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Erde is a heroic fantasy setting from Troll Lord Games that seems to have started as a home campaign at the end of the 80s.
I got interested in it because I had heard that several members of the Gygax family published stuff for it - Gary Gygax set his Castle Zagyg there, and his sons wrote an adventure module *The Lost City of Gaxmoor*.
The setting itself is simply disgustingly bad, one of the weakest things I've ever seen *weak, but not annoying* - the designers borrowed *HEAVILY* from Oerth, Kalamar and Lankhmar and wanted to be original by using German and French terms as names, but obviously without knowing their exact meaning. So, it's a lot of fun *not planned by the authors* reading it through.
The similarities to Greyhawk, however, seem to have been made with the intention to attract those who liked the older modules. (To start, we have an undead king controlled by the Devil... I really laughed aloud about COBURG THE UNDYING... need to hear more?)
I must confess that I got that *Oooo this is first edition* feeling when I read some articles, for example, about an Order of Knights that wander the world searching for the last unicorns.
But these continous parallels are pure venom to my creativity - nearly everything that happens (or that is in process) was already seen somewhere else in a RPG world.
So, for inventing my own campaigns, I don't feel that I will EVER want to use Erde!
(Although that unicorn thing hasn't left me for days... it's so ZELDA... )
The reason why I play Erde, or Legends of Erde, as the full name is, are the adventures published for it.
The few I bought are of the best I've ever seen for d20, all with the mark of EGG (Ever Greatest Gamedesigner) on them.
I especially recommend Gaxmoor (which is EXACTLY like a campaign in the ruins of castle Blackmoor, IMO).
To sum up, I bought the sourcebook and some adventures and have quite some fun, mainly because my Erde group consists of RPG rookies that don't care about the setting itself.
For others, I strongly recommend using the adventures in an existing Greyhawk campaign. (I also plan to do so.)
Short Review:
1 being worst, 10 being best.
Legends of Erde product line
World: 2
World history: 2
Current historical situation, base for adventures: 2
New d20 gaming supplement: 4
Setting's perspective: 1
Adventures Available (Overall note, different products may vary): 8 to 9
Price: 4 to 5
Interest for Greyhawkers that seek addtional elements for their campaign: 7
Thanks for the update Ivid - I may well have a closer look at what TLG has to offer on the adventure front (I certainly intend to get a copy of Zagyg). Erde does sound painfully cliche-driven.
I recall seeing in a recent post that Gaxmoor was originally penned for Greyhawk, set between Veluna and Bissel, which may be why it feels so typical of the setting.
Thanks for the update Ivid - I may well have a closer look at what TLG has to offer on the adventure front (I certainly intend to get a copy of Zagyg). Erde does sound painfully cliche-driven.
Glad to have been of some service!
From my point of view, Gaxmoor is an altered version from what in the LGG is described as the ruined castle Blackmoor - or at least I personally think you could easily use it as such. In any case, one of the most promissing modules I ever read!
I'd also recommend *The Malady of Kings* and *Dzeebagd*, although they're not nearly as good.
*At the moment TLG is making a sell - out via the web, maybe you want to give it a look. It's quite cheap (if you live in America and don't have to pay the shipping).*
On the subject of unofficial 'hawk style adventures, Dark Druids has been mentioned a few times as a fair substitute (by Rob Kuntz I believe). Have you come across this in your travels, and if so is it worth a spin?
On the subject of unofficial 'hawk style adventures, Dark Druids has been mentioned a few times as a fair substitute (by Rob Kuntz I believe). Have you come across this in your travels, and if so is it worth a spin?
Unfortunately, *Dark Druids* is one of the few Erde products I haven't even glanced at until the moment - I know the title and read some reviews, but nothing more.
Personally; I'd not buy to much of the Erde stuff *other than Gaxmoor and the Gygax stuff*; the other adventures are quite nice, but it's the same if you play them or some web enhancements - nothing too spectacular.
Also, as far as I know, *Dark Druids* was an adventure for Mr Kuntz own world (Kalibruhn?
) that was later oublished for the Erde line. So I doubt it would even fit into that setting.If you are searching something that fits into an Greyhawk campaign, try out this: http://www.goodman-games.com/5005preview.php
The entire Dungeon Crawl Classics line sounds promissing - and you don't have to spent much time converting the stuff!
(I am currently picking this stuff together for a campaign on the Lendore Isles before the war.)
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O, and about Zagyg: Be warned!
This is going to be an eight-part module! The first two are said to be only for basic introduction - no dungeon, just another region on Erde!
*I personally don't know if the Gygax factor will be enough to spend so much money...*
DD is supposedly originally placed in the Gnarley Forest according to Grodog´s
article on the works of kuntz here:
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=125
O nooo!Why did you have to tell this to me...!?
That means that I will have to buy it and the entire Druids - Series as soon as I can...
Farewell Blackmoor d20 book, farewell Warcraft RPG, I'll go for Greyhawk, as there is where my heart remains...
Thank you, Thanael! I'd never would have researched this again! So, probably, it will end up in my adventuring desk!
Seems that Greyhawk is alive and well.....
Unfortunately, *Dark Druids* is one of the few Erde products I haven't even glanced at until the moment - I know the title and read some reviews, but nothing more.
Personally; I'd not buy to much of the Erde stuff *other than Gaxmoor and the Gygax stuff*; the other adventures are quite nice, but it's the same if you play them or some web enhancements - nothing too spectacular.
Also, as far as I know, *Dark Druids* was an adventure for Mr Kuntz own world (Kalibruhn?
If you are searching something that fits into an Greyhawk campaign, try out this: http://www.goodman-games.com/5005preview.php
The entire Dungeon Crawl Classics line sounds promissing - and you don't have to spent much time converting the stuff!
(I am currently picking this stuff together for a campaign on the Lendore Isles before the war.)
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O, and about Zagyg: Be warned!
This is going to be an eight-part module! The first two are said to be only for basic introduction - no dungeon, just another region on Erde!
*I personally don't know if the Gygax factor will be enough to spend so much money...*
That Goodman Games link looks OK, definitely a blast from the past!
Without TLG having released the prices of the books its difficult to know what sort of value they offer. The success of the C&C system may influnce this...., but otherwise I would only be prepared to spend a total of £40 ($70ish) on this and would consider picking and choosing parts from the range.
I will be watching Yggsbrugh closely to see how much *alternative* City of Greyhawks can be mined from it ;)
And its not EGG and Kuntz' fault either. They needed a publisher for their . . . um . . . classic . . . er . . . retro material and were too . . . um . . . brilliant . . . er . . . prickly to be picked up easily by a major d20 player, with the exception of those looking to trade on their names or their . . . um . . . ready made . . . er . . . 20 year old material, who soon learned a lesson and terminated the relationships as gracefully as possible.
It is not even the fault of those souls who think game design ended where it began and have alters to EGG set up in their basements, votive candles and all.
It is Greyhawk fans, desparate for Greyhawk material, who give the Troll Lords musings of Mssrs Gygax and Kuntz any currency. In the presently published Troll Lords material by Gygax and Kuntz you will find precious little that has anything whatsoever to do with Greythawk, even tangentially. This material is not Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. This is not Greyhawk material at all and is not even useful to Greyhawkers if they have followed Greyhawk after 1984. It is just gaming material written by Gygax and Kuntz and Gygax and Kuntz do not equal Greyhawk, even if they or others would reach for such connections to boost populatity and sales. No such connections exist except in the most tortured and attenuated forms.
Xaene becomes Zayne. Ivid becomes Ovar. Playing games like this do not Greyhawk make when the rest of the product could be set in the Forgotten Realms as easily as Greyhawk. It is a sign of Greyhawk fans desparation for new Greyhawk material.
Castle Zagyg is sight unseen. The clack is that it is Castle Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. That is possible. It is more possible that after Castle Greyhawk becomes Castle Zagyg the rest of the material will be generic, as Greyhawk as the next Forgotten Realms accessory. But we will have to wait and see.
Watch out for wooden nickels.
Screed-Diddy
That's more or less what I wanted to express in my review!
It is not that the TLG stuff was bad, although I doubt that C&C will ever be established as an alternative game system.
It's simply that it is the same to Greyhawkers.
While the Sourcebook may provide you with interesting material and adventuring ideas, most of the adventures, regardless of who wrote them and under what circumstances are simple default stuff like you find it on free adventure servers.
Gaxmoor in my opinion, is just the best of the series and really worth buying.
But, you can trust me ;) , it's the same if you play *Dzeebagd* or Matarese's free *Raven* modules.
In short, as a collector of Greyhawk stuff most TLG and PPP products may
be of interest, as a DM who searchs for stuff for his/ her campaigns, I'd say NOT NECESSARILY.
Ah, the Troll Lords. Its not their fault really. They are just good ol country boys living the d20 dream and props to 'em. That they hooked up with EGG and Kuntz is entirely understandable as it has allowed Troll Lords a level of noteriety their own material would have had a hard time garnering on its own.
And its not EGG and Kuntz' fault either. They needed a publisher for their . . . um . . . classic . . . er . . . retro material and were too . . . um . . . brilliant . . . er . . . prickly to be picked up easily by a major d20 player, with the exception of those looking to trade on their names or their . . . um . . . ready made . . . er . . . 20 year old material, who soon learned a lesson and terminated the relationships as gracefully as possible.
It is not even the fault of those souls who think game design ended where it began and have alters to EGG set up in their basements, votive candles and all.
It is Greyhawk fans, desparate for Greyhawk material, who give the Troll Lords musings of Mssrs Gygax and Kuntz any currency. In the presently published Troll Lords material by Gygax and Kuntz you will find precious little that has anything whatsoever to do with Greythawk, even tangentially. This material is not Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. This is not Greyhawk material at all and is not even useful to Greyhawkers if they have followed Greyhawk after 1984. It is just gaming material written by Gygax and Kuntz and Gygax and Kuntz do not equal Greyhawk, even if they or others would reach for such connections to boost populatity and sales. No such connections exist except in the most tortured and attenuated forms.
Xaene becomes Zayne. Ivid becomes Ovar. Playing games like this do not Greyhawk make when the rest of the product could be set in the Forgotten Realms as easily as Greyhawk. It is a sign of Greyhawk fans desparation for new Greyhawk material.
Castle Zagyg is sight unseen. The clack is that it is Castle Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. That is possible. It is more possible that after Castle Greyhawk becomes Castle Zagyg the rest of the material will be generic, as Greyhawk as the next Forgotten Realms accessory. But we will have to wait and see.
Watch out for wooden nickels.
Screed-Diddy
All OK and fair enough. I have not actually seen any of the material that you outlined above to be able to comment objectively. However I would question the point being made regarding the generic-ness of material that could be made to fit FR as well as Greyhawk. Surely that could be levelled at the vast majority of classic and later "Greyhawk" titles. Indeed early "Hawk" material was developped with only minor ties to the setting (eg White Plume Mountain), and could indeed have been made to fit in FR as easily as any home campaign.
Clearly what matters is not who writes the material, but its quality. To that end your warning about wooden nickels indeed has wisdom. Anyone seeking to purchase material on its author / setting tag alone stands to be disappointed. But likewise anyone who seeks to dismiss out of hand the writings of anyone may miss out on some gems for the sake of being sardonic.
What is truly required to raise the Flag for Greyhawk does not rest with the select few - the point I believe you were aluding to - and indeed there would probably be (and has been) considerable and bitter debate about which tastes Greyhawk should cater for, as it is rare that anything released in the past has met with universal approval.
I am prepared to keep an open mind on all material that may enhance my gaming and enjoyment of Greyhawk, branded or otherwise, regardless of author or source. To that end I welcome any reviews on products which may be worth a look.
I am curious as to what you believe the "ideal" way forward for Greyhawk is. I have read some of your posts over the last couple of months, and you certainly seem to have a definite vision......
Clearly what matters is not who writes the material, but its quality. To that end your warning about wooden nickels indeed has wisdom. Anyone seeking to purchase material on its author / setting tag alone stands to be disappointed. But likewise anyone who seeks to dismiss out of hand the writings of anyone may miss out on some gems for the sake of being sardonic.
[snip]
I am curious as to what you believe the "ideal" way forward for Greyhawk is. I have read some of your posts over the last couple of months, and you certainly seem to have a definite vision......
You are exactly correct. The rest is hyperbole to make a point.
As to the last, it is a three prong attack.
First, there is what may be called an official line of attack. I have late news in this line and intend to post full details just as soon as I can compose it.
Second, I have most recently in the OGL thread raised the possibility that there is a ground beyond Canonfire and the Oerth Journal that can be usefully explored and can see Greyhawk fans producing their own fully professional gaming supplements for Greyhawk, every bit as satisfactory as anything bearing the WotC label. It takes vision and will, however. You are correct that I have a definite idea in mind. What I would prefer to do, however, rather than blurting something out, is to see if others might begin to imagine what the possibilities might look like, maybe coming up with ideas that would be different than mine but ever as possible. There can then be an exchange of ideas and/or a meaningful dialog, because people have independently thought about possibilities, rather than myself appearing to attempt to dictate a result. I intend to bring this process along as quickly as events and others will allow.
Third, there is the old school method that worked to give us Greyhawk98. It is basically a demonstration of Greyhawk's potential in terms of design and popularity (sales).
Option 2 is presently my pet project and think I want to move forward whether option 1 pans out or option 3 turns out to be necessary. I think there is a novel opportunity for fans, and not just those prefering Greyhawk, to take their destiny into their own hands as never before has been possible. I like this idea immensely. I hope people will keep open minds and begin to think about what fans might do that they are not now doing to meet their own needs in a fully meaningful manner. You will hear more from me on this, and I hope others as well, yourself included. We do not have to sit back and await Greyhawk handouts.
NS
Second, I have most recently in the OGL thread raised the possibility that there is a ground beyond Canonfire and the Oerth Journal that can be usefully explored and can see Greyhawk fans producing their own fully professional gaming supplements for Greyhawk, every bit as satisfactory as anything bearing the WotC label. It takes vision and will, however. You are correct that I have a definite idea in mind. What I would prefer to do, however, rather than blurting something out, is to see if others might begin to imagine what the possibilities might look like, maybe coming up with ideas that would be different than mine but ever as possible. There can then be an exchange of ideas and/or a meaningful dialog, because people have independently thought about possibilities, rather than myself appearing to attempt to dictate a result. I intend to bring this process along as quickly as events and others will allow. Whilst this raises an interesting topic for discussion, I am far from clear as to the practicalities of developing Greyhawk through the OGL for the reasons already stated on this thread. I will, however maintain an open mind.
Third, there is the old school method that worked to give us Greyhawk98. It is basically a demonstration of Greyhawk's potential in terms of design and popularity (sales).
Certainly difficult given the corporate size that this community would be seeking to influence, but nothings impossible...
To my mind the largest obstacle is to present the Greyhawk community in a unified rather than disfunctional light.
This has been a dream for many a year in many heads. To me it seemed impractical or inadvisable to attempt. Perhaps I lacked the will that Night Screed mentioned. While I may have been overly cautious, I was advised not to risk the Oerth Journal or the standing of "institutions" of the online Greyhawk community by "provoking" Wizards. Some of you may recall that Wizards announced a policy regarding the conversion of old modules to 3e. This policy squelched publication of a nice conversion we had slated and "chilled" my interest in pursuing a project with other fans to produce the aforementioned modules.
(I was particularly interested in producing trilogies, e.g., the exploration of Fireland. I also wanted to produce something that detailed the consolidation of Olman resistance in the Amedio Hook and another piece that brought adventurers into lands of the Touv.)
We certainly have the talent and interest to produce such works. However, we (meaning collectives of GH fans) seem to lack the necessary time, hence the tortuous production schedules of the OJs.
But "that was then, this is now." ?
1. We have Dungeon, a magazine that now at day almost entirely dedicates to Greyhawk, or at least to stuff that Greyhawk players can work with, not to mention its sister mag, Dragon, which also can provide us with interesting aricles from time to time.
2. We have a great internet fan central, canonfire!, that gives the opportunity to everyone to publish articles concerning Greyhawk topics and even large fan modules.
3. We have the Oerth Journal, a publication of fan stuff everyone is free to contribute.
So, for the next few years, I think everyone willing to publish fan stuff will find a way to do so.
Indeed, as far as I can judge, in spite that the Greyhawk license is still in use, WoTC allow us quite a big form of fan - movement. Think only of the postfest on CF: What comes up there could provide an able DM with campaign stuff for years; indeed, with all the stuff currently available out there, I think noone of us will ever again be in the need to buy a book from WoTC again!
What you obviously can't do is sell self - made stuff without the license - but if you have an interesting idea, you can be sure that SOME game company will help you to make a book out of it.
The real problem behind making fan material is TIME. It costs about a year to write, let's say 150 pages of quality and then to reread and correct it, and all that basically for free.
Too, think about that good fan stuff should be a real addition to the setting, and not a variation of what has already been seen.
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In any case, I don't think you're about to bring out something *already known*. Would you share your ideas concerning Fireland with us?
It's now about six months that I started playing in Erde, with a mix of 1e and d20 rules.
So far, it's one of the best campaigns I ever did and I definitely will stick to the setting afterwards.
I really hated the book in the beginning , having bought it at the full price out of a mild temper ('Twas part of my birthday money!) and then seeing *just another lousy fantasy setting*. Dropped it in my bookshelf and hoped I'd forget it soon.
Then, some weeks later, I wanted to start a group with D&D n00bs that were asking for a setting that was content-easy and, because then I secretly disliked one member of that group (an arrogant shadowrun-nerd who left the group shortly after) I suggested Erde - just to scroll down *The Lost City of Gaxmoor* and then leave them.
But now, I am very happy to say that the creativity with which my players started gaming, has warmed my heart and after the end of our current campaign, we plan a sequel involving the old RL module Night of the Walking Dead.
Although I still don't know if I really LIKE the setting or not, I am pretty sure it will accompany me as long as I play D&D. And that's - to stick up with my the topic - is a feeling I haven't had since I first picked up my first D&D books years ago.
The book may have been butcherd by the critics (and by myself), and you, my gentle reader, may not find any fun in it, but I personally like it a LOT.
Which modules have you used that you liked?
I got a bunch of this stuff on sale, including the Codex of Erde hardbound setting book and the poster map.
Poster Map!? Was there a poster map? Where can one get it?!
Which modules have you used that you liked?
I particuarly liked *The Lost City of Gaxmoor* and *Dark Druids*, which was mentioned above.
Also, I found *The Malady of Kings* somewhat useful. (Adventure which few structure, but a plot one can build something upon.)
Dark Druids seemed to have promise. There was another trilogy of modules I got that was pretty bad. It wasn't clear though if it was actually set in Erde or not.
The poster map was included in the sale bundle. I think it's about $6 separately. You might check the web site.
Will do so inmediately.
Some of the earliest adventures (I believe you're referring to the Inza - trilogy) are a bit, well, as if the designers were still training their skills...
Their later efforts, however, were really interesting, even if one did not use the setting regularly.
Without TLG having released the prices of the books its difficult to know what sort of value they offer. The success of the C&C system may influnce this...., but otherwise I would only be prepared to spend a total of £40 ($70ish) on this and would consider picking and choosing parts from the range.
I will be watching Yggsbrugh closely to see how much *alternative* City of Greyhawks can be mined from it ;)
I'm mixed on C&C. I got the C&C PH and it was pretty lackluster IMHO. The book seemed rushed and the number of editing errrors, rules holes and general omissions almost ruins it for me. Especially considering how long they held it up to "get the quality right".
I did get some use from the stripped down combat rules and I am glad it was only $20 or I may have felt a bit ripped off.
As it stands now Monsters and Treasure and the first Castle Zagyg are about 2-3 months overdue but TLG keeps saying its soon and they are just "trying to get the quality right".
All in all I have pretty much lost all interest in C&C and CZ due to the initial offering in this line.
Just my 2cp though.
Although one has to keep in mind that TLG was originally just a group of fans that released their own homebrew at own risk and with few chances for success.
It was the first *fresh* high-fantasy setting that could grasp my interest for a long time. So as I said, my affection might be interely subjective... but it's there...
All in all I have pretty much lost all interest in C&C and CZ due to the initial offering in this line.
I don't think I'll buy C&C products either - that one likes one module doesn't mean one has to collect the entire line. But should they ever release a D20 product again, I'll certainly be after it.
I don't think I'll buy C&C products either - that one likes one module doesn't mean one has to collect the entire line. But should they ever release a D20 product again, I'll certainly be after it.
I may still get CZ but I don't forsee anymore C&C books in my collection.
TLG has also said they are not abandoning D20 either so I'm sure we'll see something in the future.
I understand that TLG is a small group of people and things do take time. But, I also own a couple other of their books (From the Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds series) and the quality of those over the C&C books is amazing. The GFW series IMHO has better editing and art overall and is more complete.
Well, one can't imagine low-budget Gygaxian material, can one?