Thanks in advance for ideas!
[cross post on Canonfire]
Zuoken reappeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Did they give a class build? Or a full deity statblock?
)No stat or class. The time when WotC gave you stat blocks for deities is long past. These days, godslaying just isn't an option if you're not Epic :P
His entry in the ExpPsiHB was more complete than in CD. There was also a Fist of Zuoken PrC in that accessory.
However, I'm not sure how / if I'd distinguish devotees of Xan Yae...
Zuoken is a Baklunish deity, mastering the mind and body - sounds to me like a sort of mystic or aesthete. As a Neutral individual he is primarily concerned with balance. With these themes in mind it is possible that he has become aware of the machinations of the Scarlet Brotherhood, whose Suloise racial mastery has concerned him. Now if he began to pry too deeply into what lay behind the organisation (just to satisfy himself that balance would be maintained) who knows what he may have stumbled upon? It is likely that Zuoken spends considerable time traveling the Astral as part of his mystic contemplation. An "accident" that has trapped him there, engineered by something of great power, may have left him helpless in the void.
Cue psionic messages for help etc...
Thanks, Yeoman, that gives me something to work with. Anyone else have an idea or an elaboration on this theme?
Now, this is an idea with some potential! Remember when Wizards published those maps supposed to be dead gods' body parts floating around the astral plane. Maybe Zuoken got ambushed in the Astral and has become a "dying" god in the astral. He is broadcasting telepathic messages to his followers asking for help. That is why his followers are moving "east of the Lortmils" to find him. Maybe, there is gate somewhere in the Eastern Flanaess, are some sort of site acting as a transmitter.
Thanks, Yeoman, that gives me something to work with. Anyone else have an idea or an elaboration on this theme?
Glad to be of some help Rumblebelly
I would be interested to know how you develop this and how it works with your group - I might poach some of your ideas in return ;)
Could you think of a possible link to Vatun? Vatun, the Suel Binders and the FIve Blades of Corrusk figure heavily in this pre-war campaign.
But IMO Vatun was imprisoned much earlier. The brothers Norebo and Dalt are already searching for him IIRC.
Note also that it is not sure if the five blades of corusk really can help freeing Vatun, or if this also is a lie constructed by Iuz.
Just found this very nice article by Rip van Wormer on Vatun`s story.
http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/vacuum.html
(under the entry for Wenta)
So, the group has this "false" binder sword right now. They probably will eventually find the other 4, but they will get blown to the four corners of Oerth when Iuz is summoned and the Greyhawk wars begin. In the meantime, though, they have some time to kill (the Campaign Year is 576 CY) so a trip to the astral plane to help the Monk free Zuoken might be in order.
Just some campaign background here.
STill thinking of a connection that fits the plans of the campaign....
Regarding Zuoken's unknown whereabouts, to me it makes sense for Zuoken to have been imprisoned originally by Zagig Yragerne, but I like very much the idea that he has partially transcended his prison through the practice of astral projection. Unfortunately, it seems that Zuoken was unable to reach the safety of his home plane. Perhaps he was captured by githyanki, or had his silver cord cut by one of their infamous silver swords. What happens when a god's silver cord is severed?
Is the god's body rotting in the dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk? Do shreds of his slashed psyche flutter on the astral winds? Why doesn't Xan Yae act to help her best student and onetime lover?
Maybe Xan Yae has sent visions to her clerics, who have provided direction to the devotees of Zuoken, who no longer wield magic of faith but instead practice primarily as monks with an increasing number developing psionic powers (via the psion class or the Fist of Zuoken prestige class; some might even practice as Uncarnates)?
I especially like the idea of the Githyanki cutting a god's silver cord! Would a god even have or need a silver cord? Or would that be something only its incarnate avatar/physical form would need?
According to 1&2es, the demi-god Zuoken doesn't have the power to manifest even a single avatar. I don't know how 3e handles this power, but I have learned that 3e has formalized a lesser manifestation; I hear they're called aspects.
Putting aside the game rules, if Zagig Yragerne was able to capture Zuoken, the demi-god, that would be truly amazing. If the Mad Archmage only captured an aspect of Zuoken, then the demi-god's devotees should retain the ability to cast spells, etc.
Perhaps Zuoken was actually captured but the prison did not preclude astral projection? When Robilar sundered the prison, perhaps not all of the gods/avatars/aspects were freed? Alternatively, perhaps Zuoken's "body" remained in the dungeon because his "mind" was severed from it when the (imagined) silver sword cut his cord, or if you don't like bringing in the githyanki because of the operation of some Astral or Outer Planar prison (Carceri anyone?) in which Zuoken's astral projection was captured (again, not his day, eh?)?
Relatedly, a fan has posted either one or two modules at Canonfire regarding an adventure that features Zuoken's imprisonment and the Demi-plane of Shadow.
Thanks!
I have more questions, but I'm at work and don't have time to word them correctly. More later.
Anyway, if anyone has other ideas or elaborations on the ones presented, I'd love to hear them.
Zagyg, for whatever mad reason, trapped 9 demi-gods in the dungeon of Castle Greyhawk. Zuoken was one of them. While imprisoned, Zuoken astrally projected himself and left his body in the Dungeon. Powerful mystics of the Scarlet Brotherhood discovered Zuoken in the Astral plane and devised a way to trap him there.
However, Zuoken's body still remains in the dungeons of CGH. Perhaps, Zagyg trapped the nine demi-gods there to provide a Spellpool for his various traps and other oddities down there. We all know CGH is a busy place, magically speaking. When Robilar set most of the demi-gods free, he greatly diminished the magic power available for the various effects in the dungeon. However, a lot of them still work due to Zuoken's trapped body; but his followers have not been able to locate him down there, because his psyche has gone elsewhere.
How does that sound for a story so far? I know it doesn't include the Vatun angle, but I am willing to just let that be a red-herring for a story that makes much more sense.
Regarding Lassiviren's mention of spellpool, I think he's referencing Complete Arcane, which I've not yet bought. Mention of the spellpool reminds me of the Lonely Tower in Keoland and the order of the Silent Ones. The "cenotaph" beneath the tower seems like a good place on Oerth to site a spellpool, which could certainly involve a demi(?)-god. Perhaps the Suel bound the spirit of the Sheldomar River?
If so, this act likely makes the Silent Ones enemies of the priestesses of Ehlonna and their many allies...
Probably the Ghost Tower of Inverness and White Plume Mountain had some spell-pool type of thing going on. Hell, maybe Telchur imprisoned Vatun (in my campaign a half-mortal son of Norebo who led the Houses of Pursuit to the North and became a full-fledged deity later) so that some of his favored worshippers could have a spell-pool all their very own.
Could anyone think of a good place for that?
Hmmm...I'm starting to see a way that Vatun and Zuoken could be connected after all: Nuclear Power!
The 3e "Spellpool" of the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC (from Complete Arcane) is built alongside similar principles, though less difficult to use.
The Spellcrux was an artifact, constructed using the "Arcane Primal", the true language of magic. The way 3e Spellpools are described, you would think they can be mass-manufactured (which I dislike a lot because it takes away the "special" feel there was to it).
I could imagine ONE demi-god being bound to ONE spellpool by an epic-level individual like Zagyg (more likely by several acting in concert) but going from there to a dozen demi-gods bound throughout the Flanaess is not only unwise, it's dangerous.
For one thing, demi-gods often have a divine sponsor who wouldn't look kindly on anyone depriving him/her of his/her divine "cohort". Try messing with Zagyg for instance and methink Boccob will pay your spellpool a visit that you won't like...
For another, if it became so "easy" to bound demi-gods, Greyhawk would stop being Greyhawk and become - sorry to Ed's fans - the Forgotten Realms.
Of course, it's your campaign. If it works, more power to you. But as far as I am concerned, that's too big a step in a direction I don't much care for if some logic must be maintained to the setting.
However, I don't think that Stalman Klim, aka Modrammo (sp?), et. al. have been characterized in ways that suggest they are stealing power from an earth-bound demi-god. Following the suggestions of a fan on GreyTalk, Peter Ouimette, I prefer to characterize the Earth Dragon as a greater nature spirit, a monster first introduced by 1e's Oriental Adventures (and also included in the 3e book).
Using Complete Divine, I wonder whether the shaman or shugenja alternative character classes might be useful to represent the "clerics" of the Earth Dragon as distinctive from "regular" ones.
MTG
PS - If you couldn't find the fan module I mentioned a while ago, I tracked down one of its parts. The Oracle of Fate was authored by MerricB, a fan from Australia. The module is available at http://www.geocities.com/merricb/dndorac.htm
So, if the precedent has been established that the possibility exists of even one mortal or demi-god being able to bind another demi-god, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that others would want to do the same thing. How impossible did the atom bomb seem until we blew the hell out of Hiroshima to other nations?
Besides, I suggested that it wasn't a mortal that bound Vatun, but Telchur, a god. And in my campaign the help that Vatun received from his patrion, i.e., Norebo, is that Norebo was behind the creation of the Five Blades of Corrusk in order to set Vatun free in the future. Why? Maybe Norebo couldn't stand up directly to Telchur's power, so he chose a more subtle and long-term plan (albeit one that eventually backfires due to Iuz's evil cunning).
As regards the Great Kingdom and other areas: I recall an article somewhere about various lost gods. Maybe some of these lost gods of the Oeridians were bound by Hextor to the Malachite Throne in exchange for the Overking's commitment to making Hextor's the national religion? There are lots of angles from which one could look at this possibility.
And Zuoken? When Brotherhood agents found his psyche adrift in the astral, well, they didn't turn him into spell pool, they just bound his psyche. His material body was already providing the spell pool that powers all the magical do-hickies beneath castle Greyhawk.
I admit that perhaps the Earth Dragon might not be a good candidate for binding. Just throwing out some suggestions.
Vatun is a God of the Northern Barbarians, Cold, Winter etc. Clearly his remit would not have fitted with the Suel (Cold Winter in the Southern lands?) and indeed the LLG alludes to this by stating that he is not worshipped by the Suel Imperium. So presumably the Suel Barbarians 'adopted' him following their sojurn to the outer extremities of the North.
Now it is not inconceivable that the Suel emigrating North were already beginning to waver in their worship of their Gods when settling in the inhospitable environment, where their pantheon were becoming perceived as irrelevant. This would not have sat well with the traditional faction of the Suel who still formented Imperialist hopes, which would later come together in the guise of the Scarlet Brotherhood.......
In the face of losing their bretheren to the Worship of Telchur (certainly the most relevant of dieties of the region), the Imperialists petitioned Llerg to take the form of Vatun and appear to the peoples of the frozen land. Llerg was only too pleased to take this forward, having already seen his priesthood wilt in the face of competition of Telchur (admittedly this is an unusually co-operative step from Llerg, but he was the main beneficiary....).
As Vatun made appearances to the Barbarians and fostered their support, he made a masterstroke ruse with Dalt and spread word that Vatun had been waylaid by priests of Telchur, forever earning the emnity of that God among the Barbarians, and ensuring their ever loyal worship. Members of the Suel Imperialsits looked on this from afar and were pleased. Their bretheren were once more in the fold.... Now this could be turned to their advantage.
And so began the legend of The Five Blades. the soon-to-be Scarlet Brotherhood placed this myth among the tribes of Northerners, intending to use it to their advantage to 1) gain support in searching for artifacts of use to them and their purpose and 2) use the terrible force that the Barbarians could muster to create havoc in the flanness at a time of their chosing..
And so Zuoken, delving into the plots of the SB came across this fiction, and understanding the true machinations of the Brotherhood (releasing Tharizdun?, or invoking another apocolypse upon the Bakluni?) sought to unmask this conspiracy, and was struck down.
Was it pure chance that in his hour of desperation, Zuoken's struggle and true purpose was perceived by a fellow prisoner and 'guest' of Zagyg, none other than Iuz.
Using the schemes of the Scarlet Brotherhood against the flanness, he subverted the plot to his own end, knowing that Llerg ultimately cared little about the ensuing chaos on Oerth.
Just a thought.
Thanks!
Do folks have ideas about when Vatun was captured? Perhaps Telchur lured him to Fireland -- where Belial and/or Mephistopheles might have helped capture him? Maybe Vatun was tricked into this trap, which he believed was going to be the site of his ascension?
Maybe Telchur wasn't involved, and one of the mentioned arch-devils laid the blame on the Oeridian god?
Do folks have ideas about when Vatun was captured?
Vatun was listed as having been captured at about the time of The Battle Of A Fortnights Length (LGG) which would be shortly before year 1 CY
In my campaign, Zuoken was indeed freed from his imprisonment in Castle Greyhawk. Unfortunately, he was recaptured almost immediately by agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood, who imprisoned him on the Plane of Shadow, in an area known as the Oubliette (it was close to the Negative Energy Plane, and a perfect place to keep deities managable).
He who asked too much was betrayed,
And by the Hand of Magic was caught.
Released by the foolish twain,
Was trapped again by the Order of Blood.
Seek therefore between Light and Dark;
In that land where Shadows are real.
In the Fortress of the Enemy,
There you will find Perfection's Hand.
That riddle, gained from the Oracle of Istus led the PCs in my campaign to the Oubliette and the rescue of Zuoken - with some help from the Cat Lord.
It should also be understood that, in my campaign, Zuoken tricked Istus into revealing too much of the future to him, which Zuoken then wrote down in a book of prophecy. Key in that book were clues to defeating both Vecna and the Scarlet Brotherhood, which explains why the Scarlet Brotherhood worked so hard to keep Zuoken out of the picture - also, Istus' rage towards Zuoken made him an easier target.
With the rescue of Zuoken by the PCs in my campaign, and the abating of Istus' fury, Zuoken has resumed his place as Xan-Yae's servant.
Vecna has been defeated (he was trying to take over the world - he's now "just" a god), and the Scarlet Brotherhood plotline will shortly be reactivated in my Great Kingdom campaign.
One of these days I'll get around to writing up "Prisoner in Twilight" which describes the environs of the Oubliette.
Cheers!
I shall have to rethink the whole Zuoken angle again, IMC.
Thanks, Merric! I downloaded your module and will take a look at it. I like the motive you have provided for the Scarlet Brotherhood imprisoning Zuoken, immediately after his release. What was the book of prophecy called?
The Book of Zuoken, of course!
I'm trying to edit "Oracle" into a 3.5e form and expand on a few areas that were lightly touched upon before - hopefully I'll have something for you by the end of the week.
...and "Prisoner" is something I really should finish writing up. 3.5e (with its addition of the planar rules to the SRD) made it possible.
Cheers!