Thoughts, if you please. Need a few brainstorm seeds.
Let's just say, I wasn't a huge fan of DVD.
Let's just say, I wasn't a huge fan of DVD.
Very few people were. ;)
Indeed, before you go into what could happen, you need a reason to have the PC's tagging along with the being that challenges Her Serenity in the first place.
Perhaps it's Aoskar (I might be wrong here, but I think that WAS the God the Lady of Pain slaughtered along with all the worshippers) that has come back to life, his body was never in the Astral but SOMEWHERE else, where the PC's ended up at some point. And since this IS the god of portals, he wants revenge. Now how to get it? Wait, some powerful being is fueling Aoskar here? Some being is pulling Aoskar into a confrontation with the Lady?! For what purpose?! And why, WHY, are a bunch of ants hanging about and why are they so useful?
Note: Ants=PC's.
Now then, let's say Aoskar does confront the Lady. Have this where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in Sigil can see. Since Sigil does have walls that, when you go over, SOMETHING happens, perhaps the populace 'looks' over the wall to witness Aoskar and Sigil in that space where the 'spokes' of the City could've been hadn't a Surprise! of the Xaostics gone awry. At this, the PC's have been witnesses to a god's impotent fury. Aoskar WILL be slaughtered. AGAIN.
But this in and of itself is a portal key of a differenty sort. A portal opens for the very being that had been pulling Aoskar's strings. Place whatever big thing you want here, and place a new enemy for the multiverse. Perhaps some malignant bane upon all kind will arise at this point, hounding the PC's and becoming a damnation even for the Lower Planes as well as the Upper.
And only the PC's can go back to the source to plug'em back up. Of course, many of the 'things' are out already. And they've taken residence on a Prime world. There to perpetuate and spring out and devastate whatever is in their path. Yugoloth's will find ones to haggle with. Celestials will find champions to fight these beings on mortal planes. Modrons will their usual selves while the Slaadi will do whatever. But these things seem to be unable to go to Sigil. Not a one will ever penetrate it. Which accounts for that grouping of such beings trying to climb the Spire.
Now question for this basher here. What's DVD?
Now question for this basher here. What's DVD?
Die, Vecna, Die!, a 2nd edition setting-spanning module that was the supposed transition between the 2nd and 3rd editions. The basic plot was that Vecna escaped Ravenloft, the Demiplane of Dread, and some how entered Sigil, in an attempt to become some sort of overdeity. The module itself completely ignored alot of the history of both Planescape and Ravenloft (probably Greyhawk too). IIRC the authors involved in Planescape and Ravenloft weren't even informed about this module until its release. Most people hate it, with good reason.
But this in and of itself is a portal key of a differenty sort. A portal opens for the very being that had been pulling Aoskar's strings.
...
Now question for this basher here. What's DVD?
All good, except that the Lady appears to control the portals. The powerful baddy would have to find another way in.
DVD = 'Die, Vecna, Die!'
DDVD = Die, 'Die, Vecna, Die!'
And beyond pretty blatant rule-breaking and deus ex machina, what being would be powerful enough to truly threaten the Lady? I mean, Orcus's Last Word was powerful enough to slay gods, but a group of Greater Gods banding together could kill him, still.
Actually, it just says that the various pantheon leaders would have gotten together and found a way to neutralize the Last Word.
Hehe. DDVD. I like it.
Unlike most folks here, I rather like DVD. Thus, rather by accident, an event occurs where a group of PCs end up in sigil, with an immortal in their party. This particular immortal is a very special case - his number of hit die and power level change dynamically depending upon his circumstances. For example, if he finds himself in a party of 8th level characters, he becomes an 8 HD character. But, in this particular case, said NPC will be facing the Lady of Pain - and thus gains power equivalent to hers.
Now, I know a large number of you will immediately say, 'can't happen, nothing could match her power level' but, that aside, if it DID happen, what would the consequences be? How would the lady react to finding that she is suddenly confronted with a being exactly as powerful as herself in sigil, which as DVD outlines, is a dire threat to the multiverse?
Whatever spell makes the immortal equal in power to his opponent would have to know the Lady's power, wether the magic is powerfull enough to know what even the game designers don't know is up to the DM.
I think most would tell you, that if he posed any threat to her and has a way to enter the city she would make sure that he never lived long enough to enter it.
When you can travel through time, you can kill your enemies before they get into a position to pose a threat to you. But thats just one of several possibileties, maybe he would really just enter Sigil, flay her, kill the ratatosks, eat the rats und maze the squirrels. DM fiat regardless of the outcome.
"What if Elminster was 50th level?"
"Well, he'd be 50th level, wouldn't he?"
Part of what makes a good setting/story is when there are certain laws even within a fantasy world that help to define it. Without following those laws - or making very specific ways around them - the entire sense of reality for that world is lost.
Vecna used the magic of the Last Word, I believe (or equivalent magic) to enter Sigil, etc. But, as stated before, a coalition of Greater Gods could counteract the magic. So why couldn't the Lady of Pain do the same, since she's proven to be more powerful than all of the other deities - at least while she's in Sigil, and with things related to Sigil?
Vecna used the magic of the Last Word, I believe (or equivalent magic) to enter Sigil, etc. But, as stated before, a coalition of Greater Gods could counteract the magic. So why couldn't the Lady of Pain do the same, since she's proven to be more powerful than all of the other deities - at least while she's in Sigil, and with things related to Sigil?
Tenebrous used the Last Word. Vecna used the same kind of magic, just not that particular Word.
As it stands, the Lady of Pain could do the same...in fact, she did at the end of DVD when she made Sigil immune to that particular magic again. The point was she hadn't before, so she was vulnerable on that front (though, to be fair, no one could have predicted what Vecna was going to do).
Charon, Boatman of the Lower Planes
Tenebrous used the Last Word. Vecna used the same kind of magic, just not that particular Word.
As it stands, the Lady of Pain could do the same...in fact, she did at the end of DVD when she made Sigil immune to that particular magic again. The point was she hadn't before, so she was vulnerable on that front (though, to be fair, no one could have predicted what Vecna was going to do).
If I was the Lady of Pain, I would have shored up Sigil's wards, so to speak, against any use of this ancient type of magic as soon as Tenebrous went around spewing it. Heck, considering how infinite the planes are, and considering how old (eternal?) Sigil is, someone probably tried to do the same thing before. If a little "Abyssal Lord" could do it, why hadn't another deity more suited to it in the first place (a god of lore, lost lore, magic, etc.) done it long before him?
All in all, a very poorly thought out adventure. It's equivalent to someone writing a non-fiction book in which the author makes the sun arbitrarily rotate around the Earth.
Well, it's not a spell that does it, Joker - it's a by-product of how this particular immortal exists.
Yes, but thats just the problem there, the DM has to decide where this ability comes from and if it is powerfull to replicate the power of the lady.
And to do that the DM has to decide how powerfull the lady is in the first place.
Let's take some example of possible ladies:
1. The lady is a greater God herself. Result: whatever it is, at least I won't have to be there to become a real life example of collateral damage when the two powers clash.
2. The Lady is the phyiscal representation of the life force/inherent magic/Souls/etc of every living and unliving being capeable of believe in every plane of existance. Wether the immortal would be able to transform himself into something like that is questionable and up to the DM
3. The lady is three ratatosks with a cape of levitation, a mask of flaying and a staff of mazeing. Result: The Immortal is now as powerfull as a ratatosk. Bad luck for him, as he doen't have the items the "Lady" has.
3. The Lady is an illusion. No change for the immortal.
4. The Lady is the personification of the multiverse itself, keeping it functioning and protecting it from the Far Realm, the existence beyond existence, the door to which is Sigil. The immortal, himself a part of the universe, transforming himself into something as powerfull as the multiverse itself is... not very likely.
You see the problem? These are just four different possibilities, all depending on what the Lady is, there are many more.
Then the quaking stops. The light dims. The Lady floats to the ground. Where the stranger was is now empty, he is there no longer. The Lady glances a scathing glance at the PCs and a dabus (where did he come from? they had been alone a moment ago) steps forth and utters a proclamation. "Leave my city and never return. Return and die."
Primus: The key line is "The Lady and the NPC go to battle and they're equal power."
How do we know that if we don't know the Lady's power? Of course, you could always use the DM fiat, but the point is that if you use Rule 0 too much in regards to the rules of the IC established campaign - NOT the mechanics - the ability to suspend belief is vanished.
Now, this could possibly work up to the end of some great, grand adventure, but the Planescape campaign would never be the same for those people again, and I do not think it would be wise to run a Planescape campaign with them again - because the Lady is not the same. She has been partially defined, and is now less than what she once was, if the PCs know that there are ways to reach her level of power, even if they cannot do it themselves.
The man instantly assumes whatever power level the Lady is at - this is his power, his nature: a creature of perception who becomes what sees him. Whether this is the power of a greater god, some magically powered squirrels, or something else entirely, it doesn't really matter - he gains it.
Then the quaking stops. The light dims. The Lady floats to the ground. Where the stranger was is now empty, he is there no longer. The Lady glances a scathing glance at the PCs and a dabus (where did he come from? they had been alone a moment ago) steps forth and utters a proclamation. "Leave my city and never return. Return and die."
1. I am not a DM, but a player
2. I am not absolutely not familiar with all of planescape or even the rules of many of the planes. I play in it, adore the setting and know what i know
3. I'm *greatly* favored of the idea that the player cannot enter the city and can NEVER enter the city. That would be my personal call.
But, however, if the insistance was to go on with this idea that he did get into the city and even got the chance to challenge the lady (I question his intelligence at this point, my thoughts)
1. WHY?!?!?!?! I dont see a REASON for someone, even that powerful, even with the opportunity, to WANT to do such a thing. She bears no threat, her death bears no promises as to reward. In fact it may hold certain destruction, at the very least the altering of everything as it's known. ANd while there are characters who like randomness, change, and just being evil, none of those are really good reasons to challenge the LoP herself. Even if you actually could.
2. If you still do it and IF you have #1 some considerations:
the LoP came from somewhere. (assuming here that might actually be wrong but for this purpose it's a thought). Someone, something a predecessor a maker whose always remained unseen. Another of her kind. They might not appriciate it.
the LoP regardles of HD- has more plain out experience (being INFINITELY older than everyone else). I doubt the character would have the skills or the intelligence to claim the ability to actually win in a fight. Threaten- maybe. Win? No. It's simply a matter of even if he has her stats and skills, she's got the knowledge.
However, that you already knew, a few other things to throw into the pot of what happens:
The reactions of every other being in sigil. The reactions of every other GOD outside of sigil who may or may not be able to find out. The reactions of the demented and the reactions of the celestials and fiends.
As soon as anyone finds out the LoP is challeneged there is going to be a ripple effect occuring here across the planes. Litterally changing the way of everything, even if she's not defeated. People trying to also enter sigil at the same time, chaos, cage quakes, people fleeing. In a word armageddon even if the multiverse doesnt end.
The ciphers for one would probably instantly flee sigil and depending on what they "see" as the future i can see quite a few going over the wall.
Other possibilities:
Character approaches lady, gains her stats, suddenly sees the universe as she sees it. He's not likely to stay the same, possibly not even stay sane, or end up refusing the power and refusing the challenge and fleeing. To suddenly have that kind of power and have that ind of understanding of the way things are has been known to make people look at it, go "....O.o" and loose it.
The powers that created the lady or such come into play.
Others, who find out about this, come to stop him. from your description he gains the HP equivalent of the average member of what he's facing, ex:
8hd in an 8hd party. not the say 32hd of the combined 4 members. THus, other beings of power in sigil, not on the lady's level, but multiple people come to stop him. To save the multiverse as they know it
And then there's the question of what happens if the LoP is actually defeated (which i dont believe she can be). Perhaps he is immediately by the powers that be placed in her position, forced to be the emotionless ruler of sigil, that the LoP is a rank that a being is placed into, not the being itself. and by doing so, he is forced to become what she was. Without of course the ability to go on the I AM EPIC rampage, all the detriments of the power come along with.
You don't need to know the Lady's power. That's the point.
The man instantly assumes whatever power level the Lady is at - this is his power, his nature: a creature of perception who becomes what sees him. Whether this is the power of a greater god, some magically powered squirrels, or something else entirely, it doesn't really matter - he gains it.
Which ignores my point, really. It lets the players know that even the laws that the DM has stated about the entire theme of the game can be easily tossed out the window whenever he feels like it. It makes it less believable. But it's a wonderful if you want to drive all of your players into being Bleakers.
But if it did happen, as another pointed out, the only result would probably be that the Lady of Pain would win in the end, even if she was "Defeated," because its probably more of an office than an individual. So the players would never know the difference of who won anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, even if a being did defeat the Lady, they'd just replace her. From the perspective of the players the challenger would have been defeated and only the Lady of Pain remains.
I can't remember who said it, but some theologian once mused that if Satan were to succeed at war on the throne, he would be forced to assume all of the qualities of the Godhead.
Perhaps it might even be interesting if you did have the immortal win, and the only change was that the Lady is now the Lord of Pain. It just doesn't have the same ring to it, though, so I'm going to go with the transgendering thing if he wins.
You don't need to know the Lady's power. That's the point.
No, you need to know it, that's the point.
Otherwise there is no way of making your assumption of what might happen more plausible than, for example, nothing happening or the lady lying dead at the feat of the immortal after a cloud of smoke enveloped them both.
Without knowing what they are able to do, you can't tell what they will do.
The immortal does not challenge the lady - he has no idea his power level has gone through the roof (in my campaign, the lady is an overdiety, on the level of FR's Ao). The lady simply reacts to his presence, before he has any idea what is going on. But here's the kicker - nobody in the party knows what happened. The party will be level 12, fighting a losing battle in Ravenloft, and then *click* they find themselves on the infinite staircase, at level 14, most of them vastly changed and/or outsiders, surrounding the bloody corpse of the immortal, with his own sword through his chest and blood all over everyone's hands. The next section of the campaign will be them trying to figure out what happened and what has befallen them in the two years of their missing memories.
However, the whole reason I ask is that I, as a DM, have to know what *really* transpired. My train of thought would be that the Lady, unable to flay the Immortal due to his power level being equal to her own, nevertheless needed him removed from Sigil and demanded (via dabus) that the PCs help her by slaying the immortal. What follows from that is my own problem to work out (the final truth will be that the immortal killed himself, as nobody else could, but why he does it is hidden in mystery until they find a way to bring him back). I just wanted to know if such a course of action would be in character for the Lady.
I'll post it anyway, just think of most of this post as directed at someone else and jump to the end ;)
Even the game Designers wouldn't be able to objectively tell you what kind of action would be objectively "in character" for the Lady (aside from mysteriously gliding through the streets).
If you asked about a character like Asmodeus, Elminster, Shar etc., we would be able to answer your question based on our knowledge of those persons, about their habits, history, alignment, etc.
The problem is, not nearly enough information about the character, power, nature, history, etc. of the LoP has ever been published to to make more than educated guesses about her Serenity.
The LoP is more or less a tool for the DM to mold and use as he wills, used by the game designers to make Sigils ongoing existance plausible. Nearly every action the LoP could take would be plausible, as noone would be able to come up with any proof of it being inplausible.
Her name and the way we speak of her here may often be misleading, but IMO one should not confuse her with normal NPCs. She is more like a location on a map of which you only have the name. You know that something's there, you know where it is and maybe a few other tidbits of information, but what's really there when the PCs reach it is up to the DM to decide.
That all being said and with the information you just gave about the LoP IYC you idea sounds good, go with it and see how it unfolds. Maybe you should let the Lady use proxys other than Dabus' to give the PCs the quest. She probably wouldn't want anyone to know about her "little problem". She could also have sent them visions, where she asks them disguised as an Aasimon to slay the immortal. Just some ideas
Some thoughts: in the module Harbinger House a similiar episode happens when a demi-power does come into being within Sigil. The Lady's reaction is not immediate battle but to escort the demi-power politely/firmly to a nearby portal and send her through (its not really her fault she's in Sigil). From that response it doesn't have to be an epic combat at all. Further, based on how she handles Darkwood in the Faction War it also seems pretty clear to me that the Lady has potent prescient abilities...that is pretty much the same as saying she knows the immortal is coming before he gets there. And she probably can see how things might end based upon different approaches to solving the "problem of the immortal".
So if the PCs & immortal are coming to Sigil for a purpose she probably sees that their purpose is fulfilled upon arrival and that they are sped on their way. If they don't have a purpose they are probably given one in a hurry (or tricked) in such a way that the immortal is out of Sigil before he has a chance to relaize his powers. If the Immortal is about to realize his power he'd probably be mazed (if need be along with anyone else in the vicinity) since once he's in a maze his power is limited to the most powerful person in there with him). Battle is the *last* resort since battle is probably beneath Her Serenity. Even in DVD the Lady doesn't join the fray with Vecna but operates more or less behind the scenes.
From the sounds of your last post you are looking for a Deus ex machina to kill the Immortal so he can be found dead on the I.S. I think most people on the board have implied one way or another that what you are planning on doing (w/the Lady) would probably break their suspension of disbelief. Have you instead considered putting him outside Sigil near the spire where most (or all) of his weird powers would be negated and any ordinary rilmani or petitioner (or whatever) could do the deed?
-Eric Gorman
Interesting thoughts. However, I wanted to bring up a couple of points.
If the Immortal is about to realize his power he'd probably be mazed
This would indeed be Her first choice of action, but as the immortal, unbeknownst to him, has a power level equal to Her own, I do not think She would be able to maze him. He would unconsciously exert normality over the part of sigil She attempted to use to create the maze, and the attempt would (to the casual observer) appear to have no effect. Attempts to flay the intruder would have the same effect.
Keep in mind that the Lady is not a demigod in my campaign, nor is She a god. She is an *overpower*, and the immortal having a power level commensurate with such a status would be an unbelievable disaster to Sgil and by extension the multiverse. In DVD, much ado was raised and the entire cosmology was altered merely by the presence of a greater god, which is far, far below the level of an overpower.
Further, based on how she handles Darkwood in the Faction War it also seems pretty clear to me that the Lady has potent prescient abilities...that is pretty much the same as saying she knows the immortal is coming before he gets there.
I agree. And it might be that the preexisting chain of events was the best possible outcome.
Also
From the sounds of your last post you are looking for a Deus ex machina to kill the Immortal so he can be found dead on the I.S.
Alas, no, if I wanted him dead there are many easier ways to do it. I wanted to specifically involve the Lady and the city of Sigil (which, IMC, has paramount importance in the cosmology) as a way of signifying that greater powers are involved here than mortal men should interfere with. I want the PCs to get the sense they are not playing with fire, they are juggling atomic bombs while standing on a planet made entirely from unstable uranium. Heavy hitters are involved, and the throwdowns are serious and deadly not only to individuals but to entire planes and civilizations. *That* is what I am attempting to convey.
Alas, no, if I wanted him dead there are many easier ways to do it. I wanted to specifically involve the Lady and the city of Sigil (which, IMC, has paramount importance in the cosmology) as a way of signifying that greater powers are involved here than mortal men should interfere with. I want the PCs to get the sense they are not playing with fire, they are juggling atomic bombs while standing on a planet made entirely from unstable uranium. Heavy hitters are involved, and the throwdowns are serious and deadly not only to individuals but to entire planes and civilizations. *That* is what I am attempting to convey.
Then what you have planned is perhaps one of the worst things you could do, if that's the sort of atmosphere that you want to foster among your players. You don't drop them into a new campaign (which moving to Sigil/the Planes practically is) and immediately have them in the conflict between the two most powerful figures on the entire world.
Players are not going to be NEARLY awed enough by the Lady or the Planes if they have to step in because the Lady of Pain can't do something against the Immortal herself. The fact that she asks through help (by proxy or otherwise) from the PCs will certainly not make them feel very much like "little fish in a big pond" - it will do the opposite. Part of Planescape is learning that you should ALWAYS be humble, because there are forces at work far beyond your own power.
If you give the PCs the ability to be on an equal power level as the Lady (or the illusion of it, even), then they are going to get an entirely wrong feel from the Planes. You HAVE to set the Lady up as someone omniscient, something beyond the power of even the deities (Overgods included), at least in her own sphere of influence (Sigil). Hell, she could even be a manifestation of Sigil itself, or of the collective belief of the Dabus, and simply put, as long as Sigil is around, she can never be defeated.
You have to ride that line between giving the PCs satisfaction and making them realize that somewhere on another ladder, the rungs go even higher.
In my campaign, rules exist for beings more powerful than Overpowers. I have stats for them and adventures that involve them, targeted at triple-digit-level characters.
Furthermore, you are correct in stating that having the PCs first experience in Sigil/Planescape be a situation the Lady could not solve herself would be somewhat less than optimal - which is why such an event occurs in the past and the PC's have no memory of it. In working backwards to discover the events that have led to their present predicament, they will slowly learn the realities of the planescape world - which will make the revelation of the true events all that more shocking.
Nevertheless, I am aware that my way is not always the best way, so I am open to suggestions for alternative methods to create this crisis.
I think that's one of the reasons why Faction War didn't go over all that well. Just one of the reasons, mind you.
Why don't you consider having the Athar instead employ them to kill a deity, much in the same way that the Dabus were going to? You don't actually lose any of the feel, and you keep the Lady of Pain omniscient and intact.