Interactive Maps:
A couple maps were posted that didn't make some people happy - so a new page is under construction that will contain some bits and pieces of things we've created for our campaign that anyone can use.
http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble
-
No problem . . . I did too much fraggin work to keep them to ourselves . . .
-
I put up a link to this page on Canonfire, fyi.
And I just happen to be sending the pc's in my campaign into Keoland soon. This will come in very handy. Godakin Keep will definitely be on the list of places to visit.
---Cebrion
Shawn
As I am the one who got permission from the person who did the base map of the Keoland region used for the interactive map, I will make the first request that you remove the map from your site. In fact, surfing around, I now see a second map on your site that was originally produced for the LG campaign. You need to remove these maps from your website as they are copyrighted material and you have not posted any indication that you have permission to use them.
Sam Weiss
former Keoland Triad (from the time those maps were produced)
Thank you.
Bill Muench
Keoland Regional Webmaster
http://keoland.living-greyhawk.com
Sorry. Let me know which two you are talking about and I'll remove them asap and make our own versions.
-
1. the interactive map, with the links on the provinces to the descriptions of those provinces (and those descriptions as well)
2. the size comparison map with the outline of New Jersey added in the Yeomanry for reference
Gotchya - consider them deleted.
-
We also used Tomb of the Lizard King, and the Saltmarsh Trilogy, plus a connection to the Night Below campaign because the Yeomanry is using it. And we looted the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan before the Circle could do so for a Core module.
So no, nothing is safe from us. If I could have used a bunch of other stuff from other modules, I would have set that up too.
Nice stuff but I couldn't find a key to the numbered Godakin Keep Map.
Clicking on the numbers on the Godakin Keep map should bring you to a page with a picture of the building and details about it . . . same with surrounding areas. Some locations have a link on the maps to an information page with pictures and other details.
-
Number 11 doesn't seem to be working but I like the illustrations that go with the rest.
Thanks. Very nice.
Number 11 doesn't seem to be working but I like the illustrations that go with the rest.
Fixed it - thanks for the heads up. Added a couple simple Sterich maps to the list because we are doing some adventuring West of Keoland . . .
-
Just stole some of this stuff for my campaign.
The two maps in question are:
1. the interactive map, with the links on the provinces to the descriptions of those provinces (and those descriptions as well)
2. the size comparison map with the outline of New Jersey added in the Yeomanry for reference
Well, as far as I can tell, all of the maps on the site are "borrowed" from other sources, including a scan of the Darlene map and a reposting of Maldin's city of Greyhawk map.
I'm not personally victimized by this sort of shady reuse of material, but as someone who has contributed a few maps to the community (via canonfire), and taken the time to get the permission to use source material (yes, I asked Sam, the POC of the triad at that time, before including LG Keoland specific sites on my sheldomar area maps), it bothers me to see things reused without permission.
Also, posting things like snippets of the Darlene map without permission only tempts WotC to have to lay the smack down on fan sites for not playing fair, so it hurts us all in the long run.
Get permission before you reuse, please.
Well, as far as I can tell, all of the maps on the site are "borrowed" from other sources, including a scan of the Darlene map and a reposting of Maldin's city of Greyhawk map.
The top four maps on the page are there instead of posting the link to it. 3 of the bottom ones I created myself. ALL of them are not burrowed, stolen, swiped, taken, or whatever you want to call it. If there was a problem, the moderators would let me know, and they have not said a thing. I could go ahead and simply post a link to the same damn map to make the few people like you happy, but ya know, you'd still find something to complain about. Why is it when people take the time to help others, there's always someone to throw a fit. Reminds me of those roleplayers who rant and rave when the bard of the group rolls as much damage as his fighter. They stop the game to have the GM check over the bard's character to make sure it's right. It really, really, REALLY kills the mood.
-
I hate it when mom and dad fight.While I find this kind of information invaluable to my gazeteer I also understand that I mustn't disclose the information to others w/o permission. We have to jump through hoops sadly but mustn't let that stop us.
*sigh*
I didn't scan anything. All I did was use Google to find a few maps and instead of posting a link to them, I posted them. If it makes everyone happy, I'll just post the link to it. I've been posting stuff on here for a long time and the moderators haven't said a thing. When I get home, I'll draw my own, not because of initimidation, but for those people outside our campaign who like it. Why is it everyone has to pander to the whiners just to keep the peace?
Go ahead and report whatever you need to. If they have a problem with anything they'll just tell me to get rid of a few things. Then we can go on and you can jump back in the telephone booth and go back to being clark kent.
-
A sorry goes out to the people who have thanked us for the "feel of our campaign", the house rules, keoland stuff, and all that jazz our DM worked on because I'm gonna have to keeping the site to just those of us in the campaign.
That goes for the STAR WARS site too.
-
I've always found that the quickest way to kill something is to start jumping up and down pointing and complining about the proper way to do this and that.
Reminds me of rules lawyers. We all know how 'fun' campaigns are with too many of those creatures involved.
Whatever the case, the powers that be have managed to ruin it for everybody. Legally right or wrong, this is the end result.
You guys can use my Darlene style map as you deem worthy. Just click "Rel Astra" in my sig.
Also, there are 2 minor errors with it. I mispelled "Chathold" and there are 2 "Jalpa"s.
Good luck restructuring. Nice sites.
I mean by bdpenny.
If you want to be callous with property rights, please restrict yourself to your property rights, don't go giving away what is mine. i doubt you'd be all that happy if someone showed up and took your car because I said he could use it when you weren't.
There is a real easy way to share that interactive map. Put a link to the Keoland website on your website. You can even add in a note praising the map, and telling people to go check it out. That way people get to see it, and they get to see who made the map. If that is too difficult for you, then you don't deserve to use the map, let alone copy it.
If I took your car, you are suddenly deprived of it. It's gone, you can't use it, you can't get it back. Someone took it and that is that.
If someone posts a map that is already up for people to see on "official" web sites, than this means that this map is up for others to see on an "unofficial" web site. The only difference here is a vowel and consenant. That's exactly what the entire difference would be between his posting it on his site and just linking to another site as the end result would be the same: people would be able to see the maps. What is more, nobody is deprived of said map's use; its still there for them to see and use.
GM Will was getting nothing from this other than the enjoyment of sharing it with others. No money, no claims of greatness, just sharing what was already readily available. In the end, he followed the law and the issue is closed.
Now, with such a great vicotory in hand, I suppose the powers that be will go and attack all other greyhawk sites that draw in any way from the world of greyhawk (can I even use the name without invoking the wrath of the copyright police?). Canonfire beware! Apparently you do more harm than good for roleplaying in general and greyhawk in specific (though, strangely, wasn't it primarily canonfire that helped to bring greyhawk to the fore at the end of the 2nd edition and with the rise of the third?).
As I said, a link would have done the same thing without violating any "technicality".
Also, you neatly ignore that Canonfire doesn't use any material from WotC verbatim beyond minimal quotes. It is derivative material, but the laws regarding derivative material are different. Making such, and including fair use of IP is perfectly legal. So it is quite unfair to suggest Canonfire!, or any similar website, is doing anything similar. It isn't.
Ok, technically the guy should have obtained permission to post some of the maps but it would have been more helpful to point that out and either give him permission and/or point him in the right direction to obtain permission rather than to insist that he take the maps down straight away (which he agreed to do w/o complaint).
As has been pointed out, fan sites earn no profit and help to keep the WoG alive. Yes, we have to jump through certain hoops but not everybody will realise which hoops they have to jump through immediately. I'd be flattered if somebody wanted to use my maps and it seems silly that we should all be busy drawing up the same info individually. If we pool our resources we can work on new and different projects to expand the WoG at a faster rate.
Labouring on the point just engenders bad feeling on both sides when we all just want to get along
And if people don't want to give permission, just go to Cannonfire and ask some of the map-makers there. Braggi did a gr8 set of maps detailing a lot of canon and non canon information. He might be willing to give permission, or even add your site info to his existing maps if u do a swapsy. :D I only wish I had the brains or the time to help u out myself!!
Braggi did a gr8 set of maps detailing a lot of canon and non canon information. He might be willing to give permission, or even add your site info to his existing maps if u do a swapsy
Speaking of which, I should *hopefully* have these up soon! ;)
HUGE Project!
I think it is some attitudes are a little harsher than they need to be.
My harsh attitude is directed at those who would like to casually give away my property, then call me the bad guy for wanting to protect said property.
Simple courtesy and respect for the property of others is not a difficult thing. An error is one thing. Deliberately not caring is another.
No need to keep the banter up. I took the site completely down and I'm in the process of creating another one with stuff we've created for our campaign that other people can use.
It's at my old address:
http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble
On with the show!
-
P.S. I've already stolen your maps for use in my personal WoG gazeteer, which will just sit on my computer due to copyright and permission issues. After 3 years, I'm only on the letter H, but if I finish in 5 years time or so, maybe I'll go back and redraft everything so that it becomes 'derivative material' instead of scanned and converted to Word, then we can all share.
P.P.S. Don't hold your breath!!
Our Keoland Campaign's Resource page is up and running . . . just click on the intro to enter.
http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble
-
And I have played in LG for almost three years now, I should know.
Sam Weiss
LG Keoland Wonkmeister
Keegan Despee, one of our adventurers, sketched Godakin Keep
(link is the same as above - under Ineractive Maps)
-
Kings being assassinated comes to mind though.
I don't play in the Keoland regional stuff and I am sure some of it is pretty good. But as a whole LG seems to think the more Oerth shattering stuff the better. Which in my opinion I find neither interesting nor believable.
Kings being assassinated comes to mind though.
So you'd find 4 years of caravan duty to be more interesting. Yes, I'm sure that is quite believable as "quests" for 16th level characters. There is no reason that anything they do should have large scale consequences.
And yes, Kings getting assassinated is something that could never really happen.
Tell you what, you come back when you've created a campaign (not campaign setting) that hundreds of people play every month, with plot lines that subsequent campaign managers use for years after you turn it over to them, that has people lining up to add to the material written for it, and then you can tell me what makes for good campaign design.
Samwise, calm down a bit bud. Lass was making general comments about it and he started by saying some of it was good. That last post was kind of a slap in his face, directing a bit of personal investment back at Lass himself, when he didn't really point any fingers at you.
Know what I mean?
I just don't want this thread to get shut down because of things getting too personal - it's happened before.
-
Samwise, calm down a bit bud. Lass was making general comments about it and he started by saying some of it was good.
I'm certainly willing to cut Sam some slack for being passionate and even defensive about his work on the LG Campaign. You can call them "general comments," but even "general" comments about something you have invested yourself in can sting.
Sam's point is a good one. LG is not "official Greyhawk;" it is just one more campaign amongst hundreds or thousands of Greyhawk campaigns. Since it is more public and large-scale, however, people feel they have the right to make comments about people's work. Just as I hope one wouldn't walk into someone's gameroom and disparage how they choose to entertain their players, I hope people would think twice before doing in on message boards.
Another point: how LG progresses is dependant on many factors. Statements like "But as a whole LG seems to think the more Oerth shattering stuff the better" is overly simplistic. LG is an entity incapable of thought--it is an amalgam of players, judges, writers, several layers of adminstrators, and a large corporate entity at the top. The direction of the campaign is designated by innumerable forces.
In Keoland in particular, the development of the plot has been about as slow and measured as it could possibly be, given the structure of the LG campaign, the turnover of administrators, and the desires of the diverse player base. The death of King Kimbertos was something that I had planned for when I was on the Triad, but it was going to be weaved into a larger tapestry of plots. The current Triad handled it differently than I would have, but it has excited the majority of the players, as well as engaged their imaginations in character. The most discussion on the Keoland's LG message board/mailing list (of the non-whining variety) was launched with the death of the king. In terms of a campaign, this event was needed at this particular time to "ratchet up" the significance of other situations, both in Keoland and in other nations as well.
Have there been some events in LG that I don't particularly care for? Absolutely. I've always enjoyed using Greyhawk as the setting for my home campaigns because of my gaming tastes, and certain things in LG just don't appeal. If someone doesn't like that Kimbertos was assassinated, that's fine. But I wouldn't belittle the contributions of others, even generally, unless they asked for my opinion and wanted to discuss it privately.
Regards,
Shawn
As it happens, I am the one who initiated the overwhelming majority of any "wonkiness" that might appear in LG Keoland. Unless someone wants to start naming specifics, any such accusation is indeed a direct attack on me. More, I decided who would replace me when I "retired", and left so much to be finished that any "wonkiness" that has followed is primarily due to me. So any accusations about the work of the people that followed me is an attack on me. And still more, I communicated a great deal with other Triad members in several regions. And while we didn't always agree, we did work together. And while they might not lurk the forums to defend themselves, or may not be able to defend themselves because they must be polite always, I can and will stand up for them.
The LG campaign (and any RPGA campaign for that matter) is not for everyone. The constraints upon it make it distinctly different from home games, and lead to a great deal of stress being placed on the game system. Nor are the plots going to be to everyone's taste. None of the people involved in developing ever expected everyone to love everything. And there are indeed many aspects that are worthy of specific, directed criticism and review. But too many people seem to think they have a license to slam both the campaign and the work that went into it without limit, and often without basic civility, never mind qualifications.
And so I stand up for my work, and I do not apologize for doing so.
The reason I replied at all to this thread was because of the childish "Get my wonderful LG stuff off your personal Greyhawk campaign website at once!" comment. That coupled with the fact that someone decided the authors of every non-setting specific module in the history of Ad&d really wanted them to be placed in Keoland.
Its this sort of attitude that keeps people from wanting to be a part of LG in the first place.
I wasn't upset at the person for putting up the map or the content we created, but I thought he should know what he was doing.
Shawn
Sam, what do you care what Lass says anyway? Really, what does it matter? People are gonna like it or not like it based on what they think, not what some stranger on a message board says.
I don't even know what LG (Living Greyhawk) actually is. I just used "Google" to find some maps we could use for our campaign so the rest of the guys could log in and see what are GM is talking about. I personally think if you put something on the web, it's fair game for anyone who has an internet connection - especially a picture of a map that a group of 8 players is using for their campaign. In my opinion, someone posting a map you've done is nothing but flattery, even if they mislabel something or change wording or whatever. Complaining about a map being used is like the guy who has a wand but doesn't use it because he wants to save charges. Just doesn't make sense to me, at all. I know people put work into those things, I was an art major so I know things can take time . . . I just don't grasp the sensitivity it all started . . . It's a friggin game for cryin outloud . . . and there was no profit made . . . it's a simple game a few people play once and awhile as a break . . . and to threaten to report so and so (I know you didn't) to some copyright board or something . . . I just don't get it. Who gives a rat's rear? I took a two hour lunch and sketched out the innards of Godakin Keep and I could care less who uses it and for what . . . if some guy somewhere wants to use it in his campaign, awesome . . . if some guy posts it and says it sucks, I really don't care . . . It's a picture i fleshed out for our party and decided to post it . . . and by posting it I'm assuming someone's gonna see it and maybe use it . . .
I just never will get the whole issue this thread started . . . and I never will.
I can see why Sam had the reaction . . . I knew it came from personal investment . . . and frustration . . . I just felt like his release was vented towards Lass and I thought it was unfair to unload on Lass when he didn't point fingers at anyone. I doubt he knew Sam's involvement, I didn't even know what LG was, and still don't.
The Godakin Interactive Map is linked below. Just head to Bryan's Campaign and the Interactive Maps page - tap "Godakin Keep" by Keegan Despee.
http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble
-
The whole issue is like people on the same team bickering while the other team continues to pull ahead . . . it's gonna kill roleplaying altogether.
-
And when that happens, the companies that produce the material get "twitchy", and try doing silly things like TSR did back in the bad old days, shutting down every single site out there that even mentions the game. Which is why gamers are happy when companies like WotC come along who don't have insects firmly impacted in their nether regions, and who do allow websites to exist that are filled with fair use derivative material. And so we like to work with them, putting up copyright notices, and noting the claims of the company that owns the original material so we can keep putting up all our stuff for everyone else to admire.
So what's the point?
Ask for permission.
Give credit where it is due.
Acknowledge the owner of the original IP.
Do those three, and everyone will be happy.
That being said, I think it would have been nicer for the Keoland lads to have just said "If you put these copyright notice captions under your maps for legal reasons, you can keep them on your web-site. Otherwise I will have to ask you to please remove them from your website."
That would solve the whole thing, if I'm not mistaken, and everybody is happy. It probably still can, if all parties are amenable(and I don't see why they wouldn't be).
Also, you really should also check out LG Wil. There is a wealth of information available on Greyhawk in general. You may not wish to apply it in areas that you have already detailed in your own campaign(which by the way you have done a fine job on the presentation of them imo), but the other areas have had some very good background information put up by many people. The background information is always of some use, though you may want to ignore the events occuring in the LG regions if they do not suit your campaign. To each his own. It is certainly worth a look.
Wil: Think of the maps as personal property. You obviously had no ill intent when posting them, but I think it would be absurd to think that just because somebody posted something on their website means that any of the billions of people with computers has a right to download it and make it their own, or facillitate such a thing. Ownership of images is still involved. Just because something is on the internet doesn't mean that it is free game, particularly if it is clearly labeled as copyrighted material(as the maps were). To think otherwise is simply ignorant, naieve, or both. I think everyone has at the very least a basic idea of what the word "copyrighted" means.
I didn't claim I created the maps, nor did I take credit for their existance, and I didn't make any money off of it, so I didn't think it would be a problem. If they were maps as part of a module they were selling or to make some profit in any way, I wouldn't have even thought to post them.
Also, you really should also check out LG Wil. There is a wealth of information available on Greyhawk in general. You may not wish to apply it in areas that you have already detailed in your own campaign (which by the way you have done a fine job on the presentation of them imo), but the other areas have had some very good background information put up by many people. The background information is always of some use, though you may want to ignore the events occuring in the LG regions if they do not suit your campaign. To each his own. It is certainly worth a look.
I'm not the DM for our campaign. I'm the GM for our STAR WARS Campaign and put up a site for that so my DM thought it would be cool to have a D&D Campaign site too. I just posted the maps and any info that I thought would be useful to the group that would be "character knowledge." Because of the fuss, I've created private campaign sites that's only for the players and seperate sites for the public.
(I use my STAR WARS site when I GM)
-
Because of the fuss, I've created private campaign sites that's only for the players and seperate sites for the public.
When sharing for the online public, like Sam said, disclaimers and acknowledgments are essential and certainly shouldn't be all that hard to manage, especially if you have no trouble creating two seperate sites for your content. :P