Has anybody put together the histories of the dwarves, high elves, dark elves, and giant races with the outer planes that are discussed in the Northern Reaches gaz? I know we had a discussion about the "dark elves" here before but didn't really get to this point.
Hmm...the 9 worlds of Norse Mythology on page 62/63 of Gaz 7 are optional and not canon, but since DM was kind enough to post the Immortal patrons of the giants a while back here is one suggestion:
Asgard:
The outer plane which is home to Odin and Thor and Loki is an occational visitor. Here, Odin gathers the souls of brave warriors in Valhalla.
Vanaheim
This outer plane is the home of Frey and Freya and perhaps other Vanir immortals if DM creates some? It is entirely likely that Frey and Freya gather the souls of their loyal followers here instead of letting them go to Hel.
Muspelheim
This is the home plane of Surt, immortal patron of the fire giants. Since giants also die sometimes, he gathers the mightiest of them this plane. A bad guy in life, Loki has corrupted or tricked Surt into further evil and he plans to ride across the Rainbow to Valhalla at Ragnerok.
Niflheim
Since Hel is the patron immortal of the frost giants and her own realm, Hel, is located beneath Niflheim, it seems appropriate that she gathers the souls of the most evil frost giants in this world.
Alfheim
This is the outer plane that is home to the High Elves and also to Ilsundal, the greatest of High elf immortals. Or perhaps Ordana, creator of the elf race?
Svartalfheim
We don't know much about the Dark Elves, but we can assume that they were probably High Elves corrupted by some dark immortal. (Atzanteotl??) Extremely few Dark Elves exist in Mystara today (hiding in Shadowdeep??) but the souls of those who were not bound in hidious Modrigswerg items are living their evil after-life in Svartalfheim.
Jotunheim
This is the outer plane that is home to numerous giants. Perhaps they migrated here at the fall of their mighty empires eons ago? It could also be the home of Terra, patroness of the mountain giants?
Swergheim
The home plane of Kagyar and the souls of brave dwarves - both Modrigswerg, Rockborn and Kogolor dwarves. Perhaps also the home of Garal Glitterloade and the souls of gnomes?
Midgard
Not too sure about this one. Perhaps a parallel world to Laterre where the d'Ambrevilles and McGregors hail from?
Yggdrasill, the World Ash
In my opinion, this should be the home plane of the Three Norns, Urd, Verthandi and Skuld. If I remember correctly, they have a cave at the roots of the Ash where they weave the thread of life for every mortal. Some threads are long, others short, some strong, others thin.
:-) Jesper
Alfheim
This is the outer plane that is home to the High Elves and also to Ilsundal, the greatest of High elf immortals. Or perhaps Ordana, creator of the elf race?
The High elves could be Gentle Elves or even Alfar (Sidhe)?
:-) Jesper
Some of the nine worlds mentioned in GAZ7 are incorrect (as much as I love Ken Rolston's work, this time he made a blunder) ;)
Swergheim should be renamed Nidavellir (real world Norse name for the world of dwarves). Swergheim doesn't sound right even with proper German grammar, since it's a composition of Zwerg (dwarf) and heim (home), but Swergheim doesn't exist as it is written ;)
Also, Niflheim is merely a region of Helheim, so Hel's place should be renamed Helheim.
This way the Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil are:
1st Tier: Asgard, Vanaheim, Alfheim
2nd Tier: Midgard (or Mannaheim), Nidavellir, Jotunheim, Svartalfheim
3rd Tier: Muspelheim, Helheim
This according to the Norse mythos. For Mystara, I'd put Svartalfheim on the 3rd Tier of Yggdrasill, thus giving it a "darker" and "lower" connotation (the third tier realms are regarded by Vikings as unpleasant and definitely evil).
In Norse mythology, the terms "dwarf" "dark or black elf" and "troll" are often confused with one another and used in place of one another. For example, legends say that dwarves would turn into stone if exposed to sunlight, but then we find the same reference with trolls (who are giant-kin, also called Ettins) and even with dark elves (dokkalfar). This clearly makes some confusion, but luckily we don't have this confusion in Mystara. So Nidavellir is clearly the realm of dwarves, while Svartalfheim is the realm of dark elves (whatever these dark elves may be.. i'll get to this in due time).
Also, in Norse mythology the term Alfar and Vanir are often interchangable. Note that Freyr (a Vanir god) was also referred as King of Elves, and sometimes the vanirs are even said to be living in Alfheim.
Let's start with the things we DO know about:
Alfheim: home of the liosalfar (light elves), symbol of purity, wisdom and beauty. Their king is Freyr and they represent nature's bounty, the fairy realm and all that's tied to Spring.
Asgard: home of the Aesir, an island on the bubbling river that stems from Hvergelmir. This island can be reached only through the Bifrost (Rainbow Bridge) guarded by Heimdall and is protected by huge walls. Here come the souls of those who die honorably and valiantly, amassing in Valhalla and Sessrumnir to train and feast until Ragnarok comes. Here the final battle of Ragnarok will be fought between giants and Hel's dead souls on one side, and Aesir and Vanir on the other one.
Vanaheim: home of the Vanir, this place is a marvelous yet mysterious natural paradise. We only know from legends that Njord had its underwater hall (Noatun) in this place, but we don't know anything else. Note that Freya's palace, Sessrumnir and Folkvang, are in fact located in Asgard, since she was living there.
Midgard: the Middle Earth of the Vikings, representing Scandinavia and the Baltic region. It's an island surrounded by a deep sea where the World Serpent Jormungand swims. At Ragnarok he will come ashore to wreak havoc and swallow everything.
Jotunheim: land of the giants, east of Midgard and technically still a part of Midgard, only separated from the human lands by a great mountain range. Here the breed of Jotun (Ymir) dwells.
Nidavellir: home of the dwarves, creatures that were born from the corpse of the giant Ymir as molds. They live in dark caves and are master craftsmen, often malicious and greedy.
Svartalfheim: home of the mysterious dark elves (dokkalfar), these never venture out of their holes.
Muspelheim: one of the two primordial region of the universe, this inferno of fire and molten rock is ruled by Surt and home of the fire giants. It's divided from Niflheim (the other primordial region) by a great chams called Ginnungagap.
Helheim: the Reign of the Dead, it's composed of two regions. Niflheim (House of the Mists) is the outer part, a chilly foggy desert blasted by ice winds and blizzard. Beyond it, under its frozen surface, lies Helgardh, the Realm of the Dead ruled by Hel, where all the shadows of people who died without honor dwell. The entrance to Helheim is guarded by the beast Garm, and on the isle of Nastrond (Corpse Strand) the most evil and vilest of sinners are punished for their crimes. Here is also Naglfar, the ship made with the nails of the dead, which will sail over Hvergelmir up to Asgard when the time of Ragnarok will come, manned by the souls of Hel and with Loki at the helm.
So these are the Nine Realms of Yggdrasil, which in turn is an Ur-Tree that comprises all of them and has its three roots beginning in each tier (one in Asgard, one in Midgard/Jotunheim and one in Niflheim).
[Stay tuned! More to come later... :D]
1. the Nine Worlds are outerplanes with the exception of Midgard, which is in fact the Known World.
2. The Nine Worlds are all part of Mystara. Midgard is the Northern Reaches, Nidavellir is Rockhome (Nidavellir being Rockhome's name in Heldann), Alfheim is (you guessed it right) Alfheim, Svartalfheim is a region underground (home of the Shadow Elves?), Jotunheim is the region between Northern Reaches and Nidavellir (the mountain ranges west and south of the Reaches), Helheim is a region in deep north where ice abunds and frost giants dwell, while Muspelheim must be the area around the Arch of Fire. Asgard is then probably a region located over the clouds, while Vanaheim is an island in the sea (Isle of Dawn?) or in the sky.
3. The second Tier is the Known World, the first Tier is the Outer Planes, while the third Tier is the Elemental planes + the Ethereal.
4. The first and third Tiers are Outer PLanes, while the Second Tier regions can be found in the Known World (on Mystara)
We don't necessarily have to choose one: these are popular beliefs among the scholars of the Uppsala College in Norrvik. ;)
Now personally I'd go with this origin of the various races in the Antalian Mythology (a revisited version of the Norse mythos):
Aesir are all children of Odin and Frigg (a vanir)
Vanir are children of Vanir forefathers (Erda + Nooga/Njord/Protius) who came out from Audhumla's (Ur-Cow) body when she died.
Elves are children of Aesir + Vanir and their king is Tiuz (Ilsundal as portrayed in Savage Coast, not to be confused with Tyr in Mystara, altho in RW it's the same deity)
Dwarves are derived from molds on Jotun's corpse
Dark elves are fallen elves & dwarves who chose to abandon Nidavellir and Alfheim to follow Loki's words
Giants are children of Jotun
Hel comes from Audhumla's last breath, frozen in Niflheim's cold.
Loki is Odin's and Hel's progeny.
More on this when I will have put everything down in a logical order ;)
The realms you describe make sense according to the Myths, but I also like the idea I stole from Mystaros for creating a separate home plane for each Immortal based on the regions within Aasgard.
Ljosalfar and Svartalfar should be exalted (OD&D) or Celestial/Infernal (3E) creatures IMO. The Dwarves of Nidavellir/Svergheim probably should be Celestial Dwarves too.
More on this when I will have put everything down in a logical order ;)
Interesting! I'm glad I'm not the only one to have thought about this before. ;)
This also is connected with a question I've thought about for some time: is the Rainbow Bridge (a plane of existance if I understand correctly) that was used by the elves of Alfhiem the some as the Northmen's Rainbow Bridge? It certainly could be as I've seen the discussions here. Mind you, I also image it would be a very finite plane to be refered to as a "bridge", would it not?
Looking forward to talking about all this once DM gives us the "more"!
(just HAD to use this smiley)Mind you, I also image it would be a very finite plane to be refered to as a "bridge", would it not?
If I remember CM8 correctly, the Rainbow is more or less a dungeon of seven "rooms" or settings, one after another, corresponding to the seven colours of the rainbow - and then you exit on the other side.
:-) Jesper
I doubt the Antalians had knowledge of this magical phenomenon, so the Rainbow Bridge of CM7 should not be confused with Bifrost itself.
In a Mystaran cosmology, we could hypothesize that is Yggdrasil is a plane onto itself, Bifrost is an outer plane attache to its uppermost branch, which in turn leads to Asgard. You cannot reach Asgard unless you travel through Bifrost, and that's it.
I find the idea of having all the different realms of Norse mythology on Mystara quite fascinating, but I agree that most of them should be outer planes.
If we consider Yggdrasil a single outer plane with many gates to all these realms, then we should have Midgard definitely on Mystara (after all the Northmen refer to Midgard as THEIR land!), and all other planes as Outer Planes connected to Yggdrasil.
Alfheim should be renamed Liosalfheim as Haavard suggested, to avoid confusion with Mystara Alfheim.
Bot light and dark elves are probably creation of Odin and Hel, used to populate these realms to fit in the legends (or maybe Liosalfheim was created by Ilsundal and Svartalfheim by Atzanteotl...)
Nidavellir as Kagyar's paradise is also a good idea.
I think Marco's summary makes alot of sense. I don't like the idea of Mystaran norsemen referring to Mystara as Midgard. They should use the name Mystara like the rest IMO. Midgard could instead be the norsemen's name for LaTerre, and perhaps one could travel to that dimension through Yggdrasil?
I agree that Bifrost should not be identical to the rainbow used by the elves. That Rainbow Bridge could be referred to as the Sylvan Rainbow. In my List of Outer and Inner Planes I listed Ygdrasil as "Special, Interplanar/Interdimensional nexus", and Bifrost should probably be the same, if it is not indeed the same plane.
IMC The liosalfar were created by Odin after making a deal with Ordana who at that time was the patron of the elves. The Svartalfar are "fallen" liosalfar, and if Loki wasn't resposible for their creating, he is definately their patron now.
I like the idea of Nidavellir being Kagyar's domain. Perhaps it is simply the name norsemen use for Kagyar's realm Gardarak (the name I used for it in my planes writeup, shamelessly stolen from Mystaros.)
Håvard
When I grew up as a boy, I loved Viking tales and read a lot of them - both Iceland sagas and Norse Mythology. It is true that many of the stories differ - and as DM pointed out somewhere, most were written centuries later by Christian monks - but from most stories I always got the impression that:
1) Ygdrassill is not a plane in itself, nor a gateway. It is a huge ash tree standing on a plain in front of Valhalla. The dragon Nidhug / Nidhog is gnawing at its roots, which is where the Three Norns have their cave. Its branches are so thick that deer live their entire lives in its tree-top.
2) Scattered across the plain are the farmsteads and houses of the various Vanir and Aesir. Among them is Bilskirner, the House of Thor, which has more than 800 rooms and is the largest house anywhere. Nearby is also Mimer's Well of Wisdom and Freya's house Folkvang.
3) Midgard / Middle Earth / Midgård is the world of mortals and is connected to Asgard via the rainbow Bifrost, which Loki built with a little help from Odin. One end of Bifrost is anchored at the edge of Asgard, where the guardian god Heimdal watches it. He can see anywhere and hear the grass grow and is the ultimate Watcher. He is also the Sun God. When Ragnarok comes, Surt and the Firegiants will ride across Bífrost, which will collapse under their weight. Heimdal will then sound his magical horn to announce the ending of the world and all will come out and fight. Heimdal, by the way, has 9 mothers - all of them Jotun giants.
4) The other end of Bifrost is somewhere in Midgard, but it very rarely stays in one place for very long. Any mortal who finds it though, can walk across it to Asgard and meet Heimdal.
5) Beyond Midgard and Asgard is what in Danish is called Udgård ("Outgard") or Jotunheim. It is the home of the giants. In D&D they are probably Titans as most of them are much more clever and better spellcasters than mere giants in the D&D game.
Oh boy! I am feeling an urge to sit down and read all of those wonderful books again! :whatsthis
:-) Jesper
First of all, Yggdrasil is the World Tree, a gigantic ash tree that comprises ALL OF THE NINE WORLDS.
It has 3 main roots which start at the 3 levels (tiers) where the Nine Worlds are located: one starts above the Hvergelmir (Roaring Cauldron, Well of the Elivagar, the Eleven Rivers of Hel) in Helheim; one starts from Mimir's Well in Midgard (actually in Jotunheim); the third one lies near Urd's Well in Asgard (here is where the Norns dwell and spin the thread of gods' and men's fate).
Nidhogg is the dragon that gnaws at the root in Helheim, as you recounted.
Asgard is an island with high walls built all around which floats on the Hvergelmir's rivers (which travel up from Hel to Asgard) and can be entered only by crossing Bifrost, a rainbow made of water, air and fire, which connects Midgard with Asgard (located on the higher branches of Yggdrasil).
East of Asgard lies Vanaheim, a broad land with lush grasslands, ancient forests and deep blue seas, while west of Asgard you can find the forests and glades of beautiful Alfheim, home of eternal spring and the light elves.
Down in the middle level branches of Yggdrasil you find Midgard, a whole continent encroached by an ocean where the World Serpent Jormungand swims. Midgard is men's world, but it borders Jotunheim (on the east) and Nidavellir (on the west) as well as Svartalfheim (south). Basically all these 4 realms are part of the same continent called Midgard.
Finally on the third level of Yggdrasil you find Muspelheim (home of Surt and fire giants) and Helheim (where Niflheim and Hel, Kingdom of the Dead, are located), separated by Ginnungagap (the Great Primordial Chasm). In Niflheim lies also Nastrond, an isle where the most evil and sinful are punished by being constrained in a hall filled with venom-dripping snakes. All other souls wander about Helheim waiting for Ragnarok, while building Naglfar (the ship which will sail up to Asgard with Loki at its helm) with the nails of the dead.
It is indeed a strange tree, with roots beginning both in its top, bottom and central parts
In Asgard you can find the halls of ALL of the Aesir (and btw, the 800 doors hall is not Bliskirnir, but rather Valhalla ;) ) plus Volkvang (Freyja's place where Sessrumnir, her hall, is located).
Other interesting places are the Isle of Black Sorrow where Fenris (and later Loki) is chained, buried under Midgard; Gnipahellir, the cave where Garm waits guarding Hel's entrance; the Ironwood, where the giantess-hag Angrboda lives and sires his deformed children (trolls, hags and giants).
Hope that helps ;)
AftI can safely tell you that many of the things you remembered are not correct, Spellweaver.. sorry :P ;)
Or the books did not agree with your sources :P
(and btw, the 800 doors hall is not Bliskirnir, but rather Valhalla ;) )
It is probably right that Valhalla has a hall with 800 doors (and a roof of golden shields) but I was talking about Bilskirner being the house anywhere with the most rooms however. Not doors. People have gotten lost in Thor's house and not been found until years after...
:-) Jesper
Or the books did not agree with your sources :P
In the case of Yggdrasill, I think I've read both that it was a tree standing in Aasgard, and that it was a tree encompassing all of the worlds. Mythology doesn't always make sense from a logical point of view :P
It is probably right that Valhalla has a hall with 800 doors (and a roof of golden shields) but I was talking about Bilskirner being the house anywhere with the most rooms however. Not doors. People have gotten lost in Thor's house and not been found until years after...
Doing a quick search on the internet, I found a source saying Thor's house had 640 rooms. Not sure about Valhalla.
If any of you have a chance to read a book called 'One eyed' by Tor
That being the case, what if the planes were also known by different names based on culture?
Just as an example:
Perhaps when an ancient Skald of the Northern Reaches saw the Ethereal Plane for the first time, the tangles of massive wormholes winding off in every direction as far as the eye could see reminded him of the root system of an impossibly large tree … uncounted generations later, the general populace still believes that a vast tree named Ydrassil reaches its branches and roots into all places in the multiverse …
http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#A
Check it out, because it's got 64 pages full of terms that are part of the Norse and Teutonic mythologies, not just the name of gods and places, but also of habits, rituals, important characters (like volvas) and so on.
I own many encyclopedias on myths and legends, but I dare say this is the most comprehensive resort I've ever had the fortune of finding for Norse mythology
[As you may have understood, I was DEEPLY impressed by this site :D :P]