And so I read "known among the Immortals as the Nucleus of the Spheres". Then, all these thoughts came to me;
- (Immortals... Spheres...) Why would the Immortals call it that?
-The Spheres are the sources of power to the Immortals (at least as see and understand it).
-the NotS is also a power plant; "This power plant, known as...", and "the ability to produce the Radiance and enable mortals to attain Immortality..."
-I looked up the word nucleus (just to make sure of my line of thinking) and read things like "a kernal... a central mass" as well as the central part of many cells.
-Nucleus of the Spheres, plural. So this device is the kernal/center of each of the spheres? Or perhaps it is the combination of power from each sphere! As the gaz says, "Immortals from the other Spheres did not see this development as a good thing, for the power of the Nucleus to assist the Sphere of Energy seriously unbalanced the equilibrium among the spheres".
-It can bestow Immortality because it contains all the Spheres. There's no sponsor to "channel" a sphere's power to create another Immortal. Is this because, in fact, an Immortal created by the NotS belongs to all the spheres at the same time?
-So the NotS has the power to affect all the spheres. Of course some Immortals, out of fear I'd say, cursed it to drained magic! But this would just alter how the NotS affected the spheres, not the fact that it will still affect them all.
I think that in the beginning, when the Immortals first discovered the NotS, they understood that it was connected to essence of each of the Spheres of Power in perfect harmony and balance. But then, Immortals being the child-like creatures that they are, had to alter it (the first Immortals of the Sphere of Energy that bestowed their magic upon it). This changed the balance of the Spheres within it, thus Immortals from the Spheres of Time, Matter, and Thought altered it again! The balance is still broken and this is why it will continue to affect the material plane's Mystara in one way or another. Could the Immortals have changed their thinking about the NotS to believe that it is the cause of the inbalances among the spheres, when in actual fact, it is them that are causing all these negative and disruptive side affects?
All right, now that I think I have caught up with everyone, feel free to *lol* at my slowness. OTOH, if I'm totally off-my-rocker, please set straight and explain this to me
---------------- My players kindly keep out of this thread!!---------------
Interesting read, Hugin!
Before I start commenting, I just wanted to point you to two other threads here at the board that might hold some interest for you:
Thread on the Radiance:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=230626
Thread on Philosophy of Glantri:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=199792
Anyhow, back to this matter of the Nucleus. I have read and re-read your post a couple of times, and I have to tell you that I think it is a coincidence
If there is indeed a connection, meaning that the NoS is THE nucleus of the four spheres of power that all immortals except entropic ones are connected to, I think eventually some author would have mentioned it somewhere - in WotI or some other product.Besides, I fail to see why a part of a machine - an item of technology - would suddenly become the nucleus of the spheres of power?? We know from adventures such as Duchy of Ten that immortals existed in Blackmoor pre-great rain of fire. Supposedly, the spheres of power also existed back then. But back then Blackmoor had, if I recall correctly, not yet reached its technological peak and thus the Blackmoor device beneath present day Glantri would not have existed either. So what tied the four spheres together back then?
I do, however, find your thoughts on the effects of the NoS on the four spheres interesting, although I disagree with your line of thinking. I am not sure where your quotes are from, but I have read Gaz. 3 Glantri page 4 and page 78 + 79 several times and my understanding is this:
1) The F.S.S. Beagle crashed at where Glantri City is today. Seeing as the area was covered in ice, Blackmoorians retrieved enough technology from the wreckage to start their own rocketing civilization.
2) Rain of Fire. Ice receedes from Glantri. Elves come by. A small local cataclysm, when some part of the Beagle explodes. Elves go underground. Some emerge to the south and go to Minrothad. Others remain underground and become Shadow Elves and Schattenalfen.
3) Flaems and Alhambra elves return to Glantri around 400 AC and discover the Radiance.
4) Immortals of all the spheres, according to Khoronus, knew of the artifact before Disciples of Energy transformed it - hoping to create more immortals of energy and promote the sphere's influence.
5) Page 78: "Energy had sinned, and it was up to Time, Thought and Matter to reestablish the balance of the Universe - and so we did"..."Thus it was that our servants secretly altered the artifact's powers".
6) "What energy ignored is that power came at a dear cost: each use of the artifact forever drained some magic from the Prime Material Plane. Such was our sentence".
7) "There will be a time for mankind when magic will yield to the coming of technology"..."Magic and Immortality shan't stand in their way. Such is the Law of Immortals".
What I conclude from the above is that the Immortals of Energy - even Rad and Ixion - are unaware that magic is being drained - or at least why. The immortals of the other spheres have concealed their alterations so well.
That then explains why Rad continues to have the Brotherhood of Rad, which uses the Radiance. As explained by someone in the thread "Philosophy of Glantri" Rad is probably trying to build a state in which every citizen has an opportunity to achieve power through magic without having to bow to immortals. He is advancing an entirely new concept of independence from immortals - of self-reliance. I like that idea, because it always puzzled me why he would continue to use Radiance if he knew it was draining magic from Mystara? Well, now we know that he doesn't know. Perhaps he even thinks that the Radiance can provide him with answers to why magic is slowly draining?
I haven't read the Shadowelf gaz for a long time, so I can say very little about why Rafiel has instructed the Shadow Elves to build the Chamber of the Spheres. Was it just to give them technology and an energy source to protect them? After all, he is a Blackmoor scientist and thinks like one...
In my campaign I plan to eventually have the PCs use the CoS somehow to return magic to Mystara after much of it has been drained by the NoS. I like the notion that these two powerful machines can negate each other's effect.
Let me know what you think about all the stuff, I just wrote!
:-) Jesper
Something I failed to mention about how my line of thought was that it's not the device that is connected to the spheres, but the actual nuclear reaction itself. I'm not even sure how it all works out, but nuclear reactions (all of them, including stars) some how relate to the power of the spheres. Gotta go but thats how I was thinking. (And I haven't dismissed the fact that I'm completely off-base here either, I just found the possibilities very appealing!)
Anyhow, back to this matter of the Nucleus. I have read and re-read your post a couple of times, and I have to tell you that I think it is a coincidence
First of all, sorry for the haphazard layout of my original post. There was a lot of thoughts swirling around in my head at once and I was trying to give some form to it all. What I'm exploring right now is the possibility that the reactions within the device known as the NotS are connected to the spheres and, in some sense, represent a kernal of each of the spheres all at once, including the Sphere of Entropy. The NotS is important because of it's connection to the spheres (i.e. it can tap into each of the Spheres of Power). I'm not trying to suggest that it is THE Nucleus or center of the Spheres, just a conduit.
Besides, I fail to see why a part of a machine - an item of technology - would suddenly become the nucleus of the spheres of power?? We know from adventures such as Duchy of Ten that immortals existed in Blackmoor pre-great rain of fire. Supposedly, the spheres of power also existed back then. But back then Blackmoor had, if I recall correctly, not yet reached its technological peak and thus the Blackmoor device beneath present day Glantri would not have existed either. So what tied the four spheres together back then?
Absolutely true. Like I said, the NotS is merely connected to the Spheres. How I'm looking at it so far is similar to our discussion about how the different levels of prominence a Sphere has on a plane of existence affects the power of an Immortal. The NotS could alter the balance of the Spheres, from its present state in and around Mystara, to different levels, as on some other planes. That is what makes the Immortals so concerned; at present the Spheres in the Prime Plane are all balanced (AFAIK) giving no Immortals an advantage, but this conduit to the Spheres has the capacity to change this (at least around Mystara AND Pandius!).
I do, however, find your thoughts on the effects of the NoS on the four spheres interesting, although I disagree with your line of thinking. I am not sure where your quotes are from, but I have read Gaz. 3 Glantri page 4 and page 78 + 79 several times and my understanding is this:
The quotes are from gaz 13 (again, sorry) The Shadow Elves DM's guide pg. 9.
4) Immortals of all the spheres, according to Khoronus, knew of the artifact before Disciples of Energy transformed it - hoping to create more immortals of energy and promote the sphere's influence.
It just realized that the Wrath of the Immortals has a slightly different story (or perhaps just more info); in it an Old One found it first and placed it as "an experiment in creating a whole new kind of Immortal".
It seems to conflict itself in the same paragraph. In the second one under "The First Alteration of the Engines", it says "an Old One... discovered... [and] realized... the Radiance, had the potential to enable mortals to achieve Immortality in the Sphere of Energy without help from an Immortal sponsor." The very next sentence says "he or she... changed it to make it capable of granting Immortality to those who fully mastered its secrets." So was it capable before of after the alteration?
I'd say before since that is what made it interesting in the first place.5) Page 78: "Energy had sinned, and it was up to Time, Thought and Matter to reestablish the balance of the Universe - and so we did"..."Thus it was that our servants secretly altered the artifact's powers".
6) "What energy ignored is that power came at a dear cost: each use of the artifact forever drained some magic from the Prime Material Plane. Such was our sentence".
According to the WotI, "Meeting secretly, a full council of Hierarchs agreed that, left unchecked, the artifact would create an imbalance between the Five Spheres, as well as undercutting their own authority. They therefore altered the device so that every time it was used, it leeched power from the Sphere of Energy, diminishing the sum total of magic available to the world of Mystara. It thus became the responsibility of the senior Immortals of that sphere to restrict the Radiance's use"
What I get from this is:
-to have a full council of hierarchs there must be one from each Sphere, thereby including one from Energy.
-the NotS affects the five Spheres (connected to all five, as I'm currently looking into it).
-the hierarch of Energy not only knew about the change, it was his responsibility to restrict its use, but not totally forbid it.
-it must have been decided that knowledge of this change was to be kept o the hierarchs only, otherwise Ixion and Ilsundal would have just told Rad what was going on, and relied on his "authority" as a hierarch. Of course, Rad rebelled, as it was stated earlier in WotI that Immortals created by the Radiance somehow undercut authority.
What I conclude from the above is that the Immortals of Energy - even Rad and Ixion - are unaware that magic is being drained - or at least why. The immortals of the other spheres have concealed their alterations so well.
That then explains why Rad continues to have the Brotherhood of Rad, which uses the Radiance. As explained by someone in the thread "Philosophy of Glantri" Rad is probably trying to build a state in which every citizen has an opportunity to achieve power through magic without having to bow to immortals. He is advancing an entirely new concept of independence from immortals - of self-reliance. I like that idea, because it always puzzled me why he would continue to use Radiance if he knew it was draining magic from Mystara? Well, now we know that he doesn't know. Perhaps he even thinks that the Radiance can provide him with answers to why magic is slowly draining?
As it said in WotI, there must have been at least one hierarch of Energy in that secret council, so I'd say Ixion must have known but been bound not to say anything to anyboby else. Ixion was supposed to rely on has authority as hierarch to keep Rad in line. The rebellion of Rad to his authority is the underlying point of why sides were drawn (IMHO of course).
I haven't read the Shadowelf gaz for a long time, so I can say very little about why Rafiel has instructed the Shadow Elves to build the Chamber of the Spheres. Was it just to give them technology and an energy source to protect them? After all, he is a Blackmoor scientist and thinks like one...
This is something I know little about as well and has confused me a bit (have to find more time for reading). Is the Chamber identical to the NotS or what?
In my campaign I plan to eventually have the PCs use the CoS somehow to return magic to Mystara after much of it has been drained by the NoS. I like the notion that these two powerful machines can negate each other's effect.
As I would see it under my current "theory", if the CotS is similar to the NotS, then it too would be a conduit to the power of the Spheres, and through its connection (unaltered and "pure" of Immortal tinkering) it could "flow the other way".
Let me know what you think about all the stuff, I just wrote!
Well Jesper, once again we're embroiled in a fantastic discussion; Thanks!. I'm really interested in what all you other experts out there think as well. (Now that I'm hopefully making more sense!)
I never read the WotI, which is why I didn't know about the Old One etc. (in fact, I never fully understood what the Old Ones are, not having read the golden Immortal boxed set either)
I agree that the NotS had the potential to unbalance the Universe because it could produce more Energy and more Immortals of Energy and thus unbalance the balance between the 5 spheres. In Gaz 3 it says something like "the sphere of Energy were to be punished via the very thing that they sought to use to gain an advantage". So I don't think the NotS has the potential to create Immortals of other spheres - particularly after it was altered by the Servants of Energy / Old One the first time. That was your point wasn't it?
I found this in Gaz 13, page 26-27 about the CotS:
"The Chamber of the Spheres is actually a nuclear reactor, so it combines technological and magical principles, making it very strange".
And page 45:
"Rafiel's injunctions to the Shadow Elves revolve around one purpose: to work in the Chamber of Spheres to build a nuclear reactor. This is almost identical to the Nucleus of the Spheres in Glantri and it offers immense potential for the growth of the Sphere of Energy. Since the work of the shamans is unknown to others - and in particular, no other Immortals know of this work - Rafiel's project could be the most important in the whole of the Known World. Rafiel is not just channeling his shamans to do this work for the benefit of the Sphere of Energy. Even after aeons, Rafiel is deeply fearful of the intense shock done to his consciousness by the Rain of Fire. Successful building of the Artifact in the City of Stars is a form of reassurance that his consciousness is stable, secure and reliable".
What I read from this is:
1) Rafiel is probably not anticipating a harsh response from Immortals of the other Spheres when the artifact is complete, because he does not know of teh fate of the NotS - perhaps not even that it exists. And if he does expect a reaction, he doesn't care as long as the CotS is finished and he may conclude that he is still sane.
2) If the CotS and the NotS have almost the same properties (after all, Radiant Shamans can become Immortals by using the Transcend Life Force spell (p. 15-16)) then we can only assume that the Hierarchs will gather again, put a new curse on the CotS and then magic will drain from Mystara even faster!! Not a great thing for anyone...
This actually does not help my storyline at all
I was hoping to use the CotS to restore magic to Mystara, not drain it further 
Ideas? anyone?
:-) Jesper
I never read the WotI, which is why I didn't know about the Old One etc. (in fact, I never fully understood what the Old Ones are, not having read the golden Immortal boxed set either)
AFAIK, the Old Ones are to the Immortals what the Immortals are to mortals. Other than that I don't think there was much disclosed about them. I'm thinking I may have read they are from the Vortex, but I'm not very sure about that.
I've been thinking about the fact that it says that the NotS can create Immortals of the Sphere of Energy. It never says only Energy AFAIK and I'm looking at from the perspective that perhaps the Immortals are wrong in their assumption. Although they believe these new Immortals are of the Sphere of Energy, something is definately different about them, especially the fact that the WotI says they "were not controlled by the current Immortal hierarchy". I'm also thinking this whole power struggle of hierarchs not having this authority is a huge factor in the lead-up to war.
My explaination of this lack of control by the hierarchs is, of course, these new Radiance Immortals don't belong exclusively to the sphere of Energy, but of a portion of each. I just had another thought hit me! I just glanced down through some more of WotI and Rad says "By studying it, I may discover a whole new kind of magic previously unknown to us - perhaps I may even unlock the secrets of those who went before, theOld Ones". What if the Old Ones are also Immortals of all spheres; mortals gain Immortality through one sphere, then Immortals accend to being an Old One through learning to become one with each of the spheres. Hmmm...
Another thing that I was thinking about was how the spheres were all represented in the Radiance (and the nuclear reaction that causes it). I'm mostly just having a lot of fun exploring this, so here's my thoughts on it so far (all quotes from WotI):
-Matter: there has to be matter in a nuclear reaction, so I'm assuming the same is true of the Radiance. From WotI, "Energy is dynamic and highly active. It seeks to alter and transform things, consuming Matter...", just as in a nuclear reaction. Or better said, it releases the stored energy that is in Matter by altering it even though it doesn't want to release it since "Matter is opposed to Time's efforts to cause change".
-Energy: The most obvious "ingredient" of the Radiance and is the one that allows the NotS to be used with magical results.
-Time: (The toughest one to figure out) It is this Sphere's qualities of change and flow that causes the Matter to change and flow as Energy. But to keep the perfect harmony between the Spheres within the NotS, it also "consumes Energy over time". It also helps Thought (as I'll discuss in a sec) by "recycling the lessons of the past to remind the present". Of Time it is said "it is a creative, shaping force..." and is why Rad said the NotS "shapes energies in ways which no one has ever seen before".
-Thought: This one sounds funny; thought in a nuclear reaction? But this is what Rad said about the NotS, "It is (bold in the WotI book) a source for understanding". "[Thought's] purpose is to understand all of existance". Thought opposes the chaotic excesses of Energy" which is why Rad can say of this NotS, "There is nothing like it in any of our records. By studying it, I may discover a whole new kind of magic...".
-Entropy: :headexplo Ask the Blackmoorians!
This actually does not help my storyline at all. I was hoping to use the CotS to restore magic to Mystara, not drain it further.
I'm almost positive I read something to the effect that someone was trying to use it to restore magic too. I'm thinking it may have been in an almanac (one of the published ones at that). I'll see if I can't find it, but in the meantime, I wouldn't abandon your storyline.