base classes in CA are almost exactly the same as their "old" versions ... i.e. the Warmage (ala Miniatures Handbook) and the Wu Jen (ala Oriental Adventures).
EDIT: Ooh, they added the Mage Slayer feat in there ... though with a needed change. ;)
I think the Wild Mage is a throwback to the original class presented in Tome of Magic back in the AD&D days. I don't think a prestige class does it much justice from what I read. And there is no wild magic chart! When I used to played Dragonlance in AD&D I remember I actually used the wild mage class to represent the wild magic trapped in the Gemstone. It worked great. I haven't read the Warlock yet, but it does look cool. Maybe they can fit better in Taladas though, either as a small school of warlocks, or just the loners they seem to be portray as.
In Dragonlance terms, the warlock is probably no better at representing the SAGA sorcerer than the 3.5 PHB sorcerer is. In fact, given their decidedly dark and sinister overtones, they're closer to being actual descendants of fiends than anything else. I can see them being something different from sorcerers - mortals who carry some of Chaos' taint, a legacy of their ancestor's encounter with the Graygem. Also, it seems like it would be an even more appropriate class for bozaks and (especially) auraks, what with the eldritch blast and spell-like abilities.
The wild mage is really not a good fit for Dragonlance, either. Their primary distinguishing feature is that they are permanently affected by a -3 to their caster level, and that whenever their actual caster level is an issue they roll 1d6 and add it. Thus, they fluctuate a little. Wild sorcerers aren't anything like this, though, so it's not exactly the poster child for SAGA magic.
Cheers,
Cam
The warlock is even more tied to a bloodline than the sorcerer is, at least in the background that's supplied.
Easy, we do what Dragonlance did for the D&D sorcerer, change the background. Dragonlance changed the sorcerer's background from "innate power born of a dragon ancestor" to "manipulator of ambient energy as a result of Chaos' release into the world." Same with the warlock, instead of "innate power born of a fey/devilish ancestor", we have "manipulator of ambient energy as a result of Chaos' release into the world."
Easy, we do what Dragonlance did for the D&D sorcerer, change the background.
Right, that's a given. I was pointing it out more as a way of explaining their "core" background, not the one they should necessarily have in DL.
Cheers,
Cam
Right, that's a given. I was pointing it out more as a way of explaining their "core" background, not the one they should necessarily have in DL.
Cheers,
Cam
Ahh, I gotcha.
The sad part about the Warlock is that while I really like the class and will offer it to my players as a viable choice I know no one will take me up on it ... buncha conservative hacks.
The sad part about the Warlock is that while I really like the class and will offer it to my players as a viable choice I know no one will take me up on it ... buncha conservative hacks.
If you want to have them get it, have a NPC warlock arrive as a villain and practicialy blow their heads off. That ought to get it moving
If you want to have them get it, have a NPC warlock arrive as a villain and practicialy blow their heads off. That ought to get it moving
That's certainly true enough ...
Hmm ... a Balor Warlock ...Yah. From my brief perusal of the Wild Mage, it seemed more like the Wild = I'm into random spell effects and things involving chaos (with a little 'c') than Wild = ambient magical energy of the world.
Well, ambient magic of the world is essentially just magic that world has normally doesn't it? What is the weave of Faerun if it isn't ambient magic? What is the magic of Greyhawk? Heck, you could say that Dragonlance's magic has always been ambient, with the moons causing fluxes in it like the tides.
There is no real special flavour to the SAGA sorcerer that we haven't seen hundreds of times before besides the spellcasting mechanic. If I remember correctly, there was a chance of a mishap when casting spells.
Off-Topic: I dunno, Wu Jen+Elemental Savant is just seeming like a very scary combo right now for me...
This is off topic as well, but I have to ask. Does anyone else find that "two wand using feat"(don't remember the exact name) a little broken?
What, you mean the whole ability to potentially cast two fourth level spells in one round, repeatedly? No...it isn't broken per se, it is down right insane. It should require Quicken Spell as a prereq.
What, you mean the whole ability to potentially cast two fourth level spells in one round, repeatedly? No...it isn't broken per se, it is down right insane. It should require Quicken Spell as a prereq.
I agree. It needs more of a prereq than two weapon fighting and craft wand. The mechanic needs to be worked on as well. It should require a concentration check of some type and if it is blown the wands don't work, but the charges are still wasted.