I can't seem to find a reference I'm remembering in a Planescape product to a few powerful slaadi lords. One appeared as a golden amoeba, another was...well, I need to find the reference is the point. Anyone remember? Thanks!
Ssendam, Ygorl, Chourst (Lord of Randomness), and Rennbuu (Lord of Colors) all got better descriptions and 2e stats in Dragon #221, in an article by Ed Bonny. Chourst and Rennbuu were created by Ed Bonny, as was Sorel (a death slaad Ygorl is grooming to become the future Lord of Anarchy).
On Hallowed Ground came later, and the information on the Lords of Chaos is based on Ed Bonny's article.
Don't forget Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer. He is a two-headed Slaad Lord that was introduced in Dungeon #101. He will be fleshed out some more in an upcoming Forgotten Realms product devoted to the fiends of the Realms coming out sometime in mid 2005.
Bazim-Gorag is a putz. They think he can swim with the big girls, but she can't. He even stole the second half of their name from me - Gorag... Ygorl... Ygorag... Ygorlag... gory... gore... Igor... Frankenstein? Please.
And thank you. You're welcome.
Ygorl welcome.
And if that Forgotten Realms book tries to tell people I'm evil, I shall be most upset, and so willn't those reaper things from Libris Mortimer, and no one wants that. Except for them. And me. Evil is the lower planes, where we go to eat and lay eggs in things, so that's clearly impossible. If there were evil slaadi, we would have to lay eggs in them.
Which we do.
Entropy rulez, suckahs!
You've just made my day. Just stay away from me with those eggs...
And Slaadi.. In the FR Book of Fiends? *Twitch*
Why do you hurt me so much, 3E? I didn't do anything to you...
And Slaadi.. In the FR Book of Fiends? *Twitch*
Why do you hurt me so much, 3E? I didn't do anything to you...
[sarcasm to crush nations] Maybe they'll tell us that the Slaadi are really descended from the batrachian FR creator race! *GLEE* [/sarcasm to crush nations]
The one sentence in 'Serpent Kingdoms' that should have been struck from print with the wrath of humanity, much like anything James Joyce ever wrote.
It is impossible to convince blue slaadi to do anything! But it is very easy to convince them to eat things and sharpen their claws at him. They are like herding cats! Sometimes we make cat sounds. Slowly fading ones, for entropic purposes.
When batrachian FR (furry?) creator races! *GLEE* are descended into slaadi that is what I call entropy in action! That is also what I call it when I crush nations.
There was a gormeel slaad lord, but I ate him. He was at the very bottom of all slaadi lords, in the same way Asmodeus is at the very bottom of all baatezu lords: the very crappiest of a crappy lot. Even other gormeel used to make fun of him. Asmodeus brags about being on the bottom! So does Apomps. Not like Demogorgon, who is the very middlest of all tanar'ri lords. Tanar'ri know that being at the top or bottom is not such a hot deal. Limbo doesn't have a top or bottom, because I ate them, so I'm the middlest of all slaadi lords too. Only better.
[sarcasm to crush nations] Maybe they'll tell us that the Slaadi are really descended from the batrachian FR creator race! *GLEE* [/sarcasm to crush nations]
The one sentence in 'Serpent Kingdoms' that should have been struck from print with the wrath of humanity, much like anything James Joyce ever wrote.
YES! And tanar'ari are descended from DROW! We all know that all life in the multyverse centers around the PRIME!! Duuhhhhh..
OMG LOLS STFU.
Note: All mistakes are purposeful.
Those scholars are almost certainly wrong. This is just some fun flavor text that was inserted into the book and is assuredly a red herring. It was just idle speculation about what happened to the Batrachians. It was not meant to be taken as canon about the true origin of the Slaadi in the Realms.
However, I do have a theory that ties the Slaad to the Batrachians. I speculate that the Slaad are not frog-shaped because they were descended from the Batrachians but rather because the Spawning Stone was created/activated during the time that the Batrachians were the predominant race in Faerun.
Reasons for this might include the Batrachians having something to do with the origin of the Spawning Stone. Or because eithter Ssendam or Ygorl might possibly be an ascended Batrachian and imposed their own shape on the lesser slaad. Or because Ssendam and Ygorl could not decide on a shape so they chose the form of the very next petitioner to appear in Limbo as the one they would use as the mold for all Slaadi and that petitioner turned out to be a Batrachian. Or maybe the Slaadi were serving as Angels and messengers for the Batrachian gods and the Batrachian deities chose the form.
Who knows the real reason? But I find the question intriguing...
Congradulations, Tree.
And the Outer Planes, Limbo and the SLaadi included, have been around for a lot longer than Abeir-Toril, so the entire speculation is off.
To be fair the sentence does not say that Slaad are descended from Batrachians but rather that some scholars in Faerun think they might be.
Those scholars are almost certainly wrong.
It was not meant to be taken as canon about the true origin of the Slaadi in the Realms.
Repeatedly justifying the numerous FR cosmological muckups by blaming it on the clueless sages gets really old really fast.
He even said on these forums somehwere that the next time he writes anything about the Slaad or Batrachians he will craft a suitably contradictory and even wilder theory. :coolcthul
You have to read the sentence in context and with a sense of humor.
Eric is very respectful of continuity. No one is trying to ruin the Slaad for you. Especially not him.
Of course, since the FR cosmos is separate from the Great Wheel, anything they establish regarding the Planes continuity-wise does not affect the Great Wheel or the Planescape setting, so no one should really sweat it anyway.
By the way, if the Slaadi are chaos incarnate, shouldn't they have multiple contradictory origins anyway? If time flows randomly in Limbo, maybe their origin gets overwritten and changed everyday!
All of that is assuming that the FR Tree is even in the same Cosmology as Limbo, since the Batrachians have never been mentioned in any other cosmology. Since the two cosmologies are separate, the subject is moot. We have also never seen references to the Slaadi serving any power as a whole in 1E or 2E, so that subject is also moot. The Slaadi are chaos incarnate, and they should stay that way.
And the Outer Planes, Limbo and the SLaadi included, have been around for a lot longer than Abeir-Toril, so the entire speculation is off.
Well you just might be right, but don't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
1) Batrachians are said to have lived and vanished over 30,000 years ago. As far as I know that is pretty far back according to a lot of the campaign setting timelines I have seen. It could have been contemporaneous with the creation of the Spawning Stone that fixed the Slaadi into their castes and froggy shapes.
2) Even though the outerplanes, limbo and the slaadi have been around longer than Toril, there are hints that they have not always had the forms and configurations that they take today. Things could have been radically different 30,000 years ago.
3) The Slaadi may be very old but they didn't always have the Spawing Stone. It was created to limit their chaoticness and fix them in rigid forms. We don't know how recent or ancient an artifcat it is. Maybe Rip or Shemmy or some one knows...
4) The Batrachians were the forerunners of the Bullywugs and Sivs and Dopplegangers and other amphibious lifeforms that certainly do have a presence in other campaign settings and cosmologies. Who's to say that before the elves and humans came on the scene that amphiboid races were not more common.
5) I know of at least one god--Ramenos--that is frog-shaped and has a cross-planar presence. It could be that there used to be more amphibious pantheons who were more wide-spread across the planes some millenia ago.
6) The fact that we do not see Slaadi serving any gods these days might actually explain the absence of amphibioid pantheons in the current era. Maybe the Slaadi did used to serve these hypothetical gods but then got bored, rebelled and ate them all. ;)
7) speculation is just my way of sharing thoughts and spurring discussion. If I am wrong, then I'm wrong, but it's fun to think about at least, isn't it?
1) Batrachians are said to have lived and vanished over 30,000 years ago. As far as I know that is pretty far back according to a lot of the campaign setting timelines I have seen. It could have been contemporaneous with the creation of the Spawning Stone that fixed the Slaadi into their castes and froggy shapes.
A drop in the bucket when the fairly eternal timeline - or at least one so old that not even the Fraternity of Order has the records on it - of the Outer Planes is taken into consideration.
2) Even though the outerplanes, limbo and the slaadi have been around longer than Toril, there are hints that they have not always had the forms and configurations that they take today. Things could have been radically different 30,000 years ago.
I can't remember anything like this off the top of my head, but I'll make sure to take a look in Planes of Chaos. Unless it's stated in one of the Dragon articles that were mentioned above?
3) The Slaadi may be very old but they didn't always have the Spawing Stone. It was created to limit their chaoticness and fix them in rigid forms. We don't know how recent or ancient an artifcat it is. Maybe Rip or Shemmy or some one knows...
One can assume older than pretty much anything known to sentient beings since no one even remembers, or has recorded, what the "original" forms of the Slaadi were.
4) The Batrachians were the forerunners of the Bullywugs and Sivs and Dopplegangers and other amphibious lifeforms that certainly do have a presence in other campaign settings and cosmologies. Who's to say that before the elves and humans came on the scene that amphiboid races were not more common.
I didn't argue anything about that. The Batrachians were the forerunners of the Bullywugs/Sivs/etc. in the Faerunian Cosmology. One cannot extend them beyond that because they had never been brought up outside of it. And I didn't mention anything about how common or uncommon amphibian races were anywhere at any time.
5) I know of at least one god--Ramenos--that is frog-shaped and has a cross-planar presence. It could be that there used to be more amphibious pantheons who were more wide-spread across the planes some millenia ago.
Once more, I am not questioning the importance of the amphibian races at all. The above statement has absolutely nothing to do with how influential the Batrachian race was on Limbo. Considering the collective philosophies of Chaos from an infinite number of Prime Material worlds is what shapes Limbo, I doubt one race from one world would have enough influence to affect the inhabitants of Limbo on such a large, long-term scale.
6) The fact that we do not see Slaadi serving any gods these days might actually explain the absence of amphibioid pantheons in the current era. Maybe the Slaadi did used to serve these hypothetical gods but then got bored, rebelled and ate them all.
Or maybe they never served them in the first place. Or maybe some do, but some don't, and it's always been like that. This particular part of the conversation cannot be had until more information is garnered, and if there is none withstanding, any assumptions that are made are automatically false without proof on the Affirmative's behalf, according to typical laws of debate.
Merely discussing and speculating. I don't claim that my hypotheses are infallible conclusions. I'm just expressing idle musings and my sense of wonder at the grandeur of the planes. If it's a debate you want I gladly concede and pronounce you the winner!
I can't remember anything like this off the top of my head, but I'll make sure to take a look in Planes of Chaos. Unless it's stated in one of the Dragon articles that were mentioned above?
Throughout the Planescape line in general there are most certainly indications that races have come and gone. The talk about Baatezu origins and their precursors is a better-known example. So yeah, the Planes are ancient but this doesn't preclude the origin of a race being less than 30,000 years ago.
I'd agree that it would be hokey for a FR product to presume to create canon material for what is clearly part of the traditional sphere of another campaign setting. But it seems likely to me that the author of Serpent Kingdoms meant to spout off a wild theory that a good portion of experienced readers would "recognize" as screed.
Throughout the Planescape line in general there are most certainly indications that races have come and gone. The talk about Baatezu origins and their precursors is a better-known example. So yeah, the Planes are ancient but this doesn't preclude the origin of a race being less than 30,000 years ago.
The Mimir speculated (in Magnum Opus' Musee Arcane) that the reason so many fiends posess a reptillian counternance is that they first "evolved" at a time when reptillian races were dominant in the Material Plane. The "ancient amphibian precursor" theory would certainly help explain why there are slaadi, hydroloths, and hezrou - count 'em, three planar frog things. Oh, and quasits have their toad form too. I feel like there should be some celestial frogs to balance out the equation.
I don't really know whether I like the idea that dopplegangers are amphibians, though. I like Keith Baker's notion that dopplegangers are immature mimics. I also like Roger E. Moore's idea that they were engineered as living weapons by the ancient Suel Imperium.
Personally, I've always favored the idea that slaadi look froggish simply because that's the most efficient thing for a native of Limbo to be (capable of efficiently moving through sudden changes from solid ground to liquid, and hopping through gulfs of gaseous regions)- oh, and also frogs are symbolic of Chaos. Note how profoundly they transform throughout their lives, note how they're associated with the chaotic (and transformative) element of water, and note how the Egyptian Ogdoad of primal chaos-gods was depicted with frog heads - well, half of them, anyway.
The "ancient amphibian precursor" theory would certainly help explain why there are slaadi, hydroloths, and hezrou - count 'em, three planar frog things. Oh, and quasits have their toad form too. I feel like there should be some celestial frogs to balance out the equation.
On that note, why are there so many elephants (Hollyphant, Baku and Maelephant, which incidentally form a triad of good, neutral and evil)? Was there also an ancient race of pachyderms that ruled over a swathe of the multiverse?
The Mimir speculated (in Magnum Opus' Musee Arcane) that the reason so many fiends posess a reptillian counternance is that they first "evolved" at a time when reptillian races were dominant in the Material Plane. The "ancient amphibian precursor" theory would certainly help explain why there are slaadi, hydroloths, and hezrou - count 'em, three planar frog things. Oh, and quasits have their toad form too. I feel like there should be some celestial frogs to balance out the equation.
Interesting, but I'm not sure if I'd buy that on a purely opinion level, merely because out of the infinite Prime Worlds, what's the chances that so many of them were dominated by a reptilian race at one time (and no longer are) so much that they influenced the entire evolution of a fiendish race? I mean, sure, they may have held sway over dozens, hundreds, or maybe even thousands of Prime planes, but... That's still not much of infinity. Does that make sense, or am I talking crazy talk
Personally, I've always favored the idea that slaadi look froggish simply because that's the most efficient thing for a native of Limbo to be (capable of efficiently moving through sudden changes from solid ground to liquid, and hopping through gulfs of gaseous regions)- oh, and also frogs are symbolic of Chaos. Note how profoundly they transform throughout their lives, note how they're associated with the chaotic (and transformative) element of water, and note how the Egyptian Ogdoad of primal chaos-gods was depicted with frog heads - well, half of them, anyway.
Now that is something solid that I can sink my teeth into! I like that reasoning behind the Slaadi forms much more than the influence of a single race from a Prime world.
On that note, why are there so many elephants (Hollyphant, Baku and Maelephant, which incidentally form a triad of good, neutral and evil)? Was there also an ancient race of pachyderms that ruled over a swathe of the multiverse?
And how about insectoid races? Or leonine or equine ones? The latter two have been a very common theme since 1E, obviously.
Sure, saying that one ancient extinct froggy race on one prime world is not statistically significant to influence the multiverse sounds logical at first. But it breaks down when you make that argument in reverse. One could suggest that the known set of worlds that have human populations is effectively zero when divided by infinity so by that reasoning humans can't really have possibly made any kind of impact on the planes.
And yet humans and elves and other races have made a demonstrable impact on the multiverse. So much so that a high percentage of the powers on the planes appear humanoid.
From that one can infer that there must be a significant percentage of the "infinite" prime worlds that are populated by humans. Same with elves and dwarves and the other races.
One can also infer that there must be or have been a significant percentage of the infinite prime worlds that are (or at least were at one time) inhabited by froggy or amphibious peoples. I can't prove it but there is sound logic supporting the inference.
Why do all these infinite worlds have humans and elves and bullywugs and orcs? Well, there are a few theories that might account for it. Parallel evolution is one explanation, the idea that these racial forms just happened to evolve on various worlds simultaneously by chance.
Alternatively the planets could have been seeded by progenitor races or gods which might explain the preponderance of certain races.
Thirdly one might suppose some sort of physical laws (whether environmental or magical or divine) that guide species along specific pathways to evolve into the racial phenotypes that predominate the multiverse.
Lastly, there is a notion that "phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny" which is the phenomenon observed in how embryos develop in stages by progressing through forms of more primitive ancestral organisms (such as fish, tadpole, lizard, primitive mammal, etc... on up the food chain.) The idea is that primitive worlds likewise mature through phases of development where the dominant races might be sequentially primordial (oozes and such) then aquatic, then insectoid, followed by reptilian, amphibian, avian, and mammalian, humanoid, demi-human and finally human and afterwards whatever races are beyond human. Certainly illithids and beholders would argue that they are the higher life-forms and the natural progression or endpoint of planetary evolution.
Whether phylogeny actually does recapitulate ontogeny in the development of prime worlds is yet to be proven but it is a persistent and common theme in various worlds and campaign settings.
However, you may not want to discuss this notion with a Lizardman or a Yuan-Ti because they might be upset that you view them as a more primitive lifeform and would probably eat your spleen.
The way I deal with it is by saying that the planes we know are only the very edge of existence, that there are powers and races out there that we cannot even conceive of. There are even other races of 'exemplars' - the Slaadi are just the only ones we have encountered in our tiny corner of the multiverse. The problem is that we can never really reach the other areas of existence, because they're an infinite distance away from our reality, and they can't be reached from Sigil because the city of doors exists only in our sector of creation.
Just more food for thought.
If the Prime is infinite, then there will be an infinite number of worlds inhabited by humans as well as an infinite number of worlds inhabited by batrachians and an infinite number of uninhabited worlds.
Not necessarily. Because the Material Plane is infinite doesn't mean it has an infinite number of worlds in in it. If it does happen to have an infinite number of worlds, that doesn't necessarily imply that an infinite number of them are inhabited. Even if an infinite number of them are inhabited, maybe only one or two have humans on them.
That's the problem with infinity: it encompasses quite literally everything that could possibly exist.
That's not what infinity means. The set of all positive integers is infinite, but there are many other numbers not included in that set. A plane can be an endless void (like the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum) and, theoretically, have no inhabitants at all. That doesn't make it any less infinite.
Not necessarily. Because the Material Plane is infinite doesn't mean it has an infinite number of worlds in in it. If it does happen to have an infinite number of worlds, that doesn't necessarily imply that an infinite number of them are inhabited. Even if an infinite number of them are inhabited, maybe only one or two have humans on them.
If the Prime is infinite then it will have an infinite number of worlds - if some worlds can exist naturally, then in an endless universe the conditions for their existence will occur an infinite number of times. If world A is inhabited by humans, that shows that humans can naturally come into being under the laws of the plane, and so there will be other worlds inhabited by humans. In fact, there will be an infinite number of worlds identical to world A, although they will be an infinite distance away, so far apart from one another that they might as well be in totally different realities.
That's not what infinity means. The set of all positive integers is infinite, but there are many other numbers not included in that set. A plane can be an endless void (like the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum) and, theoretically, have no inhabitants at all. That doesn't make it any less infinite.
Boundless infinity does mean everything that could possibly exist, but the set of all positive integers is a selective group - it contains everything that could possibly exist that also fits the description of a positive integer (in the same way that an infinite list of numbers won't contain a green monkey - because green monkeys aren't numbers - but will still be infinite). The same goes for the planes: the Prime contains everything that could possibly exist that also could exist within the natural laws of the plane.
The plane of Vacuum isn't an endless void: it contains everything that could possibly exist within the conditions of the plane (including vacuum creatures, fortresses and pockets of matter from other planes). However, since the most naturally occurring thing in vacuum is the void itself, the infinite number of things that aren't void are swamped by the nothingness.
The problem is that different infinites can be larger or smaller than one another (don't blame me, blame Stephen Hawking), and also that the human mind cannot conceive of infinity.
Infinity is endless. If it is at all possible for something to exist within an infinite environment given the conditions, then it will exist as often as the right situation occurs (which, in an infinite universe, will be an infinite number of times). If an infinite number of monkeys are locked in a room with an infinite number of typewriters, it isn't a possibility that they might eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare, it's a certainty - and they will do it in the minimum amount of time possible. Unfortunately, for every one monkey of the infinite number of monkeys that manage to write out the works of the bard, another infinite number of monkeys will have failed to do so altogether.
Not necessarily. Because the Material Plane is infinite doesn't mean it has an infinite number of worlds in in it. If it does happen to have an infinite number of worlds, that doesn't necessarily imply that an infinite number of them are inhabited. Even if an infinite number of them are inhabited, maybe only one or two have humans on them.
What Rip said. All we have to go by are a subset of worlds for sure (Cerilia, Abeir-Toril, Dragonlance, etc.), so if we're going to extrapolate any probable conclusions from worlds, those are all we really have to go on. It's similar to taking a sample 100 people and trying to base general statistics off of that. That's not necessarily the -best- way to do things, but it's still done today merely because it's impossible to count every single person/instance/etc. It's even more true with the Planes.
So, out of all of the "known" Prime Material Worlds from the above subset, only one has had a major amphibiian empire that was supposedly the progenitor of all later amphibian races. So, one world out of all of the known ones in which the Batrachians had a major influence doesn't look very good in terms of sheer probability.
I mean, even a part of infinity (only 'some' of the Prime Material worlds are inhabited) is still infinite. It's like a finite infinity versus an infinite infinity.
Of course, as wonderful as Planescape is, I'm not sure the designers took all of the above mathematical concepts into account completely. So it can be best assumed that there are an infinite number of Prime Material worlds because that's the easiest conclusion from the statement that the Prime Material Plane is infinite. At least, that's what I'm going to believe.
Until a Guvner shows me, for show, otherwise, of course.
Faceless One, your analysis reminds me of the argument as to whether or not the universe was infinite, and when it was being suggested as such, at the time, why we were not completely blinded by an absolute infinite number of stars shining at us from all directions.
Because we only can see the number of stars that are a distance from us where their light can have reached us in the lifetime of the universe, with the others simply not having had enough time to reach our corner of the void? ;)
OC: Remember that D&D physics is more similar to Aristotelian physics than to our modern conception of physics.
If a prime world can come into existence within the Prime, then because of the endless nature of the plane it is a certainty that those same conditions will exist elsewhere. It's nothing like taking a sample of 100 people, because that sample is taken out of a finite population (and even then a decent sample will usually show a rough trend). If something can exist in infinity, then it will. Everything suggested by any sample will exist (in infinite quantities), and an infinite number more.
Infinity is abstract. It only exists as a mathematical concept, not in reality - there is nothing in the universe that exists in an infinite quantity. As such, the planes work in a totally different way to reality, and are actually impossible.
Anyway... what Sildatorak said.
Because we only can see the number of stars that are a distance from us where their light can have reached us in the lifetime of the universe, with the others simply not having had enough time to reach our corner of the void?
Remember that a subset of infinity is still infinity. ;)
Light traveling over time? What a ridiculous suggestionion! Next thing you know you'll be trying to say that things fall because there is an attractive force between massive bodies, when any gully prime knows that it is simply because the natural state of things of the earth to seek the lowest level.
F = G*(M*m/r^2), anyone? Delicious. *Shiver of delight... Shiffty eyes* I don't experience euphoria from physics. I swear.
...also because stars are moving away from us (as the universe is expanding). If the universe started contracting, it is supposed that we would be blinded by the light (except that we would all be dead by that stage anyway).
Of course, it should also be noted that there is no way that the stars could be moving away from us faster than the photons are moving towards us, too. So, if the universe was infinite (which it has been proven that it is not), we would be inundated with photons via the (Somethingorother) Paradox.
Now, since it's not infinite, the question really isn't up in the air. But it's just that all of the talking about infinity reminded me of it - not that I thought it necessarily applied in the D&D world.
If a prime world can come into existence within the Prime, then because of the endless nature of the plane it is a certainty that those same conditions will exist elsewhere. It's nothing like taking a sample of 100 people, because that sample is taken out of a finite population (and even then a decent sample will usually show a rough trend). If something can exist in infinity, then it will. Everything suggested by any sample will exist (in infinite quantities), and an infinite number more.
As I said, obviously in this case taking a sample would be wrong (since we do not have an infinite population on Earth, obviously), but it is not within our knowledge (or capabilities of reasoning, really), to take into account the fact that there are an infinite number of Prime Worlds with an infinite number of members of each race, and apply that through some equation (if it even exists) for figuring out even a vague idea of just how much influence a singular race's belief has on X Plane during X period of history.
So the idea of sampling (the number of known/detailed Prime Worlds in which Batrachians are mentioned in comparison to those who are not) was a statement about practicality (in recognizing the limits of our puny human minds, and in only having a fuzzy idea about how faith really influences the Outer Planes) rather than perfect accuracy.
.... Apologizes if anyone was harmed by my pretentiousness about the physics stuff. *Hangs head*
EDIT: For some reason, having discussions/arguments on this board is so much more fun/gratifying than having arguments on the FR board. I wonder why....
So the idea of sampling (the number of known/detailed Prime Worlds in which Batrachians are mentioned in comparison to those who are not) was a statement about practicality (in recognizing the limits of our puny human minds, and in only having a fuzzy idea about how faith really influences the Outer Planes) rather than perfect accuracy.
Yep, agree with you on that.
I think perhaps we shouldn't scrutinise the physics of the planes too much... they might fall apart.
In real life, I would totally be a Guvner. Or a Dustman. Or an Incantifer...
That's the fun of the Factions. They all have little loopholes in philosophy that allow them to link to each other...
Remember that a subset of infinity is still infinity. ;)
I'm not sure if you were trying to say otherwise, but I'll point out that not all subsets of infinity are infinite. 2 liters of water is a valid subset of an infinite ocean of water. Two liters is only infinite by Zeno's standards.
Faceless: But.. But I want to be a Guvner and do what Eluvan said! :D
Oh, all right then.
Bleak Cabal all the way!
(From :raincloud to
)If the Prime is infinite then it will have an infinite number of worlds - if some worlds can exist naturally, then in an endless universe the conditions for their existence will occur an infinite number of times.
I agree with that, but consider that the possibility that no worlds can exist "naturally" on the Material Plane. Perhaps they're all artificial creations by a finite group of gods, who are themselves artificial creations of a finite group of greater powers who themselves may be eternal, with no origin and no beginning.
I agree with that, but consider that the possibility that no worlds can exist "naturally" on the Material Plane. Perhaps they're all artificial creations by a finite group of gods, who are themselves artificial creations of a finite group of greater powers who themselves may be eternal, with no origin and no beginning.
That's a good point. If worlds are the creation of an external finite force, then sure.
I'm not sure if you were trying to say otherwise, but I'll point out that not all subsets of infinity are infinite. 2 liters of water is a valid subset of an infinite ocean of water. Two liters is only infinite by Zeno's standards.
If you have a specific number (such as 2 liters), sure, then it's finite. But if you merely say "some" or "a few of" a given infinity, there's really no bounds to it, so it would still be infinity. For instance, saying from 1 to 2 out of infinity. Well, between 1 and 2 there is an infinite infinity all by itself.
Next thing you know you'll be trying to say that things fall because there is an attractive force between massive bodies, when any gully prime knows that it is simply because the natural state of things of the earth to seek the lowest level.
Actually, it isn't natural at all. This is a result of the fiends' greed, trying to draw everything on the prime to the Lower Planes. That's why things fall down. Fortunately, the ground of the material world is enough, for now, to break the fall.
But have you looked at the number of evil creatures that roam the underdark and constantly carve it out? They're trying, slowly, to break the world so that everything on the Prime will finally fall in the lower planes.
